Dude don't act like you knoe it all when you havent seen a game. I have seen all Ajax games. I know what I am talking about. You're also eager to disregard the fact that Antony was injured for a relevant part of the season. Tadic is the assist king for sure and he's a great player, but he also profits from Antony being the man that gets the attention of 2 or 3 defenders and then the space is created on the other side of the pitch. With Ajax'quick passing Tadic then gets much more space on the othet side. When Antony was not playing, Ajax struggled a lot more. He was the one getting things going and his presence gets any defense nervous.
Antony | Here we go! €100mill, contract until June 2027, option 'til 2028.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
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Agree. Its the most logical approach.
That's why I suspect that he will make do with the options ofAmad, Facundo, Sancho or Eriksen on the right. The RB is more an issue than the RW at the moment -- unless he keeps Brandon for this season as a trial at RB.
Spending anything close to 70m on this guy would be a mistake, tbh even 50m is pushing it.
If you watch his goals and assists for 21/22, you'll see just how bad the defences he was playing against are. Half of his goals were him just cutting in on his left and getting a free shot at goal.
Like Sancho's goals in Bundesliga, it's pretty easy to watch and extrapolate how many of those would happen in the PL. Very few.
Also his dribbling looks quite slow, unexplisove. Against stronger and more compact defences he'll struggle. What he does have going for him is that he's left footed, which we badly need, and seems to have a decent pass and shot on him. But from watching him he seems closer to the likes of Mikhitaryan than say Mane.
A big price for him is a risk. Around 40m I'd consider fair value, but if Ajax are wanting more then it's a considerable risk.
If you watch his goals and assists for 21/22, you'll see just how bad the defences he was playing against are. Half of his goals were him just cutting in on his left and getting a free shot at goal.
Like Sancho's goals in Bundesliga, it's pretty easy to watch and extrapolate how many of those would happen in the PL. Very few.
Also his dribbling looks quite slow, unexplisove. Against stronger and more compact defences he'll struggle. What he does have going for him is that he's left footed, which we badly need, and seems to have a decent pass and shot on him. But from watching him he seems closer to the likes of Mikhitaryan than say Mane.
A big price for him is a risk. Around 40m I'd consider fair value, but if Ajax are wanting more then it's a considerable risk.
Hint: it was their coach
I was thinking
Sancho Bruno Antony to be honest. Let Rashford work his way back into the team after the last two years of peak walking around looking sad
Which other business makes you say that? Nunez was €100M, even I didn't think it'd go that high. You have to remember Haaland's contract situation when he signed if you're going to mention that.
Look at this tough guy insulting me
Do I even need to explain that I don't mean a Woodward-controlled window? Can your imagination lead you to a place where we spend decisively on the players the manager is asking for? This isn't rocket science, same approach, different decision maker.
What are you talking about?
I NEVER said to pay £70-80M for Antony. Have you no shame you quoted me sir. I literally said £55M, over 30% less than what you're insinuating so I'm not sure what you're on about.I just don't get it, you're saying Murtough is trying to get the players the manager wants. The manager already knew who he wanted, a long time ago and yet here you are, buying what they're selling. I can see Murtough burning the midnight oil right now if I think hard enough
I can't believe I found someone in the world to defend this man other than Richard Arnold, you sir are a rare breed.Chelsea won the Champions League, I don't need to say anymore.
Actually, Not sure paying anything more than we paid for Depay is a right fee for Antony.
iirc Ziyech was an assist machine and Depay was a goal machine and both were twice the player than Antony in their last season in dutch league.
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2 years back Ajax performed well like Monaco did few years back as both had brilliant bunch of young players. Not sure last year Ajax is of same level. This season as ETH leaving will show the level of their current bunch of players.
Not sure about comparing performance in a top 5 league with Netherland or Belgium. It is same as adding MLS and Chinese league. Great players like Luis Suarez can come from the league but pure stats wont prove anything as most teams in the 2/3 team poor leagues are way below par compared to top leagues.
Antony top right.
Performance in CL or against decent teams in EL gives a better comparison.
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No.9 transfer is outlier, because option is so rare. Other than that, in EPL, here are some transfers already or almost done,Which other business makes you say that? Nunez was €100M, even I didn't think it'd go that high. You have to remember Haaland's contract situation when he signed if you're going to mention that.
