[Art Vandelay]

Thing is under Jose - any player that finds it hard is called as players that don't try or have some sort of mental problem. Lukaku didn't try hard enough at chelsea, De bryune was weak and lazy to run, Salah was mentally weak, Luke shaw is fat and doesnt have the mindset of a footballer, Martial is lazy, Rashford isnt jealous enough to be a striker then suddenly turning to be too jealous - you ultimately hear it all.

The truth is - Jose likes mentally and physically strong players to the 100% - A player that is mentally strong only up to 80-90% is not enough for him; not every player has to be an ibrahimovic - but for Jose that is wrong & if he struggles to get the best out of these players they are targeted directly as something faulty and wrong with them.

There was nothing wrong with shaw - he just needed the chance to work hard and have a proper run in the team from preseason to the start with him playing in his best position. Martial will kick it, play better when he is given the time to do so under tactics and a position that allows him to do so- when that happens people will suddenly act like he tried harder than he ever did before. Just because he is not good at making off the shoulder runs does not make him weak & lazy- its just that - that is not the type of football that gets the best out of him. The same thing was said to de bryune as he struggled to gallop on the right of midfield whilst on the other side Hazard was rocking it.

Shaw wasn't good enough and had a questionable attitude which has now been corrected by the manager thus he is being played. Jose seems to be getting the best out of him now that Shaw is doing what Jose wants him to. You're just making excuses for Martial's performances like people used to do for Rooney.

De Bruyne, Salah and Lukaku were sold because they didn't fit in with the plans at Chelsea. How many other young players have they brought through since then? It's the way things are at Chelsea. If they'd stayed at Chelsea they still wouldn't have been in the first team and the club made a profit on them.

 

[CM]

I don’t recall that bit. I recall Shaw being called fat and unfit, which he certainly was or at least the latter one of the two. I remember people calling him not good enough because he was shaky positionally in some games, which he was. I don’t recall anyone saying he doesn’t try enough while on the pitch, which is what’s being leveled at Martial.

It wasn't always as direct as saying he's half-arsing it or not giving his best but there were certainly plenty thinking that way. It was usually dressed up as Shaw being lazy, unprofessional and mentally fragile - and we're beginning to see the same things being said of Martial now.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Exactly. He was good under LVG because the team was very static and used to depend on getting the ball to him and allow him to dribble. With his atrocious movement I doubt any manager who loves high pressing will like him. His movement is nothing compared to the running Salah, Mane, Sterling and Sane do the whole game even if they have a day off they keep running and creating havoc in spaces. Martial gets invisible a lot through the game before pulling a moment or 2 of brilliance. Don't think Klopp or Pep will withstand this.

I'm not sure about Sane and Salah but Mane and Sterling were never experienced with high press, Mane played exactly like Martial does for us when he was at Southampton. They both were taught how to press collectively and how to move and provide options for teammate with the ball. Martial is not like Berbatov, he does track back and can be taught to press and improve his movement by a decent coach.

 

[Art Vandelay]

It wasn't always as direct as saying he's half-arsing it or not giving his best but there were certainly plenty thinking that way. It was usually dressed up as Shaw being lazy, unprofessional and mentally fragile - and we're beginning to see the same things being said of Martial now.

But could it not be that Shaw was being all those things and now that he has corrected it and is doing what the manager wants he is getting a run in the team? If he keeps this up and keeps his place then surely he is the example to follow for Martial.

As you say it's easy to criticise players for their attitude when they aren't playing, but it's not outlandish to believe their attitude is contributing to them not playing.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

Shaw wasn't good enough and had a questionable attitude which has now been corrected by the manager thus he is being played. Jose seems to be getting the best out of him now that Shaw is doing what Jose wants him to. You're just making excuses for Martial's performances like people used to do for Rooney.

