Mkhitaryan wasn't playing as well as Martial though and the idea was to ease Mkhi into the PL.
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I didn't say anything about their defending and turning Rashford to a " defensive winger" is gonna be a myth here that I don't want to happen. Rashford is very good going forward and his tracking back is as any pacey winger. Martial has a good tracking back as well. Rashford isn't a defensive winger just because of one game so this myth should die.
However, the movement part is obvious imo and I think I'm the first one who pointed to it in this thread. Without any tactical explanation, Rashford is always noticeable on the field even in his off days while Martial has been said to be disinterested or invisible in some moments of the game. The reason of this is in their movement ( which is very important ability for Jose in his wingers ).
However, I have notuced Martial has been improving his movement this season much more than the previous season and that means Jose is working with him in the training.
So Rashford is being picked because he's a better left winger than Martial? Nah
I love Rashford up top and I'd play him there over Martial but he's just not got enough in his game to be a winger for me. Only reason he gets in ahead of Martial is the hardwork. He's looked drunk for the last two PL games and continues to play somehow.
He wasn't playing as well but this is the key point, he is trying to manage when and where he plays Martial to ensure as best he can that he does play well. I think this is quite obvious, it's not because he has an issue with him (he obvioudly did previously). It looks to me like he is trying to build him up.
Jose talked about doing the same thing with Mkhi when he decided to reintroduce him last season. 10-20 minutes in the league but then focusing on giving him 90 minutes in the cups. Then slowly bringing him into the PL games. He even said that bringing him on as a sub wasn't enough and he wanted to focus on giving him 90 minutes more. This is what he's doing now.
You're comparing Martials sotuation now with Mkhi's when he was dropped from the team, when you should be comparing it to when he was slowly brought back in. Martial has been through the rough part last season where he barely featured. Now it seems Jose is finally happy with his attitude and is actually bringing him back in.
I thin he clearly still has an issue with him. Mou is still always talking about his facial expressions and always provides a negative comment to go with a positive comment. Rashford on the other hand receives nothing but praise. This could be a test of Martials mentality as I do feel Mou questions his long term commitment.
Rashford doesn't have enough to his game, but Martial does? Are you kidding me?
He was poor against Everton, and ok against Southampton. He continues to play because he is better than Martial on the left. All of these cameo appearances from Martial when the game has opened up has seriously clouded everyone's judgement on him.
Rashford's even done the business for England this year! Apparantly he doesn't have enough to his game! Seriously.
Or, you know, his entire first season here.
The irony being the only person grumpier than Martial at OT is Jose.
System was different. The team was set up with him being the main man. This is a different United team. What happened to him last year?
The team wasn't set up with him being the main man, that's ridiculous.
Mourinho happened.
Personal problems at home clearly affected the then 20 year old. Hardly a shock, is it?
This seems to be how Jose operates. If a player is in the dog house then it's nothing but negativity. When they turn it round he will start to praise them but not go overboard too soon, probably to keep them on their toes. After a while, if the player keeps working hard, he drops his grudge and will actually defend the player if they don't do well. Notice how Mkhi has been terrible for a while but Jose doesn't mention it, he keeps playing him in an effort to play him into form.
Just from reading Jose's comments you can see he's thawing a bit now with Martial. His last comments about him were nothing but positive, no caveat about what he needs to keep doing. I actually feel like Jose is nearly there with Martial, just one or two good games with the right attitude and I'm certain he will be in the starting 11 for the league games. Let's just see, but hopefully Martial does the business and we can see if I'm right.
On the left wing? No Rashford doesn't for me. He can't dribble, he doesn't have the skills to beat his man other than with pace and his finishing isn't the best. I'm a huge fan of Rashford up top and was more than happy with Zlatan being out last season because it meant Rashford up top but I just don't like him on the wing. He's actually much better coming off the bench against tired legs if he's to play on the wing.
well saidDogshite Euro on home soil, no proper preseason, break up with long time girlfriend/mother of his child and then new manager/new system, increased expectation etc on top of that.
2nd season syndrome is common enough even with the same manager, system and personnel for seasoned veterans after a transfer. Why the need to cast aspersions on the quality of a 20 year old who had to dealt with a myriad of problems?
Some cant even deal with half of that.
Even more ironic is that if Jose is really questioning his long-term commitment, and keeps doing so, it's going to be a self-realized prophecy.
