As I said above, he's a strange man is Lawman. All I said was that coaches seemed to have worked out how to stifle Valencia, I don't think there's even anything in the slightest bit controversial about that
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As I said above, he's a strange man is Lawman. All I said was that coaches seemed to have worked out how to stifle Valencia, I don't think there's even anything in the slightest bit controversial about that
I didn't switch anything, my original statement was "teams have worked out how to stop him", not defenders.
I think there is an obvious change in stopping us getting the ball out to Valencia early and in space. It's not so strange to think that managers are scouting us and seeing how well other teams are stopping our right winger, in fact, that just just like good working practice.
I don't actually think it's that hard either, you stop Valencia getting ball in space and he's fecked more often than not.
Anders.
Valencia has taken as big a U turn as Hernandez has this season, just in opposite directions.
I agree with that to a part of the 'knowing what he can do is one thing, stopping it is another', except Valencia isn't Ronaldo and never was. Ashley Cole is a top full back, who did on a few games perform poorly, that's very different to not being able to 'figure him out', which I would also like to explain.
By 'figure him out', they have realised he does a limited number of things and the probability of his predictability has risen substantially, he is bound to try and knock it past you, and now that they have the few seasons behind them and are aware of this, I don't beleive he is having as much as joy.
They HAVE figured him out, hopefully, he will b able to take his game up a notch, whether it be through learning a new trick, coming inside more or working on his crossing. Being out of form certainly doesn't help, but if in 2 years, he still hasn't recaptured that 'form', I think we can safely say that 'form' isn't the problem.
Well it's hard to see his actual pace nowadays as he doesn't even try to run past a defender..
At least he's consistent.
This seems rather generous.
You can pontificate all you want about managers/defenders "figuring him out."
The evidence suggests otherwise.
No amount of tactical adjustment stops him running into wide-open spaces that are sometimes presented to him, yet he will still stop the ball, and look around, wait for the defence to get organised, and then abdicate responsibility to a teammate.
Obviously the problem is with valencia as opposed to every premier league fullback figuring him out, how else could we explain the fact that when he does by some miracle find space, he can't seem to pick out anyone with his crosses to save his life... I hope a proper break would get him mentally back in it.
Does anyone think we have ourselves to blame for all this? We have constantly used him as a full back, or defensive winger, and now his attacking game has gone to complete shit.
Was he much better before we started to interfere? I would say yes.
Was he much better before we started to interfere? I would say yes.
We played him as a full back in the early parts of last season and he had no problems after Nani got injured and he started playing on the wing again, so no, I doubt that has anything to do with it.
Fair points, I just find it very strange. People talk about his injury but he came back from that brilliantly.
He doesn't even look like a winger anymore to me. He actually looks like he is playing out of position.
He looks like his best position is on the bench. He just can't play football anymore.
Yeah I agree. He is going to play though now Nani is injured.
I think we should start with Young, Kagawa or even Welbeck out of position rather than Valencia at the moment
Me too, it's not worth it anymore, he's actually harmful to our performance as a team now.
Young wasn't bad on the right when he played there as I recall.
Young wasn't bad on the right when he played there as I recall.
I'm interested to hear this, what evidence?
For as much shit as Young gets on here I actually quite like him. He is two footed, quick, can deliver a ball and offers a goal threat.
Obviously Nani shouldn't (fingers crossed) miss too much game time with the international break, but even when he is back I would persist with Young and Nani for a bit as we have continued to try and play Valencia into form for months now with little to no effect.
should we really have let Zaha go back on loan? 
Yes
should we really have let Zaha go back on loan?
You may laugh but I think having an unknown quantity with a point to prove will give the team a big boost. Let's be honest, when he arrives here he couldn't have picked a better time to come and shine.
The evidence points to players now showing him the inside as often as possible doesn't it?
I have absolutely nothing against Valencia as a person. But I have never warmed to him in his entire PL career, at Wigan or United.
Even when he was getting a lot of praise and in his hot streak, which I was delighted about, I always felt it was a little over the top. For me, he is a player that has always had something missing.
I did feel a little sick when he was given the #7. A number worn by the likes of Robson, Cantona, Best, Beckham, Ronaldo. Even Owen was a World-Class player at one point.
It may sound silly but I think the number is putting too much pressure on Valencia. He seems over-awed when he speaks about it, and I think he is putting too much pressure on himself.
Even when he was getting a lot of praise and in his hot streak, which I was delighted about, I always felt it was a little over the top. For me, he is a player that has always had something missing.
I did feel a little sick when he was given the #7. A number worn by the likes of Robson, Cantona, Best, Beckham, Ronaldo. Even Owen was a World-Class player at one point.
It may sound silly but I think the number is putting too much pressure on Valencia. He seems over-awed when he speaks about it, and I think he is putting too much pressure on himself.
The evidence of one's own eyes, which was then outlined in the very next paragraph of my post. Or did you not get that far?
Has there ever been a player who has been this badly out of form for an entire season and come back the next season to make amends?
He is going down the Torres route at this rate.
He is going down the Torres route at this rate.
I can't believe you think this, along with giving him less space, is why he's been so bad all season. That somehow every single team we've played has instituted this apparently flawless plan to stop Valencia. I generally find myself agreeing with what you have to say but I think you're completely off on this one.