De Bruyne, Salah and Lukaku were sold because they didn't fit in with the plans at Chelsea. How many other young players have they brought through since then? It's the way things are at Chelsea. If they'd stayed at Chelsea they still wouldn't have been in the first team and the club made a profit on them.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ys-angry-Jose-Mourinho-sold-Kevin-Bruyne.html

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...urinho-romelu-lukaku-transfer-chelsea-everton

Just cant be bothered with you guys - the manager simply cannot do anything wrong. You said it perfectly right by the way - De Bryune, Salah, mata and Lukaku were sold because they didn't fit in with his plans - however the way Jose would egg them off as outsiders of the club is by questioning their mentality. Seen it for far too long and watched it happen with Martial.

He was never in Jose's plans so ultimately got pushed over for having a poor mentality.

How people can't see through Jose's words and actions are just beyond me. People acting like this third season syndrome is the first time it has happened to. Shaw has had a proper pre-season and recovery time to try harder at LB; more often than not he has actually been given a chance this time playing in a position he knows he is the best in.

Give Jose all the positives you want -
i'm not having any of it. The same goes for Lingard; who he started as RM and was sh*te - ran out of AM's and found at that Lingard is much more likely to perform at the centre of attacking midfield. What a surprise. Give players chances, give players the capability to perform in their best roles enabling to get the best out of them - you will have ' hard work' show off which is just Jose's damn word for good, goal scoring performances.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I'm not sure about Sane and Salah but Mane and Sterling were never experienced with high press, Mane played exactly like Martial does for us when he was at Southampton. They both were taught how to press collectively and how to move and provide options for teammate with the ball. Martial is not like Berbatov, he does track back and can be taught to press and improve his movement by a decent coach.

Berbatov did track back as much as you'd expect of most strikers. That was a lazy media stereotype because he looked languid and didn't go sprinting back to his own box like Rooney and Tevez did. He was actually great at clearing corners too if I remember right.

Martial does actually track back too. For me the issue is when we have the ball he just stands looking for it to feet, the laziness is the movement off the ball and seemingly not having worked on this in the years he's been here. He just doesn't look alert or interested in anything other than ball to feet.

 

[CM]

But could it not be that Shaw was being all those things and now that he has corrected it and is doing what the manager wants he is getting a run in the team? If he keeps this up and keeps his place then surely he is the example to follow for Martial.

As you say it's easy to criticise players for their attitude when they aren't playing, but it's not outlandish to believe their attitude is contributing to them not playing.

It's possible but it's not how I see it. I don't really want to get into arguing what was what.

My point is these are easy narratives to peddle once a player falls out of favour. 'Oh he doesn't work hard enough, he doesn't want it enough, he doesn't have the mentality to be here.' These ideas don't require much thought at all and once enough people start saying it, they become accepted as fact.

The only true way to judge these things is when the player is given the chances to prove it on the pitch.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

I'm not sure about Sane and Salah but Mane and Sterling were never experienced with high press, Mane played exactly like Martial does for us when he was at Southampton. They both were taught how to press collectively and how to move and provide options for teammate with the ball. Martial is not like Berbatov, he does track back and can be taught to press and improve his movement by a decent coach.

Bingo- people assume defending & falling back on the wing is the same as defending everywhere else - it is not. You have to fall back in line but be in a position to recieve the ball because wingers are placed as fundamentals to be part of the counter attack. Place him in a team who forces him to press up on the more wider central areas of defence - he will do it and he has no ability to be lost nor have some way of acting purposefully lazy with your job to be right in front of you.

Martial will 100% press on the defence in front of him.

I wanted to say the same thing as you but the words never managed to tangle out in the right pattern. Well done

Attacking wise he needs to play under a manager who admires and purposefully wants him to get the ball to feet and take the central defenders on before making a quick pass to the opposing more robust striker on the other side.

Isnt it @InLevyITrust - Martial under you is considered to potentially play next to Kane the way Lucas did in the match against us a forward.

How our fans view football is so 90's italia.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

It's possible but it's not how I see it. I don't really want to get into arguing what was what.

My point is these are easy narratives to peddle once a player falls out of favour. 'Oh he doesn't work hard enough, he doesn't want it enough, he doesn't have the mentality to be here.' These ideas don't require much thought at all and once enough people start saying it, they become accepted as fact.

