[haram]

Pogba is obviously a big difference but I dont think mkhitaryan or mata offer something more then having both rashford and martial there. Just purely looking at those. Wouldnt it be more balanced by having a very similar threat on both sides of the pitch, and have the fullbacks hold the width and overlap, with the creativity/control of pogba and whoever plays #10 to supply them and lukaku chances? Its what fergie when for a lot of the time and its basically what Pep does now. Barca/bayern/madrid/psg all have very big threats from both sides of the pitch. We basically write off the right side to just Valencia's runs and try to overload the middle with average playmakers and still end up relying on pogba. I dont see how thats better balance. Isnt better in an attacking sense compared to rashford being out there, and defensively who cares, they all do a decent job defensively for wingers anyway.

Mata helps the midfield. Playing Rashford on the right would largely push him to go on the outside, something Valencia does already. You are reducing Rashford's threat and removing Mata who links with the midfield. Not to mention Martial is largely going to cut inside anyway. It makes us predictable, and makes us lighter in midfield.

 

[Silas]

Mata helps the midfield. Playing Rashford on the right would largely push him to go on the outside, something Valencia does already. You are reducing Rashford's threat and removing Mata who links with the midfield. Not to mention Martial is largely going to cut inside anyway. It makes us predictable, and makes us lighter in midfield.

What's the point in Mata "helping the midfield" from the right wing if the #10 is supposed to do the same thing? Apart from circulating possession with zero penetration, what does helping the midfield consist of?

 

[bosnian_red]

Mata helps the midfield. Playing Rashford on the right would largely push him to go on the outside, something Valencia does already. You are reducing Rashford's threat and removing Mata who links with the midfield. Not to mention Martial is largely going to cut inside anyway. It makes us predictable, and makes us lighter in midfield.

If anything Id say it makes us more unpredictable. Like this we know our whole game plan is go to the left wing. Both of them there, threat from both flanks. And you can keep mata in as the 10, with pogba and matic behind him. Balance is perfectly fine there. You dont need 4 players who play centrally, especially when you have someone like pogba in the middle. It just clogs it unecessarily, wouldnt say we are any lighter. And you cant just say valencia plays wide so no need to put anyone else there. A big part of every team is getting multiple players in attacking positions to create 1v1 or 2v1 opportunities, instead of martial/Rashford or valencia always getting double teamed. This way we can have rashford link up with valencua, have martial and blind link up together on the left, mata and pogba create stuff for the others and matic be the holding player. Seems perfectly balanced IMO (and with the exception of lukaku being anti pep, something I would bet he would play if he was here).

Or think back to fergie. We never had just 1 player do the attacking. The wingers would always have fullbacks overlap them to add a lot more threat and help them out. And we had a big threat from both sides. Ronaldo and nani/giggs, or valencia when he was an attacking winger with nani on the left. At full backs we had evra always overlapping on the left and then rafael always on the right, or even when we had others normally more defensive like Brown there, he still overlapped all the time to create more openings in attack. You dont need to load up the middle and just have 1 attacking player per side. Actually thats pretty much the reason why we are shite and predictable going forward. Makes it too hard for our wide players to do anything. Get a threat from both sides like all the best teams, and still have fullbacks provide width in attack, and we'll create way more chances.

 

[bosnian_red]

What's the point in Mata "helping the midfield" from the right wing if the #10 is supposed to do the same thing? Apart from circulating possession with zero penetration, what does helping the midfield consist of?

Getting 2 players to do the job of 1, basically something we've been doing since Fergie left and now people think its normal and think it leaves us weak defensively if everyone can do their own job properly.

 

[haram]

What's the point in Mata "helping the midfield" from the right wing if the #10 is supposed to do the same thing? Apart from circulating possession with zero penetration, what does helping the midfield consist of?

#10 and Mata occupy different zones. Mata also offers link play with Valencia to get him to the byline. Mata also offers a closer link to Mkhi than someone who stays wide most of the time. Mata also offers good delivery from that side of the box.

