Are you confident of success in the INEOS era?

Cautiously optimistic, yes. I mean, what else can you do as a supporter of the club? Confident of success in the INEOS era: not really, no.

For an institution of Manchester United's stature, “success” has a specific definition: repeatedly winning the Premier League title and earnestly contending for the European Cup, while playing entertaining football and doing justice to the core principles of the club. That's what we did when we succeeded under Matt Busby and Alex Ferguson, and that seems unrealistic in a period dominated by Manchester City on the domestic front, with their limitless resources, streamlined organization and presence of one of the absolute greatest managers of all time in Pep Guardiola, not to mention lack of scruples. Unless they suddenly crash and burn, we might repeatedly hit a brick wall, even if the INEOS project takes off and starts bearing fruit. Liverpool stumbled upon a really good technical/sporting director in Michael Edwards and had the great fortune of picking up one of greatest managers of the last 20 years in Jürgen Klopp (while going on an absolute tear in terms of recruitment and individual/collective development), but still struggled to consistently win silverware, ending up with 1 Premier League title, 1 European Cup, 1 FA Cup and 2 League Cups over a decade-ish vs. 6 Premier League titles, 1 European Cup, 2 FA Cups and 6 League Cups for Manchester City. Not to mention the likes of Real Madrid on the continental front, who dashed their European Cup winning aspirations on multiples occasions. They succeeded in a relative sense, re-established themselves as a Top 2 team in England, and ended their excruciatingly long league title drought, but the success was not emphatic by any means (like it was under Bob Paisley, for example).

The benchmark for success is so, so, so high (both internally and externally), and there's very little margin for error across innumerable moving parts, with regard to appointment of the right executives, the right manager(s) and coaches, signing the right players, selling certain players at the right time, putting the right systems in place, making the right decisions on the right occasions (on and off the pitch), establishing the right culture, developing players and the team at large in the right way and so forth, year in and year out — even one aspect being substandard, in comparison with the chasing pack led by the likes of Arsenal, let alone the seemingly unstoppable machine across Manchester, could make all the difference.

Also, any sort of “confidence” has to be rooted in something tangible, some sort of objective evidence, otherwise you're merely hoping for success in the ether. Manchester United is not being led by Florentino Pérez and coached by Pep Guardiola with Juni Calafat as recruiter-in-chief now. Jim Ratcliffe and Dave Brailsford, who have the majority vote in the new executive committee, have not overseen organizations that have won anything of note in football thus far, or built genuine title contenders in France and Switzerland.

Omar Berrada, the new chief executive, was part of extremely successful clubs in Barcelona and Manchester City, who collectively won 5 La Liga titles, 8 Premier League titles, 4 European Cups et cetera while he was there, but those organizations were primarily led by the likes of Joan Laporta, Pep Guardiola, Ferran Soriano, Txiki Begiristain — we don't know how much influence Berrada wielded, especially in a sporting sense as he was a marketing or commercial director for a majority of that period. Dan Ashworth did quite well in a developmental capacity with England, but positive development over a period of time ≠ guarantee of success as a sporting director at a major club in the most competitive and punishing league in club football. Jason Wilcox also did well at Manchester City as a youth coach and academy director, but we don't know how that translates to First Team level as a technical director. Good resumés, no doubt about that, and I'm sure these people will give their all to turn things around, but you would have to be the best-of-the-best (and incredibly lucky, luck always plays a role in these situations!) to turn present-day Manchester United into a serial winner. They might turn out to be the best-of-the-best in due time for all we know, future success is not exclusively the domain of people with quantifiable, pre-established records of success, but it wouldn't be rational to be overly enthusiastic at this juncture, when they have everything to prove.

Lots of uncertainities and unknowns and variables, suffice to say. Especially now, when the new appointments are just getting started. So, yes, cautiously optimistic, but not necessarily confident.
 
My confidence in INEOS is severely eroding day by day

ETH and his handling
Recent signings (reading about how alarmed Bayern were about De Ligts drop off is insane to then buy him)
Asking for public money to fund stadium redevelopment
The brutal axing of over 250 low paid staff

And now to top it off the utterly disgraceful treatment of the greatest manger the game has ever seen. Booting out SAF is an absolute disgrace

Mark my words this lot will fail and Sir Jim will be out on his arse in 18 months. It’s worse than under the Glazers this !
 
My confidence in INEOS is severely eroding day by day

ETH and his handling
Recent signings (reading about how alarmed Bayern were about De Ligts drop off is insane to then buy him)
Asking for public money to fund stadium redevelopment
The brutal axing of over 250 low paid staff

And now to top it off the utterly disgraceful treatment of the greatest manger the game has ever seen. Booting out SAF is an absolute disgrace

Mark my words this lot will fail and Sir Jim will be out on his arse in 18 months. It’s worse than under the Glazers this !
It feels awful, but the question is whether or not these people were needed or if the club just has become bloated.
I guess some of them also were forced to quit because they couldn't travel to an office.

Imagine if this would be INEOS' legacy.
 
It really depends on how City look post Pep / 115 charges. I think Liverpool will drop off, Slot is maintaining what Klopp put in place but it’s not clear if he will be able to replace stalwarts like Alison, VVD, and Salah and get them playing to the same level consistently.

But we definitely need a reducing of standards from our rivals in order to get back in the mix in the mid term.