Also, if Martial doesn't make the world cup squad because of lack of minutes as opposed to lack of form, I don't see him staying at the club long-term. It's just no longer a good fit for him then, I hope it doesn't happen but I'd rather see Martial thrive in a team that works better for him than sulk on the sideline.
Yes, it's Mourinho's fault, nothing to do with the fact that Martial has shortcomings as a winger. The team was set up to get him away under Van Gaal. He was our outlet.
It's all Mourinho's fault
. We're top of the league, I hope more players perform badly because of him.Shit at the Euro's because of who? Doesn't fit into Mourinho's system because of who? It's on him. It's on his skill set. It's on his playing style. His off the ball movement and runs is not down to anyone but HIMSELF.
Martial is the one coming on against tired legs. Rashford is starting these games which have led us to the top of the league. The game Martial did start, Rashford came on and scored the winner against Leicester. His pace along with his movement is what makes him dangerous. Martial is the better dribbler yes, but Rashford has superior movement and makes better runs.
I think it's really ignorant and silly to say Martial was shit at the Euro when he couldn't have played more than 60 minutes grand total, 45 of those taking part of a half where the whole French team was terrible. It kind of shows the ridiculous bias some have against a kid who's easily one of the most talented player on the squad.
Rashford wasn't exactly pulling up trees last season either.
His Euro consisted of one half and a bit of football in an utterly forgettable collective French performance, and sitting on the bench watching his national team lost their chance of their first major title in 16 years. Because of him? He then went back to the club with no proper pre season and a messy personal life, and managed to be as productive in the league as his two competitor combined in a season most would agree that he was sub par.
You harp on and on about Rashford's better movement, well, the same better movement that saw him go 5 months without scoring in the league and managed a grand total of 1 assist. He ended the season strongly as a striker but was utterly forgettable playing on the wings. It happens. Young players struggle, but yeah, of course, it 'is not down to anyone but HIMSELF'.
They both suffered from the system we played last season. It was constructed to get the most out of Zlatan, with the wingers there primarily to provide width and serve the targetman. 2015/16 was much narrower in the final third and helped Martial.
Now that we have superior movement from Lukaku, I'm hopeful that both Rashford and Martial can start getting into the box once more. It's been tricky for them without a proper attacking leftback, but Young should (in theory) afford either one of them the freedom to cut inside. They've both been doing it in the last few minutes of games but need to now show it earlier on as well.
Are you trying to tell me his shortcomings with his movement off the ball is to do with anyone else but himself? He is great with the ball at his feet. He is a good dribbler driving at fullbacks. He needs to do MORE than that though.
Rashford is evolving as a player. All this time people barked on about Mourinho not trusting youth and here we are with him starting a 19 year old kid in every game and suddenly people want to doubt his judgement on the player? I really don't understand any of this, at all. Mourinho sees these guys day in day out. He knows what he wants from his forwards. He works with them on the training pitch every day.
Do you think he sits there and picks Rashford for banter? Rashford has started this season WELL. Martial has come on and scored against teams once the context of the game has CHANGED by those already on the pitch. The eleven that Mourinho has started to win us the game. The context of the game changes and teams open up. We end up scoring a bunch of goals at the end of the game. Do you not think that Mourinho has this all in mind when structuring his team and first eleven? He does not sit there and pick Rashford to start because 'he is good defensively'. He's there to help open the scoring and change he dynamic of the game. It's a lot more difficult to score at 0-0 than it is at 2-0 or 3-0 up. If Martial is so much the superior forward why does Mourinho keep picking Rashford to start? Why are we winning these games? Did Mourinho not give Martial the start against Leicester? Was it not 0-0 until Rashford came on and scored? Now tell me why Mourinho is wrong for starting Rashford ahead of Martial.
It was someone else who said he was shit. I didn't bring it up. If you want to talk about it, he wasn't good. Neither was he good last year. I have no biases against Martial. I am looking at it for what it is. If people are crying about him not playing over Rashford, who is clearly an integral part of the team, when we are top of the league I am going to have my say.
Martial is coming on against teams who have opened up, that's how he has got his goals. He started against Leicester, and came up blank, It was Rashford who came on and scored. This clamouring for Martial to start OVER Rashford is baffling. For people to then go and claim that is only because of Rashford's 'defensive' side which gets him in the team ahead of Martial is wrong. Rashford is a very talented forward in his own right. Yes I know you guys love Martial but crying about him not starting when Rashford has started as well as he has is laughable.