 

[haram]

If anything Id say it makes us more unpredictable. Like this we know our whole game plan is go to the left wing. Both of them there, threat from both flanks. And you can keep mata in as the 10, with pogba and matic behind him. Balance is perfectly fine there. You dont need 4 players who play centrally, especially when you have someone like pogba in the middle. It just clogs it unecessarily, wouldnt say we are any lighter. And you cant just say valencia plays wide so no need to put anyone else there. A big part of every team is getting multiple players in attacking positions to create 1v1 or 2v1 opportunities, instead of martial/Rashford or valencia always getting double teamed. This way we can have rashford link up with valencua, have martial and blind link up together on the left, mata and pogba create stuff for the others and matic be the holding player. Seems perfectly balanced IMO (and with the exception of lukaku being anti pep, something I would bet he would play if he was here).

Or think back to fergie. We never had just 1 player do the attacking. The wingers would always have fullbacks overlap them to add a lot more threat and help them out. And we had a big threat from both sides. Ronaldo and nani/giggs, or valencia when he was an attacking winger with nani on the left. At full backs we had evra always overlapping on the left and then rafael always on the right, or even when we had others normally more defensive like Brown there, he still overlapped all the time to create more openings in attack. You dont need to load up the middle and just have 1 attacking player per side. Actually thats pretty much the reason why we are shite and predictable going forward. Makes it too hard for our wide players to do anything. Get a threat from both sides like all the best teams, and still have fullbacks provide width in attack, and we'll create way more chances.

Mourinho has thought all of this through. At the end of the day, having Martial who will basically cut inside from the left and Rashford and Valencia who will mostly be stuck going on the outside on the other side is predictable. People forget that Rashford and Martial aren't even proper wingers.

 

[yo@Kirk]

Martial should play centrally because he is the only attacking player with the physical abilities and technical skills too play the central creator role linking the defense/midfield with the attack.
Mourinho can't figure out how the get his three best attacking players (Lukaku, Rashford, and Martial) working well together in a functional attacking system. And then he wonders why the board isn't jumping at the chance to give him a 65m pound extension.

 

[Laurentiu amt]

Young player in need a consistent run of games shocker. It doesn’t matter how he plays, if you play him week in week out you’ll see a dramatic improvement in consistency over time. It’s not like we have anyone else superior to him in that position.

I'm also a bit baffled on why Jose doesn't start him regularly.

You see a lot of young players today improve "overnight" by just starting games, and let's be honest, it's quite obvious we have a gem in our hands.

It will be a shocker if he'd leave and explode in Spain. I really hope he'll be a future star for us though, he's just too big of a potential and he's unplayable at times.

 

[MemphisDepay]

I'm also a bit baffled on why Jose doesn't start him regularly.

You see a lot of young players today improve "overnight" by just starting games, and let's be honest, it's quite obvious we have a gem in our hands.

It will be a shocker if he'd leave and explode in Spain. I really hope he'll be a future star for us though, he's just too big of a potential and he's unplayable at times.

He doesn’t run after the full back which is all José wants from a winger. To defend.

 

[Laurentiu amt]

He doesn’t run after the full back which is all José wants from a winger. To defend.

Yeah yeah, I get you, but his outright potential is too big and obvious for Jose not to risk it and get over his winger defending shite. I also think this has something to do with us not having a decent enough natural left back though.

 

[haram]

He doesn’t run after the full back which is all José wants from a winger. To defend.

Incorrect.

 

[MemphisDepay]

Incorrect.

Incorrect.

 

[Damien]

Mourinho has thought all of this through. At the end of the day, having Martial who will basically cut inside from the left and Rashford and Valencia who will mostly be stuck going on the outside on the other side is predictable. People forget that Rashford and Martial aren't even proper wingers.

Just give them freedom to roam around like Martial and Mbappe did for France. France seemed to cope okay and they were playing Germany.

Would make us less predictable and other teams seem to cope playing their best players from the start.

 

[Silas]

Getting 2 players to do the job of 1, basically something we've been doing since Fergie left and now people think its normal and think it leaves us weak defensively if everyone can do their own job properly.

Same with the width issue. Plenty have been clamouring for 'proper wingers' who can provide width (e.g. Perisic) when we should be looking for full-backs to do that very thing (as well as defend obviously) to give our attackers more freedom in the final third rather than keep them out wide to whip crosses in.

#10 and Mata occupy different zones. Mata also offers link play with Valencia to get him to the byline. Mata also offers a closer link to Mkhi than someone who stays wide most of the time. Mata also offers good delivery from that side of the box.

