Fair point, though that opens up the othe rproblem of Pogba playing in a midfield two defensively.
Antoine Griezmann
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Fair point, though that opens up the othe rproblem of Pogba playing in a midfield two defensively.
Fair point on Miki. When has Mourinho ever played a number 10 in his career, think that isnt the case at all with Mata, more Mourinhos system and that before Mourinho players liek Rooney were favoured anyway. I like Mata but he was for me at least another example of a quality player we shouldnt have signed. Just my opinions.
Totally disagree on Martial/Rashford. They both started off there careers really well for us AS strikers. They have both to different degrees struggled this season out wide.Seems like partly off field reasons and second season syndrome but mainly as they have been shoe horned there because of the arrival or Ibrahimovic, nothing to do with there development. He gets injured, they have both played up front since, both scored and both had there best form this season playing there. These are two big talents, two of the best young strikers in Europe. I totally am for playing players in there best positions, look at Rojo for example, a piss poor player at left back, done a good job at centre back. I think we have made errors the last few seasons playing good players in positions they dont excel Rojo, Blind, Mensah, Rooney, Mata, Martial, Rashford, DiMaria just to name a few.
Jose has had Deco, Ozil, Oscar and Sneijder who have all played the "#10" role (though I prefer to call them as creative CAM). I do not like the use of #10 as it simply lumps a large group of players together. Rooney, Mata, Mkhi, Lingard are all different types of players but see all will be lumped under #10. To me it is more accurate to discuss player in terms of not only positioning but also role and skills e.g. Ozil vs Griezmann in same position will provide different outcomes.
To me, as LWF they are still strikers, as are any of the other forwards (CF, SS, LWF and RWF). When you are are the tip of the attack, you not only bear the responsibility and pressure of being the primary goal scorer, but you are also the target of a lot of physical abuse and cheap shots by opposing defenders. Also you will often have to receive the ball with you back to goal which does not suit a young player whose best asset is his pace. None of this is suitable to developing young strikers. On the other hand, playing wide allows them to receive the ball facing the defence more often, which allows them to utilize their skills effectively. It does not stop them from getting into the box or even swapping with the CF on occasion. As they develop and mature, they would develop the size and skill to truly play upfront alone. Putting them in that situation right now will do more ham than good. A lot of current strikers (Aguero, Pipita, etc) started their careers out wide or as an SS and are now CFs at their prime.
For this team so far it's one season. New manager.
True. We don't need every one to score in the big games. We need some who can slaughter the lower placed teams and some others that step up in the bigger ones.
Currwnt way of playing is quite defensive. For me I'd say it's more defensive than LVG. If the like of Shaw and especially Valencia could get to the byline and be more aggressive at that it would create more space and opertunities. Allowing the likes of Martial, Rashford, Mkhitaryan to have more support and freedom. Obviously they have to do their part but I hate Jose's way of giving them very little support and just expecting wide forwards to be so defensive but then be able to beat 3 people to get a shot off.
We have the basis there for a swift counter attacking team which was stunted by Zlatan and Jose trying to change Pogba to be able to play his preferred 4231 so he can shackle Pogba a bit. Not a bad thing but Pogba is best with more freedom. Allowing Mkhitaryan and Pogba to do what they are best at which is swift or creative passing and movement. For me this whole season has been Jose trying to mould people to fit Chelsea2:0.
Like already mentioned by some of you it is crucial to get a clear Overall Picture how we would like to line-up in the coming years and which of our actual Players could fit and for which positions we should look for improvements.
I am personally more a fan of a 4-2-3-1 and I could imagine that Pogba-Herrera might form a perfect partnership. Both have the Stamina so what they would Need is more discipline in their defensive work.
Herrera has got the Vision as well to Play the CDM in a midfield 2.
If Jose does not believe that this works we might either continue with 4-3-3 or get a better fit for the role than Herrera.
Mata is best played as a 10 whereas Mkhi is stronger on the right side given he has the right Players around him.