Right. The team has evolved slightly. Mourinho has said this himself. Lukaku works in a different way to Ibrahimovic. Matic works in a different way to Herrera. Mhki is in that number 10 role. Now from Mourinho's perspective you look at what you know of the players. In training, after analysing the games frrm last season, after pre season. Mourinho KNOWS how both Martial and Rashford operate. He is starting Rashford FOR A REASON. Like I have said, BOTH are very talented, Rashford is just better in that position for LW/LF. I am not here calling Martial a bad player because of last season. I am talking about his shortcomings.
I am actually tired and exhausted of defending Rashford. Both are talented. Rashford is just the better fit for now. We're playing well, we should enjoy it.
First, cut out the Caps Lock. It makes you appear like an immature prick.
Secondly. The notion of 'better movement' is one created purely to mean 'the kind of movement I want to see'. Rashford is the busier out of the two, and his runs down the channel are good, from a striker's perspective, but that doesn't mean it is superior to Martial. Martial's movements are geared towards his strength, which sees him moving into positions that he can utilise his dribbling effectively once he receives the ball to feet. He won't ever be the type who gets up and down the wing carrying the ball like your traditional wingers, but he will do his fair share pressing from the front or getting back to defend when out of possession. His movements are different, not inferior.
Rashford has started the season well, but Martial has been even better. The fact that you brought up the Leicester match to knock him is laughable given that he created several scoring chances in the first half including a penalty that Lukaku failed to convert, which is more than Rashford managed starting in over half of his 5 PL starts so far, but when Rashford can deliver a stinker like Everton, a performance like that when he did everything right aside from scoring himself means Martial is back to the bench the next game and that is precisely what 'Martial FC' as you lot would have it take issue with. And then, your point about us scoring late goals as a function of the way Mourinho sets up his team is even more comical. A manager would deliberately set out his team not to score early or put the game to bed early? Give me a break.
So Rashford also benefits from coming off the bench for Martial and vice-versa. I personally don't see Rashford having better performances so far this season, he's already had some stinkers compared to Martial, so I don't see why he is already over 300+ minutes up on him, especially when he benefits just as much from coming off the bench as Martial does. It's too early in the season for there to be that much of a disparity in minutes between the two. If you think 'who cares? We're winning right now', I understand it but I think it's looking at the small picture. I don't want a guy of Martial's talent to get discouraged or beaten down by performing and not being rewarded or treated like 95% of the rest of the squad.
I'm not really a fan of this whole Martial vs Rashford debate either to be honest, I wish there were some other names that could be a part of the rotation so we could see the two of them on the field at the same time but everybody else's bad form on the team has almost no impact on their status, so that's where we're at right now.
Also, my Euro comment is far from being solely targeted at you, there are plenty of people who have made that comment.
Rashford has come on in two games. One which was 0-0 and so the game hadn't really opened up yet. He scored to make it 1-0. The other was Basel. I'm not judging on what they can do when the game has opened up. Both are quick and talented, both capable of punishing teams who offer up space when trying to salvage something. What can the players do when the game is tighter, when you have to be cuter, more intelligent with your runs, link up and movement. That's when you need your best players. That's what games are like before we get the first goal. That's why I put heavy value on Mourinho picking Rashford to start ahead of Martial.
First, don't call me a prick. That's you now being a prick.
The notion of 'better movement', is that of better movement. Rashford makes better runs, has a better work rate in an attacking sense, makes more selfless runs, runs to work off Lukaku. Martial's strength is him running with the ball yes. I never doubted that at all.
I am not saying our manager is deliberately setting his team out to not score early. He sets out his team to win games. He sets them out to score. I was saying this to say that he does not pick Rashford because it is the 'more defensive option'. It is more difficult to score at 0-0. Why would he play a defensive player against teams that are sitting deep until we score a goal? Once the deadlock is broken we have counter attacking options which means we kill teams that open up. It's easier to score when teams open up. Rashford came on and scored against Basel as well.
To say Martial has been better than Rashford this season is quite frankly laughable.
People are also forgetting that he won the game for England in the international week. Very impressive start to the season from Rashford. Starting every week for a Jose Mourinho managed Manchester United team which is joint top, winning games for his national side.
I didn't call you a prick, glad that you took the advice on board.
