While I agree with your overall point re Martial has been hard done by and been offered much less leeway than some others in the squad I don't think you should put Lingard and Rashford in the same bucket. Lingard is just not good enough and will never be and people have to resort to ridiculous arguments to justify his selection (see above) but Rashford is genuinely a fantastic talent and is not just in the team because he can run. I'd prefer Martial to start because he's more productive right now but in terms of potential I don't think there's much between them. No reason why they both shouldn't play in fact.
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While I agree with your overall point re Martial has been hard done by and been offered much less leeway than some others in the squad I don't think you should put Lingard and Rashford in the same bucket. Lingard is just not good enough and will never be and people have to resort to ridiculous arguments to justify his selection (see above) but Rashford is genuinely a fantastic talent and is not just in the team because he can run. I'd prefer Martial to start because he's more productive right now but in terms of potential I don't think there's much between them. No reason why they both shouldn't play in fact.
Absolutely fantastic and balanced post. I agree with all of this.
We should descent to the low standard under SAF when people were ragingly debating Valencia vs Nani, I suggest.
Goal scoring talent: composure, technique, control... is just one of the talent, which Martial is superior than many. However, as I put it, we have a superior goal scorer in Lukaku which we need to build the team to play to his strength. The other less prolific goal scorers, assisters, however is more developed in different aspect of the game. Know to time off all run that confuse the marker & defense system is the talent in itself, which is underrated.
I gave you actual play examples for you to go check & understand how team play work, yet you seem to want to be objective. Sure we can agree to disagree. I'll give one more before I left.
http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/andres-iniesta-scored-assist-year/
Prime example, and there is no way Iniesta was any bad that season. Simply the game plan, the team was built differently to get the best out of the front line of Neymar & Suarez & Messi, that Iniesta played a different role which had less impact in him being the man getting the goal or assist. And of course, no way Inniesta was not allowed to come into potential assisting, scoring area of the pitch.
Learning is also a talent. Some players can't leave their comfortable zone however old they are. When they're younger, it's better to learn the good habit than letting the bad habit die hard. This problem Martial had is nothing new. It was a work in progress with Jadrim at Monaco which was interrupted with his transfer to us & LVG system shoehorn him than pushing him to keep progressing in filling out his lesser developed part of his game.
Edit: found the clip
Follow Lingard. See how his run occupy and defender & opened the patch for Micky pass. Micky & Rashford can claim credit for the 2 crucial jobs (which Martial is clearly capable of either), yet Lingard in this case had his contribution. Had he not make that run, the defender that got occupied could be in position where he could intercept the pass.
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I find the constant comparisons between the two quite awkward to be honest.
I really don't think there is much comparison between the two, Martial is the better player right now and has the higher ceiling. They're equally quick, but Martial is stronger, a far better dribbler and a more lethal finisher. Martial has ice in his veins, absolutely cold-blooded in front of goal whereas Rashford seems to always needs to steady himself and his finishing is very inconsistent.
I like Rashford a lot but I don't think his ceiling is as high as the likes of Martial/G.Jesus/Dembele/Mbappe etc. I feel like his ceiling is like a prime Sturridge (minus the injuries) which is still great, but Martial can become a Hazard/Robben level player and if he reaches his potential will become one of the most devastating forwards of his generation. Its almost baffling that people could consider Rashford the better player or prospect but there is a tendency to fawn over and overrate local players from the academy on here so it's understandable.
I like Rashford a lot but I don't think his ceiling is as high as the likes of Martial/G.Jesus/Dembele/Mbappe etc. I feel like his ceiling is like a prime Sturridge (minus the injuries) which is still great, but Martial can become a Hazard/Robben level player and if he reaches his potential will become one of the most devastating forwards of his generation. Its almost baffling that people could consider Rashford the better player or prospect but there is a tendency to fawn over and overrate local players from the academy on here so it's understandable.
That's the point ( the period when our attacking was dull, zombie football). Valencia, Young being non productive on paper they're still tactical productive.
Players coming of age despite not having not much playtime. There is a lot of training, work beside match day. Agree there is more than one way to skin a cat, but first of all make sure it is a cat (Zlatan is different type of player altogether). He was very good play maker for a forward which I believe LVG tried to weirdly turn himself to something else, while Van Basten gave a better advice. Jardim required Martial to improve the same aspect of his game like what we see right now.