Martial and Rashford are quite similar Players with similar strengths. I am not sure if they complement each other that well.
That being said Griezman is the Kind of Player you must try to get if he is available. So if he is our main Transfer target Jose has surely started to think how to build the Team around him (and Pogba) and not how to shoehorn him into our existing Formation.
I can imagine that we Switch to something more of a 4-4-2 with Griezman being the false 9 and look for a new target man as well.
Pogba as the more attacking minded midfielder and a new CDM with Mkhi right and Martial/Rashford left. Although I have a Feeling that either Martial or Mkhi might move on.
Mata is always a welcome Option to throw in and we still have Lingard.
I am personally more a fan of a 4-2-3-1 and I could imagine that Pogba-Herrera might form a perfect partnership. Both have the Stamina so what they would Need is more discipline in their defensive work.
Herrera has got the Vision as well to Play the CDM in a midfield 2.
If Jose does not believe that this works we might either continue with 4-3-3 or get a better fit for the role than Herrera.
Mata is best played as a 10 whereas Mkhi is stronger on the right side given he has the right Players around him.
Martial and Rashford are quite similar Players with similar strengths. I am not sure if they complement each other that well.
That being said Griezman is the Kind of Player you must try to get if he is available. So if he is our main Transfer target Jose has surely started to think how to build the Team around him (and Pogba) and not how to shoehorn him into our existing Formation.
I can imagine that we Switch to something more of a 4-4-2 with Griezman being the false 9 and look for a new target man as well.
Pogba as the more attacking minded midfielder and a new CDM with Mkhi right and Martial/Rashford left. Although I have a Feeling that either Martial or Mkhi might move on.
Mata is always a welcome Option to throw in and we still have Lingard.
A 4-3-3 with antonie through the middle and two of mikhy, rashford, martial or Mata flanking him is the stuff of dreams and a nightmare for a defensive line, given their ability to interchange and pace.
Can't believe anyone would be 'meh' about such a possibility
Can't believe anyone would be 'meh' about such a possibility
Good job lol
Edi: this was meant to be a text to my friend!
Edi: this was meant to be a text to my friend!
Good job lol
Edi: this was meant to be a text to my friend!
WtfGood job lol
Edi: this was meant to be a text to my friend!
I don't want him. I just think that this is another statement signing who we would buy without any actual idea how to integrate him and our current players into a successful system. Where is he going to play? His best position is slightly behind a striker/alongside a striker but not as a number 10. So in that regard we'd be pretty much looking at two central midfield players behind him one of which would be Pogba who as a result would be in a position which obviously isn't his best. For what it's worth I think Griezmann is great but as I've said we seem to be trying to stockpile good players without any actual vision as to how we'd get the best out of all of them. If we were going to play extremely expansive and open football then fine but it's clear we're not going to do that under Mourinho.
That's way too over-optimistic line up for Mourinho's defensive nouse. Central midfield two consisting of Herrera and Pogba is bound to fail in long term in such sense that we won't meet with it our more ambitious targets.
Pogba is the perfect CAM. I don't get why he gets shifted around instead of building the team around our very own world record signing. It's not like he's cheaply came from within our ranks.
In my eyes Griezmann suits only 4-4-2 formation.
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Maybe we would look to play a diamond 4-4-2 if we sign him.
We could do something like this
Holding cm signing
Herrera Pogba
Mata/Mikti
Griezmann Rashford/Martial/New Signing
Juve was very successful with this diamond formation and I think we could be as well. A couple things would have to happen:
-We would have to have a mobile dm who can cover for fullbacks high up the field.
-We would need to sign a left back and a right back. I love Shaw and hope he makes it here but I'm not sure Mourinho truly believes in him yet and width from the fullbacks is key to this formation.
-We would have to have more midfield cover for Pogba and Herrera. Perreira I believe would be a great alternative to Pogba but we would need cover for Herrera on the right.
Overall I think this formation could be the way forward for us given the options we have in midfield and bringing out the best in each of them as well as accomodating Griezmann in his best role if we sign him.
