Amber Heard doesn’t deserve demonisation? She was happy to torpedo his career and reputation off the back of false allegations to further her own career and further her reputation from the perspective of being a victim of domestic abuse. She deserves exactly what she got in my opinion. She was happy to hijack the sympathy of actual domestic abuse victims. That said he did not come across well himself I agree. It was clearly a toxic relationship but two high profile junkies having spats continuously is sadly relatively normal in their world of Hollywood seemingly. However as far as we know regarding Antony, unless I’ve missed some key information then it’s once again he said/she said. And there’s plenty of men who commit these crimes and plenty of women falsely reporting these crimes. The point I was making was just that unless there’s damming public information like the greenwood case then he shouldn’t be treated the same.
Antony under investigation by Brazilian authorities for domestic abuse | Inquiries ended | Back in the squad
- Thread starter laughtersassassin
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If you don't know what the truth is then it's pretty strange to accuse the club of not defending it.
And there's the rub!
Which is why my posts seems so contradictory. And my emphasis is that these are not simple cases where we can pass judgment on the outside and certainly not as simple as accepting charges dropped as indicating innocence in the other case for instance.
Player needs to be placed on leave not making public statements. I dislike that the victims are taking to social media in addition to pressing charges but I also sympathize because for so many generations they are typically ignored or not believed especially against rich powerful men and social media levels the playing field for them. But it also disrupts the judicial process which in itself is flawed (see wrongful convictions).
Is that what you are doing by saying you believe they were abused? I'm confused.
For what it's worth, I think you've been making some excellent points in these posts. I suppose you're speaking a bit too much in general to really fit the specific subject of the thread, plus of course people miss a solution/conclusion (since you don't have one). But it's good to highlight the issue even if we can't solve it.
To the women, I would say:
hey, I believe you that you've been through something awful and it's brave of you to bring it to light. DV and SA cases with couples or partners can be notoriously tough to navigate and keep in mind that the outcome of this does not dictate whether or not you actually went through something awful and painful. You did and I'm sorry for your suffering. Your openness is helping a lot of silenced women in these situations that let them know they don't have to just tolerate things that happen to them because it has been ignored or not given credence simply because you're with someone. That is a win, regardless of the case.
To Antony, I would say:
You are a famous footballer now playing for the biggest club in the world. There are a lot of young men and women that look up to you as a hero and idol now and just because you have been accused of something they will not immediately jump to conclusions. There is a system and process in place that will prove your innocence. Be careful though about how you speak on this subject publicly. Remember you are an idol. There are a lot of women who are suffering at the hands of abusers and the last thing you want to do is to make it seem like anyone who accuses is a liar and they their suffering is trivial. Be compassionate to your accusor and know they are feeling some sort of pain. The process will show, you already know, that perhaps there is a misunderstanding or maybe something more. If the latter you will have to take responsibility and grow as a person. But you Already know in your heart you are innocent and don't forget that you are presumed innocent until strong evidence is produced. You do not have to worry. You have no need to use your position of wealth and fame to put down the accusor and potentially hurt the movement for women. The courts will redeem you.
It's not perfect and it doesn't resolve anything. But that's the dialogue in my head.
They said Greenwood was innocent but banished him anyway. I have no idea about whether he’s innocent, but that’s a very dangerous precedent to set. You just need to be accused and then tried in the court of public opinion to be punished. If you are a player and actually are innocent of what you have been accused of (as may or may not be the case with anthony), just sitting back and waiting to let justice be done doesnt seem smart. A statement like that and the precedent it set suggests that truth doesnt matter, or at least takes a back seat to public image.
To all parties, Antony and the women involved I’ll say the same thing.
if you’re telling the truth. I support you. If you’re lying, then I hope you get punished.
What they did was conclude he was innocent, say his future development would be best served elsewhere and then shipped him off on loan to Spain. I hardly call that definite.
When people’s opinions are based on beliefs or understandings, they can be debated.
When people’s opinions are who they are, you can’t debate that.
Nobody concluded Greenwood was innocent, the police simply could not hope to convict without the victims testimony.
Yes once they lost her support it was curtains for any prosecution
Demonization?
If Depp weren't granted divine intervention by their therapist or whoever spilled out he'll be broke and could have been in jail.
Amber was a sinister evil bitch who's lucky Depp was a forgiving hippies. And Depp wad actually shown to be far from manipulative, he was gold standard in being patience even facing a psychopath wife who shits on her bad literally speaking.
She deserves alot worse. If Depp was POC he would be locked in the cells for tens of years. Tens of years for something he did not commit. Try spending 20 hours in your room with nothing but books for 2 days and imagine that.
I know you seem need to know more about DV.
Who said DV victims go back for the violence? They go back despite the violence or repeated behaviour patterns.
Let's not turn this into another Greenwood discussion ffs.
Not surprised to see the same gobby cnuts who were in there with their shite also coming in here to spout the same stuff.
Not surprised to see the same gobby cnuts who were in there with their shite also coming in here to spout the same stuff.
What makes you think MU told the truth and nothing but the truth?
