Baby elephant is growing quickly in the room

[Dobbs]

Under SAF an out of form player was benched, he would notice it during the week and bench him. That's why the fans weren't in a position to say that a player was out of form for a entire month.

Nah that didn't happen, the squads weren't bog enough back then. Look at the players I mentioned, they weren't dropped for a month just because of form.

Fair enough, I'm going to give him a good settling in period before I start getting worried.

Rather than comparing him to outstanding players in his age group, compare him to class players in any age group who haven't yet played 10 games for their new team.


Or compare him to players who played about 80 games last year.

Or combine the two and accept that while he's physically in peak condition it could take him a little while to settle into a groove and get the mental side of it perfect.

Yeah completely agree about a settling in period, I wouldn't expect hin to be at his best.

Maybe I'm bring harsh but when the talents there and all you do all week is practice I just don't get the basics not being right game after game. Even last night, if you look at the cross for Ibra, he only got a yard of space because he miscontrolled the ball a bit. Same for the chance he created against Stoke. Ball ran under his foot and put the defenders off.

 

[Rozay]

So we're talking about three presentable chances created in 8 league games. Which fits with the stats you were doubting. He's really not creating much at all.

Well that said, I'm not purporting to have a photographic memory of every chance created, those are just some very good ones I can recall, mainly because I have been making a point of Zlatan profligacy of late. I don't believe he's done nothing other than that. I'm sure even the stats say he has created more, those are what I recall.

In any case, he should be doing more, but he should also have more assists to his name now. He's also hit the bar in two games we have failed to win, and the story could easily be very different. His shot against the bar gives us the lead away to Watford, and his header against the bar gives us a win against Stoke. Perhaps along with an assist in the first minute. Of course, you can't score every shot, so my argument is moot I guess.

Again, he needs to step it up, but the margins are fine and I don't think he's as far as people are making out.

 

[noodlehair]

Nobody described him ever as a forward and only few people as #10. The problem with Pogba is that the fairly simplistic classifications like #6-DM/#8-CM/#10-AM or b2b/holding midfielder don’t really describe him particularly well, because he doesn’t confirm the regular stereotypes of these roles.

Simplistic classifications don't work for any good player. He's a midfielder with a strong physical presence. He has different strengths and weaknesses like any player does, but he also has things he can and can't or does and doesn't do...and people keep criticising him for things he's just not going to do.

I've seen multiple threads or arguments where people seem to want him to play instead of a number 10 (or basically instead of Rooney). In the odd game where we need an extra midfielder more than we need a no10, yes. As some kind of substitute for having a no10 but who still offers the same things, no...because that's just not what he is. He's getting loads of criticism from last night's game for basically not playing well as a no10 or advanced player...but he was also an important physical presence when it came to what we were doing when Liverpool had the ball...and he wont be playing in that role for 95% of games this season anyway, regardless of what people seem to think.

basically describing him as a Henderson though. The driving the team forward has also been no existent as often times he has soo few touches of the ball and walks around the pitch off the ball. not much driving as of yet to be fair.

I'm not sure what Henderson you're thinking of but, well, no.

The driving the team forwards comes in moments from him at the moment, not always in overall performances. That's how it was at Juve and for France in the summer so again it's not a surprise. He's not the finished article yet and that's another thing people seem really eager to forget.

Still, his performances against Southampton and Leicester were a pretty good example of what he can do, and what you'd hope in time he can produce more consistently.

There were stats recently suggesting he covers more ground than any of our other players so I don't buy the walking about thing. Zlatan walks about...Pogba isn't positionally disciplined like Carrick used to be but he's rarely not doing anything.

Ironic considering the prime element of a Pogba thread is posters arguing what exactly he is, a 6,8 or 10, so no, "everyone has not decided he's a forward or 10", quite the opposite actually. People don't seem to know yet.

People seemed pretty adamant he should be played as the furthest forward of a three, after for some reason deciding he can't play in a two (even though that's where his best performances have come from for us so far).

I don't think it's a great mystery what or where Pogba's strengths are. He's not exactly an enigma. The mystery is why people can't seem to accept what he is.