We could do something like this
Holding cm signing
Herrera Pogba
Mata/Mikti
Griezmann Rashford/Martial/New Signing
Juve was very successful with this diamond formation and I think we could be as well. A couple things would have to happen:
-We would have to have a mobile dm who can cover for fullbacks high up the field.
-We would need to sign a left back and a right back. I love Shaw and hope he makes it here but I'm not sure Mourinho truly believes in him yet and width from the fullbacks is key to this formation.
-We would have to have more midfield cover for Pogba and Herrera. Perreira I believe would be a great alternative to Pogba but we would need cover for Herrera on the right.
Overall I think this formation could be the way forward for us given the options we have in midfield and bringing out the best in each of them as well as accomodating Griezmann in his best role if we sign him.
Both full backs, particularly Valencia (who at some point was leading the league in crosses), have had more than enough opportunities to get down the line, but have failed to deliver a quality ball into the box more often than not. That cannot be blamed on Mourinho.
ts always funny when people weigh the quality of a teams attack in terms of counter attacking ability when in truth mos teams will not give you the opportunity often enough in open-play to make it a worthwhile scheme. Most weaker teams will simply sit deep, and deny you the space behind, which then leaves you with only set piece opportunities to counter (when the CBs come forward).
A 4-2-3-1 give Pogba more freedom than a 4-3-3 and it also gives the team more attacking talent. Ignoring the back line and DM, in a 4-3-3, you would have 2xCMs +2AM/WF+1xCF, while a 4-2-3-1 gives 1xCMs +3AM/WF+1xCF. Essentially you trade a CM for an AM/WF. Also in a 4-3-3, Pogba is essentially a LCM and plays alongside a RCM on the other side, both of them have to share the ball, and Pogba has to be disciplined and coordinated with the RCM so has not to cramp the shared spaces. In a 4-2-3-1, Pogba has the entire CM role to himself and can basically do what he wants with it. On the defensive end, how much responsibility Pogba has would depend on the amount of possession the team has and the quality of DM. The main advantage of a 4-3-3 for Pogba is that he covers less space and makes fatigue less of an issue, but then there is no evidence that it cant be managed.
Mourinho has been forced to play 4-3-3 more often simply because we dont have the requisite quality in midfield and have had to make it up with numbers. With a solid DM and better defence, we will be more daring going forward.
For me the problem of the team comes primarily two issues: the average quality of the players we have is low for our ambitions and a lot of them are adapting to a new manager, system and/or league.
A diamond formation would expose both fullbacks and that's why I sadly don't believe that Mourinho would approve it in the PL.
But why should we be moving him further away from opposition's penalty box. DM and/or water carriers should be doing the job for him, not Paul getting ordered with multi-tasking juggle. We're restricting him from being able to execute more key passes that amount to direct goalscoring opportunities as well as more long range efforts we know he's well able to master. I understand that this season Mourinho has had to deal with some personnel constraints, but if in the next one Jose will still insist on playing Pogba in deep positions I will be sorely disappointed.
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Maybe we should looking at getting a young striker like Timo Werner. Rashford needs a lethal partner to recreate the Rooney/Ronaldo partnership of 04/05 to 08/09.
I guess this is where we view things very different.
Sorry but in no way does Pogba have more freedom in a 4231. 4231 for me anyway would hamper Pogba and restrict his ability to influence the game. Add in he isn't very good defensively, often switches off and lets people run off him which is the main reason Jose switched to 433 to protect the weakness that is Pogba positionally.
Also think back to the shape of 433 in an attacking phase that has squeezed the space of the opposition team. You'll have 3 more central players, 2 Fullbacks joining in providing the width freeing up space then you'll have two CAM, or just Pogba patroling the space in behind whilst your CB's push up to join or be slightly behind that free defensive midfielder. Now Herrera can join the attack or hold back, knowing Jose he'll want him to hold back.
