Are Bruno and Rashford a problem?

[Jacob]

Remove Bruno from the headline

 

[ifightdragons]

Not at all. It only works if you have players who can finish those chances. That doesn't mean the team should stop creating them.



Look at the quality of the strikers in those eras.

It's gone from RVP, Rooney, Chicharito, Welbeck and Falcao to Hojlund and Zirkzee.

Just casually and conveniently leaving out strikers like Zlatan, Cavani and Ronaldo.

No one's saying we've had the best strikers in the last 10 years. But we've had strikers who had great in-box awareness and movement.

Bottom line: Keep possession enough and your xG will rise, inevitably leading to more goals scored. It doesn't matter if Bruno is playing or not, he has never actually made us better at getting goals or points. His individual chance creation stats are the only thing that's been good, and last time I checked individual stats mean f all in a league table.

 

[Pickle85]

Go figure! Now there is a stat that matters.

Its not opinion, its reality. As I mentioned earlier even using stats he doesn't show at the top level, not sure what your cherry picking from. You can accept mediocrity at Brighton, West Ham, Everton and the list goes on, however this is Manchester United. Bruno Fernandes is mediocrity. Whether you think that or not is irrelevant. Talk to anyone who has played at a high level and they will tell you the exact same thing. Looking at it through rose coloured glasses doesn't change the reality. The funniest comment is "there is more than one way to lead". Well compared to Keane, who pretty much won it all and played for a championship team, I think I would take that way over the "Bruno" way. Unwillingness to drop his head and give up, really? The guy makes lazy plays. Whatever, I cannot believe I am even responding to this drivel.

You know that simply saying 'it's not opinion, it's reality' doesn't make you correct right? As for cherry picking stats, that's exactly what you've done. Namely one stat to do with ball retention. You've just followed it up with empty nonsense like 'You can accept mediocrity at Brighton, West Ham, Everton and the list goes on, however this is Manchester United. Bruno Fernandes is mediocrity' (again, stating it as if it's fact doesn't make it so), and 'The guy makes lazy plays' (what does this even MEAN?!) Your counter to my point that there's more than one way to lead seems to be 'yeah well I'd take keane over Bruno as a leader'. Well... yes. Duh. I think almost all of us would. That doesn't make Bruno a poor leader, it just means that Keane was an exceptional one.

As for 'Talk to anyone who has played at a high level and they will tell you the exact same thing'...would you say that Kevin de Bruyne has played at a high level? As he obviously rates him. Or do you just mean caf posters that played for Widness or Taunton or whatever, but that also just happen to agree with your stance?

 

[Idxomer]

Who called him prolific? He outscored both our CFs last season and hes not their top talent CF was the point

Because he scored a bunch of penalties (10 of them). He didn't outscore Hojlund in the PL anyway, even if you include his 4 penalties. In all competitions, Hojlund scored as many as their two young strikers combined from open play.

 

[Dans]

Yes, both are absolutely the problem.

Rashford has always been an average player. Even back when many on here thought he was good. He is a winger with zero technical ability and skill who only relies on pace in a counterattacking style of play. If you ever put on a City or Madrid match, you will see how Doku, Savinho, and Vini Jr cause havoc with their dribbling. Rashford has never ever been able to do that. His dribbling relies primarily on outpacing defenders, which is useless when playing against low block teams.

Bruno is a luxury style player that can only shine in midtable teams where he can be given the liccense to do anything he wants as their star player. I do not believe it is possible for any team featuring him to have a cohesive functioning midfield, and throughout his 10+ year career he has never once been apart of one. Many on here made excuses that his teammates here are poor and how on Portugal with better teammates he looks great. Then at the Euro when he finally played against real teams, he looked terrible. Once again though his fanboys changed the narrative, now claiming his Portugal teammates are crap too. Its amazing how unlucky this guy is, his teammates are apparently always "crap" for some reason. Even at Sporting he was apparently carrying them, yet they never made a legitimate title challenge while he was there. You would think that since he was carrying Sporting they surely musta done terrible after he left right.....well no they won the league the very next season

Can't disagree with anything other than the bit about Rashford's dribbling relying on pace. He has no dribbling skill whatsoever and can only move the ball forward and try and beat his man running after it. Problem is even if he does he then stops and cuts back because he can't cross with his left.

