The arguement was that him being a focal point meant we could get him 1 on 1 with the fullback or in more space. Now the team as a whole is better and everyone is scoring more including Martial. I wasn’t talking about stats I was talking about him as a player.
9
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 45
- Goals
- 11
- Assists
- 11
- Yellow cards
- 1
- Status
The arguement was that him being a focal point meant we could get him 1 on 1 with the fullback or in more space. Now the team as a whole is better and everyone is scoring more including Martial. I wasn’t talking about stats I was talking about him as a player.
Surely him being the focal point that year and benefiting from more 1v1s and more space as you said would mean a bigger chance of scoring and assisting? Surely that counts towards the quality of a player? So if he is less the focal point now as you also said (with him being just a cog in the wheel), that means he's got less 1v1s and less space... but he still manages to score and assist more? That's improvement in performance right there.
No because we create way more chances for the whole team now. Whereas in Martial’s debut season we would create very little, and the few chances we created was through Martial.
But did you not argue that back then Martial scored so many because all the chances fell to him as the focal point of the team？And even if that wasn't you: Martial loves 1v1s versus fullbacks and go inside and shoot... surely that means more chances for his specialty if you say he was benefiting from all those 1v1s and space under LvG... and surely that means more chances for assisting players.. It suggests improvement to be able to put up greater figures in spite of lacking all that you say he benefited from in his first year.
You keep coming back to stats... that was never my arguement. I was talking performance and system wise. Also, it would be unfair to expect him to score and create goals with the 2 or 3 chances each game he had under van gaal. What he did do though was look threatening and exploit the 1v1 situations. This is performance based, not stat based.
I don't think Martial has more than 2 or 3 chances coming from the left with people now double teaming him and Lukaku being the Designated goalscorer in the team. So if he had 2 or 3 chances per game back then AND more space and 1v1s, then surely he is doing something better this season to be able to looking like surpassing that by the end of may?
I understand what you mean: he still has alot of those brainfart moments, he still has alot of those wrinkles that need ironing out. If you look at my recent post history you can see I criticized him for that. But If/when he does get rid of those faults that are usually related to age and experience, coupled with his end product nowadays, he will be a great player.
He definitely does have more than 2-3 chances per game this year. Rashford and Lingard are getting more goals and assists as well. A goal/assist is not going to change my mind on whether someone is playing well or not. I can appreciate the goal if its a good one and/or important one but that’s it. If it’s a discussion about player performance etc then you have to look at more than just goals, and the other night against Stoke is a good example.
I think he will be a great player as well, so long as he keeps working on his attacking work rate, movement, runs, concentration etc. He has a good base with his dribbling and ball control at pace, but he has always had that.
The bolded is just ridiculous when judging attackers. For attackers goals/assists transcend every other contribution.
Midfielders and Number 10s might be different as their primary function is possession related
If a player performs badly but scores a goal, I am not going to suddenly say he played well. Any manager would congratulate the player on the goal but still focus on what he did wrong so he can improve.
Still don't get why people still aren't impressed. He is going to be one of the best in the world.
Had a poor game by his standard and still scored and assisted. That's what you want.
Had a poor game by his standard and still scored and assisted. That's what you want.
Yes most agreed that despite the goal/assist his general play was below aceptable standard the last game. The real issue here is using the performance to discredit the player
I didn’t use the performance to discredit Martial though. If you read through the earlier posts I said I wasn’t criticising him for having a poorer game because these things happen sometimes.
You didn't. I wasn't referring to you specifically
Fair enough.
Indeed. a real difference maker
exactly. Imagine if that was Henry. playing poorly then pulls out a moment of pure quality. That's what the good players do all the time. They are difference makers.
He's clearly improved his shooting from range, I don't think he scored from outside the box for us in his first 2 seasons, yet his last 3 goals have been from range. If that's not evidence of improvement than I don't know what is.
20 goals/assists so far. Not bad.
He could/should reach 20 goals this season.
He could/should reach 20 goals this season.
I mean he scores that goal against Stoke every year
In his debut season he had some outstanding finishes as well. If you go back and look his finishing was just as good back then. Some of them look even better.
Yeah he did have some nice finishes in his first season but I'm specifically talking about shots from outside of the box. He hadn't scored any before this season. Would you not say that's evidence of an improvement to his game?I mean he scores that goal against Stoke every year
In his debut season he had some outstanding finishes as well. If you go back and look his finishing was just as good back then. Some of them look even better.
I mean like I said, he scored a similar one against Stoke in his debut season. The one against Watford was a pass into the corner, it’s not something debut season Martial couldn’t have finished, it was pretty simple for him. Then you have Everton? I’m not sure one goal constitutes an ‘improvement’. He probably wasn’t even allowed to shoot outside the box under van gaal
.I mean like I said, he scored a similar one against Stoke in his debut season. The one against Watford was a pass into the corner, it’s not something debut season Martial couldn’t have finished, it was pretty simple for him. Then you have Everton? I’m not sure one goal constitutes an ‘improvement’. He probably wasn’t even allowed to shoot outside the box under van gaal
In 2015-16: 12 shots from outside the box - 0 goals
2017-18: 14 shots from outside the box - 3 goals.
