It's a two way street. Mourinho, or who ever the manager is, won't show faith in a player who decides when he wants to put in the effort and when not to.
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It's a two way street. Mourinho, or who ever the manager is, won't show faith in a player who decides when he wants to put in the effort and when not to.
Do you find it plausible that he'd be given this many chances if it was an issue with effort. Not putting in an effort is usually a one way street.
This focus on not putting in an effort, facial expressions, being lazy, seems to be more of a stick to beat him with rather than an analysis of him
Very impressed with his showing, particularly in the second half, in the context of our team performance and his confidence levels/game time. Really had a drive about him even if things didn't always come off. The goal was superbly taken.
It's a bit of an odd argument. But yes, the team in the 08/09 season was pretty mint. Though it's hardly a scale either, the team we have now isn't exactly shabby, the argument is if a more attacking minded manager, that focuses on taking advantage of the attacking players, would get more out of the team that Mourinho does. I reckon it's an easy yes. Don't think Fergie would've minded having this squad, though obviously not over what was one of his best squads ever.
The point initially made was that knowing that he's playing 90 minutes and not being subbed off after an hour results in Martial putting in extra effort and desire. Well, my reply to that was that if he puts in that desire from the 1st minute, which he clearly and evidently lacks, there'd be no question about him playing the full match.
It's an odd statement, there's been matches in the past (though not many of them) where he's been on for the full 90 due to injury forcing other substitutions, without it having a vast effect on his performances. I don't see the need for hyperbole ala "clearly and evidently lacks". If a player clearly lacks desire, then I'm fairly certain that someone like Mourinho wouldn't include him at all, and he wouldn't be called up for France at all either, it's too much of a negative character trade for a professional footballer at a top club. The easier, and more logic conclusion, would simply be: 1- Not performing well enough 2- Not doing the pre-agreed tasks.
I think our midfield under Ferguson was much better than you're making out. Anderson and Cleverley were the up and coming players. We had Carrick-Scholes and Fletcher as the first XI players - and boy I would love to have them back at their prime.
Rio, Vidic, Evra were all world class. We had a much more solid core under Ferguson than we do now. Nani was better than Martial. Valencia was miles better than anything we have on the right wing. Neville/Rafael were probably at least as good as anything we have on the RB at the moment - I love Valencia, but he hasn't been good lately.
So I'd say, in their positions. In Ferguson's latter years, we had these players that would walk into our team in the following positions:
CB: Rio and Vidic
LB: Evra
CM: Carrick
LW: Nani
RW: Valencia
ST: RVP
CAM: Rooney
That's most of the team... And I'd probably put Rafael in at RB. Pogba would walk into the team, as would most likely Matic. Other than that... I do agree that individually, our team is pretty good, but Fergie's last team was underrated.
I'm not revising anything, you just didn't read the words in my post.
10 years ago it was 2008... we had the likes of Carrick, Scholes, Giggs, Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra, Brown. That's better than what we've got. In fact, it might be better in every position. That doesn't take into account some world class options up front.
10 years before that we had Neville, Irwin, Johnsen, Stam, Keane, Scholes, Giggs, & Beckham... plus 4 fantastic forwards. Are you really going to tell me that any 4 midfielders we could currently put on the pitch could compare with that quartet? If not, maybe just read what I wrote without feeling the need to jump all over me, and the players you mentioned that gave their all for the club when they were here.
I think others have answered it by now but just to call on your last point. Yes the final season or two you can argue it was poorer but than now but in our last season RvP dragged us to the title with individual brilliance. SAF knew we needed that and sadly we don't have anyone of that calibre in the team right now.
Martial and Lukaku aren't there yet and well Sanchez should have been but evidently isn't.
Unfortunately we could go round and round... If our attacking players were converting more of their chances, it wouldn't make Mourinho a better manager. If their form improves under another manager, then he'll be better than Mourinho... it's a team game, and the manager, players, coaching staff, CEO etc. are all part of that team. I don't like the division at this club, and I hate how as the vultures circle, people are pointing fingers. I hate it even more after a win. People say it's because of Mourinho, but it was no different under Van Gaal. The manager has been sacked a couple of times since Sir Alex retired, and all but a handful of players have been moved on. The only consistents in the last 5 years are the board, the fans, and the complaints.