You completely missed the point, didn't you? In no way, I am being stupid enough to suggest we have the front line like that Barcelona, or our support players doing similar level of work as Iniesta. I am trying to give example in regarding of tactic, where even not touching the ball / not assist the assister, can still contribute in productivity of the team.
I will repeat one again: we're trying to build a team to get the best of out Lukaku who with enough service can get 30 or more. Other players need definitely up their games for sure
The thing is you with post is you more than one being more suggestive than actually provide solid example. Sure Martial does that too, but compare to other, the contrast is clear how short he comes compare to other in term of off ball work.
Cruyff believed in the concept that footballer average 3 minutes on ball per game. So there are much more work to do off ball than with the ball. In other word, the basic of football, is positioning, movement, to work as a team, not fielding all the best on ball players with not enough sacrificial work, support.
Edit: there seems to be some misunderstanding about concept of hard working, & talent when using about Zlatan or Ronaldo... as example. By many account, they are hard worker from the beginning. For Zlatan case, it's about LVG trying to tweak his style of play, than specifically calling out his work rate/ ethnic. Ronaldo didn't just work his ass of with us. He was recalled by some accounts trying to catch up to Quaresma in term of techniques. Their natural talent is no question.
Players coming of age despite not having not much playtime. There is a lot of training, work beside match day. Agree there is more than one way to skin a cat, but first of all make sure it is a cat (Zlatan is different type of player altogether). He was very good play maker for a forward which I believe LVG tried to weirdly turn himself to something else, while Van Basten gave a better advice. Jardim required Martial to improve the same aspect of his game like what we see right now.
You completely missed the point, didn't you? In no way, I am being stupid enough to suggest we have the front line like that Barcelona, or our support players doing similar level of work as Iniesta. I am trying to give example in regarding of tactic, where even not touching the ball / not assist the assister, can still contribute in productivity of the team.
I will repeat one again: we're trying to build a team to get the best of out Lukaku who with enough service can get 30 or more. Other players need definitely up their games for sure
The thing is you with post is you more than one being more suggestive than actually provide solid example. Sure Martial does that too, but compare to other, the contrast is clear how short he comes compare to other in term of off ball work.
Cruyff believed in the concept that footballer average 3 minutes on ball per game. So there are much more work to do off ball than with the ball. In other word, the basic of football, is positioning, movement, to work as a team, not fielding all the best on ball players with not enough sacrificial work, support.
Edit: there seems to be some misunderstanding about concept of hard working, & talent when using about Zlatan or Ronaldo... as example. By many account, they are hard worker from the beginning. For Zlatan case, it's about LVG trying to tweak his style of play, than specifically calling out his work rate/ ethnic. Ronaldo didn't just work his ass of with us. He was recalled by some accounts trying to catch up to Quaresma in term of techniques. Their natural talent is no question.
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This is what annoys me the most. Mourinho complains about not having attackers chipping in enough goals and goes on about his past teams having goals coming from all sides. You have posters wanting Perisic or an attacker that would put in enough goals yet we have one but never played enough.
Martial in his first season at 19 has proven his productivity. He can score goals and assist, we'd seen it happen throughout an entire season consistently. Then you have Mourinho mismanaging him and harshly dropping him but even despite that he still ended up as our MOST POTENT attacking player beside our main striker.
So how on bloody earth do you play less prolific players in front of him then later complain about not having an ough goals or assists? You have a dangerous players in your rank and given a consistent run he'll deliver numbers, Heck even being the least favored he still produced more than all his other peers despite them being favored and given more leeways. How is this not unfair to the lad.
To justify such nonsense you then have people parrot on intangibles such as movements, hardwork etc. They can't back any arguments with numbers. Normally you'd simply say such attacking player is preferred because he delivers and he's more of a threat but that's not the case.
Our most threatening and dangerous player sit on the bench while the manager and fans complain about not having enough goals or threat going forward.
It's only here and recently that you hear people even entertain this argument about hardwork over true talent and attacking threat. Fickleness has become synonymous to this place, people easily got brainwashed and convinced that they should be preferring a Lingard or Rashford over a Martial, truly ridiculous.