 

[Superunknown]

I don't consider Bruno to be a problem. He's still one of our most important players and we're more likely to score with him on the pitch than off it. I don't like how we keep moving him around and would much rather we kept him in that advanced midfield/behind the striker/s position.

Rashford is a huge problem, as is our whole front three. It's very weak and all of those places are up for grabs and are upgradeable, imo.

 

[Musclehead]

You know that simply saying 'it's not opinion, it's reality' doesn't make you correct right? As for cherry picking stats, that's exactly what you've done. Namely one stat to do with ball retention. You've just followed it up with empty nonsense like 'You can accept mediocrity at Brighton, West Ham, Everton and the list goes on, however this is Manchester United. Bruno Fernandes is mediocrity' (again, stating it as if it's fact doesn't make it so), and 'The guy makes lazy plays' (what does this even MEAN?!) Your counter to my point that there's more than one way to lead seems to be 'yeah well I'd take keane over Bruno as a leader'. Well... yes. Duh. I think almost all of us would. That doesn't make Bruno a poor leader, it just means that Keane was an exceptional one.

As for 'Talk to anyone who has played at a high level and they will tell you the exact same thing'...would you say that Kevin de Bruyne has played at a high level? As he obviously rates him. Or do you just mean caf posters that played for Widness or Taunton or whatever, but that also just happen to agree with your stance?

With all do respect, it is quite obvious you haven't played sport at a high level. No worries, it is what it is. Not really sure where ball retention came into play, the stats I was citing were assists, which De B had more than Bruno in half the games played, which really for a mid is a strong indication of his passing ability, which is pretty brutal at less than 80% last yr. You pretty much gave credence to the fact that Bruno is not of the quality of Keane or Rooney or a long list of previous captains which is the point. He is not that good. As to the emblem on the shirt, it has a history, it has an expectation that is far from being met. You look at the game different from myself. All the best!

 

[Bertie Wooster]

I think we've had one of those frustrating either / or scenarios (with neither ideal), where we look more of a solid unit with Mount in the #10 role, adding defensive work rate - but at the cost of our attacking threat.

And we look far more of an attacking threat with Fernandes in the #10 role with his creativity and goal scoring ability, but at the cost of us being much more open and easier to run through and the game being more like an end to end Basketball match.

I'm hoping the addition of Ugarte playing farther back will help a lot in that regard when Fernandes is back at #10, and lessen the importance of Mount being in there to give us more security. That should hopefully help cover up one of Bruno's biggest weaknesses and help put more emphasis on his positives.

 

[Cassidy]

Because he scored a bunch of penalties (10 of them). He didn't outscore Hojlund in the PL anyway, even if you include his 4 penalties. In all competitions, Hojlund scored as many as their two young strikers combined from open play.

He outscored them regardless. By the way you might want to check who won the majority of the penalties he scored.

 

[Musclehead]

Yes, both are absolutely the problem.

Rashford has always been an average player. Even back when many on here thought he was good. He is a winger with zero technical ability and skill who only relies on pace in a counterattacking style of play. If you ever put on a City or Madrid match, you will see how Doku, Savinho, and Vini Jr cause havoc with their dribbling. Rashford has never ever been able to do that. His dribbling relies primarily on outpacing defenders, which is useless when playing against low block teams.

Bruno is a luxury style player that can only shine in midtable teams where he can be given the liccense to do anything he wants as their star player. I do not believe it is possible for any team featuring him to have a cohesive functioning midfield, and throughout his 10+ year career he has never once been apart of one. Many on here made excuses that his teammates here are poor and how on Portugal with better teammates he looks great. Then at the Euro when he finally played against real teams, he looked terrible. Once again though his fanboys changed the narrative, now claiming his Portugal teammates are crap too. Its amazing how unlucky this guy is, his teammates are apparently always "crap" for some reason. Even at Sporting he was apparently carrying them, yet they never made a legitimate title challenge while he was there. You would think that since he was carrying Sporting they surely musta done terrible after he left right.....well no they won the league the very next season

Yup, pretty much sums Bruno up! He is not the player some make him out to be and nowhere near good enough to captain Manchester United! Until this is realized, forget challenging for the league.