Dont put too much hope. The last 3 years is telling that Jose will drop Martial anytime he gets even just a slightliest chance to do that.
I used to believe, especially the short period before Sanchez signing, but at this point, i must accept the truth that the combination between Martial and Mourinho will never work.
Martial isnt the type of Mourinho's attackers and Mourinho at this moment isnt the man being open to changes anymore. So for sure the successful prospect with both of them together will never happen
I used to believe, especially the short period before Sanchez signing, but at this point, i must accept the truth that the combination between Martial and Mourinho will never work.
Martial isnt the type of Mourinho's attackers and Mourinho at this moment isnt the man being open to changes anymore. So for sure the successful prospect with both of them together will never happen
Even though he's inconsistent and can look lazy/uninterested at times, I think he should be a starter. As he's one of few who can create a moment of brilliance of our players.
Hopefully he can become more consistent with more playing time...
Hopefully he can become more consistent with more playing time...
Martial should start. He is the kind of player who can play for 10 minutes of the 90 minutes and turn a game. The rest of the 80 minutes he could be terrible.
Not entirely sure if i understand the logic here. Moyes attempted several tactics, maybe far too many, in a desperate attempt to find a solution. Van Gaal stuck with his beliefs, but he couldn't get the players on board, either because they were the wrong players for his system or because he didn't do a good enough job. Mourinho has his system. Moyes failing isn't an excuse for Van Gaal, and Van Gaal failing isn't an excuse for Mourinho.
Mourinho is in his third season, and at that stage you expect to see major improvements compared to when he took over. I think, overall, he's done a solid job of getting quality players, but he hasn't done a good enough job getting those players to deliver quality performances. After two full seasons you get to a point where you need to question what the manager is doing
If you look at the comparison matrix at Squawka it's pretty grim when it comes to our attack (and defence, for that matter). Liverpool averaged almost 2,5 shots more inside the opponents box, City with 2,6, Tottenham with almost 1,5. The total over the course of the seaon means that City had 100 more shots inside the opponents box, Liverpool around 90, Tottenham around 50. City with 120 more chances created, Liverpool with 100 more, Tottenham with 70.
Compared to our previous seasons. The only season we've created less chances, and have had less shots inside the opponents box than in 17/18 is in Van Gaals last season. Even in the disaster that was the 13/14 season, we had more chances created and more shots inside the opponents box. Compare it to our last title winning season and you'll see chances created and shots inside the box is very similar to what City and Liverpool are producing.
For me, with the players we have available in attack and midfield, we should be creating and scoring a lot more than we are, and i easily think it's down to Mourinho's focus on defence first.
In that sentence you highlighted, I was referring to people blaming Mourinho for the division that's apparent in our club. The division has been there since half way through Moyes' first season... and I'm not sure we can actually be sure in blaming Mourinho for it (although I'm not saying he's innocent, or some sort of victim). I'm just saying it predated his tenure, and I'd be surprised if it doesn't survive him.
I don't disagree with much, if anything you said... I'm just not ready to lay all the blame at the feet of one man. I don't think it's that easy a fix.
Never had any doubts about Martial. Give him the game time and he will produce moments of real quality. Last season he was our most productive attacker until January.
Yes. But don't forget those team was build by Sir Alex.
We just don't know how good our attack with Martial, Rashford, Mata, and Sanchez could be under Sir Alex. On paper, though, those names would guarantee a slick and quick passing attack. And you just know that with his team, the sum is always greater than the individuals.
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@Rossa @Smores @Decomposing In Paris Obviously I'm not arguing about the team 10 years ago as that one was obviously better but my argument is in regard to SAF last team, the one he used for the his last 2-3 years which won us the league as well and did reach CL final.