The only true way to judge these things is when the player is given the chances to prove it on the pitch.

Exactly - and players that Jose has historically deemed not to be in his squad are eventually whispered to the media as being Lazy or mentally incapable. This usually happens too much to the point where he targets the wrong player like Hazard, Pogba who maybe deemed mentally too up in themselves - before it comes coming back at Jose. That's why I love seeing him scared and crying in front of the media - because I believe in Karma.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Berbatov did track back as much as you'd expect of most strikers. That was a lazy media stereotype because he looked languid and didn't go sprinting back to his own box like Rooney and Tevez did. He was actually great at clearing corners too if I remember right.

Martial does actually track back too. For me the issue is when we have the ball he just stands looking for it to feet, the laziness is the movement off the ball and seemingly not having worked on this in the years he's been here. He just doesn't look alert or interested in anything other than ball to feet.

Sanchez used to have good movement when he was at Arsenal but is looking like a steaming pile of shit. May be we don't have creative playmakers who pick out incisive passes? Our entire build up play is passing it out wide for the wingers to take it forward, the wingers are also pretty deep inside our territory as they are expected to help fullbacks when we don't have the ball, how can they be expected to track back way deep and also move free when we have the ball? Either we have to press higher up the pitch or make lightning quick breaks, we do neither. That is the root of the problem, even if we get Salah and play him on the right, his movement would be very poor compared to his at Liverpool.

 

[Art Vandelay]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ys-angry-Jose-Mourinho-sold-Kevin-Bruyne.html

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...urinho-romelu-lukaku-transfer-chelsea-everton

Just cant be bothered with you guys - the manager simply cannot do anything wrong. You said it perfectly right by the way - De Bryune, Salah, mata and Lukaku were sold because they didn't fit in with his plans - however the way Jose would egg them off as outsiders of the club is by questioning their mentality. Seen it for far too long and watched it happen with Martial.

He was never in Jose's plans so ultimately got pushed over for having a poor mentality.

How people can't see through Jose's words and actions are just beyond me. People acting like this third season syndrome is the first time it has happened to. Shaw has had a proper pre-season and recovery time to try harder at LB; more often than not he has actually been given a chance this time playing in a position he knows he is the best in.

Give Jose all the positives you want -
i'm not having any of it. The same goes for Lingard; who he started as RM and was sh*te - ran out of AM's and found at that Lingard is much more likely to perform at the centre of attacking midfield. What a surprise. Give players chances, give players the capability to perform in their best roles enabling to get the best out of them - you will have ' hard work' show off which is just Jose's damn word for good, goal scoring performances.

You don't come across as having an agenda against the manager at all... Did you even read those articles? Mourinho sold Lukaku because Lukaku wanted to be first choice and he wouldn't have been at Chelsea, they got a good bid and it helped them meet FFP. The other one a scout thought De Bruyne was a good player and didn't want him sold, Mourinho told him De Bruyne didn't want to train under him and sold him so he could play. Years later he went to a paper to sell his story about how right he was. How exactly do either of those meet your criteria? You're inventing Jose's words and actions all on your own.

You realise you're painting anyone who isn't agreeing with you into one corner to fit your narrative? "You guys..." I criticise the manager, I think he's got plenty wrong. However he gave Martial chances and from those chances Martial currently doesn't deserve to be starting.

LVG played Lingard as a wingback/fullback. Lingard played on the left while on loan. Lingard hadn't nailed down a position, he got chances in a couple of positions until he found one that suited him. Oh dear how terrible the manager was for not binning him immediately when he was shit on the right. You're needlessly spinning everything as a negative.

