The whole cult thing exitsts in a lot of places on the Caf. I get pelters for trying to counter it.
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I mean no offence but this kind of thinking is pretty naive.
You know with Martial it's been like this with people, the point about his marginalisation get brought up then other refute that by saying it's only been x number of games, or it's just pre season but in reality as the time goes on nothing changes much for Martial and hardly get to play anyways.
The point about him already not playing(not starting enough) in pre season was rightly brought up but people dismissed it as only pre season to then be here more than 8 games into the season and he's hardly been played.
We can all pretend it's fine and patience is the key because Mourinho is supposedly easing him back or all those theories but most of us know that's not the case and the reason for his lack of playing time(especially in the league) is pretty simple and obvious.
Then he definitely should have left.
Bottom line is if Martial starts next game or whenever he does... if he shows anything close to that Burton performance - he's gonna secure that first team spot. Rashford is not playing that well and it is only his work rate keeping him in, so it isn't that high a hurdle for Martial to reach if he wants the LW spot regularly.
Objectively speaking I do think Martial should have the LW spot, but we have to accept the situation for what it is and that is Jose won't trust Martial until he forces Joses hands and when he did hand Martial a start he was poor whereas with Rashford we are winning games even if he himself has been poor. So if it ain't broke don't fix it.. as results are going our way at the moment. Performances have been sketchy though and there will come a moment when the luck runs out and it will be apparent the team needs something new in attack.
That is when Martial gets his opportunity and he will need to grab it with both hands - I expect him to as well as some of the stuff I saw from him last game was the first time I've seen him not only match the form of his first season but surpass it in terms of technical skill, football IQ - there was genuine progress on display.
Before we write off his chances completely - it's a long season, anything can happen and Martial will definitely get the opportunity to nail that spot. I don't think Rashford is that good to consistently keep that berth all season.
Objectively speaking I do think Martial should have the LW spot, but we have to accept the situation for what it is and that is Jose won't trust Martial until he forces Joses hands and when he did hand Martial a start he was poor whereas with Rashford we are winning games even if he himself has been poor. So if it ain't broke don't fix it.. as results are going our way at the moment. Performances have been sketchy though and there will come a moment when the luck runs out and it will be apparent the team needs something new in attack.
That is when Martial gets his opportunity and he will need to grab it with both hands - I expect him to as well as some of the stuff I saw from him last game was the first time I've seen him not only match the form of his first season but surpass it in terms of technical skill, football IQ - there was genuine progress on display.
Before we write off his chances completely - it's a long season, anything can happen and Martial will definitely get the opportunity to nail that spot. I don't think Rashford is that good to consistently keep that berth all season.
Remember people were moaning about Rashford not getting chance last season when he didn't start first 4 or 5 league games, then everything changed. Mkhitaryan wasn't regular at the start of last season, later he played in so many games and this season he is key player for Jose.
Likewise Martial has a very good chance to force his way into the side this season. I guess Martial will start against CSKA, Rashford will start against Palace.
Hopefully both starts together with Rashford as RW and Martial as LW. It's about time to try it out.
Martial FC FTW.
Nowhere near being apt.
It's Burton though. Memphis looked out of this world in some games vs poor opposition. Martial is a top talent but he needs to be the main man to put in quality performances week in week out. This can't happen now.
When we're winning without him and people are still complaining, it's a problem
Exactly, so he has to show that the progress I saw was genuine and can also be demonstrated against better quality of opposition.
Same as how Valencia was a swashbuckling winger before being turned to a right back, if I said Valencia is a specialist right back in relation to young (who just started playing there recently) I bet you'd bring up his past as a winger eh?
While we're at it why don't we swap lukaku and rashford since rashfors has performed even better in the CF role, we have a lot of games to go round don't we?
And rashford finished the season strongly in the CF position but is now being shoehorned into LW 'cause he performed well in another role, how's that fair?
