Kanchelskis was faster, had two decent feet, and could hit the ball on the run with power and accuracy. Valencia doesn't possess any of these attributes.
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Kanchelskis was faster, had two decent feet, and could hit the ball on the run with power and accuracy. Valencia doesn't possess any of these attributes.
On the face of it, yea, but I think of we do 'get rid' of Nani there will be much more to it than meets the eye.
Yeah that's true, for all we know, he might force his way out himself. It'll still be awful if it happens though.
Aye.
It's not just about being figured out. Mikel isn't fast at all, and even Cole has lost a bit of pace. Yet, Valencia had, in the second half, a golden opportunity to knock the ball 20 yards in front of him and run straight past Mikel in a clear one on one racel, but he chose not to, as if he looked at the pitch and though "what if it doesn't come off" - 10/10 he would beat Mikel in a race, but he doesn't take on him man anymore.
He still has the pace as he shows us when tracking back - he's just as fast as Bale - but going forwards he stops for a moment to think, and then it is too late.
He still has the pace as he shows us when tracking back - he's just as fast as Bale - but going forwards he stops for a moment to think, and then it is too late.
More to him, certainly, but I doubt he was faster - Valencia has serious pace in his locker. We certainly saw that last season, and he has shown it in glimpses this season - that run against Liverpool is one of the sickest runs I have seen.
I would argue only a young Giggs had truly more pace (well, Ronaldo probably too)
It's gonna be hilarious here in the summer when we sell Nani and keep Valencia.
Always thought Andrei was faster than Giggs when I watched the 2 of them back in the day.
I have to agree that I'm not sure he's faster than Valencia in full flow though.
Oh yeah "hilarious".
As I'm a geek, I've looked at this many times over, and to me, Giggs is definitely faster than Kanchelskis when they were both young and firing - I could be wrong though, but if you look at this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-zP5mnB38Y
there is no denying Giggs' speed, and we all know that no one carried the ball like he did!
Valencia's problem isn't pace, it's about decison making, for me.
Agree with you buddy he's not been figured out he's stopped doing the things he's good at like running at full backs and using his speed thats down to either down to loss of confidence, form or fitness! He'll be back, I have no doubts.
Maybe Valencia still has his pace but he's seemingly lost that initial burst of acceleration he was known for when he first came. teams haven't really changed their tactics on Valencia other than doubling up on him on a few occasions.
Teams would give him space but once he got in a 1 on 1 position, he'd knock the ball forward and his acceleration was so quick, by the time the defender adjusted to the play, Valencia would just motor right by him. Such was his strength there was little chance of knocking the ball of him too. Defenders knew what he was going to do but unless they could match his quickness, they were helpless.
To me, he's lost enough of that where he doesn't feel confident taking on the defender. Not only that but his crossing is terrible these days. They're nowhere near the intended target (if there is one).
The only thing I see with the "figured him out" argument is that teams are simply asking the right questions of him. They back up and say, "Right, can you get past me now?" What makes it strange though is when Valencia just stops and plays the ball back. He's been too slow in his decision making and the decisions he makes slows down our attacking momentum. I feel for the lad but my patience is wearing a bit thin. Never been a player I lauded but he was performing well in the past. I'm not sure if we'll see that same Valencia again.
Teams would give him space but once he got in a 1 on 1 position, he'd knock the ball forward and his acceleration was so quick, by the time the defender adjusted to the play, Valencia would just motor right by him. Such was his strength there was little chance of knocking the ball of him too. Defenders knew what he was going to do but unless they could match his quickness, they were helpless.
To me, he's lost enough of that where he doesn't feel confident taking on the defender. Not only that but his crossing is terrible these days. They're nowhere near the intended target (if there is one).
The only thing I see with the "figured him out" argument is that teams are simply asking the right questions of him. They back up and say, "Right, can you get past me now?" What makes it strange though is when Valencia just stops and plays the ball back. He's been too slow in his decision making and the decisions he makes slows down our attacking momentum. I feel for the lad but my patience is wearing a bit thin. Never been a player I lauded but he was performing well in the past. I'm not sure if we'll see that same Valencia again.
Perhaps I gave you the impression that I was attacking your personal view, by quoting your post about giving him 2 more years of sub-par performances. The fact I used "you can pontificate" instead of "we can pontificate" (the way intended) probably exacerbated this.
Now that my hangover has subsided, may I proffer :-
Whether Valencia has been "figured out" or not, is one thing.
There is certainly enough evidence to suggest that his form is not completely down to this, as when he isn't being directly influenced by the opposition, he still shows a lack of adventure and attacking threat, expected of a United winger, (or indeed of his own previous standards).