 

[Stacks]

Simplistic classifications don't work for any good player. He's a midfielder with a strong physical presence. He has different strengths and weaknesses like any player does, but he also has things he can and can't or does and doesn't do...and people keep criticising him for things he's just not going to do.

I've seen multiple threads or arguments where people seem to want him to play instead of a number 10 (or basically instead of Rooney). In the odd game where we need an extra midfielder more than we need a no10, yes. As some kind of substitute for having a no10 but who still offers the same things, no...because that's just not what he is. He's getting loads of criticism from last night's game for basically not playing well as a no10 or advanced player...but he was also an important physical presence when it came to what we were doing when Liverpool had the ball...and he wont be playing in that role for 95% of games this season anyway, regardless of what people seem to think.



I'm not sure what Henderson you're thinking of but, well, no.

The driving the team forwards comes in moments from him at the moment, not always in overall performances. That's how it was at Juve and for France in the summer so again it's not a surprise. He's not the finished article yet and that's another thing people seem really eager to forget.

Still, his performances against Southampton and Leicester were a pretty good example of what he can do, and what you'd hope in time he can produce more consistently.

There were stats recently suggesting he covers more ground than any of our other players so I don't buy the walking about thing. Zlatan walks about...Pogba isn't positionally disciplined like Carrick used to be but he's rarely not doing anything.



People seemed pretty adamant he should be played as the furthest forward of a three, after for some reason deciding he can't play in a two (even though that's where his best performances have come from for us so far).

I don't think it's a great mystery what or where Pogba's strengths are. He's not exactly an enigma. The mystery is why people can't seem to accept what he is.

In the summer I thought he was quite poor for France so I don't know what euros you were watching. Driving the team forward is especially important in games when we are struggling and I have seen little evidence of that in 7 or so games. Southampton he did just that. made things happen. Leicester to be fair, he was more dictating rather than driving. I rarely see him open his legs up and use that pace, power and skills to genuinely "drive us forward". He should watch videos of Yaya and Gerrard to learn from the best. Thats what any young player should do.
within the 1st 2 mins of this clip is the type of "driving the team forward I expect from a skillful centre midfielder as opposed to just getting out of a tight situation. Again Southampton game was closer to this but it is few and far between. Like Scholey said, he could do some one twos and burst into the box. No one could stop him and with that ping he has got, could bag goals galore. At the moment it looks as if with his star status, the pressure is too much and the expectation of being the leading light is weighing him down. Its probably mental

 

[redflair]

He's got to learn to value efficiency over exhibitionism.

That said it's impossible to analyse last night's performance as everyone was subsumed by Jose's blueprint.

 

[PedroMendez]

Simplistic classifications don't work for any good player. He's a midfielder with a strong physical presence. He has different strengths and weaknesses like any player does, but he also has things he can and can't or does and doesn't do...and people keep criticising him for things he's just not going to do.

I've seen multiple threads or arguments where people seem to want him to play instead of a number 10 (or basically instead of Rooney). In the odd game where we need an extra midfielder more than we need a no10, yes. As some kind of substitute for having a no10 but who still offers the same things, no...because that's just not what he is. He's getting loads of criticism from last night's game for basically not playing well as a no10 or advanced player...but he was also an important physical presence when it came to what we were doing when Liverpool had the ball...and he wont be playing in that role for 95% of games this season anyway, regardless of what people seem to think.

Well…….maybe there are good reasons to debate this, because I clearly disagree with your assessment of his qualities. “Strong physical presence” was never his stand-out quality for Juventus. They always had much more combative/physical players next to him (e.g. Vidal or Khedira). It almost like with Toure (who was a much more rounded player, while playing for City), where everybody just looks at the guy and sees a big athletic black lad and automatically assumes that he has to be Viera2.0.

Pogba’s physical attributes really only comes into play, when driving the ball forward, but other players can do the same without being exceptional athletes.

Juventus usually used a different system and Pogba played in a role that we don’t have. He had a lot of freedom and what really set him apart was his ability to create a bit of magic. In between these moments he did a bit of everything or just went missing.