Despite having Scholes, he was already past it during SAF latest years(and came back from retirement). Nani was an inconsistent player whom people were always getting frustrated over, saying otherwise would be rewriting history. Valancia had one top season and he never met those height again with people always annoyed at his shit crossing(that's right, Valancia shit crossings started during SAF tenure where he'd just hit the first man while attempting to cross).
In those later years with SAF we mostly did business with the likes of Chicharito, Welbeck, Kagawa, a declining Rooney, an inconsistent Nani, a frustrating Valancia, Ashley Young. The only real bonafida attacker we had was RVP.
The midfield was even worse which always often brought the complaints about SAF not investing in the midfield. It was always agreed upon that the likes of Cleverly, injury prone and often unfit Anderson were average which they were. Scholes was already past it. The only top player left in midfield and mostly carried it for us was Carrick.
The only area of the were that previous team was clearly better was our defence given we still had the likes of Ferdinand, Evra, Vidic etc.
Difference with that team is that SAF made them perform at the best of their abilities which is what causing us issues right now. Our team is clearly underperforming. The players aren't playing as well as they should.
Despite having Scholes, he was already past it during SAF latest years(and came back from retirement). Nani was an inconsistent player whom people were always getting frustrated over, saying otherwise would be rewriting history. Valancia had one top season and he never met those height again with people always annoyed at his shit crossing(that's right, Valancia shit crossings started during SAF tenure where he'd just hit the first man while attempting to cross).
In those later years with SAF we mostly did business with the likes of Chicharito, Welbeck, Kagawa, a declining Rooney, an inconsistent Nani, a frustrating Valancia, Ashley Young. The only real bonafida attacker we had was RVP.
The midfield was even worse which always often brought the complaints about SAF not investing in the midfield. It was always agreed upon that the likes of Cleverly, injury prone and often unfit Anderson were average which they were. Scholes was already past it. The only top player left in midfield and mostly carried it for us was Carrick.
The only area of the were that previous team was clearly better was our defence given we still had the likes of Ferdinand, Evra, Vidic etc.
Difference with that team is that SAF made them perform at the best of their abilities which is what causing us issues right now. Our team is clearly underperforming. The players aren't playing as well as they should.
But your point is weak, simply because he has shown that to the point where he got the starting job over Rashford last season only to be cast away once Sanchez came in after being one of the best performers on offense. Players are not machines, and young players especially need an arm around the shoulder (for the most part), they are not going to be at full confidence when they get the odd start here and there and if there's any bad performances he gets benched while others can stink up the joint for months without their starting job being in jeorpardy (ie Lukaku or Sanchez although he's finally losing that privilege about 6 months late). I know it's hard for some of you to put yourselves in their shoes because they're millionaires, and they should just get on with it but that's just not how people work, especially young players.
Neither you, nor I know how Martial is truly instructed to play. What I saw last game was a team as a whole, but focusing on him specifically, scared to make a mistake (outside of Pogba). This is the fault of coaching for the players to feel that way, they should be confident in the coach's trust in them but that is clearly not the case and you can't blame them with Mourinho coming out with wild starting XI's, one after the other, no consistency. Once Martial knew he wouldn't get hooked, it seemed to liberate him but again this is just my perspective, I have no idea what is going on in his head. He just seemed willing to try far more things and that resulted in the goal, but Martial had that confidence last season and Mourinho's done a piss-poor job cultivating it and pretty much set him back and now he's slowly putting the pieces back together.
Also, the 'clear lack of effort' bit is nonsense and just your skewed perspective. If you want Martial to run his socks off all over the pitch, you might as well watch another player because that's not his game, and that's okay.
Don't even want to imagine what a coach like Sarri would do with him, sadly at this rate we might have to find out.
I disagree, we have better-attacking depth, Rooney and RVP is only world class for us, Nani was one of top 5 wingers in the world, top 10 playmakers in the world at the time, only Messi play better on right flank than him, Rooney was one of best attacking in the world at the time before his decline, all-around attacking, high work-rate, behind Messi and Ronaldo level but he is the only player that could rival Messi and Ronaldo for 1st if he had quality midfield to support them. Chicharito is super sub, scoring a lot coming as a sub. On other hands, we have Berb. Nani > Mata, RVP > Lukaku, Rooney > Martial, Berb > Sanchez, Prime Valencia > Lingard, Rashford > Welbeck. They are one of the reasons why we win a lot of games and a lot of comebacks because we always have quality attacking players on the bench who could score off.