If they're both "helping the midfield" they're surely occupying the same zone? Not sure how you can say they occupy different zones anyway when Mata drifts towards the centre and leaves the entire wing to Valencia more often than not. Offering a closer link to Mhiki? If that's what he's there for then we could very easily just have the LW drift inside more instead to cover for that. How many goals (or even chances) has this good delivery provided us with then?

Regardless of your answer to the any of the above, I fail to see how any of this balances our team. Being capable of passing to Valencia or Mhiki isn't something worthy of mentioning. None of what you've brought up is something only Mata is capable of and nothing you've said explains why we need another player to help balance the midfield when we could just try someone who can actually keep the ball at #10 instead (Mata's usually pretty good at this tbf) and use a genuine threat like Rashford on the right. Even just swapping Mata and Mhiki's positions would be a start.

 

[haram]

We have gone from...

Play Martial ahead of Rashford, to play Rashford on the right, to some people saying play Martial behind the striker.

It seems like really, to me, we just miss Pogba, and Mourinho knows better than all of us.

 

[MemphisDepay]

We have gone from...

Play Martial ahead of Rashford, to play Rashford on the right, to some people saying play Martial behind the striker.

It seems like really, to me, we just miss Pogba, and Mourinho knows better than all of us.

Seriously Rui, I wish you’d spend more time on the training ground.

 

[haram]

Same with the width issue. Plenty have been clamouring for 'proper wingers' who can provide width (e.g. Perisic) when we should be looking for full-backs to do that very thing (as well as defend obviously) to give our attackers more freedom in the final third rather than keep them out wide to whip crosses in.


If they're both "helping the midfield" they're surely occupying the same zone? Not sure how you can say they occupy different zones anyway when Mata drifts towards the centre and leaves the entire wing to Valencia more often than not. Offering a closer link to Mhiki? If that's what he's there for then we could very easily just have the LW to drift inside more instead to cover for that. How many goals (or even chances) has this good delivery provided us with then?

Regardless of your answer to the any of the above, I fail to see how any of this balances our team. Being capable of passing to Valencia or Mhiki isn't something worthy of mentioning. None of what you've brought up is something only Mata is capable of and nothing you've said explains why we need another player to help balance the midfield when we could just try someone who can actually keep the ball at #10 instead (Mata's usually pretty good at this tbf) and use a genuine threat like Rashford on the right. Even just swapping Mata and Mhiki's positions would be a start.

There is a gap between the AM and Valencia on the right. Mata can also pick the ball up deeper in midfield allowing Mkhi to stay higher up. Martial on the LW does drift inside... mostly only when he has the ball though. Some or Rashford's threat is also lost if you play him on the right. Mata also helps the midfield press.

 

[haram]

Seriously Rui, I wish you’d spend more time on the training ground.

Have you seen the amount of trophies I have won in my career? Don't tell me what I should be doing.

 

[Silas]

There is a gap between the AM and Valencia on the right. Mata can also pick the ball up deeper in midfield allowing Mkhi to stay higher up. Martial on the LW does drift inside... mostly only when he has the ball though. Some or Rashford's threat is also lost if you play him on the right.

What's the point in that? Why not have Mhiki (or anyone) pick up the ball like he's supposed to as a #10 and have someone like Rashford stay high up? Yeah as you said, only on the ball, meaning that when Mhiki is on the ball, Martial isn't nearby to provide this all-essential closer link that Mata brings by being allowed to roam. A diminished threat from Rashford is still greater than whatever Mata's bringing to the table from the right, so I don't see the problem. If we have to sacrifice players for the good of the team (Rashford isn't even bad on the right anyway), so be it. With Valencia on the wing he won't be forced to hug the line or anything either, so he'll mostly be coming at an angle where he can shoot across goal with his right or pull it back to Lukaku or whoever from the byline. Martial and an in form Mhiki/Mata carrying the ball forward while Lukaku and Rashford make runs would be pretty hard for opposition to handle imo.

 

[haram]

What's the point in that? Why not have Mhiki (or anyone) pick up the ball like he's supposed to as a #10 and have someone like Rashford stay high up? Yeah as you said, only on the ball, meaning that when Mhiki is on the ball, Martial isn't nearby to provide this all-essential closer link that Mata brings by being allowed to roam. A diminished threat from Rashford is still greater than whatever Mata's bringing to the table from the right, so I don't see the problem. If we have to sacrifice players for the good of the team (Rashford isn't even bad on the right anyway), so be it. With Valencia on the wing he won't be forced to hug the line or anything either, so he'll mostly be coming at an angle where he can shoot across goal with his right or pull it back to Lukaku or whoever from the byline. Martial and an in form Mhiki/Mata carrying the ball forward while Lukaku and Rashford make runs would be pretty hard for opposition to handle imo.