And definitely not under ETH
 
I think we need to see some kind of tangible footballing identity on the pitch and see it soon.

So far, it's been more of the same from the last few years. Perhaps to an even more worrying degree. I know the new structure is only in place since the summer but surely Ashworth and Wilcox had very clear ideas about the style of play, formation and ethos of the team, when they were being interviewed for the roles they took up.

This season, so far, has just been lurching from one problem to another with no shape and no identity and playing like a championship side away from home to a top premier league outfit to scrape a draw at Villa.

It's been far from promising so far. None of the new signings have shown anything resembling a glimmer of hope they can reinvigorate the side.
 
Cautiously optimistic, yes. I mean, what else can you do as a supporter of the club? Confident of success in the INEOS era: not really, no.

For an institution of Manchester United's stature, “success” has a specific definition: repeatedly winning the Premier League title and earnestly contending for the European Cup, while playing entertaining football and doing justice to the core principles of the club. That's what we did when we succeeded under Matt Busby and Alex Ferguson, and that seems unrealistic in a period dominated by Manchester City on the domestic front, with their limitless resources, streamlined organization and presence of one of the absolute greatest managers of all time in Pep Guardiola, not to mention lack of scruples. Unless they suddenly crash and burn, we might repeatedly hit a brick wall, even if the INEOS project takes off and starts bearing fruit. Liverpool stumbled upon a really good technical/sporting director in Michael Edwards and had the great fortune of picking up one of greatest managers of the last 20 years in Jürgen Klopp (while going on an absolute tear in terms of recruitment and individual/collective development), but still struggled to consistently win silverware, ending up with 1 Premier League title, 1 European Cup, 1 FA Cup and 2 League Cups over a decade-ish vs. 6 Premier League titles, 1 European Cup, 2 FA Cups and 6 League Cups for Manchester City. Not to mention the likes of Real Madrid on the continental front, who dashed their European Cup winning aspirations on multiples occasions. They succeeded in a relative sense, re-established themselves as a Top 2 team in England, and ended their excruciatingly long league title drought, but the success was not emphatic by any means (like it was under Bob Paisley, for example).

The benchmark for success is so, so, so high (both internally and externally), and there's very little margin for error across innumerable moving parts, with regard to appointment of the right executives, the right manager(s) and coaches, signing the right players, selling certain players at the right time, putting the right systems in place, making the right decisions on the right occasions (on and off the pitch), establishing the right culture, developing players and the team at large in the right way and so forth, year in and year out — even one aspect being substandard, in comparison with the chasing pack led by the likes of Arsenal, let alone the seemingly unstoppable machine across Manchester, could make all the difference.

Also, any sort of “confidence” has to be rooted in something tangible, some sort of objective evidence, otherwise you're merely hoping for success in the ether. Manchester United is not being led by Florentino Pérez and coached by Pep Guardiola with Juni Calafat as recruiter-in-chief now. Jim Ratcliffe and Dave Brailsford, who have the majority vote in the new executive committee, have not overseen organizations that have won anything of note in football thus far, or built genuine title contenders in France and Switzerland.

Omar Berrada, the new chief executive, was part of extremely successful clubs in Barcelona and Manchester City, who collectively won 5 La Liga titles, 8 Premier League titles, 4 European Cups et cetera while he was there, but those organizations were primarily led by the likes of Joan Laporta, Pep Guardiola, Ferran Soriano, Txiki Begiristain — we don't know how much influence Berrada wielded, especially in a sporting sense as he was a marketing or commercial director for a majority of that period. Dan Ashworth did quite well in a developmental capacity with England, but positive development over a period of time ≠ guarantee of success as a sporting director at a major club in the most competitive and punishing league in club football. Jason Wilcox also did well at Manchester City as a youth coach and academy director, but we don't know how that translates to First Team level as a technical director. Good resumés, no doubt about that, and I'm sure these people will give their all to turn things around, but you would have to be the best-of-the-best (and incredibly lucky, luck always plays a role in these situations!) to turn present-day Manchester United into a serial winner. They might turn out to be the best-of-the-best in due time for all we know, future success is not exclusively the domain of people with quantifiable, pre-established records of success, but it wouldn't be rational to be overly enthusiastic at this juncture, when they have everything to prove.

Lots of uncertainities and unknowns and variables, suffice to say. Especially now, when the new appointments are just getting started. So, yes, cautiously optimistic, but not necessarily confident.
Bingo. Brilliant post that pretty much sums up how I feel as well.
 
Not very confident at all.

I was initially dead against INEOS becoming minority owners since I didn't want the Glazers parasitic grip over the club being prolonged, and it feels that Ratcliffe's minority buyout was a lifeline for the Glazers just as it looked like they were finally on their way out. However I was willing to get behind the project considering INEOS were (initially) making the right noises in terms of aligning ambitions and hiring supposed best in class footballing personnel.

However since then I've been less than impressed.

