I never understand the caf reaction to Berbatov, it's ridiculous really.
I can't believe there's still talk of selling him in January....
I can't believe there's still talk of selling him in January....
Bad Berba's Back
- Thread starter Carl
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Selling him in January would be a mistake. But then signing him in the first place has been a mistake. Would prefer we cut our losses in the summer and go with Kiko, Welbeck, Chico, Rooney next year.
Then the money we get from him could be pushed into midfield targets.
Oh every time he isn't scoring the same thing appears. It's amazing how many people don't notice/ignore his overall play and contribution to our game.
Mind you...Rooney's scoring even less, same number of goals as Evra and none from open play....so perhaps we should sell him in January too. Based on their general contribution on the pitch though I'd prefer to keep Berba any day.
I don’t think anyone agrees that he should be sold in Jan, it was just in response to paper shite.
At the end of the season though is where a dilemma for many arises. Do the club offer a new contract, allow him to remain for one last season after this and go for free or sell the player in the summer.
And if he ends up having a 3rd consecutive below par season I know what I would prefer. I don’t see anything wrong with thinking that way either.
Give it over. Rooney scored 30+ goals last year, his desire and hunger on the pitch motivates players. Meanwhile Berbatovs been at the club for 2 and a half seasons and he's still not been close to consitient. For a senior player that isn't good enough.
He had his chance last season when Rooney was injured to step up and become the main man. He blew it, that says it all. Doesn't have the attitude to be successful here and i'd rather we sell him and let our youngsters have a shot instead and push the cash into an area of the pitch where we need major investment.
In fairness RedSky, you compare Berbatov to Wayne when he had his best season ever. When has he showed anywhere near that kind of consistency? Usually Wayne has longer baron runs then Berbatov's at the moment.
Obviously the difference is Wayne would have been much younger at the time, but I'm only responding to the comparison between Rooney's best ever season to Berbatov's second. I think that's a tad harsh.
Plus it is massively overlooked what he offers the team when it's not goals. He does far more then he's given credit for.
I want to look back and see what the general consensus was when Wayne was averaging under 20 in a season, if people weren't worried because of his general contribution to the game or because he would come good.
Obviously the difference is Wayne would have been much younger at the time, but I'm only responding to the comparison between Rooney's best ever season to Berbatov's second. I think that's a tad harsh.
Plus it is massively overlooked what he offers the team when it's not goals. He does far more then he's given credit for.
I want to look back and see what the general consensus was when Wayne was averaging under 20 in a season, if people weren't worried because of his general contribution to the game or because he would come good.
Fair enough, I happen to disagree.
We had Rooney on the pitch against Rangers, Hernandez too and we never looked remotely like breaching their defence. Berba can unlock defences better than most and that game was crying out for him, no-one better at managing to flick a ball over/through 8 defenders.
How can anyone not be excited about the prospect of that front four in the coming few seasons?
Plus a few other attacking youngsters in the mix too...
There's absolutely no chance we'll sell him in January.
I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if he was off in the Summer though.
I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if he was off in the Summer though.
We all knew Rooney had time on his side to come good. Berbatov should be in his form of his life yet he's failed to stamp his mark on United 2 and a half seasons in. As a senior striker, Berbatov should be leading at the front, an example to our kids.
When the chips were down, when we really needed Berbatov last year, he disappeared. Thats not the United mentality and not the type of player we need nor want at the club. He has all the skill in the world, but his mentality isn't there.
We have younger players coming through who frankly offer more, have the right attitude and won't be on high wages. Berbatovs had his chance and he blew it.
I won't lie, i've never been a fan of his, but even I admitted that he had found some form and finally come good during August, September. But its all gone terribly wrong again for him. It's like owning a classic sports car, brilliant to drive but spends more time off the road than on.
Since Rooney has been at United his goal record is
17,19,23,18,20,34,
Rooney worst season in terms of goals was his first which is better than Berba best which was 12. Rooney has also overcome 2 foot injuries and a bad ankle injury.
Rooney does score in bursts because he usually played deeper. Berba has been played both deeper and up front and its been pretty much the same record.
Berba was always a good player where fans raised him to a level he would never achieve. He is and never will be a consistent player.
True he has hit a barren spell, true he has had a couple of poor matches. Imo, mostly due to lack of mental strength, as some posters have already mentioned. But another key reason is the overall lack of quality in our play. Seriously, with Giggs injured and Scholes not playing every match as well as them having off matches once in a while, and Valencia injured, the only other consistent service provider is Nani.
