I haven't said they're all that matter though and the Madrid/Everton comment is bizarre snobbery.
Arsenal 2023/24 - Born to be runner up
- Thread starter horsechoker
- Start date
I haven't said they're all that matter though and the Madrid/Everton comment is bizarre snobbery.
It’s not the League, but lack of any silverware or at least deep domestic runs.
Overall Arteta has done a great job but has nothing to show for it so far. They’re not league champions, weren’t threatening in the UCL and got eliminated from domestic cups early.
At some point people will expect more
Oh, perhaps I misunderstood your point. What are you saying, then?
To be fair, Arteta has won the FA Cup. The fact that this is frequently forgotten suggests that deep domestic runs aren’t all that highly thought of.
My point is that you're reaching a point where improvement can only be met with trophies. At some point, which I believe is probably next season, not winning a trophy won't be good enough for the resources pumped into the club and the performances/expectations.
You can only get along by good vibes for so long relative to the context of the players at your disposal and size of the club. Arsenal fans and neutrals have for the most part mutually agreed that over the past two seasons they've been playing some of the best football in Europe and performing at one of the highest levels in Europe so for a club doing that, yes, you'd expect a trophy to be a part of that. I think if you're considered one of the best teams around and you don't win a trophy then it's a bit odd. I understand the City machine and luck involved in cups but I think even Arsenal fans would find it hard to argue that their domestic cup showing this season was good enough.
I don't understand the Everton jibes because we aren't expected to win a trophy relative to the size of the club compared to others in the league. In terms of what we have spent we have catastrophically failed, I don't deny or hide that.
It's almost like people think in these debates that football is black and white, that there's not nuances and different layers of thinking behind it.
I mean, Spurs, absolutely desperate for a trophy, sacked serial trophy winner in Mourinho and replaced him with Ryan Mason on the eve of a cup final.
He won it 3 years ago?
I haven’t forgotten. But 1 FA Cup in 5 years and absolutely no cup runs was my point.
I’m not dismissing what he’s done with Arsenal, but at some point (and to me that will be very soon) we will expect much more than finishing second and nothing else
I actually think its the same reason people forget Di Matteo won the CL with Chelsea. He came into the middle of the season, took a team that wasn't his, and fluked a cup run.
Absolutely not. Arsenal are in a better place competitively compared to United. There are so many managers who were alluded to have failed here but have won domestics from LVG to Jose, ultimately it stands for very little as the measure of a United manager will always be to challenge for the league or the elite European competition.
But we could improve on our performance this season and still not win the league because City, a team with near limitless resources, could (and likely will) also improve relative to us.
So if it’s not about improvement, or how well we do relative to the resources available… you’re saying it basically all about trophies then, are you not? Which is a perfectly valid viewpoint to hold, but you also seem to be now be claiming that is in fact not what you’re saying - hence my confusion.
Without Rice they would have won the league 
The problem is some people almost wear that as a badge of honour though mate. "Aye, we were shite but still won a cup or made a cup final".
I mean, we've done that ourselves the previous 10 years, it's not where I'd rather be. If some people are all about the trophies, then maybe they would, and that's a fair enough viewpoint as well.
without experimenting with Havertz in midfield, arsenal would've won the leagueWithout Rice they would have won the league
We beat City and Chelsea to win that FA Cup, there was nothing flukey about it.
I think the reason it’s often forgotten is because opposition fans don’t really care how far a team goes in domestic cup competitions - it’s just a convenient argument to discredit a Manager you don’t rate.
Xhaka is the heart of the historic Leverkusen team, it wouldn't be far fetched to say things might've gone differently had they convinced him to stayWithout Rice they would have won the league
Nailed on to be honest. Spent 100M to lose the league
Must have been a pretty rough 20 years to be an Arsenal fan if you can't get any joy out of being a bit shite but winning the FA Cup.
It's not all about trophies but they are an eventual formality that do matter when you become one of the clubs at that end of the table and you're spending large amounts of money in order to try and obtain one. You can have a dip like Liverpool some seasons and win nothing but still be challenging. They've won different types of trophies while challenging for the title or the title itself and have gone seasons without winning, but the winning of one odd cup here and there has maintained that success and trust in the squad and manager.
Do you think Arsenal spent money in the summer to try and finish 2nd again?
I admit it's already weird behaviour to be an Arsenal fan and log into a United forum to talk about Arsenal, but it's properly deranged to log into a United forum as an Everton fan and give out about Arsenal. Do you have literally nothing better to do than this.