Look at this tough guy insulting me
Do I even need to explain that I don't mean a Woodward-controlled window? Can your imagination lead you to a place where we spend decisively on the players the manager is asking for? This isn't rocket science, same approach, different decision maker.
What are you talking about?
I just don't get it, you're saying Murtough is trying to get the players the manager wants. The manager already knew who he wanted, a long time ago and yet here you are, buying what they're selling. I can see Murtough burning the midnight oil right now if I think hard enough
Chelsea won the Champions League, I don't need to say anymore.
Richardson: 60m
Bissouma: 25m
Jesus: 45m
Phillips: 45m
Sterling: 45m (rough est.)
Pre-pandemic: ziyech : 34m
now, it’s the recovery period for every club. It seems to me the transfer fee have regressed to reflect the economic situation.
Antony is under contract at Ajax until June 2025. He's currently overvalued in the market, similar to Declan Rice, as his rumored transfer fee is more in line with how much his current club values him as a need/importance.
Seems to have a lot of potential, so let him mature for another year then revisit. This will be his 3rd season in Europe/Ajax and 1st without EtH. United should stand their ground like they did with Sancho. In the meantime, we get to see Pellestri, Amad, Elanga, Sancho, and Rashford have a proper go. Should add Garnacho and Shoretire.
Seems to have a lot of potential, so let him mature for another year then revisit. This will be his 3rd season in Europe/Ajax and 1st without EtH. United should stand their ground like they did with Sancho. In the meantime, we get to see Pellestri, Amad, Elanga, Sancho, and Rashford have a proper go. Should add Garnacho and Shoretire.
So whats wrong with the formula then? Your argument seems to be limited to «because I say so». When all you got is being loud, dogmatic and refusing to believe something it is difficult to understand why you spend so much time discussing it.
As I have told you before, I like the combination of watching football and using spreadsheets/math/logic as these are all subjects of interest to me. When one disagree with a formula it is usually not difficult (at this level) to asert where/how it is flawed. This dont seen to be of interest to you. But you do seem to be happy to spend alot of time keep repeating an opinion that you fail to support with any facts or arguments. Maybe that explains your dislike for numbers and «spreadsheets»?
Personally, I prefer a consistent, unbiased «formula» based on results in several thousand games over the rambling of some guy on a forum. That is why I would rather backup my arguments with something like Elo rather than keep postulating.
In this case, the «formula» looks solid too, and so do the outcomes of the formula (Liverpool, City and Real Madrid the three best teams in the world currently).
There is a huge difference between Ajax and PSV/Feyenoord. The quality of the players is not the discussion here. You seem to mix up that alot for some reason.
I agree with standing our ground. However, I don't think are options are good enough to carry us through the season, just not enough senior players. so, I'll probably look to bring a senior player in on loan. Like an Asensio for instance.
I also think it is interesting to compare Man Utd and Ajax record in Europe under ETH and OGS. To be able to compare results I use the points system.
- Man Utd played 35 games in Europe during OGS time here. 14 in CL and 21 in Europe League. With the point system that would equal 43 points in Europe League and 19 in Champions League. In total 62 points in 35 games. A 1,77 point per game average.
- Ajax under EtH, during much of the same time period, played 40 games in Europe. 8 games in Europe League and 32 in Champions League. With the point system their results would equal 58 points in Champions League and 16 in Europe League. In total 74 points in 40 games. A 1,85 point per game average.
This approach have several weaknesses. First, they dont play against the same teams. And in this case, Man Utd played a lot more games in a weaker competition (Europe League). But I think it is hard to argue that Man Utd have not faced easier opposition than Ajax during this time period.
Consquently, I think the numbers give an indication that Ajax have been the better team during this period. Not better players. But better team.
- Man Utd played 35 games in Europe during OGS time here. 14 in CL and 21 in Europe League. With the point system that would equal 43 points in Europe League and 19 in Champions League. In total 62 points in 35 games. A 1,77 point per game average.
- Ajax under EtH, during much of the same time period, played 40 games in Europe. 8 games in Europe League and 32 in Champions League. With the point system their results would equal 58 points in Champions League and 16 in Europe League. In total 74 points in 40 games. A 1,85 point per game average.
