Antoine Griezmann
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I think everyone is just wary after most of our massive signings till pogba have been underwhelming. If Jose has space in his team for Griezmann it'll work. I trust the manager again.
We play a lot of games over a season, especially if we are back in the Champions League and competing for all competitions, Rashford and Martial will both get plenty of game time. Also, who's to say Martial's best position is up front? His best attributes are his dribbling, pace and his link-up play, both of which are better utilised out wide. Seems Jose sees him as an inside foward too, as he has played there for us this season.
Secondly, just because we buy Griezmann doesn't mean the club will neglect strengthening other areas that they may see fit. Signing Pogba didn't stop us signing Mkhitryan and Bailly last window, for example.
No, that's revisionism. France tried a number of things trying to get the balance right. Shifting Pogba (Romania); dropping both of them (Albania); playing him in his correct position with Griezmann ahead of him (Switzerland); Switching Pogba to his proper position at half time (Ireland) and on it went.
I watched the French games intently as I hoped we signed Kanté whilst also being curious as to how Pogba and Griezmann would perform.
Griezmann and Pogba have been playing in the same side since 2014. To have so few combined games of note in all that time has to be an issue irrespective of the others in the side. Even Maradona's Argentina got it right once or twice before it fell apart.
France have their own problems, I'll grant you that, but these two getting in each others' way is another added to the mix. Griezmann has shown he can thrive in slow games with slow team-mates at club level. His intelligence and opportunism enables him to use others as decoys, but it is within that that he needs complete freedom to make the runs he wants without impedance and that's where the problems between these two have always been, so much so that one of the measures Deschamps tried was keeping Pogba back in deep midfield in the hope his long-range passing would find a then-free Griezmann in the space he'd have invariably foraged for himself. All it ended up doing was stifling Pogba because it shoe-horned his game and took away his impulsiveness and marauding runs. It also killed his one-touch passing build-ups, which are practically hallmarks of his game.
The other idea Deschamps had was to put Griezmann left-wing forward and have Pogba play on the right side of a 3-man midfield ostensibly to keep them as far apart from each other and to theoretically both then be able to play something like their natural game. It doesn't work, or should I say, it hasn't worked.
Deschamps being blamed for an intrinsic problem in the way the both of them play their natural, uninhibited game, is a stretch when he's tried so many different things to accommodate the two of them.
That's a generic cliché that doesn't address the point that this particular pairing are not masked in the same wonder and unknown element as other big players coming into a new side. We have a body of work readily available for examination and it is that which provides more doubt than if these two had never played on a pitch as team-mates before.
As I said, this is £169m+ effectively being gambled in a high stakes game here. Transfer fees at the lower end of the market do precipitate the players dropability and likelihood of being a supplemental/rotational component used to assist the stars of the team, but at this kind of combined fee, if you're dropping the players, carting them about because an experiment has failed, or are not getting the absolute best out of both of them, you've spent really badly and that has to be a concern with this potential signing until proven otherwise.
Neymar has always played some variant of the left-sided position ever since he played for Santos. Messi has had stellar seasons in both positions and has pros and cons to either role. His physical decline and the amount of knocks he gets in the middle of the park in that role are also fair factors to consider. Neither player has been compromised because of Saurez. Neymar was on fire when he had no off-the-field issues to deal with. His game has dwindled somewhat since then, not because he's on the left. What compromises do you think either one of them has made? Messi is clearly the boss; he does what he wants when he wants and the others defer; he's clearly going to end up as a playmaker once his acceleration deserts him and he actually enjoys playing either of them in on goal. His goal tally is still high, but his assist tally must surely have shot through the roof.
Point is, there's logic to those three, which is why they work so seamlessly in full flow. Being as incredibly multi-functional as they are also helps, but they don't intrinsically impede one another.
Yes that might happen, but Griezmann has shot to complete prominence as a SS with free rein to do what he wants when he wants. Putting him back on the wing simply begs the question of why. You pay so much, you buy 'as is' and don't mess with it, surely? For £80m+, if this is the line of thinking, you can buy a quality LWF and put a fair chunk of change towards another position or cover wages.
Because Griezmann is not that type of player where others are running off him. His runs are for him and they usually complete a play, be it by him shooting, or trying to deliver a final ball. If you want a traditional style in that role with an all-encompassing forward then you can take that same £80m and plonk it on Juve's desk or go for other forwards who thrive in that style.
But forgive my crudeness here: Herrara was not bought as a ready-made superstar player with universal agreement he is one of the best in the world. Pogba, Zlatan Mhikitaryan were, and they've been played as they should be - in their positions of repute, and they've delivered. Martial is different because his age and the fact he himself is still finding his feet makes him pliable. We don't even know whether he'll become a striker or remain a wide-man, such is his rawness. Griezmann is a superstar who has already carved out a particular style with particular idiosyncracies we'd be doing him a disservice to ignore. If he's bought and not played in the role he has made his name in, and then so happens to fail, that is all on the club and manager, just as it would be with any established superstar.
