Are Bruno and Rashford a problem?

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Fernandes' quality is never in doubt but his mentality is. Always thought he has lacked the required composure of a leader. He's usually the first player whose head goes in a match. When you need someone to calm everyone down when we fall a goal behind and keep everyone grounded, he's the first one to start panic-spaffing the ball everywhere.

Also never thought he was so good that his positional ill discipline is worth it in the trade off

His quality is absolutely in doubt. His shooting has gone to absolute shite, his passing is nothing special. He can't hold the ball up or dribble.

His composure and leadership are absolutely shocking though. Yesterday he literally fecked up our attacking momentum twice with stupid play acting/trying to get a free kick. An embarrassing captain on the pitch. Luckily for the club they mainly care about his PR work, the football is secondary to Hollywood FC.
 
If we really want to become a top side again Rashford, Bruno and Maguire should not be starting games for us. I am not saying they are bad players or useless but for various reasons each of them hinders our progress and ten Hag ignores this.
 
I presume Rashford's wages are the sole reason he is near the first team. He has been dreadful for almost 18 months now.
 
Rashford is turning into Martial (still without a club by the way).

I'd say all of our attacking front line isn't upto scratch. Some of them have potential but that means we still have to wait a few years for the finished article.
 
Rashford shouldn't be anywhere near the first team as he's currently performing like someone from league 2 and has been for over a year.

With Bruno it's different, he puts up good numbers and most of all he seems to actually care about the teams performance but the man loses possession so often and I know it's because he's trying these killer passes but it's not good enough if we want to win big trophies.
Louis Van Gaal divides opinion like no other but he wouldn't have the likes of Bruno anywhere near the team due to his constant turnover of the ball.
When there were murmurings at the end of the season that Bruno wasn't happy etc I was thrilled at the prospect of getting a good transfer fee and moving on in a different direction but no, he gets a contract renewal on bigger wages so essentially he's unsellable like Rashford and Casemiro and Sancho, we never learn it seems giving out contacts. I thought Ineos would be different.
 
They were not the reason we lost today.
You are correct! Where were Martinez and Dalot on the last goal??? Looked like an U8 team who crowds around the ball where ever it goes. Also on the multiple offsides. Is that perhaps coaching?? The lack of service is horrifying, there were at least 4x the play was there and instead of feeding the ball forward, it went sideways or backwards. Someone has to inform ETH that you win games by scoring more goals than the opposition. In order to score goals you have to move forward at some point. Then there is the illustrious Bruno, who has a penchant for 5 bad passes for every 1 good one and people say how great he is. In fact I just read a story about how he could be the best player in the EPL. Obviously a scrib who has never played or coached the game at any level. Compare Bruno to every captain we have had over the last 30 yrs. Ask yourself who you would rather have Cantona, Keane, Rooney, Vidic or Bruno on your team? I think that pretty much says it all.
 
For all his faults somehow I can still see a fully inform Rashford being part of title winning team , but day we anointed Fernandes as Our Talisman the go to guy we surrendered any notion of being top team capable of competing for biggest prizes and fully accepted our place as yoyo Champions league Club because that's where players of Fernandes ilk are best suited .

Since then we have only made situation worse by doubling down on our stupidity by giving not one but two contract extentions while also giving Captaincy to Fernandes .

It's too much of a guess to build on Rashford's form, but I think I agree. The thing with Bruno, for me, is that he is not just the best player on the team, but that he is treated as such to too much of a degree. It's not horrible to have a talisman, but it's different if he's THE talisman, and that's what he is. It's been better since he became more of a playmaker, but that's what seemed to always hold Atletico back with Griezmann pre-Barcelona. Yes he was great often, but it's a problem if one player's form is basically the whole team's form. And that's the case with Bruno for me, too.

ETH does kind of like these kind of no bullexcrement (or ALL bullexcrement) leaders, like how he had Tadic before at Ajax. Another player who had the skills for a great 10... but also a liability as your main playmaker. And it wasn't a surprise that they were usually best with him as a false 9 or a winger, or at 10 but with someone like Ziyech on the wings adding a playmaker/midfielder in another way (plus players with more control and -consistent- playmaker attributes like Frenkie and Lasse Schone behind him, or even Gravenberch and Berghuis (and Lisandro, Blind, Mazraoui further back taking on a lot of the playmaking duties, as well).

In that sense it's good that Mainoo is breaking through, that Casemiro can pass better than expected, and that Eriksen and Mount are options - and that Bruno is played more Tadic-like when possible, on the wing or as a false 9. But the problem - or risk - is that Mainoo is inexperienced, so his consistency is likely not perfect, and he's still building up the capability to play 90 minutes, and do that multiple games in a row, let alone multiple times a week. Casemiro showed last season his consistency is an issue, too, while the one before in which he was more consistent, the red cards also showed that the complete reliability there was, well, re: liability. Eriksen can't keep up well enough, Mount is a liability further back.

Bruno could still stay, and maybe once the team gets into more of a rhythm, especially with the new players (and returning?), as it's already more structured in play than it was last season. But it also says more than enough that the Brighton game maybe deserved more, perhaps a win even, but that it also was not that unexpected. Losing 2-1, allegedly against the run of play, is better than losing 4-0 with the run of play, but both give you 0 points and you need to do more than just improve the goal difference - slightly.