Now, Mourinho isn’t the kind of manager that is coming up with innovative/creative lineups that will allow him to play in a similar role. We also don’t have the players to make this happen.

There is a trade-off between him being the central cog in our midfield and him having freedom to create magic. We can’t have it both, so it will be a balancing act to get the best out of him – at least this season. Considering that we lack a playmaker in midfield (Carrick is out of favor), he has to take over a lot of this responsibility, but he is not and never will be world class in this role. It will also limit his ability to affect games in other ways. To be extremely polemic: If we use him in this role, we bought Dembele2.0 for 89m.

Jose understood that Liverpool’s #1 strength is to win the ball high up the pitch. Pogba starting to drive the ball forward from deep would have been a massive risk. That is the reason why he started further forward. While he was hardly great, he gets too much stick for his performance yesterday. A lot of that was down to our defensive lineup.

If we really want to get the best out of Pogba we need different players around him. So we are going to hear the same complains at least till the end of the season.

 

[Varun]

Past inclusions. Quite an high grade list of top top performers who delivered on multiple fronts. Having been placed in this company sort of got me gassed. This is because I don't have seria A access and was disappointed when I saw him in the CL and at 2 international tournaments so was really all one could go by. "all the scouts and managers cannot be wrong surely?"
2015 - Pogba Modric Iniesta
2014 - Di Maria, Kroos, Iniesta
2013 - Iniesta Ribery Xavi
2012 - Iniesta Xavi Xabi Alonso
2011 - Iniesta Xavi Xabi Alonso
2010 - Iniesta Xavi Sneidjer
2009 - Xavi Iniesta Gerrard
2008 - Kaka Gerrard Xavi

That's a solid list. Pogba did have a top year for Juve though so I guess he did deserve it but I don't have in the top 3 CMs around.

Let’s not rewrite history. The caf always loved Pogba and the overwhelming consensus was - long before he got linked to us - that he is one of the best midfielders in the world. Once the transfer saga started to get some credibility, he was hyped even more and was seen on a level with the very best midfielders out there.

So yeah, if you just followed the caf and didn’t actually watch him play (or just watched a bit of YouTube), you could reasonably have assumed that we get a world-beater. The few people who didn’t bought into the hype were ignored or shouted down.

Oh yes, that's what I thought Stacks meant when he said tricked but I wanted to be sure. This was said even before he signed for us by quite a few people but then it's sort of understandable that people overhyped a player we were about to sign. Even more so when they have such an incredible highlight reel, not many CMs around that have one as good as him which totally fecks up the impression of someone who hasn't watched him much. This is why I said before he signed for us and even say it now, some people criticise him for failing to do things he's never actually done in his career. Fair enough about some of the valid criticism, he's surely capable of much more but some of the things he's been criticised for is simply ridiculous given he's never done it.

 

[Masterman]

Everyone seems to have decided he's a forward or no10, based on, well, nothing, and have invented this term "advanced midfielder" which I've never heard used to describe any player before...and then slate him for not playing like one of these things. He's never going to be that type of player. He wasn't when he was in our youth set up, he wasn't at Juve whenever I watched him there. He never has been for France. Why do people think this is what Paul Pogba is? I mean to the point you see people whining about us "misusing" him by playing him in midfield.

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/manc...acking-role-with-manchester-united-and-france

Pogba sees himself as an advanced midfielder and thinks Mourinho is misusing him by playing him deep.

"I try to adapt," Pogba said. "I am a player who would rather go forward. "The coach gave me instructions, I try to follow them. I have to retrieve balls and make defensive efforts.

If he wants to be Zidane then he will be judged by the same standards people judge Zidane. If he wants to be a box to box then he has to play more like one and do the kind of stuff Mourinho wants him to do.

 

[clarkydaz]

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/manc...acking-role-with-manchester-united-and-france

Pogba sees himself as an advanced midfielder and thinks Mourinho is misusing him by playing him deep.



