Stop it with the Bebe nonsense. I loathe Antony as much as the next man but he is a lot better than Bebe was for us.
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Great post.
He is too arrogant to carry water bottles, but that is his talent level.
Whatever the system Antony lacks the fundamentals to do it as this level. He's miles off.
The most damning thing for Antony was stepping up to a level of football he's dimply not good enough for.
Elanga is more productive and overall the more rounded player. Antony has 4 goals and 2 assists in over 2600 PL mins to Elanga's 7 goals and 6 asissts in over 2300
I reckon Bebe would have created a single chance for Højlund by now.
Price tag killed him.
Where United are currently…no one has 2-3 years to develop and improve themselves. With the added pressure of his huge transfer fee and his lacking ability.
I just can’t see how he turns this around.
Where United are currently…no one has 2-3 years to develop and improve themselves. With the added pressure of his huge transfer fee and his lacking ability.
I just can’t see how he turns this around.
Not to say he had a good performance last time out but Antony did put a good cross into the 6 yard box with his right foot last game. Hoijlund hesitated before making the run and didnt make the ball. Had he anticipated it its a goal because it was a great ball from an unexpected source.
We've all lamented his right foot and his end product has been dissappointing, but lets not pretend that in the last match he didnt do anything or wasnt a threat. He had 2 key passes on top of that cross, 1 shot which was also on target, a dribble and won a foul. He gave the ball away the most and reardless of his effort or any good balls he played, there were no goals or assists from him. So thats why its perfectly reasonable to want more from him.
We've all lamented his right foot and his end product has been dissappointing, but lets not pretend that in the last match he didnt do anything or wasnt a threat. He had 2 key passes on top of that cross, 1 shot which was also on target, a dribble and won a foul. He gave the ball away the most and reardless of his effort or any good balls he played, there were no goals or assists from him. So thats why its perfectly reasonable to want more from him.
How you go from assisting goals for Haller to not assist at all to Hojlund ? That's some mad 180 degrees change
We're committed to spending £26m on him next season if he remains in the squad (£10m wages + £16m amortization). So the breakeven for next summer should actually be net of that amount: £48m - £26m = £22m.
Minutes per goal/assist:
Bebe - 168,0
Obertan - 251,6
James - 258,3
Elanga - 288,0
Antony - 389,5
Do we even need to raise the question? Even ignoring the price tag he's easily one of our worst wingers ever.
It is safe to say that he won't be sold for more than that
Like you said, we're scraping the barrel
I don't remember him whipping any crosses in dangerous areas of the box. It's fecking how haWasn't by accident I named that tier of player, wasn't even trying to do Antony down. Currently he doesn’t look like a PL player. He cannot contest with PL FB's. Genuinely struggles to match for pace, power and he doesn't have the technical skills to negate that (although the manager should know to always set up to give him options nearby rather than have him isolated like he was a Sane or Dembele as it's obviously not his game) or the speed of thought to manoeuvre himself into clever positions to be elusive.
He is factually slower than any of those players, short or long and I think only Mata we've had that FB's could get back on with such ease, but his intelligence and spatial awareness meant he'd already know what he was doing with the ball before it even got to him plus his technical level was light years beyond Antony's meaning passes went to their intended targets much, much more often than not.
Do you have Chris Eagles mins per G/A? Although I think Eagles also had more to his offensive game.
Yeah, it's damn with very faint praise in here where a good game usually references his defensive contributions over offensive, like Dirk Kuyt... but Kuyt looks like the second coming of Cristiano compared to Antony offensively. Kuyt who was a laughing stock on here.It is safe to say that he won't be sold for more than that
Like you said, we're scraping the barrel
I think a type of football where he starts out nominally 20 yards higher up the pitch and is in a considerably tighter passing matrix with an overlapping FB is where he would be at his best and optimised. Used as he was in the team we bought him from...
Truth is, he's being used as a conventional winger and he simply isn't one of those, which will always show in the data aspect.
If you have a player who cannot cover huge amounts of space by himself, you're supposed to shorten the distances around him so that no longer becomes a factor. Antony is supposed to get the ball, give it, go somewhere else, receive it, give it and again move and we can barely string 5 constructive passes together let alone the kind of passing chains and off the ball movement that is his game.
We're judging an orange amongst a bunch of apples and will always be let down because he simply doesn't have the attributes to do another fruit's job (bear with me), but it's forced on him anyway.
You can't just throw aside that we've got a player for a very specific style of play out there trying to play a vertical game he has no qualities to play. It makes no sense, like buying Mata and deploying him as a flying winger.