 

[honirelandboy]

I just think Rashford is extremely limited and panics under pressure with the ball. His poisitioning is also gone awful. His crossing and short ranging passing along with through balls is pretty bad as well. He's 27 in October and has only had two good seasons. He can spread a long pass across to the other side of the pitch well though. He just seems to drive at defenders these days with no real outcome. He definitely needs to be moved on along with Maguire.

Bruno is a good player but the system we currently play under Ten Hag I don't think suits him. He gives the ball away too much but definitely a place in the squad for him. Maybe with Ugarte now we can see a different Bruno.

 

[Pickle85]

With all do respect, it is quite obvious you haven't played sport at a high level. No worries, it is what it is. Not really sure where ball retention came into play, the stats I was citing were assists, which De B had more than Bruno in half the games played, which really for a mid is a strong indication of his passing ability, which is pretty brutal at less than 80% last yr. You pretty much gave credence to the fact that Bruno is not of the quality of Keane or Rooney or a long list of previous captains which is the point. He is not that good. As to the emblem on the shirt, it has a history, it has an expectation that is far from being met. You look at the game different from myself. All the best!

With all 'do' respect, playing sport to a high level doesn't make you any sort of authority on this. What sport did you happen to play and to what level, by the way?

You say you didn't mention ball retention and then go on to mention Bruno's pass completion stat (which you mentioned again in an earlier post). For a knowledgeable, high level athlete such as you I'm surprised you don't see the correlation between ball retention and pass completion success. Unless the sport in which you were successful was boxing and you've been hit in the head one too many times.

And yes, I agree he's not as good a leader as Keane. I never said he was so I don't know why you're trying to build this straw man. Very, very few players in premier league history are.

 

[ifightdragons]

Yes, both are absolutely the problem.

Rashford has always been an average player. Even back when many on here thought he was good. He is a winger with zero technical ability and skill who only relies on pace in a counterattacking style of play. If you ever put on a City or Madrid match, you will see how Doku, Savinho, and Vini Jr cause havoc with their dribbling. Rashford has never ever been able to do that. His dribbling relies primarily on outpacing defenders, which is useless when playing against low block teams.

Bruno is a luxury style player that can only shine in midtable teams where he can be given the liccense to do anything he wants as their star player. I do not believe it is possible for any team featuring him to have a cohesive functioning midfield, and throughout his 10+ year career he has never once been apart of one. Many on here made excuses that his teammates here are poor and how on Portugal with better teammates he looks great. Then at the Euro when he finally played against real teams, he looked terrible. Once again though his fanboys changed the narrative, now claiming his Portugal teammates are crap too. Its amazing how unlucky this guy is, his teammates are apparently always "crap" for some reason. Even at Sporting he was apparently carrying them, yet they never made a legitimate title challenge while he was there. You would think that since he was carrying Sporting they surely musta done terrible after he left right.....well no they won the league the very next season

This post is so true, it should be pinned.

 

[POF]

Just casually and conveniently leaving out strikers like Zlatan, Cavani and Ronaldo.

No one's saying we've had the best strikers in the last 10 years. But we've had strikers who had great in-box awareness and movement.

Bottom line: Keep possession enough and your xG will rise, inevitably leading to more goals scored. It doesn't matter if Bruno is playing or not, he has never actually made us better at getting goals or points. His individual chance creation stats are the only thing that's been good, and last time I checked individual stats mean f all in a league table.

Zlatan had left United before Bruno joined and only further emphasises my point.

Cavani was 33 and Ronaldo 36. Definitely top strikers at the peak of their game.

 

[ifightdragons]

Zlatan had left United before Bruno joined and only further emphasises my point.

Cavani was 33 and Ronaldo 36. Definitely top strikers at the peak of their game.

Again, you're just missing the entire point.

No matter who we've played as a striker both before and after Bruno, we've never managed to score enough goals. Even though we've had strikers like those I mentioned that did score quite a lot of goals, it didn't change the fact that we still don't score enough.

Yeah, I said so myself that they weren't the best, but they still were great at being at the right place even at their age.

We even had Rashford bagging 30 goals (anomaly for him btw, not his true level), and that did nothing to improve our total goals tally. All the while we still managed to pretty much more or less match our xG in all these seasons. All with Bruno playing.

