Obviously not if you think they are not. Like. Because. Common sense.
Antony | Here we go! €100mill, contract until June 2027, option 'til 2028.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
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Obviously not if you think they are not. Like. Because. Common sense.
Simply, are Ajax better than PSG? Or Atletico?
PSG have done better than them in Europe. As have Atletico. Atletico have also managed to win a much better league since Ajax’ remarkable CL semi, and regularly compete. Then there is the common sense evaluation that the likes of Neymar, Mbappé, Di Maria, Icardi, Verratti, Marquinhos and co are significantly better than Tadic, Haller and Berghuis. Although that clearly isn’t a common sense to you because your spreadsheet says otherwise.
Also, what kind of opposition adjustment are they using? Ajax didn’t do better in the CL than United this season, and I’m not sure winning the Eredivise equates to being better than the PL top 6. If it is not based on this season alone, then last year, United were EL finalists and second in the PL. The season before, we were EL semi-finalists, and 3rd in the PL. To say that Ajax are statistically proven to be a better side than us is highly questionable, let alone the team that knocked us out of the CL, or PSG who were 2020 finalists and runaway league winners in France. Explain what opposition adjustment makes sense to determine Ajax are a better side. It is quite clearly nonsense.
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They are obviously better players. But they dont work as well together.
Since Tuchel took charge of PSG they have played 39 games in the CL. Translating their results to points, they have 72 points. An average of 1,85 points per game. Slightly better than EtHs average of 1,82 per game. But the trajectory for PSG is down. Pochettino only managed 1,5 points per game with PSG. I think it is a similar case for Atletico the past two seasons.
I also dont think ClubElo (or my simplification of results in CL) is a blueprint for anything. There is less than 1 percent difference between the point score of Ajax (1875) and PSG (1857). What I would argue the model imply, and their results in CL, is that Ajax is a really, really good team. On a similar level to almost any team in Europe. With a few exceptions that has been in a league of their own for a couple of years.
Is Atletico or PSG better? Have they been for the past two years? Maybe! But I dont think there is really much between the sides. Obviously in personnel. But as a team? I dont think so.
Was wondering what people think about Antony. Why are people discussing these clubs here?
There is no comparison between Ajax, United and Atletico. These are all great clubs in their own right. Let's not involve PSG in the discussion. As state backed club they deserve no respect for their strenght.
There is no comparison between Ajax, United and Atletico. These are all great clubs in their own right. Let's not involve PSG in the discussion. As state backed club they deserve no respect for their strenght.
Even our bid is too much for him, and they want 20 million more? Feck them, he is not worth those numbers. Move on.
You thinking Ajax are better ‘as a team’ than PSG and Atletico is subjective. There is no algorithm for deciding the best unit. Teams have different styles. Atletico are a fantastic ‘team’, for example. What we CAN look at is the results and the personnel. And in these results, CL performance is only a small margin of their games. And even then, as you put it, PSG have performed better. Then there is the domestic performance. Admittedly, Lille won the league one season, but other than that, PSG have won the rest of the last 5 in what is considered a ‘top 5 league’.
Ajax made the CL final in 2019 and haven’t done nearly as well since then. They have played in the Europa League since then, so to conclude that PSG are on a downward trajectory, but they are not, is even mathematically questionable. They have been doing progressively worse since their peak. PSG and Atleti have not featured in the EL.
And again, there is the obvious part that they have far superior footballers. And it’s not just names either, they have far superior footballers who have actually been doing well. Atleti won a top 2/3 league last year. United have finished 3rd then 2nd in what is considered the best league in the world in 2 of the last 3 seasons, and in this terrible one, they finished top 6. I’m not sure Ajax’ domestic wins count as better. I can’t see this Ajax squad finishing anywhere near the top 2/3 in any PL season. They would no way be favourites if they played us. We are better, with better players. Our disappointment is by our standards, not theirs.
I do agree, they have a good team. They play good football, and have some good young talent. But they are not a super team, and outside of their domestic titles, are not expected to either win or challenge for anything. Which is because they are recognised as, when adjusted for context, as being an average team. Even their domestic wins, they are winning ‘just about’. This season went down to the wire, and they won the league in 2020 by virtue of the season being cancelled and they were only top on goal difference at the time if I recall correctly.
But then again, you have yet to make a claim that is not just your opinion.
And there is plenty of algorithms and stats that give you a good inidication about how a team perform as a unit (if watching them play is not enough for you).
I also agree that Ajax is not a «super team». But neither was PSG or Atletico this year.
Honestly, while the price is high...manutd should definitely all in for anthony. Firstly, we really do need a RW. We dont have any top quality options for the RW since greenwoods departure. Secondly, he knows the system and will slot in seamlessly. Thirdly and more importantly, he really wants to come to manutd. We need to start going for players who really want to come rather than spending months on players who dont want to come here. Somehow, we never learnt this simple principle even after dealing with players like angel di maria and sanchez. Its an expensive waste of time and money. Just go for the option that really wants to come even if they are slightly worse
In my opinion this player is so underwhelming I am not sure why united want to sign. I could be wrong, but any clip I see, touches, passes I don't see a refined end product. If we are looking to loan him away then may be.
He's very young, but very exciting to watch. Someone unpredictable who draws multiple defenders to him. It's useful to open space for other dangerous attackers. However, for me the price is way out of line. I'd be comfortable spending £40m maximum on his potential if it were my money.
I would guess Ajax last season played a total of 50 games give or take, 34 in the league, 8 UCL and let's say 8 in the other cup.