Good post. If Rasmus barges that ball home everybody is saying the pair of them are improving, we win the game and the narrative changes. The issue with this team is we can’t seem to get more than one or two players playing good stuff at the same time. Antony still has a lot of untapped potential but it was to be expected that he would start slow given the stuff off the pitch. He finally seems to be finding some form and the confidence to try new things but now Garnacho Rashford and Rasmus are all way off it. I’m hoping now the stuff with ownership is sorted we can click on the pitch again asap.
All wingers would be better 20 yards further up the pitch. They all want to be around the pen area as opposed to rhe halfway line.
I get the analogy with Mata but the problem is he doesn't have Mata's technique either in and around the box either.
He can be in the halfway line or he can be in around the pen area, it doesn't really matter. He's not good enough in either part of the pitch.
No that's definitely not true - many a winger are the opposite of what Antony is supposed to thrive at - brilliant at ball carries and individualistic actions but dire at shorter, interconnective actions and decision making once they have to think. In fact, that's the more damning PL archetype and something the likes of Elanga or James were immediately deemed not good enough primarily for. Im fact all our very worst wingers follow that template.
Wing forwards and playmaking wide men are the ones that are supposed to thrive closer to goal in more congestion, not uour generic winger whose ability is driving into said space before letting the more intricate players take over, ridding themselves of that burden.
Point is. Antony is useless at the halfway line in an offensive capacity; generic wingers come alive at that juncture. We're playing a vertical game; the very worst type of game for Antony's attributes.
Well not to get into what wide players want(however they get there all wingers ultimately want to be in and around the pen area) but even if we played a game that perfectly suited Antony, he's still shite in and around the pen area. Nowhere near Mata in terms of technique.
We could play a connected, intricate, pass and move game but he can't weight a pass, has awful balance, as one sided as they come, poor decision making, has basically one type of finish in his locker.
Have to confess, I don't like his on pitch personality either. Does nothing for me.
Most wingers don't want to be near the box; you're referring to inverted wing forwards, who are basically strikers from wide, or at least their purer objective is too score goals even over looking to set anyone else up to. Wingers want to isolate their marker, burn them and then release a threatening pass or shot in the confusion, free of congestion and driving their final action (pass, cross shot) into the melee. I know these are semantics, but each subset has a differing remit and assessment of what constitutes a very good game, so it is important.
The bolded at least places him in the wheelhouse from which he was purchased to perform in. He would likely still fail, but you could then say he's been given the conditions that facilitate his game. At the moment we're reminded with every passing game of the player he is not, set up in a system you would ironically set up Elanga over him in every single time if you want pace, power, aggressive vertical running in transition and so forth. It makes no sense to pay marquee money for a player and then move away from the game that he made his name in. Antony doesn’t have the means to get into dangerous positions more often than not - he can't even burn 39-yr olds he has a running start on in the PL, let alone drive for tens of metres and be effective at the end of it.
In reality wingers have to ge able to contribute around the halfway line and in and around the box. That's football, you don't get to decide you're only good at one type of play and expect the opposition to let you do that.
This especially true at a big club. Our best wingers or at least the functioning one's contributed wherever they were on the pitch. Didn't matter, they gave you something.
As with Sancho, you don't get to be a 5 a side player just because it suits you.
Can he play as a number 10?
Seems to have a good first touch and works hard.
Seems to have a good first touch and works hard.
ffs NO!
Kuyt was a laughing stock because we were so good but in all honesty, he was their equivalent of Park Ji-Sung basically
It seems after not getting De Jong and not trusting the club to seek alternatives he went other players he knew for a different system. We've ended up not functioning either way.
He also looked into past United teams with others at the club and wanted to produce high attacking style that the fans can get excited by but I think he's missed it and is trying a flawed concept that doesn't produce much, even top teams don't score many from turnovers and we're left with no space to attack into and open midfield for teams to counter easily.
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I'm not sure what the point of the idealism is because of course, in an ideal world every player is a total footballer who can do everything to an optimal level. In reality, there are nominal positions and systems that optimise what you have or you buy players to suit.
Many wingers are terrible at rapid, short interplay and actively avoid the intricate stuff preferring to go it alone and even erring on trying to take on one too many player than making relatively simple give and go's or even engaging their brain enough to pick the smartest option to achieve their objectives.
If you're trying to play an interconnective, short passing system, this kind of player is ruinous and will kill attacks, but you put that same player in a transitional team that hits on breaks and counters, and those same qualities are invaluable as they'll get you miles up the pitch in the shortest amount of time whilst complety compromising a dangerous area of the pitch. That player wants to start further back with open space to run into where as many 1on1's can be created as possible.
If you've a quality short passing type of player, they'll come alive in the congestion and use it to their advantage with their guile and their better suited attributes - you want a Mata out wide in a congested game, not a Valencia as an example.