It could help (could) if Amad develops into more of a playmaking winger, or if Mount (or Bruno himself) would take that role. Because I honestly think that's the only way to build on Bruno (as a 10) without relying on one player too much. He is no Messi, and even at Barcelona the decline was still there once Xavi, Iniesta, and such moved on and even more reliance was placed unto Messi. Part of the reason the start of Bruno was so good, is because he was new, a new weapon, he could give great through passes, he could appear in the box and score in various ways. But he was A weapon, and treated as such. So besides defenders not being prepared as much yet, he could appear as more of a surprise and focus on his skills, which also makes the surprise and luck factor he's going for more of a benefit rather than a crossed-fingers or prayer situation. He could still be the main weapon, but if he's the only tool and the rest just tries to be a nice toolbox for him, carving out a Bruno shape into that foampillow... you're f'ed if you forgot your batteries, or if this tool cannot get small/big enough to turn this particular gear at work today.

Maybe the entry of Mainoo will do a lot, maybe Casemiro will be more consistent this year, maybe Ugarte will get in and settle well and swiftly. Maybe. I don't think Bruno can be a reliable main weapon if he's the only weapon. Hopefully Mount, Zirkzee, ~Ugarte~, Amad, Mainoo, Mazraoui, etc adapt and grow further, but otherwise Bruno will just be a bit more reliable Pogba, where it's just waiting for the perfect balance to appear, hopefully someday.

And that's why someone like Rashford (or now Garnacho) works a bit better as a main weapon (now). As the whole team doesn't necessarily fall apart if one of them does. You may not score the goals you want and they can be marked out of the match, turning you into more of a toothless beast, but since they would not suddenly become the main playmaker, you don't tame the entire beast by taking out the teeth. A reliance on Rashford gets you hoping for a 1-0, 2-1 win, a reliance on Bruno gets you hoping for a 3-2, 4-3 win. Overly simplified, clearly, but that makes Bruno more risky to me. Doesn't mean he has to go, but that it's a bigger puzzle to figure that out. If you replace Rashford you get to hope the next player is more efficient in assists or goals, maybe a bit of hold-up and in blocking their right back or some midfielder. Want to replace Bruno? Well, you better figure out a new gameplan.

Before I thought the solution would definitely be to let him/them go, but I think that's only the case if the setup will never grow beyond "give it to Bruno and pray for the best". But if we get to the point where him having a bad game just means more edge of the seat moments (and frustration) in creating and scoring chances, then he could stay an amazing asset for quite a while still. There's a reason Tadic felt overrated, but Ajax reached the semifinals, and kept winning in the CL group and its domestic games, with Tadic being the MVP in goals+assists in the Eredivisie for like 4 seasons in a row(?), while not being a consistently reliable playmaker. But if not enough out of Amad, Mount, Mainoo, Casemiro/Ugarte, Mazraoui, Lisandro, Shaw, and possibly even Zirkzee, take on more of the playmaking duties (and grow the necessary skills), Bruno being the leader of this team is closer to a weekly coin toss.

But, again, I do think this season so far (and perhaps the end of the last) shows that the chance is bigger than I thought it could be last season (and beyond). So now I'm curious to see whether I'll be disproven or not, as it obviously comes with many dependencies and the future being unknown (at least to me, right now).
 
Fernandes' quality is never in doubt but his mentality is. Always thought he has lacked the required composure of a leader. He's usually the first player whose head goes in a match. When you need someone to calm everyone down when we fall a goal behind and keep everyone grounded, he's the first one to start panic-spaffing the ball everywhere.

Also never thought he was so good that his positional ill discipline is worth it in the trade off
Which quality? Creating chances you might say?

Last season, Even Elanga had more assists than Bruno Fernandes. You don't believe.. Confirm it.
He was tied with Pereira

2023 Eriksen had more assists than him.
2024 Scot had more goals than him. Bruno scored only 6 non penalty goals. Scott has 7. Bruno had 4 more penalties.

As you can see, he's not that a performer. Just the United media amplifying him. He's just a 'good a season' average player like Eriksen and Scot in output results.

This is what people do not usually want to accept. Bruno is a Europa League quality player. And he will end his career as such.

A big below tier, to the likes of Bernardo Silva, his country man, age mate, of same physical physique. While Bernardo scores against Madrid in Semi Finals of champions league, Bruno has never played in such a game in his life.

It's usually incredible how Bruno is viewed as a football royalty while he has achieved absolutely nothing in his career :lol:
 
Which quality? Creating chances you might say?

Last season, Even Elanga had more assists than Bruno Fernandes. You don't believe.. Confirm it.
He was tied with Pereira

2023 Eriksen had more assists than him.
2024 Scot had more goals than him. Bruno scored only 6 non penalty goals. Scott has 7. Bruno had 4 more penalties.

As you can see, he's not that a performer. Just the United media amplifying him. He's just a 'good a season' average player like Eriksen and Scot in output results.

This is what people do not usually want to accept. Bruno is a Europa League quality player. And he will end his career as such.