The issue with him, and I am not talking only about the couple of under par games since the return from injury, is that he still has a lot to learn in respect to playing the simple and effective pass and also delivering consistently good crosses. He tends to overcomplicate things a lot of the times and overdoes it on the juggling, dribbling, step-over part. This seems to be the most frustrating bit for Berba from the look of things. This should not be an excuse but the lack of a simple but effective pass surely gets to be frustrating.
Look at the Dipper match, two good crosses from Giggs and O'Shea, and two goals. The overhead kick was more the result of his individual skill rather than a good cross from Nani.
Actually Nani has more of the striker qualities than Berba it seems. He is more selfish and takes more shots on goal even if the way is not clear. While Berba looks to pass the ball in situations where he is not sure of the result if he took a shot on goal and prefers to go for the assist.
Even though it will probably never happen, it would be interesting to see a match or two where Nani and Berba are actually both playing behind Rooney/ Hernandez in central midfield. But with Valencia injured, we would be lacking the wing options then. Crazy thought but I am just curious. For exmaple:
Rooney
Giggs Nani Berba Valencia
Carrick or Fletcher
defense
The issue with him, and I am not talking only about the couple of under par games since the return from injury, is that he still has a lot to learn in respect to playing the simple and effective pass and also delivering consistently good crosses. He tends to overcomplicate things a lot of the times and overdoes it on the juggling, dribbling, step-over part. This seems to be the most frustrating bit for Berba from the look of things. This should not be an excuse but the lack of a simple but effective pass surely gets to be frustrating.
Look at the Dipper match, two good crosses from Giggs and O'Shea, and two goals. The overhead kick was more the result of his individual skill rather than a good cross from Nani.
Actually Nani has more of the striker qualities than Berba it seems. He is more selfish and takes more shots on goal even if the way is not clear. While Berba looks to pass the ball in situations where he is not sure of the result if he took a shot on goal and prefers to go for the assist.
Even though it will probably never happen, it would be interesting to see a match or two where Nani and Berba are actually both playing behind Rooney/ Hernandez in central midfield. But with Valencia injured, we would be lacking the wing options then. Crazy thought but I am just curious. For exmaple:
Rooney
Giggs Nani Berba Valencia
Carrick or Fletcher
defense
I don't think we will sell but the talk is based on some logic. If United wait till the summer who is going to offer any realistic money for a 31 year old who has 1 year left on his contract and in January 2011 can sign for anyone as a free agent.
Personally I don't see any offers coming in that would make sense so I suspect we would Keep Berba and offer him an extension dependent upoon how the younger striker develop over the next year and half. Berba would become a good option.
Not denying he has a better goalscoring record, and probably will outscore Berbatov every time given the two stay at the same club for more years. The point I was addressing was that Rooney's 30+ season wasn't really a comparitve point in terms of consistency, considering he's not consistent at that level. In terms of his career, it was a freak season.
I don't think Berbatov is consistent enough, but then again I don't think he's had enough time. I reckon I'm more patient with players then the majority of posters on redcafe, often that's to my detriment as players go on to prove me wrong and show that time isn't always the most important factor. Berbatov's a hard one given his age, we obviously didn't buy him in mind to mature and grow into his role, however, I believe that's what he needs, and given time, he will perfect his position in our team and offer us more then our current alternatives.
The same with Nani, Obertan, Bebe, Anderson, Valencia, Macheda etc. These players are judged far too young, with people quick to say they aren't going to make it, or what they've shown so far is an indication of a lack of United quality to them. I think players need two or three years to adjust to where our current players are. Even if you have the ability straight away, you need the mentality, which at United is different to other clubs. Of course the age factor is completely different here, but I think a lot of it still applies to Berbatov who has had years in the premiership, but not at the highest level, and I still don't think we've seen anywhere near the real Berbatov, just glimpses and patches.
I reckon he will be here for at least a couple more years.
I don't think Berbatov is consistent enough, but then again I don't think he's had enough time. I reckon I'm more patient with players then the majority of posters on redcafe, often that's to my detriment as players go on to prove me wrong and show that time isn't always the most important factor. Berbatov's a hard one given his age, we obviously didn't buy him in mind to mature and grow into his role, however, I believe that's what he needs, and given time, he will perfect his position in our team and offer us more then our current alternatives.
The same with Nani, Obertan, Bebe, Anderson, Valencia, Macheda etc. These players are judged far too young, with people quick to say they aren't going to make it, or what they've shown so far is an indication of a lack of United quality to them. I think players need two or three years to adjust to where our current players are. Even if you have the ability straight away, you need the mentality, which at United is different to other clubs. Of course the age factor is completely different here, but I think a lot of it still applies to Berbatov who has had years in the premiership, but not at the highest level, and I still don't think we've seen anywhere near the real Berbatov, just glimpses and patches.