Do I hope that it changes over the coming months? Yes but if last season where martial put in MoM performances and being dropped in the next, the preseason games where he started only once and the supercup game where we had an unused sub while chasing a game but didn't see the back of martial's head is anything to go by then I'm afraid I don't have much faith in mourinho
Who said Valencia is considered a specialized RB ? He's a RW who got turned to RB because of him getting older and losing some pace, same situation for Young.
Martial is better than Rashford on left flank in 1 vs 1 situations but Rashford is better in his movements. Both aren't considered a specialized LW but they're doing fine there. Both have flaws that's considered advantages for the other. None of them is a complete article in this position.
Edit: I forget to ask when did Rashford end the season strongly as a CF ? Since Zlatan injury he played as a striker for a month and scored 3 goals one of them was from a free kick. He doesn't have the finishing nor the ability to hold up play a striker in Mourinho system must do. His future here is on the left forward only.
People laugh at the Rawk and Bluemoon threads. Why bother going there when we have threads like this within Redcafe itself ? Bunch of drama queens.
Yes, bunch of drama queens - post this again when a talent like Martial leaves Utd and becomes a world beater somewhere else.
Also, remember those drama queens who were crying out for Pogba's inclusion when Fergie was playing Rafael and Fabio in the middle?
It wasn't just the Liverpool game though. He scored four in his first four games. Was named player of the month for both United and the Premier League.
So he was doing that before there was any conscious effort to "build the team around him."
You're doing him a massive disservice and watering down the achievement of his first season here.
Herd mentality in play. People will go to extreme lengths to justify the manager's decisions so if we have to invent facts so as to make it seem like Martial was never a good player then so be it. The fact is under Mourinho the boy will never have a fair fighting chance so this season is waste for him.
Yes, the Southampton away game soon after Liverpool was infact more impressive as a complete #9 performance. Holding the ball up and finishing when given a chance.
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Yeah he was excellent in that game. He came in as an unknown quantity. There was no gameplan to play through him, to structure tactics around him. Yet he was still our best player. He can thrive whatever the team or circumstances because of his talent.
If we did play through him as the season wore on that's because he was our best attacker. That's generally what happens, you get the ball to your best player, it's a credit to him. Yet somehow a few have decided to make that a negative. Baffling stuff.
I'm really not - I haven't downplayed anything, I've already said he was great that season. I just gave reasoning as to why. Like I said, under LVG we played football that was ideal for his play style and for the majority of that season (at least before Rashford broke into the team), everything we were doing was going through him and he was our one shining light. That doesn't make his feats any less amazing, but it does give some perspective as to why he might of struggled last season.
Why do you think that was?
Again, he was performing right from the get go. Before there was any plan to structure the team around him. Remembering LVG's comments when Martial arrived I don't think there was any intention to start him regularly, never mind make him the main man.
His performances forced the manager and team to make him the focal point.
I expect Martial to start against Palace at home. I think realistically it's probably the right decision by Jose to play Rashford in the tougher away games but I think Martial definitely deserves a start soon
Not sure why. Both great talents who aren't being given a chance.
Oh one is an attacking player so no then.
Don't know about all this fanboy stuff being thrown around. I'm not even a major fan of the guy but he's one of the few genuinely talented players we have and to watch that sitting on the bench for English hardwork is a bit frustrating.
Fabio didn't play in the middle. If you're going to go for realism don't use hyperbole. There was one game when Pogba was showing a complete lack of desire and form in the reserves, where Ferguson (probably the greatest manager in the history of the British game) played Park and Raphael during an injury crisis.
Martial not playing yesterday wouldn't have been my choice. I personally think he could have made a difference... but I also feel that Rashford did a great job of getting back and helping his fullback... so I can't criticise him too much. I also see the tactical shifts that Herrera and Smalling were sent on to bring. If Martial was going to come on for anyone yesterday, it was probably going to be Lukaku. If we had lost, or even lost points, he'd probably feel differently, but as things stand... he's getting praised in the media, praised online, he's starting in the Champions League, and making a phenomenal impact off the bench in the Premier League. That'll be noticed in France.