  • Laying off tons of staff while enforcing a return to office mandate. Just reeks of out of touch billionaire boss shenanigans.
  • Stubbornly backing a manager that has us in 14th because they couldn't admit they made a wrong and indecisive decision in the summer.
  • Binning our greatest manager's ambassadorial role. Yes it might be a mutually accepted decision, but the optics are awful and I feel there are more pressing priorities to address....like our existing manager.
  • Waiting a year to procure the services of supposedly the 'best in class' director of football, who seems hellbent on us recruiting Gareth Southgate and allegedly Eddie Howe, while overseeing transfers in the summer that haven't really improved us. Early days to judge but so far I'm not seeing why we waited so long for him to be available if this is the 'best in class' proficiency we've come to expect.
I'll judge them conclusively after a more realistic period, but I feel like my initial concerns are being unfortunately dignified, and on our current trajectory I feel little to be excited about, save for perhaps a new stadium.
 
My confidence in INEOS is severely eroding day by day

ETH and his handling
Recent signings (reading about how alarmed Bayern were about De Ligts drop off is insane to then buy him)
Asking for public money to fund stadium redevelopment
The brutal axing of over 250 low paid staff

And now to top it off the utterly disgraceful treatment of the greatest manger the game has ever seen. Booting out SAF is an absolute disgrace

Mark my words this lot will fail and Sir Jim will be out on his arse in 18 months. It’s worse than under the Glazers this !
This feels to me like you've formed your opinion from newspaper headlines.

ETH - given that they didn't employ ETH in the first place, if they hadn't looked at the managerial market they'd have been criticised after how the season had gone, the fact they did look at the market was also criticised. They elected to stick rather than twist which was sensible given any managerial hunt needed their football structure to be in place which it wasn't at the time. It is now so if a change happens we will be better positioned for it.
Signings - two months ago everyone was saying they were the best things since sliced bread. Admittedly I wasn't one of them, but there is certainly logic in most of the signings and the age profile is clearly better than in the past.
Public money - the public money isn't for the stadium it's for the regeneration around the area which would be done concurrently with the stadium. Those are public areas, which would create jobs and prosperity in the areas immediately around the stadium benefitting those local and as a result it is right that the council, government and relevant bodies are involved with funding those parts. I don't recall any outcry when City received public money when redeveloping the Etihad Campus area for these reasons.
Redundancies - it was pretty brutal, and good people did lose their jobs. I know people that did. But there was also an acceptance from some I know that left that Manchester United as a company had been allowed to become very bloated. The Glazers hands off approach meant that there had been nearly 20 years of zero accountability in certain areas of the wider business. It was necessary to streamline things to an extent.
SAF - You can't grumble about the club getting rid of normal employees in one breathe and then in the next breathe moan about the club and Sir Alex amicably agreeing to end a contract that has cost the club over £2m a year for over a decade. Just stopping paying Sir Alex for doing nothing is the equivalent to nearly 60 staff on the average UK salary.
 
I was initially, but from the summer on it seems to have not gone well at all.

Signings have not worked out well at all (spent money unwisely??)
Handling of the managerial position (Think nmost agree Erik is unable to turn this around with what he has available)
Awful PR around the job loses (rightly or wrongly actioned)

It's gotten worse andthey need to take control and make right decisions asap
 
Confident no, they have a hard job to do.

Saying that they have done some good things so far and some not so good, they were never going to make all the right decisions that's not how things work.

Lets see how they get on, I'm optimistic at least that they are actually a set of people who want to be successful and will bring people in to help achieve success.
 
Yeah I'm confident they will get it right eventually. I think there's a good structure in place now and the developments on the stadium will be a success in it's own right.

I don't think they've handled the manager situation very well. I was supportive of giving him another shot in the summer but I think in hindsight it's probably fair to say they should have brought their own man in. I really do think they should have made a change during this international break as I don't see where a sudden uptick in form is going to come from.

My thinking on it is that when these people bed in, they'll be more comfortable making big decisions. Right now they seem hesitant to make a call on a new manager as that'll be the most obvious thing they will be judged on. They probably should be comfortable doing that from day one, everyone has experience of other clubs, but for whatever reason, it doesn't appear to be the case.
 
Their handling of the manager situation is genuinely bizarre. I have Liverpool mates who are objectively and genuinely dumbfounded by what is happening.

Up until June, it seemed like the writing was on the wall for ETH considering how quickly Arnold and Murtough were shoved out the door. It looked like he was getting sacked, then radio silence for a month as they reportedly meet coaches and then they backed him… but in the weakest way possible. He’s here by default and is just a glorified placeholder.

If that means that this season is ultimately pointless as they wait for their preferred candidate next year, then they’re both patient but inflexible. What if the preferred candidate isn’t good either? Are they writing off another season to wait for the next preferred candidate?

I hope to god they’re more flexible in their approach next year. Their preferred candidate (if they have been identified and agreed to take it on next season) is going to have some pressure on them when they start because in the fans eyes’, that person is the person INEOS sacrificed an entire fecking season for, so he better be good and they better have some alternatives lined up in case.

My hope is that come May next year, everything is set up and ready to go for the football operations perspective. We sell some of the underperforming big earners like Bruno, Rashford and Casemiro and bring in younger talent on much lower wages, who are more suited to what we want to do.
 
I think we need to see some kind of tangible footballing identity on the pitch and see it soon.

So far, it's been more of the same from the last few years. Perhaps to an even more worrying degree. I know the new structure is only in place since the summer but surely Ashworth and Wilcox had very clear ideas about the style of play, formation and ethos of the team, when they were being interviewed for the roles they took up.

This season, so far, has just been lurching from one problem to another with no shape and no identity and playing like a championship side away from home to a top premier league outfit to scrape a draw at Villa.