A big below tier, to the likes of Bernardo Silva, his country man, age mate, of same physical physique. While Bernardo scores against Madrid in Semi Finals of champions league, Bruno has never played in such a game in his life.

It's usually incredible how Bruno is viewed as a football royalty while he has achieved absolutely nothing in his career :lol:
You do know for a player to get more assists the other players have to score right.
 
Which quality? Creating chances you might say?

Last season, Even Elanga had more assists than Bruno Fernandes. You don't believe.. Confirm it.
He was tied with Pereira

2023 Eriksen had more assists than him.
2024 Scot had more goals than him. Bruno scored only 6 non penalty goals. Scott has 7. Bruno had 4 more penalties.

As you can see, he's not that a performer. Just the United media amplifying him. He's just a 'good a season' average player like Eriksen and Scot in output results.

This is what people do not usually want to accept. Bruno is a Europa League quality player. And he will end his career as such.

A big below tier, to the likes of Bernardo Silva, his country man, age mate, of same physical physique. While Bernardo scores against Madrid in Semi Finals of champions league, Bruno has never played in such a game in his life.

It's usually incredible how Bruno is viewed as a football royalty while he has achieved absolutely nothing in his career :lol:
This is such a dreadful post and incorrect in so many ways. 23/24, Bruno did score more than mctominay. You don't get to simply disregard penalties because it suits you to do so. Bruno has won several trophies in his career. So saying he's achieved absolutely nothing is also nonsense. 22/23 Bruno had 9 PL assists, as did Eriksen. The difference is Bruno scored 8 as opposed to eriksen who scored 1.
 
You do know for a player to get more assists the other players have to score right.
:lol:
Coping mechanism for United fans.

Palmer for a dysfunctional Chelsea had better goals numbers and assists than Bruno.

Pereira for Fulham had even assists.
Elanga had more assists than Bruno.

Good players and Genuine quality talents will also shine above the rest.

As you can see, nothing miraculous is being done by Bruno. Just a very average set of results.
 
Bruno? The guy who set up what would have been the winner yesterday but for Zirkzee's knee on the line.

Subbing him off was the moment the game was lost.

In a team so short of attacking quality, United's biggest issue with Bruno is that there's only one of him.

It's the eternal United question with Bruno though. Does he create all these chances to the detriment of our team being able to control games. Would the team be better with 3 midfielders who are capable of keeping possession better or instead funneling everything through Bruno. I get both sides with him. He doesn't seem to have an off switch despite being an older player. When we are penned in and he gets the ball and can release Rashford/Garnacho he's amazing. When we need to take control of a game or pen a team in he's too risky with the ball. He is constantly trying to create something which is both good and bad.

I still believe if you want to play with a No 10 who has complete freedom he is perfect, however I don't think the trade off for having a No 10 is good enough to justify that position.

Alternatively if you want a functioning midfield that can control possession he is too much of a risky player to play there.

It goes back to in my eyes Ragnick's assessment of the squad and the problems we as a club face. You have the two biggest stars in Bruno and Rashford who are perfect for a counter attacking/transition team. But to be a top team you need to be able to dominate possession and have a good counter press. How can you change the team to do that when the two biggest players in the squad are not really suited to it.
 
This is such a dreadful post and incorrect in so many ways. 23/24, Bruno did score more than mctominay. You don't get to simply disregard penalties because it suits you to do so. Bruno has won several trophies in his career. So saying he's achieved absolutely nothing is also nonsense. 22/23 Bruno had 9 PL assists, as did Eriksen. The difference is Bruno scored 8 as opposed to eriksen who scored 1.
Suit me in what?
Give those penalties to another player other than Bruno or Scott. Scott would had have more goals. Very simple argument.

What has Bruno won, in club football? Mr? What? FA Cup and Carabao Cup? Bruno has never being involved in a title race in his life, has never played in a Champions League QF game in his life
:lol:

I will not go in this rabbit hole again, because I had written so much about Bruno since 2022.

Again, as I told another poster here before the start of the season..
Time is the best decider of affairs, give it time you will see with your eyes how poor Bruno is.
 
Suit me in what?
Give those penalties to another player other than Bruno or Scott. Scott would had have more goals. Very simple argument.

What has Bruno won, in club football? Mr? What? FA Cup and Carabao Cup? Bruno has never being involved in a title race in his life, has never played in a Champions League QF game in his life
:lol:

I will not go in this rabbit hole again, because I had written so much about Bruno since 2022.

Again, as I told another poster here before the start of the season..
Time is the best decider of affairs, give it time you will see with your eyes how poor Bruno is.
Yes, all of your arguments are very, very simple. No arguments there. Again, you can't remove penalties from Bruno's tally because, as far as I'm aware, penalties still count as goals. The record will show that Bruno scored more than Scott that season because...he did. The record will also show that he had considerably more assists. Your hilariously simple argument seems to be 'Player X who is not a great player had the same number of assists as Bruno, which must mean Bruno is on that level', which totally ignores the fact that in many other metrics Bruno absolutely torches the other player. It's a matter of fact that Bruno is unusual in that he provides a significant number of goals and assists consistently, season after season. He's also one of the biggest chance creators in Europe.