Shaw played leftback. He's had three games this season, two as a leftback, one as a left wingback. He's played fairly well in them all. At no point has he been played in any other position. What position did he play that he didn't know he was best in? You're again inventing positions for players in order to lay every bit of blame at the managers door and pretend there's no issues with Martial.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Sanchez used to have good movement when he was at Arsenal but is looking like a steaming pile of shit. May be we don't have creative playmakers who pick out incisive passes? Our entire build up play is passing it out wide for the wingers to take it forward, the wingers are also pretty deep inside our territory as they are expected to help fullbacks when we don't have the ball, how can they be expected to track back way deep and also move free when we have the ball? Either we have to press higher up the pitch or make lightning quick breaks, we do neither. That is the root of the problem, even if we get Salah and play him on the right, his movement would be very poor compared to his at Liverpool.

Sanchez also used to be able to sprint and dribble while he was at Arsenal. I suspect we've been sold a steaming pile of shit, mate. He's dropping into midfield, turning up on the inside right channel a lot for some reason and generally doing a whole lot of not much. I wouldn't use him as a barometer for judging anyone at the minute. Although in general I do think you have a point overall.

Yet this is something that I noticed with Martial back in the LVG days too. It's extra frustrating because on the rare ocassions he does do it and does get it right he looks like he could be devastating.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

@Art Vandelay

No mate - I don't just have an agenda; I absolutely hate every God damn inch of Jose Mourinho - if I could get a tattoo of my hatred of him I would have it on my forehead. I hate his ambition to put short term success over anything else & I hate the way he manipulates the media to his own advantages - it's great when things are all rosey but he spoon turns the club in to a damn media circus.

Great for a club like Chelsea who sit under shadows for ages - can't stand it here.

I've said it before if you scroll up how I believe Martial's role or at least - the way to get the best out of him is play him off the striker the way Ali or more recently Lucas plays for spurs. We have to utilize his ability to drop deep and be involved in play before initiating certain attacks by taking people on than complain about him being crazy because he hadn't realised the ball was damn coming over him and over the fullback after it flicked off Lukaku's for head.

Shaw is doing good because he is having a a pre season & having game time now. You require that for a chance but you also need to make sure he is playing in the right position & also that a player like Sanchez doesn't come in when you are in top form you have been for ages just to damn rot up the place of pure favouritism. Stinks.

Anyway I can't be bother to talk about Jose - just don't undermine my hatred for Jose. It's the biggest on this forum & i have been waiting - analysing his every mistake from day one. 81 on his second season - a traditional title winning team then move on to the losing of the dressing room.

Football is really not that complicated.

 

[haram]

No mate - I don't just have an agenda; I absolutely hate every God damn inch of Jose Mourinho - if I could get a tattoo of my hatred of him I would have it on my forehead. I hate his ambition to put short term success over anything else & I hate the way he manipulates the media to his own advantages - it's great when things are all rosey but he spoon turns the club in to a damn media circus.

Great for a club like Chelsea who sit under shadows for ages - can't stand it here.

I've said it before if you scroll up how I believe Martial's role or at least - the way to get the best out of him is play him off the striker the way Ali or more recently Lucas plays for spurs. We have to utilize his ability to drop deep and be involved in play before initiating certain attacks by taking people on than complain about him being crazy because he hadn't realised the ball was damn coming over him and over the fullback after it flicked off Lukaku's for head.

Shaw is doing good because he is having a a pre season & having game time now. You require that for a chance but you also need to make sure he is playing in the right position & also that a player like Sanchez doesn't come in when you are in top form you have been for ages just to damn rot up the place of pure favouritism. Stinks.

Anyway I can't be bother to talk about Jose - just don't undermine my hatred for Jose. It's the biggest on this forum & i have been waiting - analysing his every mistake from day one. 81 on his second season - a traditional title winning team then move on to the losing of the dressing room.

Football is really not that complicated.

 

[TheReligion]

BBC reporting the same.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Sanchez also used to be able to sprint and dribble while he was at Arsenal. I suspect we've been sold a steaming pile of shit, mate. He's dropping into midfield, turning up on the inside right channel a lot for some reason and generally doing a whole lot of not much. I wouldn't use him as a barometer for judging anyone at the minute. Although in general I do think you have a point overall.