It's been far from promising so far. None of the new signings have shown anything resembling a glimmer of hope they can reinvigorate the side.

Actively seeking a new coach only to back the unwanted manager, under a 'there is no alternative' basis, is frankly abominable. management.

When you see the likes of Diogo Dalot failing to track back three minutes into a match. When you see players nonchalantly spaff chances. Pull out of tackles. Constantly cede possession.

You know they're thinking: what's the point?

It cannot be overstated how much an effect failing to replace EtH, in the summer, has had on the team.

Ineos have managed their optics poorly and at a hyper-scrutinised structure like United, such can get very toxic indeed.
 
Not very confident at all.

I was initially dead against INEOS becoming minority owners since I didn't want the Glazers parasitic grip over the club being prolonged, and it feels that Ratcliffe's minority buyout was a lifeline for the Glazers just as it looked like they were finally on their way out. However I was willing to get behind the project considering INEOS were (initially) making the right noises in terms of aligning ambitions and hiring supposed best in class footballing personnel.

However since then I've been less than impressed.

  • Laying off tons of staff while enforcing a return to office mandate. Just reeks of out of touch billionaire boss shenanigans.
  • Stubbornly backing a manager that has us in 14th because they couldn't admit they made a wrong and indecisive decision in the summer.
  • Binning our greatest manager's ambassadorial role. Yes it might be a mutually accepted decision, but the optics are awful and I feel there are more pressing priorities to address....like our existing manager.
  • Waiting a year to procure the services of supposedly the 'best in class' director of football, who seems hellbent on us recruiting Gareth Southgate and allegedly Eddie Howe, while overseeing transfers in the summer that haven't really improved us. Early days to judge but so far I'm not seeing why we waited so long for him to be available if this is the 'best in class' proficiency we've come to expect.
I'll judge them conclusively after a more realistic period, but I feel like my initial concerns are being unfortunately dignified, and on our current trajectory I feel little to be excited about, save for perhaps a new stadium.

So they have impressed you less because they are trying to run the club properly?

1. If a business can operate without 250 staff, it should tell you something about why we have been so poor over the years, bloated number of staff for no reason. I dont see the issue if you are not willing to go back to the office, then see you later. This isn't a charity, if you dont like the company policy you leave and many did and now there is a leaner operation.

2. They backed the manager in the summer, was perhaps wrong but, they could easily have sacked him and us being in the same position, so there was no right answer. You are also being hypocritical because in one sentence you say they were indecisive and the very next you say stubbornly backing.. so which one is it?
3. SAF is still welcome at OT, he's just not being paid by Manutd. Its not like he is short of money, people need to get over SAF, yes he was our greatest ever manager but even he was ruthless when it came to it, getting rid of players for the betterment of the club.

4. They didn't wait a year did they though? They took over in January /Feb and Ashworth was in by July. So you expect DoF results in what 2 weeks? Do you know how football transfers and that work? Planning is done months in advance, its not football manager.

Also, could you point to credible outlets or any credible evidence that Southgate was interviewed for the job? Because last time I checked, it was Tuchel, Di Zerbi and the like and nothing on Southgate. Its not the clubs fault that you chose to believe the daily mail.
 
So they have impressed you less because they are trying to run the club properly?

1. If a business can operate without 250 staff, it should tell you something about why we have been so poor over the years, bloated number of staff for no reason. I dont see the issue if you are not willing to go back to the office, then see you later. This isn't a charity, if you dont like the company policy you leave and many did and now there is a leaner operation.

2. They backed the manager in the summer, was perhaps wrong but, they could easily have sacked him and us being in the same position, so there was no right answer. You are also being hypocritical because in one sentence you say they were indecisive and the very next you say stubbornly backing.. so which one is it?
3. SAF is still welcome at OT, he's just not being paid by Manutd. Its not like he is short of money, people need to get over SAF, yes he was our greatest ever manager but even he was ruthless when it came to it, getting rid of players for the betterment of the club.

4. They didn't wait a year did they though? They took over in January /Feb and Ashworth was in by July. So you expect DoF results in what 2 weeks? Do you know how football transfers and that work? Planning is done months in advance, its not football manager.

Also, could you point to credible outlets or any credible evidence that Southgate was interviewed for the job? Because last time I checked, it was Tuchel, Di Zerbi and the like and nothing on Southgate. Its not the clubs fault that you chose to believe the daily mail.

Though I can see your points about the redundant staff and Ferguson, I implore you to think of them in terms of optics. I know 'how it looks' is not exactly how it is, but, rightly or wrongly, it matters.

You have a billionaire sacking living wage staff via email, demanding they stop working from home whilst he lives in a tax haven. He presides over a system which dithers over a new manager, precipitated by a media leak, and it ripples into team performance (the primary goal). He then sacks Ferguson.

Consider also, Ineos have paid a billion to do this and kept the Glazers onboard. Are they merely cost-cutting to manage the Glazer's debt?

It all reeks of the twin disasters of entitlement and incompetence.
 
So they have impressed you less because they are trying to run the club properly?

1. If a business can operate without 250 staff, it should tell you something about why we have been so poor over the years, bloated number of staff for no reason. I dont see the issue if you are not willing to go back to the office, then see you later. This isn't a charity, if you dont like the company policy you leave and many did and now there is a leaner operation.