Another of your very simple arguments - that he's not won anything of consequence (modified from he's achieved nothing when I pointed out that he has) - only goes to show that he probably should have left the club for success but he chose to stick around (thankfully). Again, all this 'fact' shows is that we've been terrible for years and Bruno loves the club.
 
Yes, all of your arguments are very, very simple. No arguments there. Again, you can't remove penalties from Bruno's tally because, as far as I'm aware, penalties still count as goals. The record will show that Bruno scored more than Scott that season because...he did. The record will also show that he had considerably more assists. Your hilariously simple argument seems to be 'Player X who is not a great player had the same number of assists as Bruno, which must mean Bruno is on that level', which totally ignores the fact that in many other metrics Bruno absolutely torches the other player. It's a matter of fact that Bruno is unusual in that he provides a significant number of goals and assists consistently, season after season. He's also one of the biggest chance creators in Europe.

Another of your very simple arguments - that he's not won anything of consequence (modified from he's achieved nothing when I pointed out that he has) - only goes to show that he probably should have left the club for success but he chose to stick around (thankfully). Again, all this 'fact' shows is that we've been terrible for years and Bruno loves the club.
You really think Bruno chose to stick around and win less because he loves the club? These are professional footballers for fecks sake. Love doesn't come into it . We pay him the most money and treat him like footballing royalty, why would he ever want to leave? I could just as easily say he's staying because he has a losers mentality and wants to stay at a club not challenging for the top honors because he would be exposed in a better team where you are expected to perform every week. Here he knows a couple good games a month should keep the majority of United fans off his back.
 
It's too much of a guess to build on Rashford's form, but I think I agree. The thing with Bruno, for me, is that he is not just the best player on the team, but that he is treated as such to too much of a degree. It's not horrible to have a talisman, but it's different if he's THE talisman, and that's what he is. It's been better since he became more of a playmaker, but that's what seemed to always hold Atletico back with Griezmann pre-Barcelona. Yes he was great often, but it's a problem if one player's form is basically the whole team's form. And that's the case with Bruno for me, too.

ETH does kind of like these kind of no bullexcrement (or ALL bullexcrement) leaders, like how he had Tadic before at Ajax. Another player who had the skills for a great 10... but also a liability as your main playmaker. And it wasn't a surprise that they were usually best with him as a false 9 or a winger, or at 10 but with someone like Ziyech on the wings adding a playmaker/midfielder in another way (plus players with more control and -consistent- playmaker attributes like Frenkie and Lasse Schone behind him, or even Gravenberch and Berghuis (and Lisandro, Blind, Mazraoui further back taking on a lot of the playmaking duties, as well).

In that sense it's good that Mainoo is breaking through, that Casemiro can pass better than expected, and that Eriksen and Mount are options - and that Bruno is played more Tadic-like when possible, on the wing or as a false 9. But the problem - or risk - is that Mainoo is inexperienced, so his consistency is likely not perfect, and he's still building up the capability to play 90 minutes, and do that multiple games in a row, let alone multiple times a week. Casemiro showed last season his consistency is an issue, too, while the one before in which he was more consistent, the red cards also showed that the complete reliability there was, well, re: liability. Eriksen can't keep up well enough, Mount is a liability further back.

Bruno could still stay, and maybe once the team gets into more of a rhythm, especially with the new players (and returning?), as it's already more structured in play than it was last season. But it also says more than enough that the Brighton game maybe deserved more, perhaps a win even, but that it also was not that unexpected. Losing 2-1, allegedly against the run of play, is better than losing 4-0 with the run of play, but both give you 0 points and you need to do more than just improve the goal difference - slightly.

It could help (could) if Amad develops into more of a playmaking winger, or if Mount (or Bruno himself) would take that role. Because I honestly think that's the only way to build on Bruno (as a 10) without relying on one player too much. He is no Messi, and even at Barcelona the decline was still there once Xavi, Iniesta, and such moved on and even more reliance was placed unto Messi. Part of the reason the start of Bruno was so good, is because he was new, a new weapon, he could give great through passes, he could appear in the box and score in various ways. But he was A weapon, and treated as such. So besides defenders not being prepared as much yet, he could appear as more of a surprise and focus on his skills, which also makes the surprise and luck factor he's going for more of a benefit rather than a crossed-fingers or prayer situation. He could still be the main weapon, but if he's the only tool and the rest just tries to be a nice toolbox for him, carving out a Bruno shape into that foampillow... you're f'ed if you forgot your batteries, or if this tool cannot get small/big enough to turn this particular gear at work today.

Maybe the entry of Mainoo will do a lot, maybe Casemiro will be more consistent this year, maybe Ugarte will get in and settle well and swiftly. Maybe. I don't think Bruno can be a reliable main weapon if he's the only weapon. Hopefully Mount, Zirkzee, ~Ugarte~, Amad, Mainoo, Mazraoui, etc adapt and grow further, but otherwise Bruno will just be a bit more reliable Pogba, where it's just waiting for the perfect balance to appear, hopefully someday.