Cristiano Ronaldo is the best player in the world. You don't see him 'makes more selfless runs, runs to work off Lukaku'. That is precisely the difference between the two youngsters that our fans often failed to grasp when discussing their strengths and weakness. Rashford is a willing worker and he has the higher top speed over a longer distace, which suits him to chase long balls or knocking it from the halfway line all the way to the corner flag, and he makes his movements accordingly. On the contrary, Martial thrives on beating players or dragging them out of position with that threat, so why would he makes the same kind of movements as Rashford? You think he's incapable of doing so if he's been coached from a young age to? His inclination which is born out of training and education is to make movements into space that can facilitate his superior ball skills. The whimsical notion of 'better movement' is thus just fans watching a player willing to run and think he has superior on the pitch movements, but you dont win a match by running your bollocks off.
He picks Rashford because Rashford is his first choice, every manager has his pets and the kid has been doing well enough so he doesnt need to make changes. And picking a team that doesn't concede first and foremost is, you know, kind of his modus operandi since, well, forever. We are still regularly struggling to score from open play so whatever he is trying at the moment doesn't seem to work that well, but top of the league 6 games in, hooray, let's keep everything as is. LvG managed the same feat too, in October.
He is statistically better, same number of assists, same amount of league goals and 1 less over all in less than half the minutes played and aesthetically better, so he has been better. People have eyes, you know? Quite telling against Burton when they both started and Rashford got 2 goals who was the MOTM by consensus.
I think the problem is we're seeing the same thing but not looking at it the same way. I think you overestimate the intelligence and impact of Rashford's runs. I also look at the situation of having a tight game where I'd rather have someone of Martial's talent who can penetrate and dribble past 2-3 players to either lay it off or shoot, maybe we get a rebound out of that for Lukaku and the game finally opens up. I don't think Rashford is the better option when the game is 0-0 and the defense is packed in, I'd rather have someone who can have a moment of genius as Martial has shown here and there in his tenure at the club, than someone who is running and working like a horse.
Whether the score is 0-0 or 3-0 for the team when Rashford comes on, he's still coming on against tired legs and that's to his benefit. I don't think Martial starting over Rashford means the end of the path to success, I just think it's a different way that has more potential to create winning situations than with Rashford.
Completely irrelevant to the club form. Martial has had a better season so far than Rashford as far as efficiency and impact, it's reflected on any metric or scoring you'll see on websites, including this very one (for whatever that's worth).
Yes. In fact, it was a big concern for him at Monaco too. His movement off the ball is frankly not good enough. An elite talent on the ball, but without it not so much. I remember reading he was working on it with his manager at Monaco as the manager acknowledged it wasn't good enough but then upon moving to United obviously they stopped working on it.
So he obviously knows about it being a weak point in his game, especially as it was being specifically worked on at Monaco and as it's a very important component of Jose's play. So I wouldn't be surprised to see it get much better with time.
It wasn't obvious in his time here under LVG, as players weren't expected to move as much, they were expected to understand zones and to be readily available for passes into feet from teammates. Under Jose, players are expected to switch positions, break at pace and attack spaces left by defenders. Completely different.
I think it is already better this season, but the main thrust of my argument stays the same. He has been focusing on the kind of movements that accentuate his on the ball ability from a young age. It's frankly hard to believe that coaches would fail to get him do those things if they have been training him on those aspects throughout his formative years. You have to assess the whole package, not just one specific aspect of his skillset that needs developing. I believe that he will get better at running off defenders but his primary movements will still be those that set him up to turn quickly and drive at goals and if the manager doesn't want his inside forward playing like that then we are fated to have the same conversation over and over again
Which is fair enough - I'm not saying Martial is a shite talent or saying he's poor. I'm as excited and eager to see his development as anyone else, he's an elite talent. I'm just trying to shed some light on why he isn't guaranteed playing time in this Jose team. People are so caught up with Martial, they forget that Rashford is no slouch either. He is an elite talent himself. The only difference is Rashford seems to have a better mentality, something Jose loves and sees as ideal for players who play in teams that win things and secondly he has very good movement off the ball. Along with Lukaku, Mata and Lingard, Rashford has some of the best movement in the game. It's a essential for a Jose team.
I would be happy to see either play, but this nonsense that Martial is on a completely different level to Rashford and 100% has to play is rubbish. Both are very good and both have their strengths and weaknesses.