Yet this is something that I noticed with Martial back in the LVG days too. It's extra frustrating because on the rare ocassions he does do it and does get it right he looks like he could be devastating.

Don't think Sanchez has suddenly lost his pace or his dribbling, the only difference is that at Arsenal due to their high line, he used to stay near the opposition box and terrorized the defenders with his pace and movement, here he is again expected to carry the ball from midfield to their box and then create chances too, that is why he is struggling so much, while he does have the stamina to keep running up and down the wings, he doesn't have the ability to maintain pace over a longer distance.

I'm not saying Martial has been faultless, he does lack movement off the ball but in the left wing, there is only so much he can do, he is expected to maintain width and he played predominantly with Young who doesn't overlap at all due to him being right footed and again Martial being right footed cannot cross properly either, despite all these, he performed quite well until Sanchez turned up.

 

[Art Vandelay]

@Art Vandelay

No mate - I don't just have an agenda; I absolutely hate every God damn inch of Jose Mourinho - if I could get a tattoo of my hatred of him I would have it on my forehead. I hate his ambition to put short term success over anything else & I hate the way he manipulates the media to his own advantages - it's great when things are all rosey but he spoon turns the club in to a damn media circus.

Great for a club like Chelsea who sit under shadows for ages - can't stand it here.

I've said it before if you scroll up how I believe Martial's role or at least - the way to get the best out of him is play him off the striker the way Ali or more recently Lucas plays for spurs. We have to utilize his ability to drop deep and be involved in play before initiating certain attacks by taking people on than complain about him being crazy because he hadn't realised the ball was damn coming over him and over the fullback after it flicked off Lukaku's for head.

Shaw is doing good because he is having a a pre season & having game time now. You require that for a chance but you also need to make sure he is playing in the right position & also that a player like Sanchez doesn't come in when you are in top form you have been for ages just to damn rot up the place of pure favouritism. Stinks.

Anyway I can't be bother to talk about Jose - just don't undermine my hatred for Jose. It's the biggest on this forum & i have been waiting - analysing his every mistake from day one. 81 on his second season - a traditional title winning team then move on to the losing of the dressing room.

Football is really not that complicated.

Those first and last paragraphs were full on Dennis Reynolds. Well played.

While I can't agree with some of your sentiments and the idea that Martial will improve if played in an even more congested area, I do admire your dedication to hatred.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Don't think Sanchez has suddenly lost his pace or his dribbling, the only difference is that at Arsenal due to their high line, he used to stay near the opposition box and terrorized the defenders with his pace and movement, here he is again expected to carry the ball from midfield to their box and then create chances too, that is why he is struggling so much, while he does have the stamina to keep running up and down the wings, he doesn't have the ability to maintain pace over a longer distance.

I'm not saying Martial has been faultless, he does lack movement off the ball but in the left wing, there is only so much he can do, he is expected to maintain width and he played predominantly with Young who doesn't overlap at all due to him being right footed and again Martial being right footed cannot cross properly either, despite all these, he performed quite well until Sanchez turned up.

We've gone off topic, but even when Sanchez was playing well in pre-season and playing higher up the pitch linking with Mata he didn't seem to be as quick and he was getting brushed off the ball a lot when taking players on. He just doesn't look the player he was, hopefully that will change soon though.

 

[King Kana]

Rich man’s Ben Arfa.

 

[JohnnyKills]

Imagine we get a picture of Martial smiling alongside Jose while signing a new long term contract, wouldn’t that be a sight? Most of you would still fight each other for some different reason.

Would be funny if the picture shows Martial smiling and Mourinho slumped forward alongside him, head in hands.

Or we get Martial and Woodward, holding a clock with Mourinho's face on it.

 

[SteveW]

Would be funny if the picture shows Martial smiling and Mourinho slumped forward alongside him, head in hands.

Or we get Martial and Woodward, holding a clock with Mourinho's face on it.

That would be great tbf

 

[Kostov]

Would be funny if the picture shows Martial smiling and Mourinho slumped forward alongside him, head in hands.