The flip side is, we weren't playing well yesterday as a team, we weren't clicking. If we had thrown him in we could jolt his growing confidence, and we all know he's a confidence player. Give him some time to build that up, and identifying as a player who can change any game, and we'll have one hell of a player.
You yourself said it - it's because he was very good and he earnt that priveledge that season.
I'm not arguing he wasn't performing from the get go, but I've already explained that the tactics suited him and starting well is a different beast to maintaining that form.
Martial surprised us all with his performances but as the season went on he became the focal point of our attack and it was only until Rashford came into the fold that he took some of the burden off him.
Right so having plenty of possession suited him. Agree on that but I'd argue that's the case for all wingers. They can't do much if you don't have the ball.
This thing about him being good because team was built around him. Given it's now been demonstrated he was really good from his first kick can we put that one to bed?
We have played, what, 6 games in the PL now? Martial will get plenty of chances this season. The fixtures will pile up and every player in the squad will be starting at some point.
The way people are acting is as if we are almost through with the season and Martial hasn't started yet. If this isn't overreacting, I don't know what is. Martial will start the Moscow game.
You've seen how Mourinho picks a team. It doesn't matter how many games there are, he'll nearly always pick the players he likes best. Fatigue and rest come second.
The kid has more half of his 16-17 goals and assists. The guy is probably on top of the world. He'll get his run in the EPL
As expected people losing their shit because Mourinho didn't sub him on yesterday and repeating the same opinions we heard in August. He doesn't rate him, he doesn't have a future here, he'll be sold.
Martial is competing with Rashford as our LW and Rashford has been producing on a regular basis for us this season. I was one of those who wanted Martial to be rewarded with a start vs Leicester in place of Rashford (after scoring in first 2 games) and he was, Rashford came off the bench to open the scoring and since then he has been scoring goals for club and country. Next match away at Stoke he scored again but was benched for Martial in our first CL game. Had a subpar game v Everton but in midweek he scored 2 goals and got an assist in 60 mins of action. If he was performing poorly and still playing week in week out instead of Martial I'd be concerned but that is not the case.
I don't think he had a good game yesterday but it was clear why he was playing there, for those who haven't watched Saints this season they have struggled for goals. They can't create anything through the middle and search for their attacking fullbacks to create some opportunities from out wide. Cedric is a key player for them and Rashford's tenacity was needed considering we were also playing a ex-winger turned fullback in Ashley Young.
There are legit concerns in this thread, an attacking player should be judged only on his attacking contribution but our manager is Mourinho. He ripped even Hazard to shreds for not pulling his weight, why is it such a huge surprise to so many of you he prefers a hard working player instead of a more technical and better one? His preference for Oscar over de Bruyne didn't tell you anything? They are competing for same place and Rashford is producing on a regular basis (just like Martial) but he offers workrate which Mourinho craves. It is what it is, something which we all have to come to terms with.
Martial is competing with Rashford as our LW and Rashford has been producing on a regular basis for us this season. I was one of those who wanted Martial to be rewarded with a start vs Leicester in place of Rashford (after scoring in first 2 games) and he was, Rashford came off the bench to open the scoring and since then he has been scoring goals for club and country. Next match away at Stoke he scored again but was benched for Martial in our first CL game. Had a subpar game v Everton but in midweek he scored 2 goals and got an assist in 60 mins of action. If he was performing poorly and still playing week in week out instead of Martial I'd be concerned but that is not the case.
I don't think he had a good game yesterday but it was clear why he was playing there, for those who haven't watched Saints this season they have struggled for goals. They can't create anything through the middle and search for their attacking fullbacks to create some opportunities from out wide. Cedric is a key player for them and Rashford's tenacity was needed considering we were also playing a ex-winger turned fullback in Ashley Young.