Having said all that, I don't have a clue if Griezmann has it in him to re-model his game and become some elite striker or maintain his standards if put back on a wing, I just think if you go into a dealership and buy an amazing sports car, you can't then complain if it does a bad job of being a family vehicle.
Honestly I'd rather spunk the money on Verratti, I'd rather not compromise the current system unless he's taking Zlatans spot.
I don't want this kind of negativity around me!So I don't want Griezmann
True. It's been proven time and again that players get even better when they have quality all around them.
Good post @Fortitude. It is mystifying to buy someone who has recently been proven to not play well with Pogba. And for those with blind faith that Mourinho will know how to utilise them both best, unlike Deschamps, I would point out that a big reason we are in 6th is that it took so long to find a system that worked for Pogba when his initial idea was a 4-2-3-1 with Pogba partnering Fellaini. And if that doesn't make you think twice about the idea things will magically work out, and fast enough to not end up in 6th again, then I don't know what will.
Absolutely has to be our #1 target in the summer.
Where do you see us playing him? For me, he isn't worth the fees we'll have to pay if we play him out wide. If we play him centrally, we're back to playing pogba deep in a middle 2 which isn't where he excels. The other option is if we play him in place of Ibra which a) won't happen next season and b) will require a very big change in how Jose likes his CF.
Must say, as much as I think he's a superb player, I don't think the move makes sense for us.
The role Martial played against Boro. Inside channels, playing off Ibra.
The French national team isn't enough of a barameter to not sign somebody. They regularly have class players look poor as Deschamp is tactically inept.
If we did sign Griezmann he could play any of the front 3/4 positions to a high level.
People on this forum are so burnt by Di Maria that they just don't want to sign any class players anymore, really strange.
French people generally settle well into England, he's good friends with Pogba and speaks Spanish too so will fit into the rest of the squad well.
We know he and his brother love's united, he was a fan of Beckham. It's exactly the sort of the signing the club will want to make.
If we did sign Griezmann he could play any of the front 3/4 positions to a high level.
People on this forum are so burnt by Di Maria that they just don't want to sign any class players anymore, really strange.
French people generally settle well into England, he's good friends with Pogba and speaks Spanish too so will fit into the rest of the squad well.
We know he and his brother love's united, he was a fan of Beckham. It's exactly the sort of the signing the club will want to make.
Does singing Griezmann not signal the end of Rooney's United Career? Surely he'd play in the hole behind Zlatan and run in behind him for knock downs etc.
Well Rooney pretty much plays as a left forward when he plays now doesn't he? With the midfield turned into a more traditional '3' and with Pogba the most advanced.
I'd be surprised if Rooney was still here come September. I think it'll start to become obvious he's off in April/May time. And if we pull off a stormer and sign Griezmann, I could see Either Zlatan leaving or a deminished role for Martial
Since when has a Mourinho team ever not had a big man up top? It's his most important position.
Ultimately, Pogba is the better player of them two, so if he has to be sacrificed we should look somewhere else, no matter how good Griezmann might be (I'm not really convinced he's THAT good anyway).
But its also been proven that unbalanced teams filled with quality players don't always achieve moreso in this league. Why not sign a top class CB, a 6, box to box cm for cover and another wide forward for depth? The players we actually need and let Zlatan, Martial, Rashford, Mkhitaryen, Mata and the new signing fashion out a forward line? Because as things stand we do have a capable frontline in Martial, Ibra and Mkhi but do we really have enough industry in midfield to revert to a midfield two whose half is Pogba? And should we lose the creativity that Pogba brings when he is free to roam. The uncertainties are too many with this signing to justify pushing the boat out, imo.
I keep seeing this being said and I can't understand how someone can be so dense. We will sign more than one player!!
Rooney's end is already here. He's far from a key player anymore, doesn't even make our best 11 these days. If he hopefully beats the scoring record this year I imagine he will go back to Everton or abroad this summer.
Are you convinced about Herrera?
Maybe they think £80m on one player means there won't be enough to spend on other top class recruits.
We buy Ousmane Dembélé in a few years from Dortmund and have a attacking French 3 of Griezmann-Martial-Dembélé with Pogba behind them. Viva la France!
Obviously spending 80m on one player affects the money available for other recruits. We are not backed by some kleptocratic middle eastern dictatorship, in case you haven't noticed, we operate on a budget!
Herrera is not the team's main creative force Pogba is and will be the one most affected by this signing. Herrera will be relegated to squad player but with that we lose the vital work rate that affords Pogba the freedom to do his thing.
That's been proved to be wrong time and again as well. If Mourinho is going to be here for the long run, I definitely want him to splurge big on top quality. It's been said that Matuidi was the alternate to Pogba, for example. Nobody is complaining now about Pogba's cost, are they.
I do agree about not shoehorning people in, just for the sake of it. But the money argument is not convincing
As much as i'd love to sign him, Pogba has played his best football in the #10 spot this season. If he did arrive does that mean Pogba back to CDM?
Or assuming he was signed in the morning (which he obviously wont be) could we go with
DDG
back 4
Carrick Herrera
Pogba
Griezman Zlatan Mkhitaryan ?