I think you've said about players we've had giving you something no matter what is besides the point; we actively pursued Antony and brought him here, and in any such circumstance, the manager and club should have a crystal clear idea of how to utilise said player and play them in the manner that suits their game. If you want an eclectic player, buy an eclectic player. Above all, don't buy players for specific styles of play and then do 180's on the way you're then going to play. If you want verticality, you buy the Mourinho or Ole type of player and stay well away from someone like Antony.
Incidentally, when Antony is moved on from here, he's probably going to end up in a Spain or Portugal and look more effective there than we've seen, partially based on the style of football and what it'll afford him. I just thought the man who brought him here would have looked out for his best interests.
You're definitely right. From our vantage point with world class players at that time, Kuyt was understandably seen as a bit (lot) of a joke.
Kuyt's exact contribution in this team, he'd be a leading light, which is a strong indictment of what we've become.
Yeah a halfway house of nothingness where we're terrible at everything and can't score to save our lives.
Remember this guy had a tiger celebration
I get your point about players having particular strengths and why not play to that strength if you're going to buy them. I agree with you. Wish we did that nore.
But that player still needs to contribute and have a decent level at the other stuff. Antony still needs to give us something halfway up the pitch even if his "strength" lies in and around the pen area.
Even more so when he's not actually that good at what he's supposed to be good at.
His career post United is a hypothetical. That can't be used to support the player.
To get the best out of Antony and Sancho we need players closer to them and then they can provide clever disguised passes to runners into or inside the box, Hojlund would be great at this.
When I saw Antony in the Dutch league he was just about holding off defenders. I could see if he comes here and is more isolated he will just be eased off or any hard work he does to get past will get blocked off in the next phase, He just doesn't have the required build or speed to make it consistent, nor does Sancho.
I think a midfield 3 with an idea to link up with the wide players and have left and right back overlap would be best. We have a lot invested, it's a lot to just cut them loose. I think the new guys coming will want to see what we can do with Antony/Sancho.
When I saw Antony in the Dutch league he was just about holding off defenders. I could see if he comes here and is more isolated he will just be eased off or any hard work he does to get past will get blocked off in the next phase, He just doesn't have the required build or speed to make it consistent, nor does Sancho.
I think a midfield 3 with an idea to link up with the wide players and have left and right back overlap would be best. We have a lot invested, it's a lot to just cut them loose. I think the new guys coming will want to see what we can do with Antony/Sancho.
Remember this guy had a tiger celebration
Probably a good thing he hasn’t scored then
He's basically been commended for trying as best he can and being astute on the defensive end - a much lesser Dirk Kuyt.
It makes no sense to me why we'd buy him, a very specific system player, and then play a very generic way, which you may as well keep Elanga for. 39-year old Thiago Silva caught up with him with connsumate ease not only from facing the wrong direction, but with Antony already running the other way. As a manager, that's the point you might probably think your man isn't cut out for such an isolated role... maybe.
Fair, but we owe him £30m worth of wages over the next 3 years. So unless he takes a paycut, that breakeven number is quite a bit higher.
Right, my simple calculation assumes we won't be subsidizing his wages and we won't be signing a replacement. So it represents a "best case scenario" more than anything else.
But there you go, any United winger has to be able to get away from an old centre back.
You can't say "ah yeah but that's not his game."
I mean you can but that winger has no place at United no matter the system.
This was such an incredibly poor deal. When you see Antony play it's hard to see anything that they were looking at and thinking here's a player to spend more than we'd ideally want. No current ability and no real potential.
All he can do is retain possession sometimes. That's it. As a winger, that's the sole skill he has. It's the skillset of a tidy 15-20 mill footballer. Plucking a figure out of thin air but the point is it's a huge miscalculation.
All he can do is retain possession sometimes. That's it. As a winger, that's the sole skill he has. It's the skillset of a tidy 15-20 mill footballer. Plucking a figure out of thin air but the point is it's a huge miscalculation.
One of the tenets of short interplay is movement beats everything. Move to be available for a pass; move to receive a pass; move to evade markers; move to force anyone tracking you to make a choice on whether to follow and abandon their position; move to negate having to match strength with strength etc. etc. so the whole point of that kind of football is it gives an entirely different perspective on how to take on and dismantle a team, where power and aggression can be used against much bigger heavier opponents by making them chase and fatigue effectively chasing shadows, if done right. So systems matter, greatly, and one type of player can be utterly useless in the wrong system that doesn’t suit their attributes whilst genial in another.
I never set out to defend Antony, and ultimately I don’t think he’s going to be good enough even under optimal conditions, but I don’t think he’s this dreadful player this vertical football makes him look like where he is good for nothing but his endeavour and being a meme people fixate on for not using his right foot.
He must be one of the worst ability for money deals I can think of.
We have overspent on a lot of dross in the last 10 years, but Antony's transfer is there at the top.
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