I reckon he will be here for at least a couple more years.
Yep, same here. I am pretty positive that if given the chance, he will end his career at United. I am pretty sure that he would even go for a pay cut to extend his contract.
Yup. I'm not even saying he's been quality. But he always has his terrific natural ability on the ball to fall back on if it's not perfectly clicking in the final third. He always will hold the ball well in tight spaces and give us a certain class on the ball. It's just really unfair to compare him in the last 8 games to Rooney. Huge gulf between the two.
Thats the problem though. Berbatov isn't a youngster and therefore should be producing the goods every week. How patient do we need to be with a senior 30million pound striker?
Doesn't work like that though does it. Just because he's older, it doesn't mean there should be no period of adaption, or that this period is somehow the same length of time for every player over a certain age.
That was perhaps our mistake, thinking he would settle in quicker then he has. It's never as simple as 'because he isn't young, he should be producing week in week out'. By that logic, Wayne should be on something like 60 goals a season.
The issue now is, we know he is capable, he just isn't at the right level yet. Do we consider selling him, for far less then £30 million and recoup some of the investment back, or give it time and lose that money in the long-term but gain someone who might perform up front on a consistent, regular basis and a gifted player for the youngsters to continue to learn from.
That was perhaps our mistake, thinking he would settle in quicker then he has. It's never as simple as 'because he isn't young, he should be producing week in week out'. By that logic, Wayne should be on something like 60 goals a season.
The issue now is, we know he is capable, he just isn't at the right level yet. Do we consider selling him, for far less then £30 million and recoup some of the investment back, or give it time and lose that money in the long-term but gain someone who might perform up front on a consistent, regular basis and a gifted player for the youngsters to continue to learn from.
Also, the step up from a team like Spurs to United is a major one isn't it? Surely that accounts for something over 2 and a half years. It's rare to have a player come in and begin scoring relentlessly within two seasons, not to mention what we've managed to lose in that period of time as well. It's not like we've had a fully stable team either for him in the past either.
The question is whether he has done enough to deserve a contract extension. I personally don't think he has, and he'll be sold this summer.
This is providing that we receive an offer anywhere near big enough to warrant it (50% of out initial outlay would be the best we're likely to get IMO).
This is providing that we receive an offer anywhere near big enough to warrant it (50% of out initial outlay would be the best we're likely to get IMO).
To be fair, when you fork out that sort of money on a player of his age you expect him to perform at the highest level from fairly close to the get go, at most a season. And I'm directing those expectations not at us fans, but at the team management. Because lets face it there is a certain after which a player simply cannot be one of the best, unless he's Zinadine Zidane. So yes, we did buy him, IMO at least, believing given his experience and age, that he would deliver very quickly. And because he didn't, time is running out for that with every year.
Having said that, I still wouldn't sell him. We're never going recoup any major chunk of his tranfer fee, and given his mentality and perceived nature, I reckon he'd be happy to play a role at the club for many years as an important member of the squad even not someone whose absolutely first choice. Besides, we seem to be focussing on youth and a player like him can only help in their development.
Two questions:
Is he likely to explode into this player that we all think he could become for us, given his age and the amount of time he's already had at the club?
If not, and we continue getting what we have seen so far (a mixture of poor, average, and the occasional very good performance) is that enough to warrant keeping him?
I would rather see money spent on some quality replacements for Scholes and Giggs that will add value to the team both short and long term and that will provide consistent service to our strikers. We will not make enough money back if we sell Berba, so this doesn't make sense to me.
Everyone holds their breath for this amazing impact Berbatov was meant to have...
To be fair, we would all be dead if we had.
In all seriousness, it is just so frustrating. Then you see that cnut Tevez over at City playing as he is...
To be fair, we would all be dead if we had.
In all seriousness, it is just so frustrating. Then you see that cnut Tevez over at City playing as he is...
Yes it is because:
a) His experience will help in a team whose success will depend on the development of youth.
b) People forget how good a squad player he could be. I reckon he could be a cracking backup as he ages. He could be our Giggs/Scholes 5 years from now
Berbatov is a quality player that doesn't suit our style basically. There is no doubting his quality on the ball, and the way he reads the game better than most attackers but sometimes he is just to slow on the ball and a bit to indecisive. He doesn't need to stay up top or drop deeper as long as he ups his tempo on the ball. Once he does that we will all see the Berbatov we want.
Totally agree with this part of the post. Would make sense to keep him for all of the above mentioned, sell him only for a significant amount of money, meaning above 20 million. Not likely.
In theory thats what Berbatov is supposed to offer the team, its why we bought him, the reality is in his 2 and a half seasons the times he has made the difference with a bit of magic in a tight game like that are few and far between.