And that's why someone like Rashford (or now Garnacho) works a bit better as a main weapon (now). As the whole team doesn't necessarily fall apart if one of them does. You may not score the goals you want and they can be marked out of the match, turning you into more of a toothless beast, but since they would not suddenly become the main playmaker, you don't tame the entire beast by taking out the teeth. A reliance on Rashford gets you hoping for a 1-0, 2-1 win, a reliance on Bruno gets you hoping for a 3-2, 4-3 win. Overly simplified, clearly, but that makes Bruno more risky to me. Doesn't mean he has to go, but that it's a bigger puzzle to figure that out. If you replace Rashford you get to hope the next player is more efficient in assists or goals, maybe a bit of hold-up and in blocking their right back or some midfielder. Want to replace Bruno? Well, you better figure out a new gameplan.

Before I thought the solution would definitely be to let him/them go, but I think that's only the case if the setup will never grow beyond "give it to Bruno and pray for the best". But if we get to the point where him having a bad game just means more edge of the seat moments (and frustration) in creating and scoring chances, then he could stay an amazing asset for quite a while still. There's a reason Tadic felt overrated, but Ajax reached the semifinals, and kept winning in the CL group and its domestic games, with Tadic being the MVP in goals+assists in the Eredivisie for like 4 seasons in a row(?), while not being a consistently reliable playmaker. But if not enough out of Amad, Mount, Mainoo, Casemiro/Ugarte, Mazraoui, Lisandro, Shaw, and possibly even Zirkzee, take on more of the playmaking duties (and grow the necessary skills), Bruno being the leader of this team is closer to a weekly coin toss.

But, again, I do think this season so far (and perhaps the end of the last) shows that the chance is bigger than I thought it could be last season (and beyond). So now I'm curious to see whether I'll be disproven or not, as it obviously comes with many dependencies and the future being unknown (at least to me, right now).
No disrespect, but is Bruno really the best player on this team? Then give him the BP, which I disagree with and give the armband to someone who will lead. Bruno is part of the problem here. I am hoping they can build him up and get some money back. Time in and time out he makes horrible passes that stagnate great progress. This is not a guy you want on your team if you want to be at the top of the field. In fact I could put together a highlight reel on a game by game basis of his horrible passes and brain farts that would be 10x his productive ones.
Do not gauge what a championship team is by what is on the field at present. There are some pieces that can fit, but they are still at least 3 or 4 away from really competing. The fact that Manchester United do not have at least 3 high level strikers is embarrassing. I'm not saying the 3 best in the world, but at least 1 in the top 10 and maybe 2 in the top 30.
The thing is, you need to see progress here. That means challenging for a top 4 spot. Anything less is a failure. ETH needs to watch games from SAF tenure, see how things work, understand what a true offensive team looks like. This sit back transition thing does not work with this team. They need to use the great offense = good defense strategy that was emblematic of this team for decades. Ever notice how many backward passes there are? I would bet they lead the league going in the wrong direction. I get the reset, but that reset needs to be followed up with some forward flow. We have gone through a decade of pain that should not have happened. I put all this on the Glazers, who chose Woodward and he had no right to be involved in football operations anywhere. This team is just not at the level they should be, part on players, part on management. ETH is on a very short string right now. A couple of losses in a row and he can go and win his trophy's elsewhere.
 
You really think Bruno chose to stick around and win less because he loves the club? These are professional footballers for fecks sake. Love doesn't come into it . We pay him the most money and treat him like footballing royalty, why would he ever want to leave? I could just as easily say he's staying because he has a losers mentality and wants to stay at a club not challenging for the top honors because he would be exposed in a better team where you are expected to perform every week. Here he knows a couple good games a month should keep the majority of United fans off his back.
Well said! My thoughts exactly, this guy is not a winner, has 0 pedigree.
 
You really think Bruno chose to stick around and win less because he loves the club? These are professional footballers for fecks sake. Love doesn't come into it . We pay him the most money and treat him like footballing royalty, why would he ever want to leave? I could just as easily say he's staying because he has a losers mentality and wants to stay at a club not challenging for the top honors because he would be exposed in a better team where you are expected to perform every week. Here he knows a couple good games a month should keep the majority of United fans off his back.
So you're saying that there's no such thing as loyalty in football? Strong disagree - certain players have a real affinity to their clubs, though they are few and far between. Do you think Gerrard chose to win less because he loved the club? How about le tissier? I think feeling comfortable and at home will, for some, be more important than trophies. And the fact that the vast majority of the fanbase appreciates him is, I'm sure, part of why he stuck around. Also, in terms of pay you're deluded if (until this most recent contract) you think he couldn't have found someone willing to pay him more. You say we pay him the most money but that's been consistently untrue. If anything we've absolutely underpaid him in the context of what we've paid many others, so again you're talking nonsense.
 
Giving Bruno a new contract doesn't give me confidence in the new management tbh.
 
We can go on about individual players and their quality (or lack of) when it comes down to the big moments in big games but this is Brighton for God sake.

Let's be realistic, many of us went into the game yesterday expecting to lose and would have taken a point. This is unacceptable.

Brighton are a fair PL side, but on an individual basis they are miles and miles behind us. You don't need to look far to find a post of mine criticising Rashford, but that lad on the RW for Brighton yesterday, despite TNTs best efforts to talk him up, was dreadful.

Likewise, they don't have a single player anywhere near, not on the same planet, as Bruno.