If he wants to be Zidane then he will be judged by the same standards people judge Zidane. If he wants to be a box to box then he has to play more like one and do the kind of stuff Mourinho wants him to do.

you'd think little things like this would be made clear between player and manager when dealing with this type of transfer

 

[Synco]

Pogba sees himself as an advanced midfielder and thinks Mourinho is misusing him by playing him deep.

That was after the France game and he meant Deschamps. This article is a baffling example of bullshit journalism. The author uses every trick available to make Pogba seem to have said this about Mourinho without actually writing it.

 

[Liver_bird]

His numbers dont appear to look that bad, can he do more? Of course he can, but I think you guys are judging him a little too harshly, He's not an 89million pound player but on form playing in a system/team that suits him he's a top midfielder and one of the best in this league. Hes not going to drag you up single-handedly, and he can certainly improve but hes not been anywhere near as bad as people think.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

you'd think little things like this would be made clear between player and manager when dealing with this type of transfer

Well he's talking about Deschamps. So no transfer involved.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

His numbers dont appear to look that bad, can he do more? Of course he can, but I think you guys are judging him a little too harshly, He's not an 89million pound player but on form playing in a system/team that suits him he's a top midfielder and one of the best in this league. Hes not going to drag you up single-handedly, and he can certainly improve but hes not been anywhere near as bad as people think.

Once again the Liverpool fans on here speak so much more sense than most of the Utd fans who are just knee jerk and irrational. You guys are making too much of a habit of this sensible posting.

 

[Theonas]

His numbers dont appear to look that bad, can he do more? Of course he can, but I think you guys are judging him a little too harshly, He's not an 89million pound player but on form playing in a system/team that suits him he's a top midfielder and one of the best in this league. Hes not going to drag you up single-handedly, and he can certainly improve but hes not been anywhere near as bad as people think.

Spot on! No midfielder is a 89 million player for me. That price tag is for consistent game changers and those are almost always forwards. The only midfielder I can think of who can belong to that category over the past few years is Iniesta. That's not to say midfielders can't be world class, it's just that their role and position on the pitch makes them more restricted by the system, formation, movement and positioning of their teammates. The problem is a lot of our fans because of the frustration of the past few years have convinced themselves that great cohesive football is simply a matter of getting an established name and letting him do this thing. This might have happened with a Messi or Neymar but it was never going to happen with Pogba.

 

[Bastian]

People could look at him like a 40-50m midfielder. In a world that has maybe 3-4 of them. And he's young. No team will want to sell. So you simply pay much more to get him.

It is incredibly early to start judging him though and surely most people still feel he'll prove to be a great purchase.

 

[sunama]

the lad is 23. calm the heck down.

23 is not young anymore.
By that age, Ronaldo and Messi had already laid stake to being the best players in the World.
Rooney, by that age was his absolute peak.
How old was DDG when he won his first got POTY for MUFC? 22?
I could go on, but you get my drift.

Judge him after 30-40 matches. It's way too soon.

Christ on a stick, he gave Ando 4 seasons before deciding that he wasn't going to going to be Ronaldinho v2.0

So Anderson has become the standard by which all players are judged?

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

23 is not young anymore.
By that age, Ronaldo and Messi had already laid stake to being the best players in the World.
Rooney, by that age was his absolute peak.
How old was DDG when he won his first got POTY for MUFC? 22?
I could go on, but you get my drift.



So Anderson has become the standard by which all players are judged?

not midfielder a the lot of them. The Anderson defence is ace...

 

[Stacks]

His numbers dont appear to look that bad, can he do more? Of course he can, but I think you guys are judging him a little too harshly, He's not an 89million pound player but on form playing in a system/team that suits him he's a top midfielder and one of the best in this league. Hes not going to drag you up single-handedly, and he can certainly improve but hes not been anywhere near as bad as people think.

What numbers are you referring to though? I judge him as one of the best CM in the world because that was he was claimed to be based on last year. Of course I am happy to revise my expectations though

 

[Viral United]

If we are talking about baby elephant it should be Miki, though he is injured but we are yet to see what he can produce for us.
He may be good for Dortamand but I want to see he do something similar for us.
I really don't want to see Rashford drop for him.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Players always just need time to get back in to it. You see it with long injuries or moving to a new club.