The return to office mandate is ridiculously outdated in 2024, and is usually synonymous with out of touch c-suite folk and billionaire bosses who don't like the flexibility and QoL improvements it gives their workforce. Recent studies have shown its counter-intuitive from a productivity and employee retention perspective to force workers to go into the office when their job could feasibly be done at home.
2. They backed the manager in the summer, was perhaps wrong but, they could easily have sacked him and us being in the same position, so there was no right answer. You are also being hypocritical because in one sentence you say they were indecisive and the very next you say stubbornly backing.. so which one is it?
They aren't mutually exclusive. Everything was up in the air in the summer when it looked like they were going to bin him, only to change their minds after the FA cup triumph. After making that call they now seem too stubborn to admit they were wrong and are instead dithering on the inevitably outcome of him being sacked. I think everyone accepts that he's probably not going to turn things around, so all they're doing now is delaying the inevitable. Even Ed feckin Woodward would have sacked Ten Hag by now.
3. SAF is still welcome at OT, he's just not being paid by Manutd. Its not like he is short of money, people need to get over SAF, yes he was our greatest ever manager but even he was ruthless when it came to it, getting rid of players for the betterment of the club.
Again it comes down to optics. He was reportedly being paid £2million a year. For a club of United's stature that's chump change, they could afford to keep the great man in the role and without bordering too much on the morbid - he's in his 80s, its not as if he's going to be doing this for decades. We can seemingly afford to pay 'cycling guru' and Ratcliffe's mate Dave Brailsford what I'm guessing is a pretty penny for whatever role he has at the club, we can afford to give our greatest ever manager an ambassadorial role for the remainder of his life. There are other pressing concerns if we really want to split hairs on making the club 'better run'.
4. They didn't wait a year did they though? They took over in January /Feb and Ashworth was in by July. So you expect DoF results in what 2 weeks? Do you know how football transfers and that work? Planning is done months in advance, its not football manager.
They were willing to wait out his entire gardening leave period because Ratcliffe was adamant he was the guy. Granted its too early to judge his output, but from early signs I'm not exactly seeing the workings of a genius. I'll happily swallow humble pie if he ends up being a revelation for us in the years to come.
Also, could you point to credible outlets or any credible evidence that Southgate was interviewed for the job? Because last time I checked, it was Tuchel, Di Zerbi and the like and nothing on Southgate. Its not the clubs fault that you chose to believe the daily mail.
Its well documented Ashworth is big fan of Southgate's and maintains pretty close ties to him. For a while it seemed he was the favourite to takeover and probably would still be if Southgate himself didn't rule out a return to management in the near future. Also I can proudly say I never touch the Daily Mail :)
 
Though I can see your points about the redundant staff and Ferguson, I implore you to think of them in terms of optics. I know 'how it looks' is not exactly how it is, but, rightly or wrongly, it matters.

You have a billionaire sacking living wage staff via email, demanding they stop working from home whilst he lives in a tax haven. He presides over a system which dithers over a new manager, precipitated by a media leak, and it ripples into team performance (the primary goal). He then sacks Ferguson.

Consider also, Ineos have paid a billion to do this and kept the Glazers onboard. Are they merely cost-cutting to manage the Glazer's debt?

It all reeks of the twin disasters of entitlement and incompetence.
Spot on.
 
Seeing them involved in other sports and Nice, I can’t help but think we’ve jumped from one problem owner to another. Time will tell I guess
 
They got appointments for executive positions spot on. Structural issues have been addressed and it's only a matter of time before we start reaping the reward.
 
I dont know how anyone can be 'confident' or even optimistic in an organisation succeeding here when it has achieved nothing so far across multiple teams and multiple sports.

If we were destined to achieve major title success under Ineos they would have sacked the manager last April, as soon as they had the power to.

Sacking a manager is but a statement.

If we were truly destined for honours, it would depend on who we replaced EtH with.

Ineos tried and failed to do so in the summer.

It's on them.
 
I'm starting to think that they have sacrificed this season to get the man they want and will continue building a young team for them to start with.
In my mind, this is the only sensible reason for continuing with Ten Hag.
 
The elephant in the room here is we havent been a successful club consistently ever outside the Fergie era.
Busby was successful, and I know if it hadn't have been for the Munich tragedy, this could have been different, but factually for the years he was here, (5 titles, 2 FA cups, 1 European cup, in 25 years) he wasnt as successful, compared to Fergie.
So this leaves the question will we be successful with Ineos?
Well we haven't had this system what we have now above the manager in any era, never mind the modern era. It was always a general manager and manager, then Fergie in control of everything, then incompetence. So by law of averages, we should be more successful than the pre Fergie era at least. I think Ratcliffe is determined and will make mistakes, 'teething problems', especially in the first season.
Lets judge them after a season or two, as judging them now after a couple of months is a waste of time. Its like signing a new striker who has never played in the Premier and after half a dozen games hes scored 1 goal and everyones calling him shit.
 
Initially Ratcliffe seemed to have identified the core problem at United which was that we didn't have the best in class. So he went ahead and did a lot of firing and a lot of hiring.