There are legit concerns in this thread, an attacking player should be judged only on his attacking contribution but our manager is Mourinho. He ripped even Hazard to shreds for not pulling his weight, why is it such a huge surprise to so many of you he prefers a hard working player instead of a more technical and better one? His preference for Oscar over de Bruyne didn't tell you anything? They are competing for same place and Rashford is producing on a regular basis (just like Martial) but he offers workrate which Mourinho craves. It is what it is, something which we all have to come to terms with.
Where's he gonna go? Martial is young and needs to make himself undroppable; then other big teams will want to offer him a first team place, not now.
Pogba?
We're gonna lose Martial to Juventus? Not likely. PSG, Real Madrid, Barcelona wouldn't buy him and play him in the first team. We won't sell him to an English club. Bayern Munich is the only maybe destination.
I think he's changed a bit in that regard. Almost all of our squad is getting playtime. He would have brought Martial on yesterday too, had it not been for that second half performance from us. He said so himself.
He's gone out if his way to praise Martial and mentioned that he has been impressed by his change in attitude.
Was I annoyed that Martial didn't play yesterday? Yes. Am I worried? No.
He is NOT being benched for 'English hardwork'. Rashford is a very talented forward in his own right. People need to stop spouting rubbish like this. Mourinho isn't picking Rashford based on the fact he defends better than Martial.
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You said Martial needs to prove himself before other big teams come in for him. I'm just pointing out Pogba barely played and Juve signed him.
It's not unfathomable that a big team out there might want to sign Martial. I dont think there's any imminent threat of that but depending how the situation unfolds it could happen.
Stoke was very tired performance, players struggling after the international games. We had fresh, equally capable players on the bench. It's a very recent example of Mourinho sticking with players he likes no matter how many games they've played.
Martial will of course get games but enough to match up with his ability? I'm not so sure.
This thread is just out of control with the labelling.. There are people asking if he moved to Juventus, then would those wanting him to play now will shift their club allegiance ffs..
While I'm no fanboy of Martial, i would prefer him to start at the moment.. He is definitely playing better than Rashford has been,especially after Rashford's performance against Everton.. His compusure in the final third is far better than Rashford as of this moment.. While I understand Jose wants to use Rashfords work ethic',Martial atleast needs to come on by the 60 mins marks..
That said he is going to start against CSKA..
While I'm no fanboy of Martial, i would prefer him to start at the moment.. He is definitely playing better than Rashford has been,especially after Rashford's performance against Everton.. His compusure in the final third is far better than Rashford as of this moment.. While I understand Jose wants to use Rashfords work ethic',Martial atleast needs to come on by the 60 mins marks..
That said he is going to start against CSKA..
The only thing I hear that rashford has over martial is the notoriously vague concept "movement" and defending which shouldn't even be a parameter in judging their roles for the left wing role
Martial is better attacking wise whilst rashford is better defensively and that aspect of play would not be so highlighted if he could do an attacker's primary duty which is driving into the oppositions box as well as martial can
Rashford is quicker. Rashford is more explosive. Better with the dead ball. Better work ethic. Better off the ball runs and movement. Martial is the better dribbler and finisher. That does not make him the better attacker and certainly does not make him a better fit for the LW/LF role.
Mourinho has seen Martial play last season. Seen him in training. After all this people still want to make out that Rashford starts ahead of Martial because he is simply 'better defensively'. It's bullshit mate. Not only did Rashford score the opener against Leicester when they were both on the pitch, but midweek against Burton, Rashford scored twice and assisted another in his 60 minutes anyway.
Still we get this crap about Martial being the better attacker. Its horse shit. For the record, Rashford absolutely can drive into the opposition box. All this revisionist shite as if Martial hasn't had games where his favoured movement with the ball at his feet dancing inside has not come off and he has been poor. As time goes on people are trying to downplay Rashford's attacking contribution and over hyping Martial's. Even after us being top of the league. It's ludicrous.
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