Maybe Paul should call Robben, since he has no problem finding his form right away after am injury and scored a brace at his debut for Bayern and took of from there.

 

[Borden]

That's a very strange idea. How Blind plays for Holland has absolutely nothing to do with whether Pogba's been a good signing or not. I'm just hoping for at least a hint that we haven't had our pants taken down in the transfer market. A-fecking-gain. Just a hint would do nicely because there's been precious few so far.

Wow, calm down. He came straight from vacation with no pre-season, and is still settling into a newly composed team in a new league adapting to a new manager's ideas, who has yet to find the best use for him. Oh, and he's played 9 games.

Pogba is 23 years old, and is already one of the best CM's in the world. Many of the best midfielders of all time, like Zidane and Xavi, were 'nowhere' at 23. He'll be fine once the team settles, and players like Martial and Mkhi hit form.

 

[Stacks]

If we are talking about baby elephant it should be Miki, though he is injured but we are yet to see what he can produce for us.
He may be good for Dortamand but I want to see he do something similar for us.
I really don't want to see Rashford drop for him.

Hardly an elephant in the room though. Everyone knows Miki has played very "few" minutes so its pointless even judging him yet. He has made 1 start, after coming back from injury against the top team so he hasn't had any settlement. In fact its the worst entry to a team you can have. Benched for few games, injured, return for toughest game, subbed at half time, injured again. 107 minutes in the premier league so far. I just checked. Where is the elephant? what is going unaddressed? anyone can see that is not even worth passing judgement on. He has totalled just over 1 game in minutes. That's a joke. If he is injury prone well......

 

[Viral United]

Hardly an elephant in the room though. Everyone knows Miki has played very "few" minutes so its pointless even judging him yet. He has made 1 start, after coming back from injury against the top team so he hasn't had any settlement. In fact its the worst entry to a team you can have. Benched for few games, injured, return for toughest game, subbed at half time, injured again. 107 minutes in the premier league so far. I just checked. Where is the elephant? what is going unaddressed? anyone can see that is not even worth passing judgement on. He has totalled just over 1 game in minutes. That's a joke. If he is injury prone well......

If it is joke then how about judging Pogba and Ibra for 8 games? Than this whole thread become joke.
And its not like Pogba and Ibra are shit in all those games, they have some ups and down.
If I look Pogba, Ibra and Miki, I genially consider Miki the baby elephant.
Its disappointing he only play less and if my memory is correct its not like he was injured during whole time.
Also weather he is injured or not, its not look like he will play against Chelsea in PL game and also City in league cup.
As far as injury prone I don't think so he has that record but hey we are curse you know.

 

[Stacks]

Wow, calm down. He came straight from vacation with no pre-season, and is still settling into a newly composed team in a new league adapting to a new manager's ideas, who has yet to find the best use for him. Oh, and he's played 9 games.

Pogba is 23 years old, and is already one of the best CM's in the world. Many of the best midfielders of all time, like Zidane and Xavi, were 'nowhere' at 23. He'll be fine once the team settles, and players like Martial and Mkhi hit form.

debateable. on the 20 or so live games I have watched him, I have seen zero evidence of this. I am being deadly serious. He has played only a similar amount of games as Xavi and Zidane at the same age so you never know. However no one regarded those players as one of the best in the world in their position at age 23.

 

[podurban2]

debateable. on the 20 or so live games I have watched him, I have seen zero evidence of this. I am being deadly serious. He has played only a similar amount of games as Xavi and Zidane at the same age so you never know. However no one regarded those players as one of the best in the world in their position at age 23.

Hmm..

 

[Borden]

debateable. on the 20 or so live games I have watched him, I have seen zero evidence of this. I am being deadly serious. He has played only a similar amount of games as Xavi and Zidane at the same age so you never know. However no one regarded those players as one of the best in the world in their position at age 23.

