zaafi
New Member
23 isn’t 17. So no
Because you stop developing at 23?
23 isn’t 17. So no
Has to go down as one of the worst signings in United history. Plenty of company, but I think he clears the rest of the list.
possible given the circumstances. At least Maguire for about 18 months was quite good for how we played and had a specific specialty. Antony doesn’t have a single thing he’s really good at besides defensive actions, which is hilarious considering he’s a Brazilian winger
AWB is no recognised threat down the right flank whatsoever; by that I mean there is zero tactical plan put in place to stop him or even engage with him, in fact, tactically, teams are happy for him to have the ball because more often than not they don't expect him to do anything dangerous or threatening with it.Enlighten us all with an explanation because the output is irrelevant when it comes to how it impacts Antonys ability to be effective.
The fact AWB always looks more dangerous down the right wing than Antony is a bit worrying no?
Endrick potential = adrianoEndrick was considered a potential generational talent though. Antony was a slightly above average winger from the Dutch league.
Because you stop developing at 23?
If you can't use your right foot or weight a pass at 23 I'd say its highly unlikely you can improve those aspects much. If at all.
His vision is awful. Players can have great passing technique, but if they don't have vision they won't exploit that passing technique all that well.Plenty of players never use their weak foot, that's not the problem. The problem is when he is bad in the other aspects in addition.
Antony isn't the best passer of the ball, but he has shown he can pop up with a very well weighted pass, just needs to be more consistent with it. His assist to Dalot and recently his assist to Rashford against Lens.
Plenty of players never use their weak foot, that's not the problem. The problem is when he is bad in the other aspects in addition.
Antony isn't the best passer of the ball, but he has shown he can pop up with a very well weighted pass, just needs to be more consistent with it. His assist to Dalot and recently his assist to Rashford against Lens.
I wouldn't say he's one of the worst signings. His first season was decent, should have got more goals and assists but solidified himself as an important part of the team, the entire right side disappeared whenever he didnt play. Was he worth the amount we paid, no, but it is what it is. Everybody is playing bad. He definitely needs to step up though, although I'm not sure how he can actually do that as he simply does not have the strength and pace to beat his man, whilst not having elite dribbling to make up for it. I do however want to see him with a proper striker like Rasmus up to as so far he has had utter crap to work with up front.
Without question will be out there on his own once this experiment reaches its conclusion and he probably moves to Fenerbahce for 10 million in three years time.Has to go down as one of the worst signings in United history. Plenty of company, but I think he clears the rest of the list.
This isn't directed at you, and I'll preface this with I am not turning my nose up at him scoring that...If only he scored that chance that hit the post
Yesh, what a shit thing it is when a United player does not score, relieved slmost
This isn't directed at you, and I'll preface this with I am not turning my nose up at him scoring that...
...however, this is a huge problem with the club - this mentality right here. If he had scored that, any legitimate - and it is legitimate - criticism of his performance and the player in general would've been swept under the carpet. In the long run, this is the wrong outlook, and it's cost us for over a decade now. Ignoring a players general play in favour of stats that are used to defend a player who's clearly not good enough without the proper context is - and has been - costing us from building a top team.
This isn't directed at you, and I'll preface this with I am not turning my nose up at him scoring that...
...however, this is a huge problem with the club - this mentality right here. If he had scored that, any legitimate - and it is legitimate - criticism of his performance and the player in general would've been swept under the carpet. In the long run, this is the wrong outlook, and it's cost us for over a decade now. Ignoring a players general play in favour of stats that are used to defend a player who's clearly not good enough without the proper context is - and has been - costing us from building a top team.
See the post below for what I meant by that.
I am not saying he's not young, I am just questioning whether it's reasonable to expect him to improve on specific deficiencies that he has (no right foot and very poor passing/crossing). This isn't something that will go away easily because he plays more games. The bad decision making isn't a problem with his head, it's more Antony being aware of his limitations. He doesn't cut back to make a slow pass inside/back because he thinks this is the best thing to do, he does it because he knows he isn't going to make "that" more difficult pass/cross. There's a reason he's the least likely player to create from all our attackers.23 is relatively young for an attacker. Mahrez was playing in Ligue 2 for Le Havre at the same age.