They had a teenager at LB, a poor man's Maguire at CB with another player who has been in and out of their side, Danny Welbeck at CF. Nothing of any note really...how many of them play for their national teams? Cant be many. Joao Pedro would be the only player I'd take in our squad right now, and that's as a rotation option.

So why are we going into these games not expecting to win? Why are we consistently outplayed by far inferior players? It HAS to be the manager.

Say what you want about our players...but the vast, vast majority of our squad (nevermind XI) would walk into Brighton's team...and yet here we are, with only one win in 5 against them, and that was a dead rubber.
 
We can go on about individual players and their quality (or lack of) when it comes down to the big moments in big games but this is Brighton for God sake.

Let's be realistic, many of us went into the game yesterday expecting to lose and would have taken a point. This is unacceptable.

Brighton are a fair PL side, but on an individual basis they are miles and miles behind us. You don't need to look far to find a post of mine criticising Rashford, but that lad on the RW for Brighton yesterday, despite TNTs best efforts to talk him up, was dreadful.

Likewise, they don't have a single player anywhere near, not on the same planet, as Bruno.

They had a teenager at LB, a poor man's Maguire at CB with another player who has been in and out of their side, Danny Welbeck at CF. Nothing of any note really...how many of them play for their national teams? Cant be many. Joao Pedro would be the only player I'd take in our squad right now, and that's as a rotation option.

So why are we going into these games not expecting to win? Why are we consistently outplayed by far inferior players? It HAS to be the manager.
The manager put the team in position to close out the game by half time

Also to take the lead in the second half.

Not really a player issue yesterday either we made 2 defensive mistakes and got punished. Its not lost though that the players who made those mistakes are ones we largely want to replace (Maguire, Casemiro, McTominay) whilst personally for me Dalot should be a bench option

Saying that their attacking players and also depth are clearly better than ours and thats why we were worried as well as past results.
 
You really think Bruno chose to stick around and win less because he loves the club? These are professional footballers for fecks sake. Love doesn't come into it . We pay him the most money and treat him like footballing royalty, why would he ever want to leave? I could just as easily say he's staying because he has a losers mentality and wants to stay at a club not challenging for the top honors because he would be exposed in a better team where you are expected to perform every week. Here he knows a couple good games a month should keep the majority of United fans off his back.
Yep. He and his agent pressured the club for months to get a bigger contract, doesn't sound like love to me.

Also, the only teams that could've bought him and afforded his wages were in Saudi. His market is very limited, it's a shame people at United didn't look at the bigger picture and called his bluff.
 
So you're saying that there's no such thing as loyalty in football? Strong disagree - certain players have a real affinity to their clubs, though they are few and far between. Do you think Gerrard chose to win less because he loved the club? How about le tissier? I think feeling comfortable and at home will, for some, be more important than trophies. And the fact that the vast majority of the fanbase appreciates him is, I'm sure, part of why he stuck around. Also, in terms of pay you're deluded if (until this most recent contract) you think he couldn't have found someone willing to pay him more. You say we pay him the most money but that's been consistently untrue. If anything we've absolutely underpaid him in the context of what we've paid many others, so again you're talking nonsense.
You can get some rare exceptions like a Totti but even then part of it is to do with comfort like you said not love. Gerrard wanted to leave to go to Chelsea before he was basically threatened to stay.

. When it comes to Brunos wages here are the facts:

When we first bought him he was paid what he was worth if not more unless you think he loved the club before he even got here and took a financial penalty to play for us. So we made the best financial and footballing offer to him

He then played 2 years where he out performed the last contract so we bumped him up to around 250k which is fair value. the fact that we had two or three players paid more than him is meaningless. Those players were clearly and mistakenly overpaid

Two years after his new contract we bump it up again with an extra year and now wages around 300 k which has made him overpaid because he's actually been performing worse than he was on his prior contracts.

So the club that bumped up his pay twice before the length of his first contract is even up is absolutely underpaying him? You're deluded and talking shite.
 
We can go on about individual players and their quality (or lack of) when it comes down to the big moments in big games but this is Brighton for God sake.

Let's be realistic, many of us went into the game yesterday expecting to lose and would have taken a point. This is unacceptable.

Brighton are a fair PL side, but on an individual basis they are miles and miles behind us. You don't need to look far to find a post of mine criticising Rashford, but that lad on the RW for Brighton yesterday, despite TNTs best efforts to talk him up, was dreadful.

Likewise, they don't have a single player anywhere near, not on the same planet, as Bruno.

They had a teenager at LB, a poor man's Maguire at CB with another player who has been in and out of their side, Danny Welbeck at CF. Nothing of any note really...how many of them play for their national teams? Cant be many. Joao Pedro would be the only player I'd take in our squad right now, and that's as a rotation option.

So why are we going into these games not expecting to win? Why are we consistently outplayed by far inferior players? It HAS to be the manager.

Say what you want about our players...but the vast, vast majority of our squad (nevermind XI) would walk into Brighton's team...and yet here we are, with only one win in 5 against them, and that was a dead rubber.
Its the manager and the players. All good saying how good Rashford and Bruno are on paper but if they don't follow instructions/run more/ fight harder than their less skilled opponents then those same opponents will kick their ass.
 