Since then this what happened:
  • Cutting costs by firing hundreds of employees in an unusual step by the club. Canceling Fergie's role at the club, and small things like removing matchday meals and what not.
  • Canceled things like WFH. A step usually done by massive assholes like Musk. Hybrid and WFH in general have been proven successful, and unless you're working with the team, lots of roles wouldn't really require day to day presence at the club.
  • Kept ETH and gave him another year
  • We kept signing players with a dutch connection, even though it's been problematic during the ETH era.
  • Club has started horribly once again, and no plan in sight to sack the manager
Now some might cheer for those decisions, and time will tell if things will improve or not. But for me Ratcliffe seems like a worse version of the Glazers. He's shown lack of class towards club legends and employees. We know his views outside football anyway so no surprise here. I just hope that Omar Berrada will start having more of a presence and impact soon.

So no, I don't trust the new regime whatsoever.
 
1. The return to office mandate is ridiculously outdated in 2024, and is usually synonymous with out of touch c-suite folk and billionaire bosses who don't like the flexibility and QoL improvements it gives their workforce. Recent studies have shown its counter-intuitive from a productivity and employee retention perspective to force workers to go into the office when their job could feasibly be done at home.

2. They aren't mutually exclusive. Everything was up in the air in the summer when it looked like they were going to bin him, only to change their minds after the FA cup triumph. After making that call they now seem too stubborn to admit they were wrong and are instead dithering on the inevitably outcome of him being sacked. I think everyone accepts that he's probably not going to turn things around, so all they're doing now is delaying the inevitable. Even Ed feckin Woodward would have sacked Ten Hag by now.

3. Again it comes down to optics. He was reportedly being paid £2million a year. For a club of United's stature that's chump change, they could afford to keep the great man in the role and without bordering too much on the morbid - he's in his 80s, its not as if he's going to be doing this for decades. We can seemingly afford to pay 'cycling guru' and Ratcliffe's mate Dave Brailsford what I'm guessing is a pretty penny for whatever role he has at the club, we can afford to give our greatest ever manager an ambassadorial role for the remainder of his life. There are other pressing concerns if we really want to split hairs on making the club 'better run'.

4. They were willing to wait out his entire gardening leave period because Ratcliffe was adamant he was the guy. Granted its too early to judge his output, but from early signs I'm not exactly seeing the workings of a genius. I'll happily swallow humble pie if he ends up being a revelation for us in the years to come.

5. Its well documented Ashworth is big fan of Southgate's and maintains pretty close ties to him. For a while it seemed he was the favourite to takeover and probably would still be if Southgate himself didn't rule out a return to management in the near future. Also I can proudly say I never touch the Daily Mail :)

Apologies for replying all in one, my browser plays up whilst quoting.

1. How do you know the job offered 0 flexibility? The reports said staff are back in, no mention to say they were asked to come in full time and no flexibility. Also, what is stopping the businesses / clubs hiring staff from other countries to fulfil the roles that staff can work from home, would be cheaper.

2. Again, you are basing this on reports from journalists that he will be sacked? The same journalist has said he was getting sacked during this international break. They were always going to review his position, they also interviewed other managers. Once they decided to back him, they must have had conversations and they decided not to panic yet, we dont know what goes on behind the scenes.

3. Why does he need to get paid? Also, Brailsford is on the board, he isnt there just as a mate.. clearly you have done your homework on the operations at United now? You can say its "just £2m" but if the club had that attitude.. then you would have a failing business plan. I am sure he4 would still have his status and a role to play, just not being paid by the club, neither is he short of money that he needs the £2m a year. So all the club legends, should we pay them? people really need to move on from SAF, he retired in 2013, yet all we see is SAF comparisons, under SAF we were xyz... its like being in a married to someone that continuously talks about their ex..

4. They clearly weren't just going to wait were they? The fact that they entered into negotiations, as well as Ashworth taking them to court showed that they wanted to get him in sooner than 1 year.

5. Being close to someone means they are hell bent in hiring them for the club? I see... I mean if you follow what Ashworth has done, you will realise why we went for him. He transformed England and was the key driver to getting St James Park built.. he joined Brighton and they signed good players, a strategy that still exists, joined Newcastle and they qualified for CL with good buys. It might have seemed to you that Southgate was taking over but if you can show me any credible journalists saying this? Ornstein pretty much said he was never in for the job, so I guess if it wasn't Daily Mail, must have been talk sport.
 
This feels to me like you've formed your opinion from newspaper headlines.

ETH - given that they didn't employ ETH in the first place, if they hadn't looked at the managerial market they'd have been criticised after how the season had gone, the fact they did look at the market was also criticised. They elected to stick rather than twist which was sensible given any managerial hunt needed their football structure to be in place which it wasn't at the time. It is now so if a change happens we will be better positioned for it.
Signings - two months ago everyone was saying they were the best things since sliced bread. Admittedly I wasn't one of them, but there is certainly logic in most of the signings and the age profile is clearly better than in the past.
Public money - the public money isn't for the stadium it's for the regeneration around the area which would be done concurrently with the stadium. Those are public areas, which would create jobs and prosperity in the areas immediately around the stadium benefitting those local and as a result it is right that the council, government and relevant bodies are involved with funding those parts. I don't recall any outcry when City received public money when redeveloping the Etihad Campus area for these reasons.
Redundancies - it was pretty brutal, and good people did lose their jobs. I know people that did. But there was also an acceptance from some I know that left that Manchester United as a company had been allowed to become very bloated. The Glazers hands off approach meant that there had been nearly 20 years of zero accountability in certain areas of the wider business. It was necessary to streamline things to an extent.
SAF - You can't grumble about the club getting rid of normal employees in one breathe and then in the next breathe moan about the club and Sir Alex amicably agreeing to end a contract that has cost the club over £2m a year for over a decade. Just stopping paying Sir Alex for doing nothing is the equivalent to nearly 60 staff on the average UK salary.