God that front 4
Or assuming he was signed in the morning (which he obviously wont be) could we go with
DDG
back 4
Carrick Herrera
Pogba
Griezman Zlatan Mkhitaryan ?
God that front 4
Really, once you get over the tedious groupthink on here that says that Pogba can only play in a three-man midfield, and realize that actually, all he needs in a 2 is his midfield partner being a holding passer rather than Marouane fecking Fellaini then it becomes easy to see how Griezmann would work.
I want to see Mourinho spend big on quality but perhaps another player would be better. What if Verratti was available for £80m? What if those people think two midfielders are necessary and the cost would be near £100m? It wouldn't be possible to have both those things and at the same time buy Griezmann.
We buy Ousmane Dembélé in a few years from Dortmund and have a attacking French 3 of Griezmann-Martial-Dembélé with Pogba behind them. Vive la France!
We are not spanish!
Griezmann and Pogba will still naturally end up in the same area and impede each other.
The team will be built around Griezmann and Pogba, I have no doubt he'll be a fantastic signing, and Jose knows exactly what he's doing. He wanted them both at Chelsea, he's clearly been plotting having them in the same team for years.
You mean like buying Pogba stopped us from signing other top class recruits? The same nonsense was said about him.
Ibra came on a free and Mkhitaryan only had only one year left on his contract. Suppose there are people who want to buy a top CB, a top DM and a back-up CM: how much do you think that would run us? £40m, £60m, £40m? That totals £140m. I don't think there's enough to buy Griezmann then.
We needed Pogba because we lacked a world class outfield player to lead us to a new dawn and if the players were compatible I wouldn't have a problem with this signing. Looking at Pogba I see a Gerard/Lampard/Yaya type who though different types had more or less the same impact further up the pitch but lacked the discipline and dedication to be top class in a deeper role. By signing Griezmann we are going to shoehorn one of the two but currently Pogba is doing very well and has been unlucky in front of goal himself and seen poor finishing cost him some assists. We are onto a good thing why ruin it?
The financial argument is as convincing as the technical one imo because we already have a player performing well in the role he'd come in to play so its better we push the boat out for that top class controlling CM, for that elusive WC CB and for that explosive wideman that helps us bring the best out of Pogba and Zlatan. Unless of course if you believe that we have the capacity to sign one 80m pound player plus two or three for 50m each. I don't, if we make Griezmann the marquee signing for the summer we are going to fill out the rest of that summer's recruitment with players in 25m to 30m range.
It has nothing to do with Di Maria and all to do with ripping up the perfect balance that we have right now in the team.
Why not improve on a template that is proving to Work?
You have Mkhi thriving without a #10 getting in his way when drifting inside. You have Zlatan dropping deep helping out with the build-up, without a #10 getting in his way. You have Pogba playing with freedom knowing that 2 players are there in the midfield to share the defensive duties.
I could go on, but you get the point. Our players are more suited to this structure.
Griezmann is no great dribbler or individualist, he thrives on quick inter-play and his own movement, that's why he perform at his best in the middle with lots of passing options, but becomes a much lesser threat when isolated out on the wings. Buying him to play in a front three wouldn't be worth it imo.
In the end, i doubt anyone would cry if we got Griezmann, but the concern with him fitting in is fair and justified.
Zlatan won't be here forever, maybe Jose wants another option to rotate with? he could happily play number 9.
Perhaps Jose wants to play a 4-4-2 with 2 experienced strikers?
The point was that I really rate Herrera. Maybe you dont see the talent Griezmann has. He could very well be a good match for us.
Pogba has the potential to become the best player in the world and Martial the best striker in the world. But with Griezmann and the problems he's going to bring, I'm afraid that it will never happen.
So I don't want Griezmann
Didn't stop Messi, Iniesta and Xavi from thriving didn't it? It's the era of superteams now.
That nonsense again...
If he really wants to come, it would be a shame to pass on him. There are all the problems with where he'd fit in, but he's too good of a player not to be able to adapt to what Mourinho wants. Although Mata is lovely, having a massive upgrade wouldn't hurt.
If we play against parked buses, he could be playing in Herrera's role with a good defensive player behind himself and Pogba. In big games he could be a Mata kind of right winger, cutting in to combine with Zlatan using Valencia as a decoy, with Herrera cleaning up behind.
Semedo, Weigl, Bakayoko and Griezmann in the Summer window would be the stuff of dreams. If they'd integrate like Mourinho's first signings have, who's to say we couldn't challenge at the highest stage if we do get there? Really hope Zlatan can sign off his career with finally getting his CL medal.
If we play against parked buses, he could be playing in Herrera's role with a good defensive player behind himself and Pogba. In big games he could be a Mata kind of right winger, cutting in to combine with Zlatan using Valencia as a decoy, with Herrera cleaning up behind.
Semedo, Weigl, Bakayoko and Griezmann in the Summer window would be the stuff of dreams. If they'd integrate like Mourinho's first signings have, who's to say we couldn't challenge at the highest stage if we do get there? Really hope Zlatan can sign off his career with finally getting his CL medal.
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