I think a clarification needs to be made here that AM, CAM are not the same thing as a WF or LW/RW or LM/RM
For me ok there are 1 or 2 players that hamper the team Zlatan, Valencia for example but all in all the quality is there to be better than what we have been and the problem has been Jose and his poor use of the elements he has had in the team.
If you also watch the games you will hopefully have noticed the restrictions on our Fullbacks. I refuse to believe that Valencia a former winger wouldn't attack the space or get ahead of the ball and his man unless under instruction not to do so. For the clearest evidence of this see the WBA game, for some reason he opted to sit back as he has done often this season and so has Darmian on the other side.
You mention Valencias crosses and the chance created but I've seen a heat map of his crossing and the quality of the chances created and what kind of chance they were which indicates they don't have as much weight as people have been putting on them. Over half are headers and the actual amount of really good chances is about 12. Compared to Barcas map that was littered with orange and red chances compared to our map that was all green.
Now Valencia for whatever reason likes to cross from deep. Wouldn't even call it a cross, it's a diagonal long ball it's that deep and they are floated in and of no threat. The stat is skewed by the fact we have a 6ft 5 beast getting on them just making any sort of contact.
Back on your 4231, in Joses hands and actually just life it's a more defensive formation than 433. Arguably it's not the formation that decides if something is defensive more the man wileding it. I mean Jose saying Conte was defensive shows his complete lack of understanding of the system as done right it's an abbreviation of 433 when in an attacking phase, but arguably providing even more freedom.
As for counters at time this year we would have been a far better team if we had adopted that as we have all the personal there to make it happen.
Also many teams, in this league play against packed defences but manage to carve teams open. Jose called Chelsea a counter attacking team and they seem to be top. Again an over simplification of what type of football they play by himself.
I really don't understand why you don't think we have the quality in midfield. We maybe don't have the depth but Carrick is still arguably in the top 3 DM's in the league and from the get go was the obvious partner for Pogba but Jose for whatever reason figured Fellaini was his man which was laughable. However a fit 3 of Herrera,Pogba and Carrick I'd easily put against any teams midfield in the league and feel happy with that.
Can I ask would Kante be your choice for a Dm? Even tho positionally he goes missing and in combination with Pogba would be horrendous? Actually Pogba and Griezmann are a problem for France. Because playing both you can't get either in to their best position. And neither Matudi or Kante showed they could solve the issue. Recently France have tried the guy from Lyon Talasca I think his name is and then Bakayoko got a look in with Pogba injury.France being a 4231 of course.
Actually the best formation to fit Pogba and Griezmann in for me would be some sort of abbreviation of a 352.
Anyway was intresting reading your views on football and how you interpret the 4231, however it's not something I agree with in it being Pogba best formation or even an attacking formation.
Jose favours a 4-2-3-1 it's the formation we've played more than any other this season so I suspect this is how we'll line up
---------------GK---------------
Valencia--Bailly--CB--------LB
-------Herrera--Pogba-------
Mata-----Griezmann-----Mkhitaryan
---------------CF---------------
I believe Jose probably would have thought Zlatan would play CF so who knows if he just puts faith in Rashford there now or goes and buys in that position as well
---------------GK---------------
Valencia--Bailly--CB--------LB
-------Herrera--Pogba-------
Mata-----Griezmann-----Mkhitaryan
---------------CF---------------
I believe Jose probably would have thought Zlatan would play CF so who knows if he just puts faith in Rashford there now or goes and buys in that position as well
The frustrating thing about that for me is that then Mkhitaryan might not fit in a 352/3142 or whatever they call it now.
De Gea
Rojo - Bailly - CB
LWB - Pogba - DM - Herrera - Valencia
Griezmann - ST
I think Juventus played a formation like this last season and in theory it might get the best out of Griezmann and Pogba interms of having three CM's (necessary in modern football now?), but then Mkhitaryan doesn't really fit. He isn't a CM, could he be converted into a wing-back? Is it even worth it trying? In theory he could be like Guardiola's full backs, in the sense that Guardiola likes them to come central at times to numerically overload and control central midfield, and Mkhitaryan does like to move centrally from wide as we saw at Borussia Dortmund last season. But then you have to figure out what to do with Valencia who has had a good season imo.Rojo - Bailly - CB
LWB - Pogba - DM - Herrera - Valencia
Griezmann - ST
You could adjust it so that you have two CM's and a AM to fit Mkhitaryan in as well but then Pogba is back in a midfield two.