I agree about the midfield, we have much better midfield than we had during SAF's latter days. If we had 2009-2013 United attacking players combine with a midfield that has Herrera, Pogba, Matic, Periera, Fred, etc, we'd be much better.
I don't think this is the thread for this discussion, so I'm not going to take this much further. I was pretty specific about the teams form 10 and 20 years ago, whilst discussing our current attacking options. You said I was rewriting history because you assumed I was referring to the last 2-3 years of Sir Alex's time here. Which I wasn't. You've now tried to justify your stance, which was entirely based on you not reading my post. Even in doing so, you've left out important players like Fletcher, Park, and particularly Giggs, who was incredible in Central Midfield during our run to the Champions League final in 2011. Valencia was certainly not a one season wonder, injuries and time have taken a toll, but that is rewriting history. I will accept that people were complaining about our midfield, just like they are complaining about everything now it seems... but there really is no need to take this much further.
What season was that?
Agreed his shit crossing began under SAF. The year he wore number 7 he was not good.
Valencia has always been a limited footballer, not just a shit crosser. Even at his prime he was only good at running fast, giving cut backs, a good shot and he would get himself in good positions to score. Granted he was very good at those things especially in the 11-12 season and the opposition couldn't stop him, but you can't even compare his technical ability to some of our former genius right wingers like Nani and Beckham. In my view, Valencia more than any other player has been the symbol of our decline as a footballing side.
Actually felt this way as well, always felt SAF's insistence on starting him every game held us back so much.
Those are valid arguments. I don't think people won't have an issue with him being benched though. I find that hard to believe. There will always be excuses made for him, even if he is given a run of games and doesn't perform. He doesn't have a FB to help him, wrong position, wrong formation, he has to track back. There will always be something.
Offensively we need to start playing through martial as our main outlet. Ive been watching a few highlights of him the past 2 seasons and it really makes me sick seeing him CROSSING the ball. Its obvious this has been instructions given to him by mourinho because this was never his game plan under LVG. Ever since Lukaku arrived he has been our main outlet but he doesn't seem to reliable and goes way too many games at a time without scoring. When he does its all good but his lack of scoring has seen us 7 points off the top in just 8 games.
Martial was most effective when he ran at players towards the line while given a cutback cross/pass with a surge of our players getting on the end of it. We should never have switched from that style of play because it doesn't suit romelu. This style of play would suit players like sanchez pogba, mata etc that like to hover around the center of the box while defenders are occupied with Lukaku.
We need for martial to stop handicapping himself by opting for lazy crosses and actually stress fullbacks by running at them. It also never really made that much sense because martial isn't really that good at crossing to begin with. Mourinho needs to be more open minded tactically and ditch his preffered style of playing.
Martial was most effective when he ran at players towards the line while given a cutback cross/pass with a surge of our players getting on the end of it. We should never have switched from that style of play because it doesn't suit romelu. This style of play would suit players like sanchez pogba, mata etc that like to hover around the center of the box while defenders are occupied with Lukaku.
We need for martial to stop handicapping himself by opting for lazy crosses and actually stress fullbacks by running at them. It also never really made that much sense because martial isn't really that good at crossing to begin with. Mourinho needs to be more open minded tactically and ditch his preffered style of playing.
Exactly what is wrong with him crossing? Feck me we've gone from he should never defend to he should never cross now?
You'd think he was pumping the balls in constantly by that but it's rare he even does and when he does it's usually the right choice made. I've never known such bollocks surround a player, people actually want him to be one dimensional because they enjoy it
His crossing is not effective tbh
I disagree, I think it’s not an orthodox cross but his weird top spin cross I think is quite effective. There was one at the weekend which was pristine, I can’t recall who was trying to get on the end of it but it was pretty close. Crossing isn’t really his game and is more of a there isn’t many other options for him so he puts one in, but all in all when he chooses to do that more often than not they are of good quality.