This approach have several weaknesses. First, they dont play against the same teams. And in this case, Man Utd played a lot more games in a weaker competition (Europe League). But I think it is hard to argue that Man Utd have not faced easier opposition than Ajax during this time period.
Consquently, I think the numbers give an indication that Ajax have been the better team during this period. Not better players. But better team.
So weird to be talking about which team has been better.
The facts are, United have got rid of a manager, and an interim manager, because of the performance of the club. Then we go out and get the manager of the said club we're comparing, and targeting their players.
Would suggest to me that Ajax have performed better...even without looking at the factual figures.
The facts are, United have got rid of a manager, and an interim manager, because of the performance of the club. Then we go out and get the manager of the said club we're comparing, and targeting their players.
Would suggest to me that Ajax have performed better...even without looking at the factual figures.
I completely agree with what you're saying in that there have been many high profile transfers of players doing well in the Ere Divisie and struggling after a transfer to the PL - Kezman to Chelsea, Daavy Klassen to Everton for £24m and 0 goals etc. And £50-£70m is a heck of a lot for a player coming from a weaker league.
But flip that around and there are tons of transfers that have worked out not too bad - RVN, RVP, Erikson, Suarez, Overmars, Vermaelen etc
You also know darn well that we've made some big expensive high profile full international signings that were a complete shambles - Di Maria (£60m and 3 goals) etc.
Antony is 22, has got 9 Brazilian caps, 2 goals - he wouldn't be playing for Brazil if he couldn't handle international / champions league football, hence I think he'll be ok in the PL.
I'm on the fence on this one to be honest as I can see it going both ways, the part that is swaying me is that ETH knows him and knows his strengths - if he didn't think he could handle the PL we wouldn't be pursuing this
We have Rashford and Sancho for the wing already, Eriksen can play from the right in a Mata like manner like he did at Tottenham.
I don't see this one happening at that price.
Will Greenwood be back for this season?
What kind of answer are you expecting to such a ridiculous question?
I really hope not.
He's simply not worth that price. Move on. Ralphina is a better option. Barca can't afford him with all the other players they are getting.
Maybe the Leeds connection might stop him from coming here if we bid for him, but then again he wasn't born in Leeds so he could come. We have so many holes in the squad at t the moment hard to do in one window.
It's weird because I'm sure he could have got another contract at Ajax if he wanted to coach these guys again.
The argument was never about them performing better or not. It started initially as someone stating 5 Ajax players would be starters for Man utd which was disputed. They are a better team during the periods being evaluated but is not because they have individually better players across board than Man utd as claimed by one particular Ajax fan but rather because of the system created by a coach who made them better than the sum of their parts.
Another poster listed players like Jones, Bailly, AWB, Mc tominay the weakest members of the man utd squad to support their point in comparison with Ajax first 11 players while ignoring the majority of Utd's first 11 players. Players they listed are generally players that sit on the bench apart from Awb, whom majority conceeded that Mazaroui would be an upgrade on, while McT/ Fred regularly started ahead of Pogba/Matic last season majorly because of fitness issues but i wouldn't count Alvarez ( who performs similar role for Ajax) as an upgrade on either of them.
Worrying if United are prized out of him and don't have a viable fall back option
The thought of United going in to next season with Rashford (OBE version), Martial, Sancho and Elanga as the only senior forwards is ridiculous. Everyone knows what will happen.
The thought of United going in to next season with Rashford (OBE version), Martial, Sancho and Elanga as the only senior forwards is ridiculous. Everyone knows what will happen.
Asensio is a massive gamble, he can barely string together significant amounts of game time, outside of decent looking goal score per minutes his stats are awful. Ask why noone else is interested in him. I am not saying we should pay 70m for Antony by any means, but huge wages and a gamble for minutes played for sure with Asensio
Why anyone thinks our existing right wing options are any good I don't know.
Sancho - shite off the right wing in this league
Eriksen an absolute waste off the right wing, its like playing mata there
amad, pellistri neither have shown any signs of being good
Elanga - again not a RW of any kind, and I am not convinced of his ability any way
Rashford has an awful lot to show given the last two years of barely looking like a player
Raphinha is not coming to United, when his choices are Chelsea, barca or us, I think we can leave that one there.
