Did you get a trophy for that?
Arsenal 2023/24 - Born to be runner up
- Thread starter horsechoker
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I feel like this is a big opportunity missed. I'm not saying that Arsenal won't improve, because I think they will, but you caught United and Spurs at very good times in the season and I wouldn't bank on getting those points again next time. I also expect that the teams coming up next season will be far more of a challenge compared to the dross that came up last year, in terms of quality it feels like this was a historically bad year from top to bottom.
City weren't at their best and the likes of United, Chelsea, Newcastle and Spurs can only improve over the next season or two and surely can't be that unlucky with injuries again. Most of Arsenal's players will be on international duty this summer so squad depth will be even more important next season and we all know how City like to stockpile talent.
Sorry mate. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
You know who else treats City like the big dogs? Real fecking Madrid. Under Carlo Ancelotti.
They literally are the best team in the league. If Arsenal won the title, they'd have had the best season among all the teams. But City are still the best team in the league. Who's going to argue that?
And about them "showing supremacy in every single game" at the end of the season. Please tell me this is not the first title race with City you're watching. That's literally their MO. Has nothing to do with the Arsenal match this season. They did it last season, and twice to Liverpool in recent years.
Look, I wish Arsenal were open at the Etihad and got destroyed. But I can also grudgingly respect a proper professional performance from them.
You know who else treats City like the big dogs? Real fecking Madrid. Under Carlo Ancelotti.
They literally are the best team in the league. If Arsenal won the title, they'd have had the best season among all the teams. But City are still the best team in the league. Who's going to argue that?
And about them "showing supremacy in every single game" at the end of the season. Please tell me this is not the first title race with City you're watching. That's literally their MO. Has nothing to do with the Arsenal match this season. They did it last season, and twice to Liverpool in recent years.
Look, I wish Arsenal were open at the Etihad and got destroyed. But I can also grudgingly respect a proper professional performance from them.
Well if you think that's annoying, wait until the "does Arteta need to win a trophy?" and the "Arteta under pressure" stories start when/if you fall 6 or 7pts behind City next season.
Problem is one team is cheating (has cheated) and the other 19 are being judged against their standards, which makes it impossible.
I don't support Arsenal.
Plus, Arteta was part of this evil empire not too long ago, so feck him.
Normally I'd agree depending on circumstances, such as your team being ravaged by injuries and suspensions, you do what you gotta do. I felt Arsenal were more cowardly than professional if you look at the stats. Liverpool are only a shadow of themselves but looked like equals when they went to the Etihad this year, with an inferior team.
Every version of this claim always ignores two things in the interest of narrative:
1) Arsenal had been firing on all cylinders, but then started badly breaking down right before and during the international break. Martinelli and Saka were both hurt going into the break, neither trained at all until the day before the City match, and were both complete shadows of themselves in the period right afterward. Jesus was recovering, playing in pain, and offering almost no threat at all. We had next to nothing in the front line and with Partey, Zinchenko, and Tomiyasu still hurt or only fit for the bench we were still being forced into a makeshift defensive lineup that included Kiwior at LB and Jorginho holding, two players not well suited to an open game.
2) From the day after the City-Arsenal match onward, both sides played nine games and City had an expected points of 21.18 and Arsenal an expected points of 21.03. City finished better (way above XG) and was more dominant in the matches where they were romping but they were still very very vulnerable in multiple matches among those last nine. The difference was that on the day Arsenal were most vulnerable Villa took their chances whereas in the two matches City put in mediocre performances Forest and Spurs scored zero goals on a combined XG of 4. You can write this big psychological narrative but basically the two sides each played very good but not consistently dominant football and the title was decided by tiny margins and the finishing boots of opponents during the matches when each faltered.
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These are all things that are said every season. Arsenal will be up there again next season and the others you listed won't. Given the context of City, being up there challenging is all you can ask.
You mean to say all these teams will give tough fight to Arsenal and roll over to City? Isn't that what is already happening. I would love United, Spurs and Chelsea to improve and give a tough fight to City just like arsenal. Watching them win every season is plain boring. Rivalry apart we need someone to give proper fight to City as FA is not going to do anything for #115.