Probably a bad idea, but could Mkhi play off Griezmann as support striker? Like a pseudo #9 who drops deep to create, a false #9? Mkhitaryan can pass pretty well after all. But would his dropping deep leave Griezmann out to dry at times? Of course it's surely not his best position but I do wonder if he could adapt to that kind of role...
I think you'r worrying too much about Mikhi. I have no problem with him being a sub if he doesn't suit the system, same for Mata.
Fixed.Good blow job
Edi: this was meant to be a text to my mum!
I'm really struggling with the fact you put LWB on the right side and Valencia on the left side. It makes my head hurt.
Unless you're playing De Gea up front and thinking we can put Griez and another player in goal.
Probably he just listed them wrong, he put the left side of the pitch on the side his left hand was writing on the keyboard, just like that.
I'm disappointed that after reading the post, this is the summation of your thoughts on it. Nothing at all about if that system would at all work, nothing about how Mkihi could fit in, about 3/5 at the back, and nothing about whether such a big shift in the system is worthwhile to accommodate one player.
I think most people knew what I really meant when I wrote up that XI, but at least I tried to add to the discussion.
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This is a problem, the only way I can see it working is Miki off of Griezmann. I think Griezmann could do a job as a 9. I'm just not sure he can do it under Jose's way of playing. So more say Miki at the top of a diamond.
I just really don't like Pogba in a two. He's shown improvement over the last couple of months, but I feel like he sacrifices a lot of his game doing that. I'm also sure a reason why he will want Griezmann is his defensive work. He is a better version of Oscar in that regard.
The way Pep or Klopp play I could see Griezmann easily functioning as a 9 or a 9.5. It's really Jose which is the issue for me. He does quite isolate his forward with the defensive restrictions he puts on the rest of the squad. I've never seen anything from him that suggests he is willing to change his base philosophy of football.
On Your shape, I do think it would suit Shaw and Valencia better. I haven't been that impressed with Valencia. In all honesty I think he has been quite average. His impact on games of creating a threat has been quite non existent for me. He's just been a solid, consistent average performer. A better RB and I feel like we would be a better team.
Ok no need to be a drama lama. I was just trying to be humorous.
I'm happy with that formation, we'd need to get a decent LWB in that case though. It just seems to attack the attacking edge, so we'd need some threatening names in those gaps.
Well whatever Formation we are going to Play I think Mkhi would be an important Player for Griezman to have around. He is one of our few Players with an eye for through balls and fast passing and movement. Pogba and Mata would also complement Griezman quite well in my opinion.
We won't play the same formation all the season so Mikhi will get a share number of minutes sure, same for Mata, but if our main formation is 4-3-3 there's no place for Mikhi if we want to play players that will give 100% of their abilites, if we played 4-3-3 I'll prefer to get Griezmann and either a striker or a right forward with a DMF and a CB.
Fabinho
Herrera - Pogba
Silva - Griezmann - Martial
Fabinho
Herrera- Pogba
Griezmann- Morata - Martial
Herrera - Pogba
Silva - Griezmann - Martial
Fabinho
Herrera- Pogba
Griezmann- Morata - Martial
I'm just listing names for example, in this formation there's no role for Mikhi in this formation, playing him on the right will decrease his abilities from 100% to 60-70% max which I don't want.
If we go with 4-2-3-1 he may have a role if we played Griezmann as a striker.