Well I have. And he was in the UEFA Team of the Year and FIFPRO World XI, so whether or not you personally regard him as one of the best midfielders in the world, there's no question that most do (they certainly did while he was at Juventus).

 

[Stacks]

If it is joke then how about judging Pogba and Ibra for 8 games? Than this whole thread become joke.
And its not like Pogba and Ibra are shit in all those games, they have some ups and down.
If I look Pogba, Ibra and Miki, I genially consider Miki the baby elephant.
Its disappointing he only play less and if my memory is correct its not like he was injured during whole time.
Also weather he is injured or not, its not look like he will play against Chelsea in PL game and also City in league cup.
As far as injury prone I don't think so he has that record but hey we are curse you know.

They have played 10 times more so that makes absolutely no sense to me. The reasoning for Miki starting on the bench is unknown. Start of the season was claimed it was fitness. when he came on vs Hull he changed the game. Then got injured again. P.S. Pogba isn't just being judged on United games IMO. Those who don't watch Serie A will be looking at France + Champions League games as well so 20 or so matches. That's what I am looking at anyway.

 

[Stacks]

Hmm..

Well I have. And he was in the UEFA Team of the Year and FIFPRO World XI, so whether or not you personally regard him as one of the best midfielders in the world, there's no question that most do (they certainly did while he was at Juventus).

The funny thing is I used this FifPro in a other thread, maybe even this one, to ask if this proves anything, as those who watched him over the seasons in Italy suggest he certainly isn't one of the best midfielders in the world. It is dangerous to rely solely on this without actually studying his game. Having seen him in action, there are far too many holes in his game to be regarded one of the best. In France they think he is grossly overrated. Petit said as much, as he claimed they talk about Pogba being one of the best in the world but he has done feck all at the world level. little impact in the champions league or internationally so its a farce. His youtube highlights make him look like the best though. I don't see him as better than Kroos or Rakitic based on what I have seen.

 

[Invictus]

The FIFPro World XI is not to be taken seriously, IMO.

The best defender of the last half decade (Diego Godín) has 0 appearances, whereas Ramos makes the list every year (for a total of 6). Same goes for Thiago Silva, who's not as great as he once was, but is preferred over the likes of Boateng and Bonucci. Then there's the selection of David Luiz - which just takes the cake. A lot of the players deserve to be there, but there's also an element of it being more of a popularity/marketability/political endeavor, which is a recurring theme with FIFA awards.

As for Pogba, he was good, but probably not World XI worthy good. It's also telling that the most important component of post-Calciopoli Juventus' midfield (Vidal) made 0 appearances from 2011-2015: even in seasons where he played like Kanté on steroids, drove 'em forward from the center of the park, and scored 15-18 goals.

 

[podurban2]

The FIFPro World XI is not to be taken seriously, IMO.

The best defender of the last half decade (Diego Godín) has 0 appearances, whereas Ramos makes the list every year (for a total of 6). Same goes for Thiago Silva, who's not as great as he once was, but is preferred over the likes of Boateng and Bonucci. Then there's the selection of David Luiz - which just takes the cake. A lot of the players deserve to be there, but there's also an element of it being more of a popularity/marketability/political endeavor, which is a recurring theme with FIFA awards.

As for Pogba, he was good, but probably not World XI worthy good. It's also telling that the most important component of post-Calciopoli Juventus' midfield (Vidal) made 0 appearances from 2011-2015: even in seasons where he played like Kanté on steroids, drove 'em forward from the center of the park, and scored 15-18 goals.

We are talking one of the best, not the best or even top three. Godin and Pogba both fall into that category regardless if it's in the absolute top or not.

 

[Stacks]

The FIFPro World XI is not to be taken seriously, IMO.

The best defender of the last half decade (Diego Godín) has 0 appearances, whereas Ramos makes the list every year (for a total of 6). Same goes for Thiago Silva, who's not as great as he once was, but is preferred over the likes of Boateng and Bonucci. Then there's the selection of David Luiz - which just takes the cake. A lot of the players deserve to be there, but there's also an element of it being more of a popularity/marketability/political endeavor, which is a recurring theme with FIFA awards.