For me it's just a clear careful tiptoing of noy saying he's innocence which is impossible with the tapes already out, nor saying he's guilty because that would be catastrophic. What else can they possibly say? Anything less than this is admission of guilt or clearly defending the indefensible. Yes they can hide behind the "but the police didnt charge him" lines but not every fans can accept semantic defence.
The club is the weakest entity among the CPs, the Lawyer, Prosecutor, if Greenwood indeed have the evidence they'd show that to the CP and not Manchester United which is only his employer with no real authority to even interview his wife's parent without Greenwood consent.
And this is what football club do. You dont believe them when they claim the watchest is on but when it comes to Greenwood some of you take it as a divine judge who sees the whole truth, because that gives you coping mechanism to root for Greenwood still playing. Giving you the comfort of knowing hey... united says he's innocent
Maybe we should start believe Saudi statement next time
No such thing as a jury in Brazil so it's the last thing she would think about.
People need to understand that evidence is for court, but when it comes to the club it's way more than that.
The club needs to protect its image, and any incident that puts the club negatively under the spotlight should be dealt with. It doesn't matter if you agree or think it's fair, at a certain point we have the right to disassociate ourselves from these incidents, otherwise it'll cause a major disruption and it'll keep adding more heat on the club. And because this is Manchester United, this won't go away. Smaller clubs can get away with it, we can't. So the decision to suspend Antony or not will depend on how much the story, and the negativity surrounding it, drags on. It could be months before he gets charged or for the allegations to be dismissed, but I doubt the club will tolerate this for long.
The club needs to protect its image, and any incident that puts the club negatively under the spotlight should be dealt with. It doesn't matter if you agree or think it's fair, at a certain point we have the right to disassociate ourselves from these incidents, otherwise it'll cause a major disruption and it'll keep adding more heat on the club. And because this is Manchester United, this won't go away. Smaller clubs can get away with it, we can't. So the decision to suspend Antony or not will depend on how much the story, and the negativity surrounding it, drags on. It could be months before he gets charged or for the allegations to be dismissed, but I doubt the club will tolerate this for long.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to benefit from innocent until proven guilty according to the judicial process then you have to live by the rules. It worked out for Giggs and Depp quite recently.
If you're willing to make this a matter of public opinion and make this a media campaign, it inherently becomes something of a monster. And in this case, I am strongly of the opinion that women accusers in the public/social sphere are more acceptable because socially/culturally/legally their accusations are often hard to prove to the point that statistically their accusations are in vain more often than not despite something like 90% of them being truthful and generally people don't believe them. Unless they kick up a storm in public it often gets swept under the rug.
And that new material came to light... people forget that part. Also the fact that she apprently never wanted him charged in the first place, so the withdrawal of key witnesses a year and a half on is a bit misleading.
Appreciate you're reading through them. Indeed I think I've over done it entirely. The two players in question and the ongoing discussions have made for a lot to consider all at once and perhaps trying to create some broad sweeping perspective on it has wound up just making it all the more muddled.
Exactly. I'm not saying Anthony is innocent but the accusations are enough to possible ruin him regardless of the outcome. The damage is done.
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The courts awarded over $10million in damages for Depp for defamation. And I'm pretty sure Giggs was being paid the whole time so I don't agree with your comment.
Most importantly they didn't go to jail. The remaining fallout is part in parcel of being involved in such a proceeding which is why you see even innocent parties opt to settle out of court.
It absolutely is awful to be accused of something if you're completely innocent. Part of the reasons these scenarios have happened is because of audio, texts, transcripts that are not a good look for these organizations and force the hand rather than allowing say Depp to continue being in contract w Disney. That's on the organizations not a slight of the judicial system.
Social media isn't going to help either - you routinely see people lose their jobs for things on there regardless of the fairness.
I just don't understand this. I'll cite it again - another poster noted the popularity of convicted rapist Mike Tyson. I'll add to that the election of sexual assaulter Donald Trump. Legendary status of alcoholic and infidelity of George Best. And Chris fecking beat Rhianna to a pulp Brown is touring strong now and topping playlists.
These guys will be fine even if they are feckin guilty. The women, will never recover and getting some sort of emotional release from the public sharing and sense of social justice even if short lived is the best they can expect.
The list of famous people with sexual /violent convictions who continued or even reached the height of their careers after is scary. Hopefully times have changed, especially high profile cases from “ me to “ movement. Andup and coming actor / musician / athlete etc won’t enjoy success after such convictions.
This is bang on the head for me.
Think they’re both nuts and were in a clearly very toxic relationship. This is very common nowadays with the younger generation, this level of toxic behaviour is becoming more and more common and normalised.
A lot of them don’t even know what a normal and healthy relationship is meant to be like. Even if they did, they’re so nuts now they’d find it boring and crave for some chaos.
This is the type of comment you make when there is a lack of understanding of basic legal concepts.
The burden of proof rests with the plaintiff not the accused.
If you believe you're innocent, it is actually really important to come out and aggressively defend yourself, especially in cases where the involved parties are high profile.