Herrera - Pogba
Silva - Mikhi - ( LW )
Griezmann
I'm not really convinced with Martial as LW on the flanks, seems to be much better as a left forward cutting inside so if we go with 4-2-3-1 we'll need to get 2 wings not just right one. If Jose got a striker other than Griezmann and Silve then Mikhi will be on the bench. If we only got Griezmann and a striker then either Mikhi will be used on the right flank which I don't like, or Griezmann will be the one used on the right which will decrease his abilities also to 70 % of what we have or something like that. Griezmann is better in the center and Mikhi too so the only formation that can combine both efficiently is the 4-2-3-1 I listed.Silva - Mikhi - ( LW )
Griezmann
I'll prefer to go with getting Griezmann as a striker and RW and go with the 4-3-3 as it'll get maximum of all players, Pogba, Herrera, Griezmann, Martial and sure the RW we'll get.
Taking aside the already discussed matter of Griezmann's suitability to a lone striker role this choice of formation stifles Pogba's game. I don't think we've spent £89 million on a poor man's Pirlo.
Hmm did you read the last sentence of the post ?
Sorry, my bad. That's an effect of hectic reading and replying while talking with someone from another room. ;x #CampaigningForPogbasWelfare
No problem, mate. You're welcome any time.
Griezmann is a tricky one. He will not take games on the scruff of their necks and win them single handedly like a Messi or Ronaldo or Hazard or or Neymar or Robben.
What he will offer is a keen sense of positioning, brilliant passes, speed, intelligence and an eye for goals.
Personally, the former types of players are the ones I think are worth the type of money linked to Griezmann. I consider them to be very dangerous. They are like X-factors for their teams. They cut through defenses. They are good dribblers plus they also have that eye for goals.
So, if you ask me, I wouldn't spend all that money buying Griezmann as good as he is. However, Griezmann becomes worth of any money you invest in him if the right team is built around him and fitted accurately into his qualities. That's what Simeone has done well for Griezmann. The big question is, will Jose achieve the same because if he does not, people will quickly label the record breaking buy, a big flop.
What he will offer is a keen sense of positioning, brilliant passes, speed, intelligence and an eye for goals.
Personally, the former types of players are the ones I think are worth the type of money linked to Griezmann. I consider them to be very dangerous. They are like X-factors for their teams. They cut through defenses. They are good dribblers plus they also have that eye for goals.
So, if you ask me, I wouldn't spend all that money buying Griezmann as good as he is. However, Griezmann becomes worth of any money you invest in him if the right team is built around him and fitted accurately into his qualities. That's what Simeone has done well for Griezmann. The big question is, will Jose achieve the same because if he does not, people will quickly label the record breaking buy, a big flop.
Not sure that Hazard, Robben or even Neymar had been as decisive for such a defensive team. He is exactly that - a person who singlehandedly wins you games. Look at the amount of times when he scored a winner, or, even better, the only goal in the game (especially lately)
Will be United's new number 7 - assuming our interest is as firm as being reported.
It truly baffles me when you see the odd post that questions why he would leave a relative minnow in global sport to join the absolute mammoth that is United.
I said all last summer, Pogba would be joining as soon as I was certain of our interest.
We are not the United of the Fergie era that penny pinched on fees and salaries. We pay equal to the best. This matters way more than our recent trophy hauls.
If we had this approach when Fergie was here and we were a quality team, the idea that the very best always want to join Real or Barca would not exist.
It truly baffles me when you see the odd post that questions why he would leave a relative minnow in global sport to join the absolute mammoth that is United.
I said all last summer, Pogba would be joining as soon as I was certain of our interest.
We are not the United of the Fergie era that penny pinched on fees and salaries. We pay equal to the best. This matters way more than our recent trophy hauls.
If we had this approach when Fergie was here and we were a quality team, the idea that the very best always want to join Real or Barca would not exist.
Strange thing that Bayern are interested in a possible 89m player. They weren't a club that pays that much for one player.
They kinda have to be given that Ribery and Robben won't play forever and have been regressing.
Could bring Sanchez and they are already linked to him, will cost them less than Griezmann. Will be interesting joining the clubs that pay that much for a player as us and Madrid.
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