Also these talks cripping in about Rashford having a higher ceiling, being as talented or having more in his locker, Jesus Christ some scary things happening on these boards. Have people gone blind, lost their eyesight and only parrot what they heard some random places?
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Rashford scored as many (in fact slightly more) goals per minute than Martial last season. If you only want to talk in numbers, then that justifies him being in the conversation with Martial. I don't think overall Rashford had a better season last year except in the context of age and experience level, but he did finish the season more strongly and that's what I think people most remember. Earlier on there was a lot of talk of Rashford being a disappointment or Mourinho being blamed for not giving him the right opportunities, just like with Martial.
Rashford's never had a season like Martial's first in the PL, but equally, that was two years ago and Martial hasn't progressed at all how we hoped since then whereas Rashford has. At the moment, it's difficult to say who will end up being the better player. Martial has better technique and composure, but Rashford has shown a better work ethic and willingness to adapt, and these are important attributes for a young player looking to improve.
Personally, I'd like Martial to get a run of starts to show us what he can do, but competition for places is tough right now. Can't blame Jose if he persists with Rashford after his performance against West Ham.
Right. That might be true. Still, Martial can also be considered ideal for that inverted striker kind of role you are talking about. At the moment they are both so similar, it is hard to choose one over the other. So, my feeling is Rashford is better at doing the winger things than Martial, and maybe that is why he is prefered.
Yes, fair reasoning. Martial did have an average season last year and most of us were expecting far more from him. Think we have a more stable midfield this year so things should improve. Also, feel that he will still be introduced as a sub for the coming matches till his performances reach some consistency. Just hope he gets more minutes. 10 minutes is far too less. (Also hope Andreas gets a chance, expecting great things from him as well, but that may be very difficult this year).
Martial had better umbels than Rashford last season. You can't purely talk about goals when Rashford was played as a striker from Zlatan injury till season end, of course he'd have more opportunity to score than a winger.
In fact Rashford went countless games as a Striker without scoring. Goals and assists combined Martial has more than him and Lingard combined. In fact when Rashford was played a winger his number were even worse yet despite that he kept on being played.
Rashford has seemingly improved because he played a lot, had many opportunities to correct his wrong and was afforded the freedom and platform to improve. In fact had he not improved at the tail end of the season after going through most of the season poor yet continually given chances than the concensus should have been he's hopeless.
Martial was not afforded such luxury. Even good performances didn't guarantee him game times and got dropped on the back of good performances. Put anyone in those situation and comparing from Martial first season then they'dof course stall.
You think Rashford would even be in the squad this season had he been treated similarly to Martial? Not even close.
Though despite these improvement Rasher is still isn't doing unfavored Martial numbers and hasn't come close to equating Martial first season.
All this bog down to is the unequal treatment they get. I wouldn't see them in their current situation had they been given a fair treatment. No way could Rashford displace Martial, it's only happening with Mourinho whow would rate even Lingard higher than Martial.
Jones: smile, smile
Such a good lad our Jonesy
Jones: smile, smile
Massive season for him. He needs to forget all that has gone before (who cares what shirt number you are?) and focus solely on the here and now. Work incredibly hard on and off the pitch, show demonstrable improvement in your game, learn from the mistakes and listen to the manager, even if you don't agree with him.....make him trust you and become unable to drop you. He has the talent and the ability to move up a tier, be what Hazard is to Chelsea, what Sanchez is to Arsenal, De Bruyne to City. He needs to ask himself....Do you want to be a talisman for Manchester United? Yes or no.
Take that 15-20 minute cameo and build on it, gain confidence from it.
And yeah....smile ffs. Enjoy yourself out there. Enjoy being a fabulous young footballer.
Take that 15-20 minute cameo and build on it, gain confidence from it.
And yeah....smile ffs. Enjoy yourself out there. Enjoy being a fabulous young footballer.
Are on drugs or do you live on a different planet?
http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...for-the-201718-season-with-Inside-United.aspx
Anthony Martial is unwilling to reveal his appearances and goals targets this season, but the Manchester United forward is open about his ambition to win the Premier League title.