I'm sure Martial knows what it is Jose expects from him and I'm sure he's working on improving those areas of his game. Jose doesn't dislike Martial and yes Martial is a 'Mourinho' player (whatever that even means, he's managed a plethora of different players in his career)
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This thread is fecking nuts!
I'd have loved to have seen this place during the treble winning season. We had 4 fully established strikers to keep happy, there would have been so many meltdowns.
I'd have loved to have seen this place during the treble winning season. We had 4 fully established strikers to keep happy, there would have been so many meltdowns.
We were playing with two and hierarchy was clearly established though. Cole and Yorke were our first duo, Sheringham and Solskjaer were substitutes. Neither really had an issue with that considering Teddy was well over 30 and Ole turned down Spurs to be super-sub here.
I'd love to know when rashford has had any sustainably good form coming from the wings 'cause most of his consistent good forms have come when starting at CF in his first season and at the end of last season IMO
To now say he is better in that position to someone who has played there at a high level over long stretches of time is quite baffling to say the least..
To now say he is better in that position to someone who has played there at a high level over long stretches of time is quite baffling to say the least..
"Better movement" is a bit far fetched. What does off the ball movement mean to you? It can mean defensive movement or offensive movement. Even in terms of offensive play, it can be separated into different types, depending on the type of the player and how it might facilitate him and his teammates.
Let us compare the movement of Rashford and Martial. Rashford is a kind of player who is blessed with very high speed, high acceleration, an average ball control and good work ethic. So, his defensive movement would be pretty good in terms of tracking the opposition runner. His offensive movement would constitute of attacking the space, running behind defenders in order to make full use of his abilities. Yes, he throws in some skills now and then, but it is mainly short and serves to get ahead of the defender, and once he is ahead, he is at full pelt and as direct as possible.
Martial possesses superb acceleration, high top speed( maybe a bit less then Rashford), elite close control and skills on the ball, average work ethic( recently shown significant improvement here). His movements are therefore developed in such a way so as to maximize his strength on the ball and his acceleration, which he uses to draw defenders towards him thus creating spaces for others and using his ball skills and controls to wriggle out of tight situations. So, why would want Martial to make runs like Rashford, considering they are different types of players? Why would Martial need to make more runs behind if he can consistently beat defenders? Also, once he is in the box, you can see him making runs behind because then he has to finish. Consider his goal against Burton Albion. The thoughball that Rashford provided was struck hard, and bar Mata and Martial, I don't think anybody in our squad would have been able to control that ball. Martial's control and carrying of that ball looked so effortless.
Pogba, Matic and Ander are different types of mids. Would you want Pogba to play more like Matic/ Ander instead of playing his natural game? Martial is much more consistent in his game than Rashford, and until Rashford proves his consistency, Martial should be the one starting games and not vice-versa. I Think Jose is also partly at fault for not being able to make use of Anthony's prodigal talents into his plans more frequently.
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Yeah pecking order might have been established, but it doesn't change people wanting that pecking order to be changed.
I don't think you will ever convince the @haram guy, I don't know why but it looks like he really dislikes Martial, any thing Martial does he will casually dismiss as being done against tiring players or some crap. My one problem with Martial whenever he plays is that he always seems to drift in and occupy central positions, we already have Lukaku and Miki in the central areas, by drifting in he needs to face even more defenders and tries to dribble out of trouble and ends up losing the ball or making a simple pass in the end. I'm not sure he is doing this based on Mourinho's instruction but I'd like him to play as a traditional winger, he will get much more chances to beat his marker.
Will start against CSKA, really needs to take this chance on Wednesday. Don’t think he did enough against Basel in our first Champions League game albeit was tremendous in the League Cup.
As long as he shows he’s a threat in a game he starts in, he’ll be in Jose’s good books.
As long as he shows he’s a threat in a game he starts in, he’ll be in Jose’s good books.
There are lots of reasons why Martial played better in his first season, ranging from the system being routed through him, to classic first/second season syndrome, to the bar rising in the Prem again over the last few years.
It certainly shouldn't be used as a dig at Jose, considering we've won the EL and are sitting top of the Prem, while playing better football even at our worst. Only a Martial FC fan would say such a thing.
It certainly shouldn't be used as a dig at Jose, considering we've won the EL and are sitting top of the Prem, while playing better football even at our worst. Only a Martial FC fan would say such a thing.
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