2 and a half years?
Yes it is because:
a) His experience will help in a team whose success will depend on the development of youth.
b) People forget how good a squad player he could be. I reckon he could be a cracking backup as he ages. He could be our Giggs/Scholes 5 years from now
If he is gonna start helping he better stop throwing tantrums at the young players. I remember Hernandez one of his first few games for United hit a cross too far and Berba threw his arms in the air it doesnt help especially with some young players.
Saying all that I agree I want him around I like him as a player, with his experience and as you say its a squad game these days.
Can't disagree with that. I don't like when players do that unless they're setting an example themselves.
Agreed, I don't like it when he does it, it's annoying really, but it's not limited to Berbatov. Ronaldo would throw strops, Rooney does it all the time, even Giggs gets angry on occasion, although not as much. It seems to be a sticking point with Berbatov though, as if no-one else on our team has a similar problem.
My mistake, just over 2.
United:
Games Played: 101
Goals: 33
Assists: 17
Shots: 230
Shots on Goal: 90
Shot Accuracy: 39%
Spurs:
Games Played: 96
Goals: 45
Assists: 28
Shots: 257
Shots on Goal: 151
Shot Accuracy: 59%
He played much, much better at Spurs, as the stats proves. So whats going wrong with Berbatov?
Games Played: 101
Goals: 33
Assists: 17
Shots: 230
Shots on Goal: 90
Shot Accuracy: 39%
Spurs:
Games Played: 96
Goals: 45
Assists: 28
Shots: 257
Shots on Goal: 151
Shot Accuracy: 59%
He played much, much better at Spurs, as the stats proves. So whats going wrong with Berbatov?
Think about it. What reaction would you have to the following situations:
a) A player who, if anything, you are a better performer than whines all game about anything wrong/perceivably that you do, despite playing much worse than you.
or
b) A player who is the benchmark of performance of the team shows his frustration towards you.
In almost any walk in life, the latter would make one more determined and the former would draw either ignorance or ire. It's all about respect.
Yes, although he can't help is price tag one way or the other. It's our expectation that is as much at fault, although his inconsistency at times makes the abuse a bit easier to throw. I would say he's underperforming, but not to the level some of us are making out, he's had some drops in form and he hasn't settled in two years, for me, that's not the end of the world or the maximum amount of time I'm prepared to give.
It doesn't make sense to sell him, unless the figure is high up there, because of what he can at least offer us short and long term, development for players and a key role in our squad. Just a couple of months ago people were raving spastic about him, now a lull in form, or not even that, a few poor games and a lapse in goal return and now it's talk of summer time.
Probably not, but I think he can certainly offer us a hell of a lot. I have faith that he can achieve the 20 goal mark this or next season. I don't think he will have a 'Rooney' season if you like, but then I don't think Wayne will be having one of those again either.
It's probably not enough to warrant keeping him if the option to sell is there to recoup our money, maybe not then, but that's extremely unlikely. Therefore we look at making a loss on his sale and re-investing, or using him to help win games, achieve success and develop our youngsters. I think he's worth far more to us, then what we can sell him for.
He's taking time to get into it. Also, I think the real point is in the comparison. Spurs.....United.
Neither, both shouldn't show their frustration. That first option is retarded though. Who is a better performer then him, who are you talking about? Every single player in our team? Obviously doesn't whine all game, that's a massive exaggeration, he also applauds passes and crosses too, unless that's been left out on purpose, despite playing much worse then who again? Who are you talking about here, every player?
So, if Berbatov does it, it's awful because he's worse then any player he's doing it too, whines all game anyway and plays much worse then everyone, it's unnaceptable.
But if Wayne does it, in a row of bad performances, a slump in form and he does the same thing, it's okay because he's of a better standard?
So our better players are allowed to show the same frustrations, despite how they are playing on the day, good or bad, because they are better players?
You have to admit those two situations, if you actually read it, don't apply to each other, and don't make any sense whatsoever. The first one in particular.
I would much rather keep Michael Owen then Berbatov to enhance youth development. A natural goal scorer and somebody who's got a tactical awareness that is very very rare and would be beneficial to any youth player. He also scores goals regularly regardless of form. Simply, he doesn't not score goals. If people are seriously considering that Berbatov would accept a pay cut to stay at United then he 'berba' should feck off right now. Its that kind of defeatist attitude that leaves him in the position he is today.
I didnt want sound as if I was hating on Berba I hate it when all players moan on the pitch even Rooney. It just when it comes to the young players like Kiko or Hernandez I wish he would be a little easy on them but he isnt.
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