So the point is: It doesn't matter who our striker is. Adding Bruno hasn't made our xG go up. We still create far too little high value chances to score anywhere near the 90 goals we need to challenge. Our xG is usually around 60. And we usually manage around 60 goals. All we've done by adding Bruno is takeb numbers away from the collective squad, and added it to Bruno's individual stats. So adding Bruno hasn't improved our collective chance creating or goal scoring one bit, and that's a cold, hard fact.

 

[Tomtattoo]

Rashord is a problem for sure. Complete waste of money, zero performance for high wage. Bruno is different. I genuinly think that at the moment there's only 2 players in the squad who could be a starter in every top team. Bruno and Martinez (if he is healthy). Of course the portuguese isn't perfect, constant whinig, childish behavior on the pitch but still, his skills, creativity saves the team from finishing in the bottom half. Without him United would have finished outside the top 10 last year. I also appreciate him because he spent already almost 5 years at a totally dead football club and still has some motivation.

 

[Hughie77]

Rashford is more of an issue than any other player, needs to get his head out of his ass and run at players take them on use his pace use his size he does none of it..

 

[leeroyTX]

I think it might be time for Rashford to go. I think he needs to leave England all together. La Liga or PSG. Go out and do something new in a new place and get his confidence back. If an offer someone comes in before the end of the period on Friday (that's financially logical), United should take it.

I don't see that happening, of course. But at the bare minumum, it's time that Garnacho starts on the left with Amad on the right. Rashy has done well off the bench in the past. Maybe he can be a super sub against Liverpool this weekend.

I was not pleased at Bruno's performance last week against Brighton. He was bad. Passing was poor. Decision making was poor. Shooting was horrid. But that's a 1-off kind of thing and I expect him to be back to his commanding self this weekend...especially if EtH starts Zirkzee over Mount.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Remove Bruno from the headline

Should be a separate thread, Bruno should not be lumped in with Rashford.
Bruno is a tactical ‘difficulty’ I think it’s fair to say.
Rashford just hasn’t been good enough.

 

[Malons]

I think it might be time for Rashford to go. I think he needs to leave England all together. La Liga or PSG. Go out and do something new in a new place and get his confidence back. If an offer someone comes in before the end of the period on Friday (that's financially logical), United should take it.

I don't see that happening, of course. But at the bare minumum, it's time that Garnacho starts on the left with Amad on the right. Rashy has done well off the bench in the past. Maybe he can be a super sub against Liverpool this weekend.

I was not pleased at Bruno's performance last week against Brighton. He was bad. Passing was poor. Decision making was poor. Shooting was horrid. But that's a 1-off kind of thing and I expect him to be back to his commanding self this weekend...especially if EtH starts Zirkzee over Mount.

I don't buy confidence as being the issue with Rashford. I don't see any doubt in himself, I see petulance at perceived lack of appreciation for his talents. That interview he gave. "Doubt me? Even better". His issue is not being being mature enough to make the transition from nation's sweetheart to receiving criticism leveled at well-paid, high-profile players get when they don't perform. And that has affected him, no doubt.

In many ways the club are to blame. Ferguson would have reigned all that in much earlier. Sought to prevent him going to all the parties and the award ceremonies. The club under Woodward lapped it up, desperate for any piece of good news that could be sold to promote the United 'brand'. When we should have been keeping his feet on the ground, we were probably desperate to get him booked on Graham Norton.

As Brian Clough might say, it gave him a big head. My guess is once he was treated like a superstar in the mainstream, having to come back to the boring basics of football like running, tracking back, pressing and working hard - all the unglamourous, bread and butter stuff - is something that was beneath him. I don't think we're seeing someone who lacks confidence, I think we're seeing someone with too much confidence and is struggling to shake off a disbelief that everyone doesn't appreciate him.

 

[OwlvsFox]

Both are a problem, but Rashford is the biggest one. I said it during last window on the back of a good season he had for us is that we should take any decent offer that comes our way and run.

Lets see if with a proper young energetic DM, we can hide Bruno flaws as he is our best creator.

I don't want Tikki Takka football or rock band style football like Klopp, I want to see good old football we played under SAF times i.e. play according to the situation and have players who can play any style. Players who can control the tempo, who can counter attack, good in transition, long pass, short pass, killing the game when it needs to be killed and so on.