What do you mean what's the point in that? You think Mourinho plays Mata there for banter? I just said he helps the midfield press and link play. He occupies certain areas to pick the ball up from and press from.

This topic is so tedious. Mourinho has thought all of this through. People cant even accept the arguement Mourinho may have for setting the team up like this. They just claim it as illogical. Even when we were winning we'd get this shite.

People really think Mourinho hasn't gone over the idea of playing Rashford on the right, and that he doesn't have perfectly reasonable reasons for not doing so. We could win the fecking league and people would still cry.

 

[Yagami]

We have gone from...

Play Martial ahead of Rashford, to play Rashford on the right, to some people saying play Martial behind the striker.

It seems like really, to me, we just miss Pogba, and Mourinho knows better than all of us.

It's never changed for me, though. Martial should be our 1st choice on the left of attack, and then we should be try and fit Rashford in somewhere as he's outperformed Lingard/Mkhi/Mata. I've said before that I think Rashford or Martial could make good #10s so I wouldn't be against either of them playing there either.

It's more than just missing Pogba because we haven't been that good with him in the team, too. Better, sure, but not that good.

 

[haram]

It's never changed for me, though. Martial should be our 1st choice on the left of attack, and then we should be try and fit Rashford in somewhere as he's outperformed Lingard/Mkhi/Mata. I've said before that I think Rashford or Martial could make good #10s so I wouldn't be against either of them playing there either.

It's more than just missing Pogba because we haven't been that good with him in the team, too. Better, sure, but not that good.

Im glad Mourinho disagrees with you.

 

[Silas]

What do you mean what's the point in that? You think Mourinho plays Mata there for banter? I just said he helps the midfield press and link play. He occupies certain areas to pick the ball up from and press from.

This topic is so tedious. Mourinho has thought all of this through. People cant even accept the arguement Mourinho may have for setting the team up like this. They just claim it as illogical. Even when we were winning we'd get this shite.

People really think Mourinho hasn't gone over the idea of playing Rashford on the right, and that he doesn't have perfectly reasonable reasons for not doing so. We could win the fecking league and people would still cry.

I mean, what's the point in having our right winger come deep so that our #10 can stay high when it should be the other way around?

Regarding the bolded, why are you presenting your argument (which is literally 'the manager is always right' at this point) as Mourinho's? Is this really Rui?

 

[haram]

I mean, what's the point in having our right winger come deep so that our #10 can stay high when it should be the other way around?

Regarding the bolded, why are you presenting your argument (which is literally 'the manager is always right' at this point) as Mourinho's? Is this really Rui?

I said the arguement Mourinho MAY have. He obviously has his reasons for playing Mata there. Some of which I have explained. You can see what Mata does if you have eyes. Even if Mourinho explained this to you himself you would turn around and call it shite. What's the point in having another body in midfield? Is that a real question?

 

[BluesJr]

Im glad Mourinho disagrees with you.

Why do you prefer Rashford over Martial? Genuinely intrigued to hear your reasons.

 

[Silas]

I said the arguement Mourinho MAY have. He obviously has his reasons for playing Mata there. Some of which I have explained. You can see what Mata does if you have eyes. Even if Mourinho explained this to you himself you would turn around and call it shite. What's the point in having another body in midfield? Is that a real question?

Ah, so guesswork? I've already explained how his role isn't something unique (or necessary tbh) that nobody else is capable of. I'd just ask the same questions I've asked you. You say that as if adding another body to the midfield doesn't take away a body from the attack. With Mata in midfield passing the ball around, that leaves one less avenue when it comes to attacking, which is why we end up focusing on getting the ball to our LW to pull something off. This is predictable and is what leads to Martial or Rashford getting double-marked or triple-marked(as Mata provides no real threat himself comparatively on the other side). Martial and Rashford on either side would ensure that something like that couldn't happen and thus, the game would be more open for both of them. Can Mourinho do no wrong in your eyes?

 

[haram]

Why do you prefer Rashford over Martial? Genuinely intrigued to hear your reasons.