I mean if you want to take away the context I tried to provide, fine. You’re counting goals like the one against watford as ‘from range’ when it’s a pretty simple ‘pass’ finish for him. He has shown he can rifle one in in his debut season like he did this season.
He is only a few inches outside the box for both the Watford and Everton goals anyway. It’s a weak arguement to use those goals to say his long range shooting has improved.
That'd be brilliant, only just turned 22 as well, he's putting out impressive numbers and he seems to have a very good understanding with Lukaku too.
Welbeck finishing 1 chance doesn't prove he is a good finisher.
Not sure how you are not seeing it. Every aspect of his game has improved if you go by stats also. Goals scored, assists, chances created, shot accuracy, dribble completion rate, total passes, pass completion per 90 mins have all increased this season than 2015-16.
I don't get why you have to try so hard to discredit him all the time. The goal he scored on Monday may have ended up in a similar area as his previous ones against Stoke but it was a much harder technique to pull off than his previous ones. It's a lot more difficult to hit a shot rolling towards you at pace, first time, than it is to hit a ball already under control. Likewise, he other two goals were eqsuisite. Give credit where it's due. If it had been Rashford there's no way you'd be having this arguement.
I could very easily say him scoring against Stoke doesn’t mean his long range shooting has improved. I mean, that’s what you are trying to argue.
No but scoring 3 from outside the box in 14 shots is a superb record, probably best in league.
I am not discrediting him. Go and read through what I was saying. I have offered valid points. Why do people always get emotional when Martial is analysed and not everything is deemed amazing?
Someone said his shooting has clearly improved. I said it’s not actually that clear, he had some great finishes in his debut season. The guy then said because he had scored 3 goals from outside the box it proves he had improved. I then broke down the goals. What’s so bad about that?
If i had a problem with my missus and i performed badly at my job for a whole year i would get the sack.
It’s a poor excuse to hide behind, everybody has problems in life. As said in my and a lot of people’s opinions he’s not playing fantastic now and he’s had his critics this season, so what’s the excuse there?
You original arguement was that his long range shooting improved. You then said him scoring from outside the box against everton and watford proved this. They were hardly long range. The Everton goal is superb but the Watford goal is something debut season Martial could have easily scored. It doesn’t really showcase an improvement. That’s the whole point of this debate, no?
Your points aren't valid though, you're clearly letting your bias cloud your judgement. Like I said, his goal on Monday was a lot more difficult that his previous goals against Stoke, do you acknowledge that?
You can keep talking about great finishes in his first season but we're talking about goals from outside the box, something he hadn't shown previously that he's showing in adbundance this season. Why is it so difficult for you to credit him for that?
Been voted player of the month twice so 'you and a lot of people's' opinions must be a minority. Has also been delivering recently hence why the manager has him ahead of Rashford.
As Haram once said. The manager knows football more than all of us and his opinion is always right
How does he stack up against other French wingers/strikers and what are his chances of making the French WC squad?
Have you even read what I have been posting? We were talking about LONG RANGE shooting. Both the Watford and Everton goals were inches outside the box. The Watford goal is something Martial could have easily scored in his debut season. I have said repeatedly I am not here to discredit Martial. People like you cant take any sort of debate.
And what would I be biased about? He plays for the fecking team I support.
Could have scored but didn't. Well your argument is based on assumptions now.
A couple people have said that? What do people think his ‘standard’ is?
Previous games gone by all you can read is words like ‘poor’ ‘overrated’ ‘lazy’ on his performances on the RedCafe, so if he was “a poor by his standard” against Stoke what does that even mean? I’m convinced a lot of people don’t even watch the games, just check the internet and see he got a goal and assist and go
For me it was a typical sluggish Martial performance.
If you’re going to be pedantic about it we might as well just stop here.
I think he has improved since his first season. His decision making is better, as is his off the ball movement.
Im glad he cemented his spot in our best XI, he's going to be some player for us.
Im glad he cemented his spot in our best XI, he's going to be some player for us.
You thought we were going somewhere when you couldn't even acknowledge facts and stared with your assumptions? 12 shots 0 goals vs 14 shots 3 goals, if that's not improvement then I don't know what is.
I don't know if you problems with reading but it was me who started the conversation, in my first post I specifically said goals from outside the box. But you know what, I'm not going to waste my time talking to you about this, of you think you're objective when it comes to Martial then you must be having a laugh. It's no coincidence that numerous people pull you up on your bullshit in this thread. Everyone can see your agenda.
- Status