The Reds began the 2017/18 campaign with a superb 4-0 win over West Ham United at Old Trafford on Sunday, which has placed Jose Mourinho’s at the top of the table following the opening weekend.
Martial scored one of three second-half goals against the Hammers with an excellent finish, and then set up another for Paul Pogba, capping his terrific 11-minute cameo appearance as a substitute.
Speaking exclusively to Inside United magazine on the eve of the season, the Frenchman discussed his and the club’s aims for the term ahead. “As a squad, we haven’t really talked about specific aims for the season too much so far, but the goal is to win as many titles as possible,” said Martial.
“That is what we tried to do last year and it's what we are going to try to do this year. Personally, my main goal is to win titles and medals, of course. I also want to play the most. I have always wanted to play since I was young and so now I've got to do my best to win the title. I do set myself targets for appearances and goals but I keep that to myself.”
Winning the Premier League title is always a challenge and this season will be no different, with a handful of clubs all expected to fight for the championship after spending heavily in the summer transfer window. But Martial feels that will only add to the excitement and entertainment.
“Everybody in the league has been reinforcing, buying players, so it is going to be ever better and much more exciting for everyone – both for us and for those watching the Premier League,” he told us.
“We also have the Champions League to look forward to again and I think that is a competition that every team wants to win. It is a difficult competition and you have to work hard from the beginning to the end. We will see how it goes. Anything is possible.
“But the main aim is the Premier League title. That is what we want. When you play football you're playing to win, not to be second or third. So we're going to do everything we can to achieve this.”
Anthony Martial is unwilling to reveal his appearances and goals targets this season, but the Manchester United forward is open about his ambition to win the Premier League title.
The Reds began the 2017/18 campaign with a superb 4-0 win over West Ham United at Old Trafford on Sunday, which has placed Jose Mourinho’s at the top of the table following the opening weekend.
Martial scored one of three second-half goals against the Hammers with an excellent finish, and then set up another for Paul Pogba, capping his terrific 11-minute cameo appearance as a substitute.
Speaking exclusively to Inside United magazine on the eve of the season, the Frenchman discussed his and the club’s aims for the term ahead. “As a squad, we haven’t really talked about specific aims for the season too much so far, but the goal is to win as many titles as possible,” said Martial.
“That is what we tried to do last year and it's what we are going to try to do this year. Personally, my main goal is to win titles and medals, of course. I also want to play the most. I have always wanted to play since I was young and so now I've got to do my best to win the title. I do set myself targets for appearances and goals but I keep that to myself.”
Winning the Premier League title is always a challenge and this season will be no different, with a handful of clubs all expected to fight for the championship after spending heavily in the summer transfer window. But Martial feels that will only add to the excitement and entertainment.
“Everybody in the league has been reinforcing, buying players, so it is going to be ever better and much more exciting for everyone – both for us and for those watching the Premier League,” he told us.
“We also have the Champions League to look forward to again and I think that is a competition that every team wants to win. It is a difficult competition and you have to work hard from the beginning to the end. We will see how it goes. Anything is possible.
“But the main aim is the Premier League title. That is what we want. When you play football you're playing to win, not to be second or third. So we're going to do everything we can to achieve this.”
He has that beautiful technique where he drags the ball with his foot rather than kick it, keeping the ball stuck to him while accelerating. Robben has a very similar technique.
I just hope it clicks for him this season. He needs to work hard and Mou needs to trust him a bit more.
Yeah, but Martial looked very sulky this time. He looked clearly frustrated and understandably so, despite scoring a goal. He can't really hide it either, it's so visible you can spot it from a long way out.
Martial sometimes makes think of the classic brilliant-artist-expressing-creative-anguish/anxiety, indicating emptiness and suffering connected to the artist's work, as if it's channeling him when hes's playing. Nice of Jones to squeeze out a tiny little smile from Martial though.
Also Mourinho at the end, haha. Arrogantly non-animated whilst oozing confidence. However, I'm pretty sure he really enjoyed that goal. Just that he doesn't want to go all crazy since it's the first match of the season and doesn't mean shit, so he stayed clear of emotional reactions for the cameras. Good call in my books.
I think Martial will play more minutes at Swansea on Saturday. Whether that will be as a starter or from the bench remains to be seen.