Peace out JB
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Looking at the difference between Valencia and Nani during the Chelsea game in isolation, one would never suspect that the player being talked about as heading for the exit, would be the Portuguese.
Some players are not deserving of a starting spot in our line-up, on current form. I think we have enough cover in most areas, to return to having players earn their place in the team.
Valencia has not shown that this year, and better performers have missed out at his expense.
I won't be laughing, but I wouldn't bet against you.
Firstly Nani is heading to the exit because he won't sign a new deal not anything to do with talent I'd wager he'd be atleast on parity with Valencia on wages (so not our fault more his). Secondly the reason Valencia is getting chances of SAF is because his performances since he came here from Wigan have merited it. I think he will come back to form but it's hard to watch but will be worth it when it happens. Been one of our best if not our best performer over the last couple of seasons imo.
There should be no room for sentimentality. If Valencia cannot improve his form by the end of the season, Fergie must let him go, or at least drastically limit his playing time. He always was a limited player, but in previous seasons was extremely effective and reliable. This season he's been a liability, and it's infuriating to watch.
Don't think it can be called sentimentality more of a case of he has produced this consistantly before and eventually he will again. If by next christmas time his form is the same I'd be worrying for him but to write him off after a poor season is harsh if that was the case with SAF, Anderson and Nani would have been on their bike a long time ago.
Fans want loyalty from players and yet are ready to get rid of them after one bad season. Doesn't work both ways. If he's still shit next season then yes I'd contemplate selling him but not after what would be his first poor season at the club.
I simply cannot believe how shit he's become. He doesn't even have the right foot any more. I don't see what he brings with him now. I see him trying to do something, but it's not effective anywhere. He is quite one-dimensional and always has been, but he should still be able to bring some threat down the right. Instead - I have lost count how many times his cross was shit, or he simply hit the first defender. Mind boggled.
Possibly, but the thing about Kanchelskis was he didn't stop running when confronted with a full back like Valencia does. there was none of this stop-start nonsense that Valencia does. On a flat track, with no ball, maybe Valencia would be faster, but Kan Kan could motor with the ball at his feet.
Overreactions galore. Yes, horrendous throughout the season. But everyone deserves another season to prove themselves. Especially ones like Valencia who have produced performances in the past. If it were upto you lot, we'd have gotten rid of Rooney, Carrick, Evans, Hernandez and god knows how many more
I've noticed he tries to be a bit more unpredictable by going on his left foot a lot more than he used to, rather than simply going full pelt to the byline and crossing/shooting the ball.
If I wanted to keep Carrick, Hernandez and Evans, but get rid of Rooney and Valencia, would I be lumped in with this "you lot"?
If my memory serves me correctly,Valencia has done sweet FA this year, was good for a third of last season, and half the season before.
He has produced ever decreasing performances, culminating in his worst season so far.
What is there to suggest he can turn this around, when he has been given more than enough opportunities to play his way out of it?
There has to come a time when enough is enough. To suggest people are being Knee-jerk, ignores the fact that the critcism is about his long-term malaise, not just recent weeks.
He's nowhere near the level Kanchelskis was. From 94-96, so including his time at Everton, he was one of the very best players in the country and was an out-and-out winger who scored 20 goals that season at Everton. Devastating player.
Kanchelskis scored one of the best goals of the Fergie era in that FA Cup replay against Oldham, where he ran across the box and struck a brilliant shot with his LEFT FOOT into the net.
Kanchelskis scored one of the best goals of the Fergie era in that FA Cup replay against Oldham, where he ran across the box and struck a brilliant shot with his LEFT FOOT into the net.
complete loss of confidence it seems.
Evans went through a similar thing and came back strong.
they should make him watch the season when he was beating all and sundry to show him he can do it perhaps.
I always liked Evans, and just saw him as someone who needed games to lift his level.
He has reduced that number, to a point where he can now just step in. That may be age-related.
I don't want to continue flogging him, but that is not the case with Valencia.
If it is confidence, then give him some time in the reserves, tearing up lesser opponents.
A season is a long time to search for his confidence.
He has reduced that number, to a point where he can now just step in. That may be age-related.
I don't want to continue flogging him, but that is not the case with Valencia.
If it is confidence, then give him some time in the reserves, tearing up lesser opponents.
A season is a long time to search for his confidence.