I didn't say I didn't get joy from it, of course I did, but i just don't judge how good my football team is soleley on winning the occasional domestic cup. Otherwise we'd have just kept Wenger.
You seem rattled.
It is funny how when a manager goes trophyless then it's used a stick to beat them over the head with on how they're not winners, have a losers mentality etc.
But look at the long list of managers who have won domestic trophies in England over the last 15 years or so - and they're mostly seen as laughing stocks on here - Roberto Martinez, Laudrup, Alex Mcleish, De Matteo, Dalglish, Juande Ramos, Harry Redknapp, Brendan Rodgers. You'd be hard pressed to find a single poster who rates any of these managers, and yet domestic trophies are somehow super important when it's convenient for the discussion.
Mad they spent 100M to lose the league I'd say
Not sure either is weird. Folks are on here to discuss football. Fans of all teams, discussing all teams. You appear to be taking umbrage because of criticism directed at the team you support.
Back to us, I'd prioritise a pacy winger this summer to both take the pressure off Saka and give us some variety, ideally on both sides.
I'd say goodbye to Partey and replace him (who with? No idea).
If we've got 65m knocking about after that then Sesko.
I'd say goodbye to Partey and replace him (who with? No idea).
If we've got 65m knocking about after that then Sesko.
I think if you bypass some of the obvious attempts at point scoring and trolling posts, it's still an interesting discussion / debate to have. I mean, we'll likely have a pocket of crazy Arsenal fans that will think Arteta should go now because he has 'failed again'.
If I'm being honest, 1 of the most frustrating games for me this season was the cup exit to Liverpool. We should have been 3 or 4 up in that game, and ended up losing it to a late set piece of and a break away goal.
So, although it might not sound like it with my previous posts, I do place a lot of importance on the FA Cup, I'd be lying if I didn't.
You think Liverpool retained the services of Klopp for the last four years, where they won neither CL or PL, because they won a couple domestic cups? Do you think they were going to sack him, but changed their mind because of two League Cups and an FA Cup? Or maybe, just maybe, the trust the club has in Klopp comes from them believing he has done a fantastic job during his tenure with the resources available and has little to nothing to do League Cup victories.It's not all about trophies but they are an eventual formality that do matter when you become one of the clubs at that end of the table and you're spending large amounts of money in order to try and obtain one. You can have a dip like Liverpool some seasons and win nothing but still be challenging. They've won different types of trophies while challenging for the title or the title itself and have gone seasons without winning, but the winning of one odd cup here and there has maintained that success and trust in the squad and manager.
Do you think Arsenal spent money in the summer to try and finish 2nd again?
Will we spend this summer? Probably, like every other team. Will we do so to “try and finish 2nd again”? No… because we didn’t try to finish 2nd this year. We tried to finish 1st and ended up a little short of literally the most dominant team the PL has ever seen.
Once again, it’s completely fine to judge success solely by the trophies won and discount seasons where a team misses out even by the narrowest of margins. But judging by that metric, Everton are a complete non-entity. Which, I believe, is not how either of us view them.
Yeah fair enough and I love to win cups, but let's be honest this team is 1000x better than the one that won the FA Cup and finished 5th in 2017 and it's mostly Mikel Arteta's doing.
Was also fuming about that defeat to Liverpool but I'm not sure the manager did much wrong there!
I just don't understand why you're going to the extremes of non-entity? I haven't said Arsenal are a non-entity for not winning trophies. I've said for a top club, at some stage you need to add the trophies to that résumé, you can't just challenge or get close. Plus you're also comparing two different extremes, Everton and Arsenal aren't comparable in the same metrics of success. Liverpool and Arsenal are as they're two of the sides that have been competing and around City during this decade and have spent roughly the same.
+ I think they retained the services of Klopp because he was winning trophies and getting to finals of both domestic and European cups consistently and winning them and what I've said is that Arteta will need to start doing so sooner rather than later in order for his services to be retained by Arsenal in my opinion.
Not weird at all, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. We're family here.
Not sure how things will look next year. Pool might see a bit of decline logically, but who knows. I think we may be doomed to be bridesmaids unless Arteta can find another level. We need to spend as well to get there and unlike City who can cook the books we have limits there. I don't expect the other teams to massively improve. The biggest mover might be Chelsea.