Arsenal just had a season with the second highest non-Pep XG differential in the PL since 2014-15. It wasn't enough to beat City and I don't know whether it will be enough next year either. But the gap between Arsenal and everybody else is very large (assuming Liverpool falls back to the pack with Klopp leaving).
If City get a point deduction next year or just falters under the distraction of the court case and Pep's likely departure, Arsenal will be the strong favorites to win the title. If Pep fecks off after next year, we're very likely to win at least one title in the years afterward. Coming close is always a missed opportunity but the future still looks incredibly bright.
I won't be too worried unless City is exonerated on all charges and Pep announces that he has penned a new five year contract. But football will be dead anyway at that point.
Usually when I see (here and elsewhere) people talk about "a trophy" it's in the context of arguing s omething like 4th place and miles off the title pace plus a league cup is somehow better than 2nd and title challenge which I can never agree with. I just don't care about the league cup in any way and even the FA Cup without a strong league or CL season just becomes banter.
Of course 89 pts with the FA Cup is better than 89 pts without in isolation.
But if Arteta and Edu do keep all the key players and strengthen the squad I won't really consider this era a success unless they win the league or (in some miracle) the CL. The Kroenkes are clearing backing them with enough resources to win the league and that's how they will ultimately be judged. Another domestic cup really doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. Whether Arteta wins one (which he has already done) or two FA Cups it's not really going to change the perception of his era if he can't win a league.
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Yeah we were laughing when they got a bunch of our starters. It was hilarious.
Dropped too many points in the 2023 portion of the season. When you challenge this City side you know you're gonna need 90+ points to win the league. Arsenal dropped 20 points in the first 20 games. Left themselves with a margin for error of no more than 3 points, with a trip to Manchester still to go in 2024
I think context is also important because Arsenal went into that game full of confidence, above City and were smashing teams for fun. City, on the other hand, weren't altogether that convincing at that point. An Arsenal win might have not changed anything in the grand scheme of things but I think it could have done psychological damage to City.
Yes, we did and it's beautiful
Not true at all.
We went into that match in a quiet injury crisis not having smashed anybody since four weeks previously and with our last two games being a desperate last minute winner at home against a Brentford side in free fall and then massively struggling to beat Porto 1-0 over 120 minutes at home and needing penalties to get through the tie.
People are looking at our flying February form but we played City March 31 and a lot changed for the club for the worse over that month.
Yeah, Arteta was still experimenting. Remember he started the first few games of the season with Partey at RB, the Havertz in midfield experiment went for a while longer. It cost them in the end. Taking 0/6 points vs Villa and 1/6 vs Fulham was a problem
Must have been a very quiet one, since I don't really see anyone bar Timber missing from either the starting XI or the bench when it comes to the strongest ~15 players in the squad (if whatever I googled are the correct lineups). Could of course have been lots of players playing with minor injuries but I think that's been more or less the case for pretty much all teams in this incredibly injury-ridden season, but having only one potential starter completely out in perhaps the biggest game of the season is a luxury very few teams have been granted this season - if any.
Anyway, they of course didn't bottle the title and I think the overwhelming majority would agree they had a very strong campaign that just didn't go all the way. They'll look back and think that they should've gotten more points around Christmas/New years but you can't never lose points, and the overall quality of the league means that even the teams in the bottom half of the table can do you on an unlucky day.
Probably a bit disappointed to go out against West Ham in the league cup, but there's no shame in going out to Liverpool in the FA Cup and Bayern Munich in the Champions League even though they are of course beatable.
Think the priority for them in the transfer window has to be an out-and-out striker and probably some high quality subs that can ease the workload a fair bit, especially for Saka as I believe the minutes he's playing probably have to be reduced if they want him to be healthy for the years to come.
Yes, this is correct. Although we got back into it in the second half, we left ourselves too much to do.