You can get some rare exceptions like a Totti but even then part of it is to do with comfort like you said not love. Gerrard wanted to leave to go to Chelsea before he was basically threatened to stay.

. When it comes to Brunos wages here are the facts:

When we first bought him he was paid what he was worth if not more unless you think he loved the club before he even got here and took a financial penalty to play for us. So we made the best financial and footballing offer to him

He then played 2 years where he out performed the last contract so we bumped him up to around 250k which is fair value. the fact that we had two or three players paid more than him is meaningless. Those players were clearly and mistakenly overpaid

Two years after his new contract we bump it up again with an extra year and now wages around 300 k which has made him overpaid because he's actually been performing worse than he was on his prior contracts.

So the club that bumped up his pay twice before the length of his first contract is even up is absolutely underpaying him? You're deluded and talking shite.
Comfort is a part of the reason you'd feel love for the club. The two aren't mutually exclusive. I feel a huge sense of comfort with my fiancée and it's part of the reason I love her. As for the Gerrard thing, again, you're talking rubbish. If he'd really wanted to leave he would have - papers like the mail printed rubbish about death threats etc but that happens to most big players that move to rivals - see figo to Madrid - but it doesn't stop them. Gerrard himself has said he never intended to leave, he just wanted Liverpool to offer what he felt he was due.

As for Bruno, he started off woefully underpaid and then, within the wage structure in the squad that we set up, he continued to be underpaid Vs players like rashford. You can say 'it's meaningless what others are paid' but, again, you're talking shite. Players obviously use each other to salary benchmark. It's not complicated.
 
Reality is, these two aren't such great players for us to be stressing about them this much. Keep them if they perform. If they don't get rid. We should believe in our overall process such that if they do leave we will replace them with ease. This is why a team like City can let go of Palmer. Great player, unfortunate to see him go - but they'll replace him.
 
Comfort is a part of the reason you'd feel love for the club. The two aren't mutually exclusive. I feel a huge sense of comfort with my fiancée and it's part of the reason I love her. As for the Gerrard thing, again, you're talking rubbish. If he'd really wanted to leave he would have - papers like the mail printed rubbish about death threats etc but that happens to most big players that move to rivals - see figo to Madrid - but it doesn't stop them. Gerrard himself has said he never intended to leave, he just wanted Liverpool to offer what he felt he was due.

As for Bruno, he started off woefully underpaid and then, within the wage structure in the squad that we set up, he continued to be underpaid Vs players like rashford. You can say 'it's meaningless what others are paid' but, again, you're talking shite. Players obviously use each other to salary benchmark. It's not complicated.

How did he start off woefully underpaid when he literally accepted the best offer he could get?

Also Rashford only signed his new contract in July 2023 so you're the one chatting shite unless you mean Bruno was only underpaid compared to Rashford for that one year period.
 
How did he start off woefully underpaid when he literally accepted the best offer he could get?
You have no idea whether anyone else was offering more, so this is pure speculation. But aside from this, for his quality and what he went on to do, as well as his immediate importance to the team, he was underpaid.
 
Reality is, these two aren't such great players for us to be stressing about them this much. Keep them if they perform. If they don't get rid. We should believe in our overall process such that if they do leave we will replace them with ease. This is why a team like City can let go of Palmer. Great player, unfortunate to see him go - but they'll replace him.

Exactly. They should be treated like Martial or Pogba or whoever. Rashford I can at least understand since he's a local boy and a youth product but Bruno is just out of desperation.
 
Reality is, these two aren't such great players for us to be stressing about them this much. Keep them if they perform. If they don't get rid. We should believe in our overall process such that if they do leave we will replace them with ease. This is why a team like City can let go of Palmer. Great player, unfortunate to see him go - but they'll replace him.
Except it's nothing like city and Palmer. Palmer was a talented but unproven kid when he left. Bruno has been out best player since arriving. Also, If city could look ahead in time do you really think they'd have been so quick to let him go?

I agree that players should be sold if they don't perform, but Bruno has performed year after year.
 
You have no idea whether anyone else was offering more, so this is pure speculation. But aside from this, for his quality and what he went on to do, as well as his immediate importance to the team, he was underpaid.

Are you seriously suggesting Bruno took less money to initially sign with United? It's not speculation to assume that a player in 2019 signing for Manchester United would be getting amongst the best if not the best wages for his role in world football. For his quality and what he's done the past couple of seasons he's been overpaid and since signing the new contract he's about to compete with Rashford and Sancho to be the most overpaid player in world football.
 
Are you seriously suggesting Bruno took less money to initially sign with United? It's not speculation to assume that a player in 2019 signing for Manchester United would be getting amongst the best if not the best wages for his role in world football. For his quality and what he's done the past couple of seasons he's been overpaid and since signing the new contract he's about to compete with Rashford and Sancho to be the most overpaid player in world football.
I'm saying you've got no idea what other offers were on the table. Rumours were that Barca were also in for him, at the peak of their overpaying splurge. I think the Ronaldo connection gave us the edge moreso than the financials.

Also, you're saying he's been poor the last couple of seasons? You're talking utter nonsense, with respect. The stats are there but, of course, you'll say that the eye test puts the lie to the stats (ot doesn't). This conversation is utterly pointless. We're going around in circles.
 