I don't think she does. She came across as deluded and pathetic, but she thought she'd been wronged and was a victim. She's free to report accusations as she sees fit, and it's for the authorities to decide if it should go to trial. Had it been judge led (like the high court case she won here), she may even have won. Were it a normal guy and girl in the UK, the guy would have likely ended up in jail. Our high court determined he was an abuser and she was a victim. [2 facts: One that judges are less emotional than juries and see cold facts, and two the UK system generally does not see the abuse of men as important or justification for retaliation.)
It's not the victims/alleged victims responsibility to ensure justice is done, only to put forwards their side of the story. And they should be able to do so, even when they are 'wrong.' (and to be fair to Heard, she probably wasn't wrong.) Whether the justice system and media is the correct place for it, is another question.
She's free to allege whatever she wants. The justice system being a mess and setup to convict is not the fault of the complainant. The fact men are wrongly convicted is not the fault of the women who complain. (by and large). Women should not be cowed into not making a complaint because we are prejudiced against what abuse is 'real' and what is not.
I presume you’re part of the investigation?
True, he was neither concluded guilty nor innocent.
What don't you understand? He could be innocent but the accusations are enough to ruin his career. He could also be guilty and he'll face the consequences if he is but there is a chance he's innocent.
So what are you saying exactly? It's acceptable to wrongfully accuse someone if the accused will eventually be alright financially? It's never okay to wrongfully accuse someone.
Hopefully Anthony is innocent and he can recover from this. If he's not, then he made his choice and he should have kept his hands to himself.
Gonna be honest, not a fan of either of them going to the media for everything. She also really seems to be pushing for him to be dropped, which is also questionable. What's wrong with just staying quiet and letting the police do their thing??
He hasn't been charged
Well maybe he's just shit at football. Not a shame not being picked by Brazil. Tough competition
There hasn't been any charge. She only just brought the stuff to the police just now after going to the media 3 months ago to start it off. And what's wrong with dropping him? Quite simply I don't think you can or should drop players on the back of allegations. He heavily denies all, she accuses him. That's where we are at. You can't set a precedent that then opens the door to be accused, where someone strategically goes to ruin someone, knowing they can just before a world cup release an accusation in the press, it can be false, and yet this logic would have them miss a world cup.
Playing football is his career and livelihood. It's not about still being paid. It's about being a free and innocent person until you are charged or found guilty. As of now, this is just an allegation. Investigations can go on for ages. Partey for example was arrested, put on bail and never charged yet.
He's dropped by Brazil because of the media frenzy that she whipped up the day after he was announced in the squad... strategic timing to get him out of the squad. Also my point on it being a weird statement is that she should be concerned about finding justice, not annoyed/pissed off that United haven't dropped him (when it's only just gotten to the police).
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It won't ruin his career. I see Cristiano Ronaldo doing just fine and cited several other examples of prominent public figures who were actually guilty, forget innocence, and are doing fine. Your choice to ignore hard facts is insincere.
And just because I have faith in you to be better, couple more cold hard fact for you and the general forum population irked by accusations and automatically blaming the victims for ruining these athletes lives:
Review of data and research on the subjects at hand find the prevalence of false reporting is between 2 and 10 percent:
A multi-site study of eight U.S. communities
including 2,059 cases of sexual assault found
a 7.1 percent rate of false reports (Lonsway,
Archambault, & Lisak, 2009).
A study of 136 sexual assault cases in Boston
from 1998-2007 found a 5.9 percent rate
of false reports (Lisak et al., 2010).
Using qualitative and quantitative analysis,
researchers studied 812 reports of sexual
assault from 2000-2003 and found a 2.1
percent rate of false reports (Heenan
& Murray 2006).
More broadly on domestic violence , something like 1 in 3 people experience it with the vast majority going unreported. Of the reported, only about 8% are false accusations - so a whopping 92% of DV accusations are found to be true in proceedings.
https://www.thehotline.org/stakeholders/domestic-violence-statistics/
http://www.prosecutorintegrity.org/pr/survey-over-20-million-have-been-falsely-accused-of-abuse/
And the majority of false accusations seem to come from lower income individuals.
If you don't want to prematurely affect a players social standing off of accusations while also wanting to support the already fragile state of victims reporting crime, then the best thing you could do is ignore tabloid articles and click bait social media posts and threads on it and just wait for the investigation outcome before coming to defense.
(Also if anyone can find more recent studies and broad reviews on these subjects would be interesting to see how the numbers stack today post me-too and social media. )
You should do the same and be neutral. You're obviously biased and one sided. You are also ignoring the fact that he could be innocent aren't you? Why is that? Because he's a man and all men are guilty? Are you the judge and jury in this matter or do you have some type of hard evidence everyone else is unaware of? How do you know this case does not fall into the 2.1% that are false? How do you know this situation isn't in the 8% that are false?
I am a victim of DV and I could jump on the "all men are guilty" train but that's not how this works. Not all men are abusers and you shouldn't drag his name in dirt unless he's proven guilty.
Sure. Fair enough. An allegations alone shouldnt need to he dropped or suspended.
But I think the Brazilian FA aren't that stupid, and it's not like we've seen similar incidents happenings on a monthly basis so I think they knew something we don't.