City finish crazy strong and you need to be leading at Christmas by a reasonable margin. Took us a while to get going and I hope Arteta is not experimenting at the start of this season.
Still, we need more results from the rest of the PL against City during the final stretch. I thought for sure they would drop points once....
I actually don't get what Rodri is saying. Arsenal played for a draw, so it gave them a big psychological boost and that's what won it? I can't remember the stat but it's something like they've won something ridiculous like 60+ games out of 70+ games from February onwards I had heard over the years. They were already unbeaten from December to end of that game at end of March. They are unbeaten at home since December 2022. But they needed that confidence booster of drawing with Arsenal to get them.over the line?
Maybe we should have opened up and let them beat us 4-1 then, that could have really dented their confidence then.
Maybe we should have opened up and let them beat us 4-1 then, that could have really dented their confidence then.
If you're just catching up things by googling the lineup then it will look that way but anybody who actually was following the side closely that month knows its true. Lots of players only fit enough for the bench or, like Saka and Jesus, who were pressed into service in the starting lineup but way out of shape and form because they had hardly trained for the last two weeks. We really didn't have the squad at that moment to go to the Etihad and play an open match where we would need to be at our sharpest to win. Playing for a draw and hoping to catch them on the counter was a good strategy under the circumstances and it worked out fine.
If they looked like equals them they didn't do much with it, because the xG in that game was 1.38 v 0.56, whereas the xG in the Arsenal game was 0.85 v 0.73, according to xG philosophy.
Liverpool had 8 shots, 3 on target, whereas Arsenal had 6 shots, 2 on target. Not a massive difference considering how bold Liverpool are supposed to have been.
Actually, even the bold, brave Liverpool with their attacking talent over the years didn't beat a Pep team at The Etihad in the league the past 7 years or so.
Regardless of whether it actually makes sense or not, the mentality might be something akin to "for a new challenger without championship bona fides, if you want to be champion/king, you have to take the crown". There is no better way of proving that mettle than taking the game to the champions on their home turf. By not doing that, Arsenal showed that they were not ready to be Champions and City could sense that as well, giving them a boost. Once you have championship credentials, then you could call such moves shrewd, savvy, or pragmatic, but before then it's just cowardly.
There. I tried.
I just find it funny that when Arsenal do it it's cowardly. When Mourinho does it it used to be a masterclass. And when Arsenal used to open up and get shat on away at the big teams we were called naive and stupid. It's hard to keep on top of what your 'meant to do.'
See for me, the bottom line is that City are still a stronger team, especially at home. They have the best manager, they have the best defensive midfielder, they had the best attacking midfielder of the past 5 years, they have the player of the year as another attacking midfielder, they have the best striker in the world up front.
I've seen better teams than this current Arsenal team try to take on City at The Emirates and fail. Even Real Madrid learnt their lesson between last season and this season.
I mean...Rodri is one of those guys in the mold of other Pep players that complains about the "negative" approach other teams take to a game when it doesn't go his team's way.
I think the stuff you're talking about is just a minor annoyance until Arsenal get over the finish line on the league win, at which point it becomes harder to question the approach. Mourinho won pretty much from the outset, so his tactics can be a masterclass.
I mean, after schooling Arsenal for several years, regularly scoring 3, 4 and even 5 against them, they couldn't beat Arsenal in 3 games against them this season, scored 1 goal and their goal scorer isn't at the club any more, created very little...yeah forgive me if I can see an ulterior motive for suddenly criticising Arsenal's approach in a game. It's certainly much more fun for Rodri and City if the games were more like previous seasons.
We do have to work on being more productive on the counter. I honestly don't feel we had the personnel on the litch that day to be effective there. We need improve there and probably bring in another player or two for that.
Also, I think too many teams have City penned in as a loss now and the effort is minimal.
Also, I think too many teams have City penned in as a loss now and the effort is minimal.
Bottlers
Arsenal accomplished this without cheating. Hats off to the real PL winners.
Agreed, not sure why net spend is used, just means a club is better at selling than another, doesn't represent what jhas been spent.