I suppose many don’t appreciate as much as it’s just not the same as someone whipping a cross in like say a left footed winger could and truthfully I do kind of miss not having anyone in the team that can really do that outside of Dalot and Shaw.
Where's that guy who had that mini meltdown last week about changing national teams? He must have cried when Martial scored on Saturday 
I see people are going a bit nuts because he scored a goal. He played well, but let's see him put a few more good performances in.
Why should he cross when Lukaku is never finding the space, never has a first touch.
There's nothing wrong in him crossing - but to argue that it isn't the main way we are playing because of Jose is wrong.
He has Rashford & Martial both played out wide as possible to provide crosses to a central lumberjack target man striker & that isn't the getting the best out of anybody.
Our whole teams main goal is to cross from out fullbacks to our wingers. When Lukaku has a bad game - surprise suprise - we struggle to score from anyone else. Apart from when Jose gets rid of the tactics he starts with.
Martial out of our strikers has the best first touch, best ability to control the ball in tight spaces, has the best ability to make short passes & interlink with other players whilst also liking to drop deep to receive the ball.
The last thing he should be doing is to be playing LM with the primary intention of crossing that ball. He is also played on the left to cut in and shoot - but the fact is Martial's dribbling ability is overrated & he is better in moving in to isolate players that are not properly positioned so he can then take them on. That's not the same thing as him running behind defenders to receive the ball over the top.
All martial, Rashford, Lukaku, Sanchez are arguably central forwards who have the capability of drifting wide in to space - we should be trying to do that but instead all of these players are played out wide already where they are easily marked off by fullbacks.
totally agree 100%. You can evidently see its not his natural game yet he always looks for the cross to the back post for Lukaku. We are not getting the best of either player. Martial has cut down on the dribbling under Jose. There's nothing wrong with crossing but it does infuriate me to watch him dribble at a player and then stop and look for a lazy cross. Under LVG he would keep dribbling until the byline before looking to cut back. It's obviously tactical. Why should we play like this when we could play an interchanging front 3 all working for each other and making runs off the ball?
calm down dude. Thats all he ever does now. If you could relax and not inflate things you will see that I meant he should run more at defenders and make cut back crosses instead of crossing immediately when he gets into a wide position. Mourinho has him playing to the benefite of lukaku which I don't believe is best for our attack right now.
It would actually benefit both players if martial made easy passes for lukaku at the line instead of always crossing the ball which he isn't particularly good at.
we need a more dimensional front three working for each other instead of all our players working for lukaku who can't find the back of the net right now.
Yeah your right it’s first good performance martial has put in for us........
Could you imagine this lad in the current Chelsea side?
I don't know about going nuts. The positive reaction to Martial playing well and scoring a goal is a good thing.
The way forward as I see it is Martial left, Sanchez central and Lukaku right, but giving the freedom to create what they will wherever the gaps appear.
I'm not on board with Pogba as a central defender but I'm sure there's a thread on that already.
The way forward as I see it is Martial left, Sanchez central and Lukaku right, but giving the freedom to create what they will wherever the gaps appear.
I'm not on board with Pogba as a central defender but I'm sure there's a thread on that already.
He certainly divides opinions although at the moment lots of our players seem to do that.
I listened to the Newcastle match on the radio and late in the 2nd half, I think when we had taken the lead that Mourinho was shouting and waving Martial to get back (can't recall the reason) and Martial just stood there staring back at his manager. Even the commentator said how bad it looked.
Whatever the agenda between Martial and Mourinho, to completely ignore his manager's instructions is not only unprofessional but it is hardly going to impress the manager or the fans for that matter.
Imagine if he did that to SAF. He would have had more than a teacup kicked his way.
Don't need to get all sarcy lad. He's notoriously inconsistent and people notoriously go ott every time he puts in a single good performance, which isn't very often. I want him get a run now like anyone and do well, but I'll wait and see if he can do it.
No doubt some will wanna get aggy because of such a wild suggestion. I bet someone says the word agenda
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