 

[appleman]

No disrespect, but is Bruno really the best player on this team? Then give him the BP, which I disagree with and give the armband to someone who will lead. Bruno is part of the problem here. I am hoping they can build him up and get some money back. Time in and time out he makes horrible passes that stagnate great progress. This is not a guy you want on your team if you want to be at the top of the field. In fact I could put together a highlight reel on a game by game basis of his horrible passes and brain farts that would be 10x his productive ones.
Do not gauge what a championship team is by what is on the field at present. There are some pieces that can fit, but they are still at least 3 or 4 away from really competing. The fact that Manchester United do not have at least 3 high level strikers is embarrassing. I'm not saying the 3 best in the world, but at least 1 in the top 10 and maybe 2 in the top 30.
The thing is, you need to see progress here. That means challenging for a top 4 spot. Anything less is a failure. ETH needs to watch games from SAF tenure, see how things work, understand what a true offensive team looks like. This sit back transition thing does not work with this team. They need to use the great offense = good defense strategy that was emblematic of this team for decades. Ever notice how many backward passes there are? I would bet they lead the league going in the wrong direction. I get the reset, but that reset needs to be followed up with some forward flow. We have gone through a decade of pain that should not have happened. I put all this on the Glazers, who chose Woodward and he had no right to be involved in football operations anywhere. This team is just not at the level they should be, part on players, part on management. ETH is on a very short string right now. A couple of losses in a row and he can go and win his trophy's elsewhere.

That's up to debate. I personally am not a huge fan of Bruno, but I also feel like I might underrate him as a result. In the end he's been one of the more consistent factors. But then again, so has McTominay. I didn't like Tadic either, but on the other hand he was the MVP of possibly the strongest Ajax side of all time (times are incomparable of course, as with life, even football is continually changing).

I don't really care enought about the class of Man Utd or who would be Top 10 or Top 30 striker. They tried getting Osimhen and - more clearly admittedly - Kane before, but as with other team and competitive sports, there are dependencies. Instead Hojlund became an option and they went for a potential instead. Now the other option up front is Zirkzee, another work in progress but of a different mould. If that works, it would be great, but if it won't, then they have to try another way, again.

This team is not done and the more times the turnaround fails to be seen through, the bigger the next turnaround will have to be. United still has the name - sort of - but not everything every manager has done since SAF was horrible, it just was... not quite. Maybe some could have used more time, perhaps some preferably less. In the end it's a guess where you try to increase the odds of your 11 beating another 11 and hoping those odds pay off often enough to end higher than another on list built on dependencies of form of the day, opponent form, opportunities increasing/decreasing during the game and basically luck in all of that coming to fruition.

Honestly it's still unclear whether ETH and MU are a match. He is a good coach, MU has options, but with more or less luck, it's also been hit-and-miss basically the entire tenure, with (at least relatively to other times) more misses than hits, unfortunately. Whether all this post-2013 era is down to the Glazers... there's been worse owners with better luck. Don't think they built a structure to increase the odds enough, but in the end it's all odds.

Still think it should work out with ETH, but there's plenty reason to consider possibly better odds elsewhere. The team is increasing in quality again, but is it enough? Will Ugarte, Casemiro and Mainoo figure out more control? Will Bruno actually fit in as a smooth gear again, or will he stay the flapping engine of the entire car? I hope the former is still possible, but becoming a leader and forerunner of a team and then getting downgraded doesn't always lead to great team dynamics. Hopefully it's possible, but ETH with Bruno so far, Rashford to a lesser degree, Tadic before and arguably Blind during multiple moments in his ETH-Ajax career. He sticks to his leaders and sees more chance of building the strength in the others, rather than taking a leader away. It's common among many managers.

Simeone always did it too. Gabi and Tiago were a mainstay in his early tenure while they were also inconsistent. Then again, those were the most successful years and the teams were very clearly a team. There's always outsiders, but generally it seems to work. Again, ETH-Ajax was one of the best and consistent Ajaxes of all time, causing the beatings of Top5 League opponents, let alone of the likes of Madrid and Bayern, to become an actual chance instead of the big upheavals they were at the start.

But now it doesn't work. At least not yet. You almost hope Bruno himself would want to leave, because ETH won't send his leader away - not as long as he won't go Cristiano or Sancho - and the board can't just say the star has to go either. He's not underperforming enough for that.