We need to have a decent cup run next year. An FA cup for me is top of the list. We will be competitive in the league but City will probably put away it's last 10 games again with relative ease. City just find it too easy to kill off other teams.
We need to have a decent cup run next year. An FA cup for me is top of the list. We will be competitive in the league but City will probably put away it's last 10 games again with relative ease. City just find it too easy to kill off other teams.
A world where Arteta should be sacked for falling just short, irrespective of context (City have more money, better first XI, deeper squad, arguably the greatest Manager of all time and 115 charges against them) is a world where Everton is non-entity as a club. You can’t have it both ways - either context matters or it doesn’t.
And you’re free to claim that Klopp’s job was saved over the last four years by winning a couple league cups, but it’s pretty obvious that isn’t true. Also, how is being a runner-up in the Europa League final any different to being the runner-up in Premier League that goes down to final day? (Except for the fact that the PL is a far more prestigious competition?) Your arguments are contradictory and all over the place.
I’ll be honest, when we were crap under LVG in his second season but won the FA cup, I didn’t really hugely enjoy it. I mean it was alright, but I would rather see some sustained, entertaining football (like say arsenal this season) without a second rate trophy, rather than be crap but win an FA cup.
I know it doesn’t have to be either or, but that’s the scenario that you posed there. Obviously if it’s a CL or PL trophy that’s different, but an FA cup or league cup wouldn’t override being crap for me.
Feel like they're just getting started and have a really young core if they can keep them together.
Saka, Rice, Odegaard, Sailba are all WC players.
The supporting cast of Havertz, Martinelli, Gabriel, White, Raya would make it into most PL teams bar City.
Sure they could use some upgrades (rotation for Saka, some more variety in attack with a guy like Sesko, sort the LB situation) but hopefully for them they peak when Pep's gone and win a title or two. They won't go the Liverpool way where their peak happens to coincide with City's peak.
Saka, Rice, Odegaard, Sailba are all WC players.
The supporting cast of Havertz, Martinelli, Gabriel, White, Raya would make it into most PL teams bar City.
Sure they could use some upgrades (rotation for Saka, some more variety in attack with a guy like Sesko, sort the LB situation) but hopefully for them they peak when Pep's gone and win a title or two. They won't go the Liverpool way where their peak happens to coincide with City's peak.
I think it's fair to suggest that a historically (and currently) massive club like Arsenal needs to win major trophies at some point again soon.
However, the elephant in the room is that the only reason Arsenal haven't won a major trophy recently, and indeed today, is because the most illegitimate and corrupt club in the history of sport continues to get away with rampant cheating to win again and again.
However, the elephant in the room is that the only reason Arsenal haven't won a major trophy recently, and indeed today, is because the most illegitimate and corrupt club in the history of sport continues to get away with rampant cheating to win again and again.
Uhm sure, if you want to view it that way. I didn't say he should be sacked this summer either. I said he should be under pressure to win a trophy next season and if not, assess where the team is and if a better manager can come in to deliver that. Context does matter, yeah, and you're applying the same context of success to Everton and Arsenal? That's very odd and makes no sense.
They're not contradictory. You're just not reading what I'm saying and narrowing it down to league cups and EL finals.
He made two CL finals, he won a CL, he won a PL, he won multiple league cups, EL final, finished 2nd multiple times with 90+ points, FA Cup etc. You've managed to reduce Klopp's résumé down to League Cups and an EL final somehow. When you have that, you can afford dips of no trophies in a season, but if you're going season by season with Jo trophies at all then no, I don't think it's acceptable for a historically and current top club? I'm surprised if others do.
Young and now gaining massive experience at the sharp end of title races. In excellent shape for the final step next season.
I haven’t don’t that at all, that’s a huge straw man. I’ve stated several times that I’m talking about the last four years. Klopp hasn’t won either of the most prestigious trophies in any of the full seasons in which Arteta has been Manager. His resume since 2020 literally is “League Cups and an EL final” (plus an FA Cup… which Arteta has also won within that time).
So the question was, do you think that’s what kept Klopp in his job?
This is pretty much where I’m at. I think with some smart additions we might be able to pip Pep next season (we are slowly closing the gap). But they are likely to invest well in the summer. Their recruitment wasn’t at their usual high level last summer and I can’t imagine that’s going to be the case two years in a row.
Yeah, no. You're not 'pipping' Pep to anything. Either you blow them away in the first half of the season like Liverpool did or you wait for Pep to leave.