Which quality? Creating chances you might say?

Last season, Even Elanga had more assists than Bruno Fernandes. You don't believe.. Confirm it.
He was tied with Pereira

2023 Eriksen had more assists than him.
2024 Scot had more goals than him. Bruno scored only 6 non penalty goals. Scott has 7. Bruno had 4 more penalties.

As you can see, he's not that a performer. Just the United media amplifying him. He's just a 'good a season' average player like Eriksen and Scot in output results.

This is what people do not usually want to accept. Bruno is a Europa League quality player. And he will end his career as such.

A big below tier, to the likes of Bernardo Silva, his country man, age mate, of same physical physique. While Bernardo scores against Madrid in Semi Finals of champions league, Bruno has never played in such a game in his life.

It's usually incredible how Bruno is viewed as a football royalty while he has achieved absolutely nothing in his career :lol:
Assists are just a terrible way to judge a playmaker.

Take a situation where a playmaker makes a killer pass behind the defense that sends two players through, and one of these players makes a square pass for the other to score a tap-in. Just looking at the records, you'd believe the playmaker did nothing when anyone watching the match would know he was the one who created the chance.

The playmaker's job is to put the attackers in favorable situations inside or around the box. Whether these players can finish the action or not should have no bearing on his evaluation.

He's a pretty poor finisher though because he tends to overcomplicate his shots.
 
Which quality? Creating chances you might say?

Last season, Even Elanga had more assists than Bruno Fernandes. You don't believe.. Confirm it.
He was tied with Pereira

2023 Eriksen had more assists than him.
2024 Scot had more goals than him. Bruno scored only 6 non penalty goals. Scott has 7. Bruno had 4 more penalties.

As you can see, he's not that a performer. Just the United media amplifying him. He's just a 'good a season' average player like Eriksen and Scot in output results.

This is what people do not usually want to accept. Bruno is a Europa League quality player. And he will end his career as such.

A big below tier, to the likes of Bernardo Silva, his country man, age mate, of same physical physique. While Bernardo scores against Madrid in Semi Finals of champions league, Bruno has never played in such a game in his life.

It's usually incredible how Bruno is viewed as a football royalty while he has achieved absolutely nothing in his career :lol:
I think you are being overly harsh here, yeah he has his flaws but he has produced for us. He had an excellent game against city in the final and his assist was of very high quality, if Bernardo did the same thing you would be creaming your pants.
 
Except it's nothing like city and Palmer. Palmer was a talented but unproven kid when he left. Bruno has been out best player since arriving. Also, If city could look ahead in time do you really think they'd have been so quick to let him go?

I agree that players should be sold if they don't perform, but Bruno has performed year after year.
It might not be a similar situation but the principle still stands. A successful club is willing to let anyone go, because they trust in their bigger picture. We have to sort our bigger picture out (looks like we are) and then things like letting players go won't matter. I also don't agree with the bolded, but that's a whole discussion itself.

And yes I do think City still would have let him go. Palmer is doing really well because he is accomodated for. City wouldn't build around him like Chelsea do.
 
I'm saying you've got no idea what other offers were on the table. Rumours were that Barca were also in for him, at the peak of their overpaying splurge. I think the Ronaldo connection gave us the edge moreso than the financials.

Also, you're saying he's been poor the last couple of seasons? You're talking utter nonsense, with respect. The stats are there but, of course, you'll say that the eye test puts the lie to the stats (ot doesn't). This conversation is utterly pointless. We're going around in circles.

Yes I am saying that and I agree this conversation is pointless.
 
Assists are just a terrible way to judge a playmaker.

Take a situation where a playmaker makes a killer pass behind the defense that sends two players through, and one of these players makes a square pass for the other to score a tap-in. Just looking at the records, you'd believe the playmaker did nothing when anyone watching the match would know he was the one who created the chance.

The playmaker's job is to put the attackers in favorable situations inside or around the box. Whether these players can finish the action or not should have no bearing on his evaluation.

He's a pretty poor finisher though because he tends to overcomplicate his shots.
But assists aren't the only metric where he excels. It's also in big chance creation. Now feel free to explain why that's also a useless metric, as well as the two combined.
 
Bruno is 90th + percentile in expected assists, shot creating actions, and progressive passes. Oh and he manages to do that while also being almost 90th percentile at pressing and defensive actions.

There literally isn't a player of his caliber in the world with this combination of creation and pressing. So you all are deranged if you think he isn't our best player.

Only argument i'd have is he needs to be more clinical in finishing chances. And also we now finally have strikers and wingers (not named Rashford) to finish the chances he creates.
 
It might not be a similar situation but the principle still stands. A successful club is willing to let anyone go, because they trust in their bigger picture. We have to sort our bigger picture out (looks like we are) and then things like letting players go won't matter. I also don't agree with the bolded, but that's a whole discussion itself.

And yes I do think City still would have let him go. Palmer is doing really well because he is accomodated for. City wouldn't build around him like Chelsea do.
But this isn't a controversial statement is it? Of course clubs should be willing to let underperforming players go. The thing is Bruno hasn't underperformed. We'll see if that holds for this season.
 
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