And i still stand by it. Ten Hag at least agrees with me on 3 players(Antony, Timber, Martinez) and i'm sure he also tried to convince Mazraoui, because he is definitely an upgrade on AWB. But i also didn't say that Ajax was better overall, only that it's not a big step up. Seeing nearly half of the 11 players were deemed an upgrade. Sure Ajax performed better, but now Ten Hag is here that hopefully will change.
Timber doesn't, in fact its why we are chasing Martinez now instead of him and I am sure the same condition that applied to Timber that discouraged from joining would also apply to Martinez.
Because it’s common sense, and any formula will clearly have no fool-proof means of adjusting for the significant lack of quality between the two leagues.
According to this formula of yours, who are the other two teams that are better than Ajax then? The fact that as a unit they are better than United is plainly obvious. That also applies to Brighton. It applies to Wolves. It applies to my Power League team who play every Thursday and probably have excellent ‘ball progression’, ‘xG’ and all the other bollocks numbers too, and at a glance, would also be considered better than United if we didn’t consider the fact that we play a bunch of amateurs and we ourselves are a bunch of failed footballers.
If United drew Ajax in the CL last season instead of Atletico, who do you think would have been favourites?
Worse than that, the claim was 8 or 9 Ajax players would get into and improve our team. Which is absolute nonsense.
Ajax.
And it is not common sense. It is Rozay-sense. And it is wrong (to apply your method of argument).
http://clubelo.com/Ranking
They adjust for the difference in quality between the league by using the games in European competition. Over time, for all teams, this amount to a significant number of games.
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And the very reason why their coach has developed the reputation he has is not because of what he has achieved, but largely who he has achieved it with. The whole point about the celebration of ETH is what he achieved and who he achieved it with - being largely ordinary players eho over achieved above the sum of their parts. The crowning jewels of their 18/19 team are probably the best players Ajax have produced in at least a decade in De Ligt and De Jong, and even them, they having been sensational where they have gone. Below them are the likes of Ziyech, Van de Beek, Dest and Neres who have all been different shades of poor. And the consensus is that team had better players than the current one!
To say 8 or 9 of these players are better than their United counterparts is delusion. They probably have two who would start for us, and a couple who we have hope could develop into United level players over time.
No, it is common sense. As in, it would be commonly agreed that Ajax are not better than PSG, regardless of what a few nerds have calculated. It would be commonly agreed that this list is a load of nonsense, and several teams behind Ajax on that list would be favourites against them and expect to beat them.
I’ll take Atletico as one example. Ajax are celebrated because three years ago, they shocked everyone and made the CL semis. Atletico are regularly in the knockout/latter stages of the CL, regularly in the title race in Spain, and have a collection of objectively better individuals. But apparently Ajax are a better team. Or would you prefer PSG? CL finalists more recently than Ajax’ ‘remarkable’ semi final, serial domestic winners, and again - far better players than Ajax. Yet apparently Ajax are better than them?
These sheets are largely flawed. Every year there is some CIES algorithm that decides player’s market values, for example. An algorithm that is again, largely rubbish.
I respect that you dont understand it and that it frustrates you.
And I respect that if your algorithm says that Ajax are the 6th best team in the world, then they are.
Which data and models were used in the algorithms for calculating this lists because Rozay does have a solid point if they do not accurately measure the quality of most oppositions Ajax would face during a typical season.
Ajax consistently facing low quality opposition in Netherlands and those matches forming a significant base of which that list is made definitely skews the results positively for Ajax. They were a very good team and what they achieved was commendable but I would also find it hard to believe they were a better team than PSG last season and you would agree if they were to be drawn with PSG in the UCL last season , no one would be calling them favorites because they were a better team going by clubelo's list.
I can understand why he would want players he know. United are a mess, we have a shoe string budget and ETH plays a particular style of football as well. Having said that you'd expect our DOF to be able to come out with alternatives to ETH's shortlist. That doesn't seem to happen. Which really makes you wonder what sort of change this new Manchester United have brought in. We're still this slow, sluggish machine who rely heavily on their manager to make things work
But that's not good enough. 1 good wide player is terrible.
The teams they play against get rated too. So a win against a poor team gives you fewer point in the rating.
So it is not the wins against poor teams that puts then so high. It is their results against CL/EL teams for the past few years that put them this high up.
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