Seen alot of this over the years. Rubbish and mediocre players suddenly get a goal or an assist after months of nothing performances, and you'll see certain people telling the world how useful they are and how they're good enough for the squad. Standards are in the mudThis isn't directed at you, and I'll preface this with I am not turning my nose up at him scoring that...
...however, this is a huge problem with the club - this mentality right here. If he had scored that, any legitimate - and it is legitimate - criticism of his performance and the player in general would've been swept under the carpet. In the long run, this is the wrong outlook, and it's cost us for over a decade now. Ignoring a players general play in favour of stats that are used to defend a player who's clearly not good enough without the proper context is - and has been - costing us from building a top team.
Its clear now he is not good enough, his ability is limited and his one footedness is embarrasing. Terrible signing and its on ETH, with his obsession for players from the Dutch league that he knows. THere are far better wingers out there. We seem to have got into another Ole situation, with the manager given free reign to hire and overrule scouts. Its not going to end well for Antony or I fear ETHHe has to do something to turn it around, his general play, dribbling, passing, crossing and shooting are quite bad, as in, not good enough for lower level leagues, let alone the level of elite teams, nothing is coming off for him, and he has to do something to fix all that, because he was truly crap vs Wolves & Spurs.
I wholeheartedly agree that it is our lack of attacking quality in the right back position that is limiting our overall attacking threat. Opponents can focus on containing Shaw's overlaps. I do not understand why the club gave up improving that position.AWB is no recognised threat down the right flank whatsoever; by that I mean there is zero tactical plan put in place to stop him or even engage with him, in fact, tactically, teams are happy for him to have the ball because more often than not they don't expect him to do anything dangerous or threatening with it.
There is no doubt he is improving in this aspect and even surprising his own teams' fanbase, but it'll take a concerted period of time being a definitive contributor on the overlap for him to be considered a genuine threat.
Contrast that with the best overlapping fullbacks out there who have to be planned for because their threat is certain and has to be dealt with as succinctly as possible before they breach a backline to the point any flash ball into the box induces panic.
It is in the pockets of space proper overlappers forge that players such as Sancho, Antony and other supposed playmaking types of winger get to exploit the panic such an overlapping threat guarantees.
Sancho had Hakimi and Antony had Mazaroui at their best to date - FB's who massively affect games offensively from the outset and are/were dead certainties to do so at the time they played with the aforementioned attackers.
You can't get a Hakimi, but you still try to find the player with as many of the attributes to be a consummate overlapper to better facilitate the game of the kind of wide men who thrive because they then have extra time on the ball and spaces to run or ghost into. Such subtleties are overlooked when there's a winger who doesn't need any support of this nature to be lethal. But this is about facilitating, and it is unquestionably something certain types of wide men are going to be incomplete without.
We don’t have the money to upgrade that position this summer. AWB is doing a decent job so far and will hold the position until such times as we think about upgrading it.I wholeheartedly agree that it is our lack of attacking quality in the right back position that is limiting our overall attacking threat. Opponents can focus on containing Shaw's overlaps. I do not understand why the club gave up improving that position.
It would also mean we could play Sancho on the right, whom we urgently must start to actually use. It would also improve the situation when Bruno is put on the right side.
We were reportedly after Leverkusen's Frimpong who would fit the bill just perfectly. The noise around that transfer has died however, instead all points to the club wanting to go forward with Dalot and Wan Bissaka.
On no other single position do we have such a lack of individual quality. Leverkusen just signed another excellent RB in Bayern's Stanisic so you have to assume getting Frimpong might still be possible.
What is certain though is that he would not be any cheaper than a month or two ago, after putting in a MOTM performance, scoring and assisting in the big game opener against Leipzig.
Frustrating.
Receive the ball in a promising position, control it badly, jostle with defender to defend the ball, finally gain control of the ball (attack has already petered out at this point), make incorrect/weak pass or shoot to the stands, hold left hand up and apologize to all players in a 360 degree turn (sometimes twice), remember to smile while doing so.