As for Pogba, he was good, but probably not World XI worthy good. It's also telling that the most important component of post-Calciopoli Juventus' midfield (Vidal) made 0 appearances from 2011-2015: even in seasons where he played like Kanté on steroids, drove 'em forward from the center of the park, and scored 15-18 goals.

Shit. forgot about Vidal. He was the beast we dreamed of. The ultimate Box 2 Box. The next Roy Keane. He made no appearances? wow. Then Bayern bagged him for sooo cheap

 

[Viral United]

They have played 10 times more so that makes absolutely no sense to me. The reasoning for Miki starting on the bench is unknown. Start of the season was claimed it was fitness. when he came on vs Hull he changed the game. Then got injured again. P.S. Pogba isn't just being judged on United games IMO. Those who don't watch Serie A will be looking at France + Champions League games as well so 20 or so matches. That's what I am looking at anyway.

I am judged all them using only United game, I don't care what they do in their country or other club.
And I think lots of people judging them same.
I know Miki got injured in international break dont know about previous injury.
It make sense when we played that much amount of game and one of our player only play 170 minutes. As I said we are yet to see what he can do for us.

 

[Halds]

Everybody knows Pogba is a good player. You overpaid for him, but a good player nonetheless. It's interesting to see so many confused about his best position. A lot of you have an answer to, what his best position isn't, but what is his best position then? 6, 8 or 10? Is he a box to box? Can he dictate a match? Is he best in the build up from defence? Or is he a matchwinnertype with assists and goals?

Pogba reminds me of Gerrard in the way, that he is a strong great talent, that can potentially play in all the midfield positions, and do well. He has his matchwinning moments, but he can't dictate a match. This thing about his position, is similar to the discussions about Gerrards position among Liverpools supporters years ago. He had his moments of brilliance, and could turn a match around by his individual class. But he couldn't dictate a match, like Alonso could, or Scholes for you. And he wasn't disciplined enough to be a part of a midfield two. The balance of the team was never quite right imo. He was sometimes played out wide too. It could be frustrating, because everybody knew Gerrard was a great player. But he never really found the right spot imo, until he played with Torres in front of him, and Alonso behind him.

So my guess is, that you need a player who can dictate a match, before you see the best of Pogba. Is Carrick finished yet?

 

[pseudo_canadian]

People are expecting the wrong things from Pogba. He will create chances and he'll score the odd goal because he has the power and skill to do it...but he's a midfielder, so he's not going to be doing it multiple times a game.

Everyone seems to have decided he's a forward or no10, based on, well, nothing, and have invented this term "advanced midfielder" which I've never heard used to describe any player before...and then slate him for not playing like one of these things. He's never going to be that type of player. He wasn't when he was in our youth set up, he wasn't at Juve whenever I watched him there. He never has been for France. Why do people think this is what Paul Pogba is? I mean to the point you see people whining about us "misusing" him by playing him in midfield.

He's a physical presence in the middle who can drive the team forwards, commit players and then move the play on, and one that's still developing and learning how to run or impose himself on a game, rather than drift in and out of it.

Forget the fee and just judge him on what he is and actually does well. Rather then expecting him to do stuff he's never going to be the type of player to do. So far he's had a couple of really good games, some decent ones, and one or two poor ones, but he's been a massive improvement already in the middle of the pitch.

I find it utterly bizarre he's become some kind of target, after what, less than 10 games? Mostly based on people expecting the wrong things too, rather than having all that much to do with how he's played. £89m doesn't mean you automatically become the world's best player. He might get close to that in time but surely everyone knew he wasn't that yet?

Another great post, noodlehair. You put my exact thoughts into a well-constructed analysis.

Pogba has already added a much needed physical presence and control in the midfield yet people expect him to be entirely different, like having an Iniesta-like influence on the game or something.

 

[BlueCelery]

Exactly. Remember the shit folks used to say when Ozil had just arrived in the EPL.....Give the lad time. He still plays at Serie A pace too much for his own good at times

Ozil was indisputably World Class though. Pogba had question marks about him even at Juventus. Let's not act like he hasn't always been a polarising player.