Sounds like you’re in denial . . .
 
I wonder how many Ineos supporters on here wished they'd got Jassim instead?

Forget the politics of being owned by a state and all that, Im talking about whether things would have been different by now under Qatar ownership: ie: would they have sacked ETH by now?

(Im not saying it would be, Im just wondering)
 
I wonder how many Ineos supporters on here wished they'd got Jassim instead?

Forget the politics of being owned by a state and all that, Im talking about whether things would have been different by now under Qatar ownership: ie: would they have sacked ETH by now?

(Im not saying it would be, Im just wondering)

Dunno about sack eth by now but removing the debt would have given us more financial flexibility
 
I wonder how many Ineos supporters on here wished they'd got Jassim instead?

Forget the politics of being owned by a state and all that, Im talking about whether things would have been different by now under Qatar ownership: ie: would they have sacked ETH by now?

(Im not saying it would be, Im just wondering)


Right now me and I'm still convinced Jassim doesn't exist but that's still preferable to INEOS so far
 
Love all these people whingeing about optics when the great man himself couldn't give a feck about the media and hired and fired people all the time, provided united won.

I can see what ineos are trying to do. I don't don't know if it'll work but they are the kind of decisions you make when you are trying to improve accountability and focus resources. It's going to be bumpy and none of this is being helped by the loss of our confidence in the manager, which is what all this really boils down to.
 
This feels to me like you've formed your opinion from newspaper headlines.

ETH - given that they didn't employ ETH in the first place, if they hadn't looked at the managerial market they'd have been criticised after how the season had gone, the fact they did look at the market was also criticised. They elected to stick rather than twist which was sensible given any managerial hunt needed their football structure to be in place which it wasn't at the time. It is now so if a change happens we will be better positioned for it.
Signings - two months ago everyone was saying they were the best things since sliced bread. Admittedly I wasn't one of them, but there is certainly logic in most of the signings and the age profile is clearly better than in the past.
Public money - the public money isn't for the stadium it's for the regeneration around the area which would be done concurrently with the stadium. Those are public areas, which would create jobs and prosperity in the areas immediately around the stadium benefitting those local and as a result it is right that the council, government and relevant bodies are involved with funding those parts. I don't recall any outcry when City received public money when redeveloping the Etihad Campus area for these reasons.
Redundancies - it was pretty brutal, and good people did lose their jobs. I know people that did. But there was also an acceptance from some I know that left that Manchester United as a company had been allowed to become very bloated. The Glazers hands off approach meant that there had been nearly 20 years of zero accountability in certain areas of the wider business. It was necessary to streamline things to an extent.
SAF - You can't grumble about the club getting rid of normal employees in one breathe and then in the next breathe moan about the club and Sir Alex amicably agreeing to end a contract that has cost the club over £2m a year for over a decade. Just stopping paying Sir Alex for doing nothing is the equivalent to nearly 60 staff on the average UK salary.
Great post. Nice to see a bit of common sense.
 
I wanted them over some state backed owner, and even if they're shite I'd prefer that reality.

However, I do have my doubts. Like I've said numerous times, they'll get things wrong but it's their ability to recognise and correct this that will decide how well they do. Nobody gets everything right in football.

One thing that does stick in my mind a bit is when SJR said that they bought Nice to learn how to run a football club. That venture is relatively short still, and they've certainly not "cracked it", so I can only imagine how they're feeling about things at United right now. It is probably eating them alive. It looks like they're making decisions that they have experience in, mainly around general business operations and finance, but the actual football decisions are leaving a lot to be desired right now.
 
First we need to define what success even means, because this is a multi-stranded, complex issue. At it base, most rudimentary form it probably includes the following (in no particular order):

(1) To establish a robust and financially self-sustainable framework and operations, that allows continual investment in playing staff and infrastructure without placing the club in compliance, financial or legal jeopardy. It would mean the erosion of unconstructive debt (Glazer acquisition costs) and sensible, sustainable management and planning of constructive costs (such as asset backed infrastructure development on a new stadium). All of this then has to be filtered through a lens of accessibility and consideration of the fans by keepinf things like ticket prices affordable. If economic sustainability and even profitability comes at the cost of disenfranchisement of lower and lower-middle income fans, then the “success” is tempered.

(2) Positive brand aossications are another ongoing process. Much of the financial “success” of the club, and its ability to compete in the transfer market, even during lean times, is due to the many iconic elements of the club brand. Many built over the long history of the club, but new ones being forged every season. A new generation of fans are being grown as we speak, and it’s important that the club reframe the narrative surrounding its current standing and prestige, to remain appealing to the next generation. Currently, young people see an image of profligacy, ineptitude and competitive irrelevance. There is a lot of work to be done for United to reclaim its foothold at the pinnacle of global club prestige.