Clearly we need wholesale changes. Based on Sunday's performance I'd be tempted to get shot of Valencia, Cleverley and Rooney. The poor 45 minutes Rafael put in after half time has to mean he is skating on thin ice too. I know Anderson didn't play, but he looked pretty fat and jolly sitting on the bench, like a black santa, and we can't be having any of that. So get rid too. After Phelan's tactical masterstroke against Real (leaving out Rooney), we made the mistake of letting Fergie pick the team against Chelsea. Unsurprisingly, his favourite, rotund boy wonder had another shocker. And let's not forget this is the man who brought us RVP, a so called forward who hasn't scored in 4 games and missed a sitter against Real. Send him out pasture too I say. Don't even get me started on De Gea and Nani..... Nani's just a piss poor Michael Jackson lookalike who won't even sign a new contract with us, and De Gea is more scared of crosses than a vampire. When future WPOTY types like Pogba are leaving us, it really is a sign that this club is in decline.
When my mate suggested I was being reactionary, I punched him in the face and explained everyone at Rawk thought I was spot on.
When my mate suggested I was being reactionary, I punched him in the face and explained everyone at Rawk thought I was spot on.
I think that is the problem, in relation to Valencia no one is being reactionary as he has played like this for many months with seemingly no light at the end of the tunnel
I dont think he was ever as good as some of his previous performances suggested. Nor is he as bad as his current performances suggest.
The fact is, he is a decent winger we signed from Wigan. He has pace, a good work rate and a good cross, but little else.
For a player playing for a top team, his one-footedness borders on the ridiculous. His shooting is poor (that doesnt mean he will never score, before people grab the Blackburn goal as irrefutable evidence), his dribbling is poor (he just uses his pace to knock the ball past his opponent), his passing is thoroughly average.
He has never been a player who can create something from nothing, nor has he been a technically sound playmaker like a Mata or Silva. He is a workhorse with a good cross and good physical attributes. Unfortunately he has always been a very limited player and I think it was only ever a matter of time until that started to show him up at a club like this.
Realistically I would prefer someone like Cleverley on the wing at the moment, who will also put a defensive shift in, and can pass the ball and link up with teammates very well. Nani, Young, Welbeck, Kagawa and Rooney should all be preferable at the moment.
I actually think Valencia would do us better at RB than on the wing currently.
The fact is, he is a decent winger we signed from Wigan. He has pace, a good work rate and a good cross, but little else.
For a player playing for a top team, his one-footedness borders on the ridiculous. His shooting is poor (that doesnt mean he will never score, before people grab the Blackburn goal as irrefutable evidence), his dribbling is poor (he just uses his pace to knock the ball past his opponent), his passing is thoroughly average.
He has never been a player who can create something from nothing, nor has he been a technically sound playmaker like a Mata or Silva. He is a workhorse with a good cross and good physical attributes. Unfortunately he has always been a very limited player and I think it was only ever a matter of time until that started to show him up at a club like this.
Realistically I would prefer someone like Cleverley on the wing at the moment, who will also put a defensive shift in, and can pass the ball and link up with teammates very well. Nani, Young, Welbeck, Kagawa and Rooney should all be preferable at the moment.
I actually think Valencia would do us better at RB than on the wing currently.
Yes because Valencia's first bad game was on Sunday.
Seeing all these comments in this thread recently, does anyone think Fergie and Phelan feel the same way...I mean do they see and think the same thing about him...
He is just having a bad season. I doubt its permanent
He'll play like a winger, anyway and propably won't like this idea, too much but his physicality could help him a lot, in this role.
With Zaha, joining and rumours about James and other wingers, who knows... Maybe then, Jones would play more as CB, too.
so why continue to play him? Especially for what is going to be a crucial last ten games or so.
Valencia is playing very badly and lost his confidence don't quite know exactly when it started but he has stopped taking his man on.
Valencia is the most one dimensional of our wingers young and nani can go either way and play either side.
It wouldn't surprise me if nani and Valencia were both shipped out in the summer nani has yet to get a new contract offer and Valencia is woeful.
Valencia is the most one dimensional of our wingers young and nani can go either way and play either side.
It wouldn't surprise me if nani and Valencia were both shipped out in the summer nani has yet to get a new contract offer and Valencia is woeful.
This is what I don't get. At some stage you've got to realise that it's not happening for him this season. It's not like we haven't got other options, like Young. Valencia's seriously cramping our style. He should be last choice for the moment, only used when we have no other options.
It's a good thing that our team can afford one or two off-form players in the team. I'd say, let's give Valencia enough games, see how he's doing till the end of season, and evaluate whether the bad form is perennial or intermittent.
He might trough an early midlife crisis, e.g. questioning the meaning of his life, and if God exist, and such. Happened to lots of people.
He might trough an early midlife crisis, e.g. questioning the meaning of his life, and if God exist, and such. Happened to lots of people.
He may be out with Zaha coming in the summer. Nani perfers to play on the right anyways.
oh wait..where do we fit Ronaldo then?
oh wait..where do we fit Ronaldo then?
Fergie will have a good headache selecting between the two.
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