These debates will always rage on until we figure out what he actually is. It looks like he himself isn't even sure of that either.

As of now he's a great talent but not a great player.

 

[Vialli_92]

The FIFPro World XI is not to be taken seriously, IMO.
The best defender of the last half decade (Diego Godín) has 0 appearances, whereas Ramos makes the list every year (for a total of 6). Same goes for Thiago Silva, who's not as great as he once was, but is preferred over the likes of Boateng and Bonucci. Then there's the selection of David Luiz - which just takes the cake. A lot of the players deserve to be there, but there's also an element of it being more of a popularity/marketability/political endeavor, which is a recurring theme with FIFA awards.

As for Pogba, he was good, but probably not World XI worthy good. It's also telling that the most important component of post-Calciopoli Juventus' midfield (Vidal) made 0 appearances from 2011-2015: even in seasons where he played like Kanté on steroids, drove 'em forward from the center of the park, and scored 15-18 goals.

Ramos and Luiz should not be anywhere near those kind of lists. There are so many defenders better than the both of them yet they always get a mention.

 

[Stacks]

Everybody knows Pogba is a good player. You overpaid for him, but a good player nonetheless. It's interesting to see so many confused about his best position. A lot of you have an answer to, what his best position isn't, but what is his best position then? 6, 8 or 10? Is he a box to box? Can he dictate a match? Is he best in the build up from defence? Or is he a matchwinnertype with assists and goals?

Pogba reminds me of Gerrard in the way, that he is a strong great talent, that can potentially play in all the midfield positions, and do well. He has his matchwinning moments, but he can't dictate a match. This thing about his position, is similar to the discussions about Gerrards position among Liverpools supporters years ago. He had his moments of brilliance, and could turn a match around by his individual class. But he couldn't dictate a match, like Alonso could, or Scholes for you. And he wasn't disciplined enough to be a part of a midfield two. The balance of the team was never quite right imo. He was sometimes played out wide too. It could be frustrating, because everybody knew Gerrard was a great player. But he never really found the right spot imo, until he played with Torres in front of him, and Alonso behind him.

So my guess is, that you need a player who can dictate a match, before you see the best of Pogba. Is Carrick finished yet?

This is quite astute. a midfield 3 is what we have been crying out for with Morgan/Herrea playing the tough guy role and Carrick or Bastian dictating. atm the onus has been on Pogba to do all the offensive side which he cannot do by himself. The balance hasn't been right in any match thus far. Playing Fellaini and Herrera as destroyers means Pogab is expected to be iniesta which he isn't. This is probably why Jose went for Kante. I do believe Herrera is showing promise in the combative role so as Scholes says, we need to spend another 60mill on a world class playmaker (Kroos, Modric) to get the best out of our 90million signing

 

[Stacks]

Another great post, noodlehair. You put my exact thoughts into a well-constructed analysis.

Pogba has already added a much needed physical presence and control in the midfield yet people expect him to be entirely different, like having an Iniesta-like influence on the game or something.

Control? what games against strong midfields have we controlled, just out of curiosity? With Paul's fairly average pass accuracy, I would have to disagree that he adds control to the midfield. Physical presence isn't essential nowadays. We saw this with City and Liverpools midfielders were able to push us around it times. Barcelona, Bayern and Real also. I am not disbuting he has a good build and athleticism, I just don't think Physical presence is boasting us. Fellaini is physical too

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Ozil was indisputably World Class though. Pogba had question marks about him even at Juventus. Let's not act like he hasn't always been a polarising player.

These debates will always rage on until we figure out what he actually is. It looks like he himself isn't even sure of that either.

As of now he's a great talent but not a great player.

Pogba never had any question marks over him at Juventus nor was he polarizing. I also don't but the notion he isn't a great player. For that was the same line of argument used against Ozil during his first season. Fact is form is temporary and class is permanent. O expect in the long run Pogba will finish off his critics with consistency.

 

[Adebesi]

So to the people who think there's a baby elephant in the room. Is it shrinking?