(3) Competitiveness on the field is undoubtedly the measure by which the cast majority of fans will benchmark the Ineos era, but as we can already see, that competitiveness has to come from within a strict framework. Resources are finite and limited, prestige is tarnished, infrastructure is lacking. Competitiveness also has to be an ongoing base level. The club should always be in the CL places, it should start every season with a realistic shot at winning all four of the major trophies available. But is competitiveness enough? Or is success measured in trophies?

As we have seen recently, trophies can be won, even during wholly unsuccessful periods. So what is the basis for determining success? And across what timeframe is one to judge it? Realistically, the sporting ambitions of the club for this season I.e. what is defined as successful, will differ from next season. And next season will differ from the season after etc etc. Why? Because the trajectory has to always be positive, and consequently the environment is constantly dynamic. 4th place and a cup win would represent a successful season for us this year, but the club - by its own admission - targets winning the title in the 27-28 season, and comparatively, a 2nd place and a cup win that year would be a failure.

So, for me, the idea of sporting success is to zoom out and look at this at a high level. What is the ultimate benchmark by which any owner should be judged at United? It’s certainly not over the course of a single season. What if we win the treble one season, but the following three seasons finished in mid-table? For me, success would be defined as getting the club to a position where (a) They are routinely challenging for all competitions they enter, (b) Champions league qualification is a near enough certainty. Fighting for 4th place is akin to flirting with relegation., (c) we start every season with an objectively realistic expectation of winning the biggest prizes., (d) The club becomes synonymous once again with the idea of being feared and revered in equal measure on the pitch, and (e) over a rolling three year period we continue a historically positive trajectory in perpetuity.

(4) Our operations become more sophisticated. This one can be measured in the success of points (1) and (3) because you can’t achieve either, through the lens I have written about, without doing this. Yet, I still think it merits its own point. What do I mean by sophisticated? I mean the obvious and core assimilation of cutting edge practices and technologies to create competitive advantages; not least in player acquisition. Player acquisition and wage costs have been snowballing out of control for some time. This last summer we saw some really intelligent and financial sensible recruitment, but ultimately I would want us to be become industry leaders in talent identification and acquisition. Using data to identify undervalued or high potential players, and to take advantage of their undervaluation or early development stage, to sign high quality talent for reasonable prices. This would also play into using data to maintain an optimally balanced squad in terms of coverage, value, age profiles, and natural turnover.

Sophistication is a broad concept but there are so many areas where I would want to see us climb the rankings in our usage of bleeding edge thinking and technologies, not least in medical facets, such as injury prevention, and performance levels. The list here is almost endless, but it’s a vital piece of the puzzle for me.

(5) Infrastructure development. It’s no secret that we need a new or redeveloped stadium, and that it needs to be part of a wider rejuvenation of the area that doesn’t disenfranchise local residents. It’s an area we need to be an industry leader on and will have a concomitant impact upon almost every other component I have mentioned so far. It’s at the core of our ability to service our fans, attract players, build the prestige and reputation of the club, generate new income streams etc etc. It’s also a benchmark of success measured over a significantly longer time frame. Minimum five years, and ultimately decades.

(6) Being true to the core principles of the club. Much is made about United DNA, which is an amorphous and slightly annoying phrase. But it is true that there are core principles that should never be compromised and if they were, would significantly temper any “success”. The primary among these is our dedication to youth. To provide a real pathway to the first team for academy talents. The legend of this club is built upon doing that, and not just doing it, but doing it and being the most successful club in the country.

This club has always been a trailblazer for English football. The first English club to go into Europe, the first British club to win the European cup. The first, and some would say only (fairly), to win the treble. The only English club to win all the major European prizes, CL, EL, CWC. The English club with most league triumphs. It goes on and on. And to do it all with largely homegrown teams from the academy, with a spattering of outside youth and experience. That’s the REAL DNA of United. It isn’t in a particular playing style, it’s in exciting and entertaining fans, being on “the perch” of domestic and European football, and doing it with a bunch of homegrown lads in the team. Again, this is something measured over a long period of time.

So, will Ineos be successful? Well, I can see from their appointments, restructuring, moves made, actions taken to date, objectives espoused etc., that they seem to get the bigger picture. That they are doing the work of putting the club back on the right path to being “successful”. Do I think there will be missteps? Of course! Am I more positive about our longer term prospects than at any time in the last decade? Absolutely. Do I recognise the need to be patient? Without a doubt. All the lens’ above are the prism through which I will judge them, not through the short focus, singular prism of Erik Ten Hag. It’s where the club will be in 3 years, 5 years, 10 years that interests me; because we’ve allowed the very bones of this club to rot over the last 20 years, that to expect anything resembling success in the short term, is to miss the point of the problem entirely. I also recognise that my definition of success will evolve over time as the framework evolves and the principle of positive trajectory is applied.

I’ve always believed that if you do all the right things, in the right way, over a sustained period of time, and commit 100% to a process, then ultimately success is a matter of when, not if. I think Ineos are addressing the right problems, and have appointed the right people to do just that. Once we overcome the short term hurdles, I see a rosy future ahead.
 
Ineos have been unsuccessful in everything they have done so why should we expect any thing different?

The glazers had a plan to take United back to the top! Sir Jim has come along and set us back years!
 
No strong opinions yet but I'm happy with how they've run things so far, on the whole. Will be a little while before we can judge whether the things they've put in place that sounded good actually bear fruit though.