If that algorithm is based on performance of last season then it would be rating their team on metrics based on the performance in these 50 games. Clearly 42 of those games were played against dutch opponents. Let's say 3 or 4 of those teams would be close to the quality of Ajax and also closer to the quality they faced in Europe. That would be 6-8 games with those teams in the league, let's take into account they face any of those clubs in the cup competition another 2-4 games. In total about 20 out of those 50 matches would be played against what would be classified as solid competition making 40% of their games.
So in the majority of their games in a typical season, they would be facing opposition that would be easily discarded by most teams they are apparently better than from that clubelo's list. I would also expect those 30 games against inferior opposition that give you fewer points do end up being significant in skewing total points more favourably to Ajax.
Now if the European matches are weighted significantly higher than domestic competition as you said and are done across multiple seasons including last, then I don't see how Ajax as performed better than any of Man utd/PSG across the past 5 seasons, which I think still leads to the conclusion that those games with poorer opposition in the Dutch league do end up being significant in the total point score.
Imagine loaning a £60 million rated player
The reason I have given you no more than opinion is because this isn’t a mathematical equation or a matter for algorithm. In this instance, my opinion of whether PSG are a better football team than Ajax would likely be the commonly held one. As will my opinion to broadly disregard their weekly churn against the likes of NEC Nijmeijen in this comparison.
I do think we'll sign him late in the window. The price worries me, but it would be an exciting signing.
Would anyone take Lisandro and Antony over De Jong b I can see that happening
We need a new midfield regardless of whether FDJ is part of it or not and do we really want to start the season with McFred?
Remember, Matic and Pogba are gone so we're definitely signing a new midfielder.
Would like those 2 players but if we come out of this summer without a new midfielder it would be a complete disaster
Agreed for me two CMs is priority over any other position except striker if Ronaldo leaves. Hopefully we can stretch the budget for all three though
He looks a good player but 69m? We are desperate to show movement in the market. Not saying, we should not sign a player with his ability or comparable but not at that price.
Ah well, ETH knows what he is getting with him. I was more impressed with Ziyech but never rated him high enough to see him as solution enough for us.
Ah well, ETH knows what he is getting with him. I was more impressed with Ziyech but never rated him high enough to see him as solution enough for us.
Ronaldo out, Antony in
I first need to say that Elo based rankings aren't a new concept and they can be robust, that's how FIDE or the IRB rank chess players or rugby teams and it's fairly accurate. Now it relies heavily on the ability of the people using it to not be complete morons and in the case of Clubelo, it's hard to not think that they possibly the dumbest people around. I will give you a fairly egregious example, they have Toulouse above Montpellier, now anyone that has even a basic knowledge of french Football will realize how stupid that is, in the league since 2012 Toulouse have been above Montpellier twice and they have been relegated in 2020. Troyes above Angers is an other wild one.
There is quite obviously something wrong with the way they attribute games because whether you look at short or long term their ranking is just wrong.
PS: The FIFA ranking is also Elo based and it's a mess.
Agreed. A decent central midfielder is absolutely non negotiable this summer.
PSG no, but Atletico I'd say they were last year, yeah. I watched their loss to Benfica in the CL and they were much better, though to be fair they lost due to Nunez bullying their left-side a bit and we might be signing Ajax's LCB.
If we sign Antony to replace Ronaldo then that means we’ll be rotating rashford and martial upfront… I think if ten Hag gets us playing as a team and a unit then martial and rashford can get 15+Goals a season. Will need help from sancho/Antony aswell but with the likes of Fernandes and eriksen creating chances all game then they’ll easily put some away. Sancho and eriksen will also chip in with a few goals.
Didn't watch the game, but from what I know about Nunez, he tends to love the left channel, which would be Ajax's right side.... Did you get mixed up or did he switch sides in that game?
Not a popular opinion here but yeah I agree. There's enough talent between Martial and Rashford to cover a season. If I had to bet, I think Martial will do better in the CF role. We also might run a City style 4-4-2 (with Eriksen + Bruno at CF) or Bruno as a false 9, lots of possibilities.
Yeah tbh it's what gives me hope even if we have a garbage window. A sign of a top manager is when his team gets raided every summer. Ajax don't have great players everywhere - sure they have some gems every year, but Ten Hag gets them playing together in a way that they just can't reproduce elsewhere, for the most part.
De Jong for me is different due to him looking absolutely brilliant for Netherlands and having all the qualities you would want in a deep playmaker. Also with us being linked to a bunch of his former players also doesn't worry me because it's ten hag managing anyway. But I'd be far more concerned/less confident about any of these former players if it was someone else as manager, as it's very hard to perform the same way in a different system.
But ten Hag here... I dunno. I feel like there will be a few surprises throughout the team and the performance levels that some of these players can reach.
Bruno as a false 9 could work… he has good movement and makes good runs. Be interesting to see how we line up with eriksen and Bruno and if they can work well together as they both like taking up similar spaces.
Antony is a RW, Ronaldo is a striker
And usually a good finisher. Why not try something new and advanced. A DM on top would be amazing though
Oh yeah convinced priority has shifted to a striker now but haven't got a clue who is the top target
For the money Ajax are asking, it’s either him or De Jong, not both
Catastrophe of a window
100% agreed.
it wouldn't work simply b/c we don't have the finishers around him that they do in our forward line or our midfield like a KdB or Silva
That front line looks at least two players short. We already need a right winger - if Ronaldo goes, we need a reliable goal scorer, too.
Just like we did with FDJ yes ?
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