So, part of where I was coming from was that part of this is us currently having to deal with Bruno, and finding ways to do that. Whether it's actually possible, we will find out down the road. Same thing for Zirkzee and or Hojlund becoming that "top 10-30 striker" and whether the MU amount of points will prove enough to be more than #5. Maybe the whole competition will crash and the champion will have points in the 70s like some of the good ole SAF days.

 

[appleman]

Brilliant post but I just believe if we have any notion of regaining our status as regular title chasers sooner we end this Experiment with Bruno earlier we can be on road to recovery .

Very fair, I tend to agree and hope he gets of this pedestal, but as he still is I wonder in what way he could work as an actual asset. I just don't know whether that step down in responsibility is something Bruno could deal with. Hopefully he proves me wrong in both consistency and modesty.

 

[Amar__]

Is there single team in the world who has such a duo of luxury players defensively wise?

They are literally invisible as soon as the opposition cross our halfway line, don't provide any help to the defence whatsoever. It's almost like watching Messi and Ronaldo walking around while two midfielders and fullbacks behind them chasing shadows and big parts of the pitch. Bruno runs a lot, but most of that is pressing up front a lot but like blindfolded dog, Mount in two games showed that he is much better presser than him despite being in the team for 5 minutes.

 

[Cassidy]

Yes they are both still problems. Rashford especially

 

[Sancho99]

There must be a clause in Rashford's contract on game time.

 

[-Supreme-]

And both have been integral part of our starting XI by far the longest

 

[MDFC Manager]

The pair will sink the next manager too.

 

[Bojan11]

These two are on bigger money than the Liverpool front-line yet are nowhere near as consistent.

 

[Red Devil 26]

Our delusional fanbase actually considered these two world class players. Some still believe Bruno is. Appalling standards.

 

[gorky_utd]

Both of them are problems.

 

[forevrared]

Rashford was probably better than Garnacho until the sub today, but so many sections of the fanbase have decided he’s the problem that he’ll never get another chance from them.

Bruno is simultaneously the most important player we have and seemingly incompatible with the type of football ten Hag seems to want to play.

 

[acnumber9]

Rashford was probably better than Garnacho until the sub today, but so many sections of the fanbase have decided he’s the problem that he’ll never get another chance from them.

Bruno is simultaneously the most important player we have and seemingly incompatible with the type of football ten Hag seems to want to play.

Logic is incompatible with the type of football Ten Hag wants to play.

 

[Top]

Bruno is just too damn sloppy.

 

[Based Adnan]

Chaos footballers who's ceiling when they're both on song is challenging for top 4. And they aren't on song and haven't been for a while.

This is who we're building our team around.

 

[2mufc0]

There's too much havok in the attack with these 2 plus Garnacho. Yeah it's great when it comes off but at the cost of control of the game.

 

[Swedish_Plumber]

Rashford was probably better than Garnacho until the sub today, but so many sections of the fanbase have decided he’s the problem that he’ll never get another chance from them.

Bruno is simultaneously the most important player we have and seemingly incompatible with the type of football ten Hag seems to want to play.

The match going fans had enough of him too by the sounds of it.

 

[Red Devil 26]

Rashford was probably better than Garnacho until the sub today, but so many sections of the fanbase have decided he’s the problem that he’ll never get another chance from them.

Bruno is simultaneously the most important player we have and seemingly incompatible with the type of football ten Hag seems to want to play.

Rashford was probably better than Garnacho until the sub today, but so many sections of the fanbase have decided he’s the problem that he’ll never get another chance from them.

Bruno is simultaneously the most important player we have and seemingly incompatible with the type of football ten Hag seems to want to play.

This chaotic, transition bullshit is only the type of football Bruno thrives under and masks some of his glaring flaws.
He's just not very good. And this brand of football will take us nowhere.

 

[Redstain]

Bruno was a disaster today, Rashford is bereft of confidence but he's kept it simple and the play ticking over.

Lost count how many times today the attack failed due to Fernandes Hollywood pass attempts.

If United get a half competent manager in, Bruno's period of being the talisman is over. It's not a surprise that he's never featured in a United which have a balance midfield.

 

[Hammondo]

We play with 2 midfielders, only team that play the way we do, he wouldn't get away with it anywhere else.