Or we get Martial and Woodward, holding a clock with Mourinho's face on it.

Naah, piss off. I like Jose, I want them to kiss and make up

 

[TsuWave]

 

[Infra-red]

Martial has scored fewer goals in the last 8 months than Chris Smalling.

Attitude.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

I'm not entirely the underlying issue with Martial, he can be easily perceived as not caring due to his personality and body language on the pitch, however he has always been acting like that even in his first season at United.

I hope he will do a Shaw this season but Sanchez is unlikely to be displaced unless Jose changes his formation and tactics

I'm not talking about his body language, it's more his lack of running, work-rate and movement. It just doesn't feel like he's giving his all. I just find it hard to get behind a player like that.

 

[TsuWave]

Martial has scored fewer goals in the last 8 months than Chris Smalling.

Attitude.

what's that say about sanchez, the starter, and the guy he has been dropped for and supposedly in competition for a place with?

 

[Cassidy]

I’m not pro Mourinho in the slightest but Martial has been very poor. If he was at another club playing the half arsed way he is, I wouldn’t want to sign a player with that mentality no matter how good he is.

Even if the manager isn’t treating him fairly he should be giving his all on the pitch, absolutely no excuse for it.

Luke Shaw in the last few weeks is the prime example of that. Was in a similar situation to Martial, both dropped from their respected national teams in what were successful World Cup campaigns, one is showing fight, the other doesn’t seem as if he cares.

Whilst Im not absolving Martial. Wasn’t the same said about Shaw last 2 seasons?

 

[Infra-red]

what's that say about sanchez, the starter, and the guy he has been dropped for and supposedly in competition for a place with?

Sanchez has been shite. I don't think anyone would argue otherwise. So has Martial. Our toothless attack is one of the (many) reasons why we're likely to be, at best, scrapping for a 4th place finish this season.

 

[Mercurial]

Not his biggest fan, but if he signs and become good on his talent it's a win win for everyone! If not, he will retain the reselling value.

 

[BigBebe]

@Art Vandelay

No mate - I don't just have an agenda; I absolutely hate every God damn inch of Jose Mourinho - if I could get a tattoo of my hatred of him I would have it on my forehead. I hate his ambition to put short term success over anything else & I hate the way he manipulates the media to his own advantages - it's great when things are all rosey but he soon turns the club in to a damn media circus.

Lovin' it.

 

[izec]

hey Raees

I dont know if you realised it, but half the forum wants him gone. Justice for Raees

 

[RedDevil@84]

I dont know if you realised it, but half the forum wants him gone. Justice for Raees

Who Raees? That would be harsh.
I see Raees post. See the length and don't read it. I read if he writes a short paragraph though.

 

[RedDevil@84]

So if Martial improves after signing new contract, does that mean he has knuckled down and started putting the hard work or that he was not in it before because he was fishing for a salary hike

 

[Ramshock]

I dont know if you realised it, but half the forum wants him gone. Justice for Raees

I realised that a year ago because half the forum are predictably impatient cnuts.

 

[Canagel]

Martial has scored fewer goals in the last 8 months than Chris Smalling.

Attitude.

Martial hasn't even played a full 90 minutes in that period. I'm pretty sure. 20 minutes or 15 minutes here and there isn't going to build any momentum.

 

[Damien]

What is it with this thread getting pages and pages of posts when he doesn't play? Discuss the contract situation here: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/pa-martial-offered-new-long-term-contract.441225/

I'll reopen this thread if he does play again.

 

[Damien]

Now he's played, the thread is reopen. Feel free to continue moaning about his performances - just don't use this for nonsense offtopic crap.

 

[el3mel]

Honestly doesn't look like he cares much about the team anymore.

Think he's off mentally at least.

Will still play loads as long as he's here though.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Today wasn't a great day for him to come on. We basically stopped attacking after halftime.

Not to imply he doesn't annoy the heck out of me of course.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Waste of space.

Note to Woodward, this is what happens when you publicly back an underperforming player, ya moron.