Net spend is complete BS, successful clubs don't buy players based on how much they might recoup when they sell them, indeed they'll be delighted if they get little back, because if that is the case then the chances are they bought the right player
A season of such high level performances without a single trophy must feel disappointing.
On one hand, Arsenal need to start competing on all fronts and start becoming consistent trophy winners whatever the trophy is, Arsenal should be competing strongly for it. You don’t become a top club / team by focusing on one competition. And building mindset where trophy winning is normal is a must - their last one must have been 3-4 years back?!
On the other hand, they (the team not fans)need to just stick with whatever they’re doing on a footballing level and keep at it. Becuase while 115FC keeps winning, eventually their level will drop and Arsenal are perfectly placed (should they maintain their level) to capitalise. Even if it doesn’t lead to domination it could lead to 1 or 2 PL titles before the next great City cycle.
On one hand, Arsenal need to start competing on all fronts and start becoming consistent trophy winners whatever the trophy is, Arsenal should be competing strongly for it. You don’t become a top club / team by focusing on one competition. And building mindset where trophy winning is normal is a must - their last one must have been 3-4 years back?!
On the other hand, they (the team not fans)need to just stick with whatever they’re doing on a footballing level and keep at it. Becuase while 115FC keeps winning, eventually their level will drop and Arsenal are perfectly placed (should they maintain their level) to capitalise. Even if it doesn’t lead to domination it could lead to 1 or 2 PL titles before the next great City cycle.
Looking at Havertz' stats, I think it would really have to be a great striker or a Sesko who is very young and would only play a squad role. Arteta was talking about a 25 goal striker. That's not Havertz but maybe he could get close to 20? He had 8 goals 7 assists from his 18 starts up front. That's some great production there. If he could carry close to those numbers into next season, it makes a good case to spend our transfer budget elsewhere. Looks like a durable player too! All in all this had to have been one of the best of years for him. Also looks to have adjusted very well.
Jose: "It's a fear of failure (FoF)"
Hey man, this is very much a relevant bump, so I'm not mad at it.
I am calling BS on Rodri's quotes, though.
“Arsenal also they deserve, they did an unbelievable season, but I think the difference was in here [points to his head]. When they came here, they faced us at the Etihad, I saw them and said ‘Ah, these guys, they don't want to beat us, they just want a draw’. And that mentality, I don't think we would do it the same way."
He's talking in hypotheticals as if City didn't play Arsenal away. They did... and they lost.
Of course Rodri is going to say the difference between the teams is the mental strength of the players. What's else is he going to say? "The difference between the teams is that one has the backing of an entire nation state and is facing 115 charges from the very league it has just won".
Lance Armstrong wrote a book called 'It's Not About The Bike'. The title was absolutely accurate. It wasn't about the bike. However, it also wasn't just about his mental strength, either - despite what the contents of the book said. He was doped to the gills.
There are many reason why Arsenal are not champions, both internal and external to the club. The psychological boost City took from being held to a draw at home ain't one of them, though.
City didn't show their supremacy in every game since. They only took maximum points against Forest and Spurs because Woods and Son didn't have their shooting boots on. Woods especially missed not one, but two, chances from mere yards out.
But, for argument's sake, lets say that City were mentally invincible in the run-in. Are we really saying that this mythical self-belief that "they are the best team in league" came from being held to a draw at home by Arsenal? Or maybe, just maybe, such belief would come from the fact they won the league for the last three seasons and are reigning European Champions?
Yeah, it's absolute nonsense saying they bottled it. To bottle' a league is when you're in a secure position but lose a lot of points in the run in and not just a single game: it's what Newcastle did in 96, what we did in 2012, and maybe you could argue last year with Arsenal, but they've been absolutely brilliant this year, same with Liverpool that season they got 90 something points and finished second place (think it was a single draw against Spurs that cost them?).
Sad fact for them is that they worked extremely hard, have done an incredible rebuild but have come up against a financially doped team with a great manager. Sucks to be them and for the rest of the league I guess, but it is what it is.
if City drew with West Ham, would they be bottling it?