One thing I would like Jose to do is just stick with Martial and Rashford for the left wing. I don't want Mkhi or Lingard to play in that position even when we switch to 433 or play a tougher opponent.
If he maintains consistent form, we will challenge. Very few players have that ability to open up space.
Ennui Martial
I would quite similarly argue that just because you can score and assist a lot does not mean you are the overall best option for the overall team. Rooney even during his high and mighty decline still managed to produce the impressive stats that kept people and managers playing him despite his all round dreadful play. Can anyone really argue that he wasn't detrimental to our all round play however?
I would suggest you get off your high horse and stop viewing football as simply a stats based game. I would think Mourinho picking Rashford over martial is in the bigger interest of the team, for whatever reason. Perhaps he believes Rashford will link up better with Lukaku and that will result in more goals for the latter? I would have to agree as Rashfords runs and positional awareness are miles ahead of Martial, despite the latter being superior in most other aspects of his game. Perhaps Mourinho thinks in most games Martial is still too predictable and must adapt his game to get that starting spot? I would have to agree.
Then again, mourinho might be full of shit and making a mistake with Martial. But please, for goodness sake this defence of Martial having to start simply because he is a productive player when in form is beyond ridiculous. Football is not as black and white as it seems and whilst even I would prefer Martial to start understand there is some kind of logical reasoning behind it.
There is way too much emphasis on stats these days. People do not like to use their eyes or brain much I see.
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Martial: “My goal is to win titles & medals.”
That's a no to Spurs then.
That's a no to Spurs then.
Rashfords a better finisher then is he?
6 months? Is that including last season where Martial was barely played? I also love them both but Rashord is not better. He works harder and gives us more cover defensively i'll give him that but they are both winger/strikers who's best attributes should be dribbling and finishing. Martial is clearly the better finisher and is also the better dribbler. Their passing and crossing is about on par.
Martial has had his troubles in front of goal too tbf. I think that both of them, when at specific angles can finish efficiently. Martials goal on Saturday was trademark really. It's other types of finishes, at different angles that currently holds both of them back.
Martial only gets to play at one angle
Rashford has demonstrated a wider range of finishing. He's scored goals from different positions (angles), headers, free kicks etc. Most if not all of Martial goals are the same, he cuts inside to his right and curls them with the side of his right foot.
I hope to God it never happens, but if it does, whatever lucky as feck club comes in and no doubt steals him for 3 times less than he's worth, will have an absolute world beater on their hands one day.
how is rashford better? he played almost every game last year and could only rack up one more scorer point than martial who didnt feature that much last year. and lets not begin to speak about the season before where martial clearly was much better.
He cuts in because he plays always on the left. His first season he was a striker and didn't do this cutting in and shooting all the whilst being our main attacking force as a striker at the age of 20
Rashford has played LW, St, fc, and RW of course he has shown a wider variety of finishing because he is being treated as a forward.
Game against West ham, winning comfortably - José didn't even think about trying out martial for Rashford to play upfront with lukaku; he completely changed the formation so martial plays at LW. It genuinely worries me - a quality formation or line up like last game might just be avoided because José doesn't regard martial as a striker if we ever do need him there.
Finishing and free kicks are very different things. Wider range of scoring is what you might have in mind. Finishing is when you're presented with a reasonable chance to score, how often do you bury it, versus how often to do you miss.
Regarding the range of finishing, it doesn't matter as much as the success rate. Martial might always have one finishing move, curling the ball to the bottom right. But when presented 1-on-1 with the keeper he seems calmer and more likely to pick the right timing as well as apply an accurate finish. Rashford misses quite a few 1-on-1 chances, either by running too close to the keeper or by not placing the ball well enough.
*opens the thread
Tedious debate on Rashford v Martial
*heads out again
Tedious debate on Rashford v Martial
*heads out again
I don't know why some people think he's a CF tbh. His greatest strength is his dribbling and ability to run at defenders which is better utilized from the wings. His poor movement and hold up play also make him less suited to play CF. I think people complaining about Martial not playing down the middle are making excuses for him tbh. He's mostly played LW even at Monaco.
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Even more tedious is the people who argue Rashford is more talented.
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