Bit of a weird thing to say I know but he barely even looks like a pro footballer does he? Iv seen players going through terrible spells but at the moment he looks like he's never kicked a ball in his life. When he stops dead and starts spinning in circles its one of the most bizarre things iv seen from a player, he needs to get himself sorted and fast. With Welbeck, Nani and soon to be Zaha all capable of playing on the right wing he might just find himself on his way out of the club.
Fair enough but I don't just think Valencia has turned shit over night. He's been worked out for me. I'd love to be wrong on this one though.
It was a joke
True, but he doesn't arrive for a few months yet, a lot could change between now and then, you are also forgetting that we welcome back a certain Mr Bebe...
Yes, quite right, the evidence SHOWS they have figured him out, they know he will try to go down the flank, so they show to him to the inside, where his single footed ability is highlighted more on the right wing.
Ha, no I didn't clearly I struggle to read shit. What do you not understand? You said:
Same question, how does the evidence suggest that they haven't figured him out? as I never claimed his great ability was to 'run into open spaces', but his speed he uses to beat the last man, to get that extra bit of distance on the wing back to put his cross in, he doesn't seem to be able to go past his man or get that space, and previously I think they were worried Valencia would turn in hence showed him down the flank.... whereas now, they know he is going down the flank or a little pass, as him cutting on from the right would require a left foot preferably.
But is it not ridiculous that it's taken a good part of 3 years for defenders to work out Valencia with all the technology available? Coaches, full backs, fans, commentators and pretty much every one who has ever watched Valencia always knew he was a limited player but that never stopped him from consistently raping PL full backs. Which is why I find it weird when people say "He's been figured out". Why would it take 3 years to figure him out when all that was needed was to show him the inside?
So for me has not been figured out, he's just been complete and utter shite but hopefully he can regain some of his form back and not be a liability
Could it not be a combination of his exceptionally one dimensional game being to some degree figured out, which has substantially reduced the frequency in which he can beat the man, causing him to lose confidence, making things even worse?
If you do something 10 times and it works 8 times, you are likely to rinse and repeat, with confidence that it will work. If you try something 10 times and it works once or twice, you are likely to hesitate when trying it, exasperating the problem. This could be the reason he just turns on the spot and passes it back to Rafael.
In this scenario not "every single coach/defender" will have figured him out, but even if only a large minority have, he'll almost psyche himself out against the ones who haven't. For what it's worth I've always thought it perplexing that with his skill set he can be a United player. Even when he was at his absolute best I had no idea why the defender didn't just show him onto his left foot.
If you do something 10 times and it works 8 times, you are likely to rinse and repeat, with confidence that it will work. If you try something 10 times and it works once or twice, you are likely to hesitate when trying it, exasperating the problem. This could be the reason he just turns on the spot and passes it back to Rafael.
In this scenario not "every single coach/defender" will have figured him out, but even if only a large minority have, he'll almost psyche himself out against the ones who haven't. For what it's worth I've always thought it perplexing that with his skill set he can be a United player. Even when he was at his absolute best I had no idea why the defender didn't just show him onto his left foot.
I'm certainly not in agreement that Valencia has been brilliant for 3 years.
You really are tiresome.
I state that regardless of whether you think that he has been figured out, there are occasions when he has acres of space to run into, but still chooses not to.
With noone to show him inside or outside, but him still doing nothing, shows that you can discuss it all you want, but the problem is with the player, not how the opposition deals with him.
Simple enough for you?
For me, he should be sold. Never seen a professional footballer before be so afraid of using his left leg. United #7, you're having a laugh
It is absolutely astonishing how one footed he is. How can a player at one of the worlds biggest clubs be like that, seriously, it's just an absolute disgrace. As has been pointed out, if you have to swivel 270 degrees on the ball with your right foot instead of using your left then something is seriously wrong.
I think that is right.
Also, he seems to have become pants at crossing the ball, even when he has time. But he used to be able to put decent crosses in. This change is not explained by anything the opposition are doing.
I'm not quite sure if you're being purposely dim or it just fits your profile as luckily I don't know you, but if you would pull your head out of your arse and actually read what I have written, not to what you think I have.
I fully understand what your saying and appreciate that yes, there is a problem with the player also (But you will see in my original post, I pointed out that even when off on form this applies), however, the fact he has space to run into etc isn't proof that teams haven't figured out how to deal with him, I'm not explaining this very well either, that's not sarcastic, but I will try to now...
J - I think teams have figured out Valencia
V - Proof suggests otherwise
J - How so?
V - As he is allowed open space to run into, he simply makes the wrong decision
J - Correct, meaning there is a problem with the player, but how does that go against proving that team's havent figured him out? It has nothing to do with my point, you may well try letting me know what Valencia did on Tuesday night, but it has no bearing or impact on this discussion.
Yes, there are BIG decision problems with the player, but I don't think its made easier by the fact that IMO, teams have sussed him out (Combined with the fact his decision making/ form is poor) leads to a poor showing from Valencia, however to say, when he gets space his decision making is poor ERGO other team's havent figured him out because its all his problem...
I have tried to make this as simple as possible for you, so you don't receive another 'tiresome' reply.
You are both right you pair of bellends
Maybe but for 3 years full backs have struggled to stop him despite knowing his limitations. Never has he struggled so much to even beat his man as he has been struggling this season and if you're telling me it's taken 3 years for defenders, with all the video analysis available to them to deal with him then I find that hard to believe.
I feel his time has come to leave the building.
Not sure about that, but one thing I'd say is that if (with the arrival of Zaha) we get rid of Nani and keep Valencia, it'll be an awful decision by the club.
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