I think the plan is to prioritise key areas of the pitch and then deal with the edges, so to speak - in base terms, we’re working by what’s the worst and weakest and therefore in the quickest need of address, which isn’t illogical, but still leaves a supposed marquee signing to make do rather than optimising a game that is otherwise very lacking. I referred to the overlapping fb being Antony’s “right foot” in a previous post because that’s what Mazraoui was. Any width into right-footed crossing action came from Antony holding up play in anticipation of the FB bombing on past him for him to then have a relatively easy lay off for a subsequently easy right-footed cross or driving run to be made - nobody then complains about no right foot or expectation because the FB is providing that incessantly.I wholeheartedly agree that it is our lack of attacking quality in the right back position that is limiting our overall attacking threat. Opponents can focus on containing Shaw's overlaps. I do not understand why the club gave up improving that position.
It would also mean we could play Sancho on the right, whom we urgently must start to actually use. It would also improve the situation when Bruno is put on the right side.
We were reportedly after Leverkusen's Frimpong who would fit the bill just perfectly. The noise around that transfer has died however, instead all points to the club wanting to go forward with Dalot and Wan Bissaka.
On no other single position do we have such a lack of individual quality. Leverkusen just signed another excellent RB in Bayern's Stanisic so you have to assume getting Frimpong might still be possible.
What is certain though is that he would not be any cheaper than a month or two ago, after putting in a MOTM performance, scoring and assisting in the big game opener against Leipzig.
Frustrating.
If you're being objective, a player like this can't really be judged in absolute terms until the conditions that optimise his game are provided. What he was analysed as is in that thread was a player who had overlapping cover (something he absolutely, desperately needs and relies upon) and lots of fluid movement and options on his inside channel. In this sense, he gets to weave, bob and move his way into effective positions very easily and he really isn't bad at that, even for us. The problem is everything he had to do was attenuated at Ajax - shorter dribbling actions, shorter, easier passes, less reliance on his individualism, which is why most of his clips were very short and snazzy rather than massive runs or actions.
Essentially, the more expansive a game he is asked to play, the more he will struggle because, as we see here, he isn't fast, he isn't strong, and his dribbling is not at all effective over anything but the first 5-10 yards.
My take on the player was that we'd be striving to give him those exact same conditions rather than have him play into what we do (after all, catering to your most expensive player is logical), but that hasn't happened, so he's having to do so much more than he did at Ajax with so little tools and ability to complete those tasks. Taking an overlapper away from him, is the coveted 'right leg' some want him to have; making him pass over larger distances is asking him to be better at passing than he ever had to be at Ajax, and so on and so forth. None of it is complex, and most of this should be patently obvious in assessment. The rub is, we as a fanbase don't really care for the whys and wherefores of what is wrong, and even if his conditions are suboptimal, it is not unreasonable to think the player can adapt and tolerate until what he needs is provided. Another issue is, Antony is not of the talent and ability level where you cater to him as opposed to giving someone else a go in his position - Sancho, is the kind of talent you should cater for, imo, not Antony.
As @amolbhatia50k stated in his post, he need to try and use those on inside more than he does and become a better player in combination football; he can't beat any PL FB he is isolated with, so simply pass and move; you don't have to be a 1-on-1 maestro to be a class winger, that's a very linear interpretation of the role reserved for the prototypical "flying winger" who we've been very fortunate to have had some of the very best of all time grace our club - I think that tends to lead to a railroading when it comes to expectation; if it's not a flying winger, the tolerance lessens a great deal, I feel.
I don't wish for my post to be misconstrued; Antony has been way below the required standard and we can't be expected to twiddle our thumbs whilst the detriment to the team is evident. Not only that, we have a plethora of right-sided players who deserve a chance to make that position their own if Antony is fluffing his lines. With that said, if there is a desire to see what he can do at his best, the components to enable him have to be there, without them he's always going to be limp(er) and more incomplete than the player he was bought to be. I'll reiterate, Antony's not the player I think warrants special privileges, but at the same time, if you're going to go so far in for him (price) why didn't/haven't we worked on optimising his game instead of demanding far, far more of him than he is used to (and probably capable of)?
Learning football would probably be a better start.He better start learning Arabic
Dunno, but at Ajax he was a different player with loads of tricks and he was taking people on left right and center.(albeit the Dutch league is pretty trash when it comes to defending)How come there seems to be a litany of other wingers, not just our rivals, in the league that look better than him in every aspect? What prompted us to spend such ungodly $ on him?
Young players are supposed to grow and improve when they hone their craft, which is why purchases are also based on potential and likelihood of upward trajectory. This obviously means someone like Antony getting sharper, smarter and more decisive in thought and execution, particularly so under optimal conditions which provide no impedance to growth. Whatever we might think of Antony, those conditions for growth have not only not been met; they (here) are conditions for a serious stumbling block or crisis of identity as all the foundation for growth up until that point in his career have been ripped from underneath him. In that sense, almost the exact same thing has happened to Sancho, and it also happened to Pogba here. They all played with better players who facilitated and complemented their game, making it very clear and easy for them to remain on course with their development without impingement. Antony isn’t the special talent the other two are, but the same applies nonetheless.I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here tbh.
All the highlight reals that convinced the likes of yourself about his star quality, were just displaying how average he was. There was no standout attribute to him, that would make him a viable attacking threat for us. And they were highlight reels from Ajax - where he had the optimal conditions to succeed - but he looked about as average as a winger could be.
Going beyond that, even in the Eridivisie he gave you a mediocre return in productivity. He got 8 goals and 4 assists in his last season in the Eridivisie in 1700 minutes (a goal or an assist every 140 minutes). That's in a much weaker league than the PL and as you say with his optimal team conditions.
So we should've known exactly what we were going to get over in the PL - he was going to face more challenging defenders and a higher level of competition. And the natural toolset he had wasn't going to keep up with the level of competition he was due to face. If by some scenario we catered to his specific needs, you end up creating a team catering to the needs of a forward who (at most) gets you a goal or an assist every 140 minutes.
Young players are supposed to grow and improve when they hone their craft, which is why purchases are also based on potential and likelihood of upward trajectory. This obviously means someone like Antony getting sharper, smarter and more decisive in thought and execution, particularly so under optimal conditions which provide no impedance to growth. Whatever we might think of Antony, those conditions for growth have not only not been met; they (here) are conditions for a serious stumbling block or crisis of identity as all the foundation for growth up until that point in his career have been ripped from underneath him. In that sense, almost the exact same thing has happened to Sancho, and it also happened to Pogba here. They all played with better players who facilitated and complemented their game, making it very clear and easy for them to remain on course with their development without impingement. Antony isn’t the special talent the other two are, but the same applies nonetheless.
Your numbers don’t carry much relevance as any but the true young prodigies will have low output at the ages Antony was before absolutely exploding into life. That is as old as football and the number of truly great players that back that will dwarf the prodigies who are anomalous.
With regard to his game, that would depend upon what you thought he could improve upon or hone, but to me, it mostly comes down to intelligence and the ability to understand and manipulate. We know under these (our) conditions, Antony absolutely wilts and looks lost; what we won’t know is how he would approach the game in optimal conditions with a supposed maturer brain and understanding of his position i.e. with an equivalent Mazraoui talent flanking him and the aggression and smarts he was accustomed to at Ajax on his inside channels. Whatever I or anyone else thinks of the player, we bought him as a marquee talent and haven’t facilitated his game or provided the conditions that he was bought off the back of. You should never buy a marquee talent for those massive outlays if you’re not going to cater to their game. I don’t care who it is; you can even say the same for Maguire; once you front that kind of money, you have etched your position in stone and should support it, otherwise not buy the player.
As it stands, it’s more moot for an Antony or a Maguire because their talent doesn’t warrant changing a team or system for, but that doesn’t betray the underlying point, and whichever manager is responsible for bringing in really expensive players is responsible for their growth, development and facilitation. I’m not sure a single manager has got that right since Fergie left, and to further drive this point home, Van Persie is an example of what this refers to; the manager brought him in as a marquee talent and then made the team play to his game and strengths.
Lastly, this point about lower leagues doesn’t have much carryover - more talent come from, or make their move from lesser leagues than don’t.
This is objective posting. My personal, subjective position on the player is still that his talent is not great enough to pander to, but then I didn’t buy him for an obscene amount of money and he wouldn’t be my idea of what a marquee purchase is.