Rashford is more explosive, better attacking work rate, better movement, also on set pieces. Martial lets himself down with his movement and attacking work rate for me. He is a good dribbler and has excellent ball control.

Rashford is better against teams who sit back. Martial looks most effective with space and is restricted because he mostly has to cut inside. His movement without the ball isn't good enough.

When Martial was coming off the bench earlier on in the season, we had already scored the first goal. This meant opposing teams had to open up a bit which gave Martial the space he needed. When Martial starts against teams like Huddersfield who sit deep and defend, it's difficult for him trying to cut inside with so many bodies in the way.

 

[haram]

Ah, so guesswork? I've already explained how his role isn't something unique (or necessary tbh) that nobody else is capable of. I'd just ask the same questions I've asked you. You say that as if adding another body to the midfield doesn't take away a body from the attack. With Mata in midfield passing the ball around, that leaves one less avenue when it comes to attacking, which is why we end up focusing on getting the ball to our LW to pull something off. This is predictable and is what leads to Martial or Rashford getting double-marked or triple-marked(as Mata provides no real threat himself comparatively on the other side). Martial and Rashford on either side would ensure that something like that couldn't happen and thus, the game would be more open for both of them. Can Mourinho do no wrong in your eyes?

Yes, I am sure Mourinho thinks the role is 'unneccesary' as well.

Mata isn't always going to be deep. When we need him to be deeper he will drop back. He will fill the gaps and occupy spaces depending on the situation. This is the sort of thing they work on in training. I can't sit here and explain all of the patterns to you. If Mourinho explains the patterns to you, would it change your mind? I very much doubt it.

You are out of your mind if you think Mourinho hasn't thought about playing Rashford on the right and considered the impact it has on the team as a whole.

People think just because Rashford is attacking and right footed, playing him there will solve everything. If that was really the case Mourinho would have just put him there ages ago. Do people think Mourinho is that daft? Think about it logically. If the answer is that blatant and simple he would have fecking done it already.

 

[Borden]

Ah, so guesswork? I've already explained how his role isn't something unique (or necessary tbh) that nobody else is capable of. I'd just ask the same questions I've asked you. You say that as if adding another body to the midfield doesn't take away a body from the attack. With Mata in midfield passing the ball around, that leaves one less avenue when it comes to attacking, which is why we end up focusing on getting the ball to our LW to pull something off. This is predictable and is what leads to Martial or Rashford getting double-marked or triple-marked(as Mata provides no real threat himself comparatively on the other side). Martial and Rashford on either side would ensure that something like that couldn't happen and thus, the game would be more open for both of them. Can Mourinho do no wrong in your eyes?

That's pretty much it. It's a massive waste of time discussing this with him because for him everything boils down to 'we must all accept Mourinho's decisions because he is infallible'. The idea of ever questioning Mourinho's decisions seems completely foreign to him.

 

[haram]

That's pretty much it. It's a massive waste of time discussing this with him because for him everything boils down to 'we must all accept Mourinho's decisions because he is infallible'. The idea of ever questioning Mourinho's decisions seems completely foreign to him.

Hilarious.

Playing both on the wings is the most simplistic solution that anyone could come up with. If it was the answer, one of the greatest managers of all time would have fecking done it by now.

 

[Borden]

I rest my case.

 

[Smores]

Ah, so guesswork? I've already explained how his role isn't something unique (or necessary tbh) that nobody else is capable of. I'd just ask the same questions I've asked you. You say that as if adding another body to the midfield doesn't take away a body from the attack. With Mata in midfield passing the ball around, that leaves one less avenue when it comes to attacking, which is why we end up focusing on getting the ball to our LW to pull something off. This is predictable and is what leads to Martial or Rashford getting double-marked or triple-marked(as Mata provides no real threat himself comparatively on the other side). Martial and Rashford on either side would ensure that something like that couldn't happen and thus, the game would be more open for both of them. Can Mourinho do no wrong in your eyes?

To be honest i don't think Fergie would have played both either. Wierdly everyone's forget he liked at least one hard working winger in the team for most games, never mind these lads aren't even wingers.

Both of them together on the pitch will only really work in a 4-3-3 which is fine but is very much dependent on a fit Pogba.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

One of the reasons Martial did well was because he wasn't used as a midfielder, yesterday he was part of an attacking trio that was allowed to roam everywhere on the front line, so Martial and the others just moved where the space was and used their abilities to create things. The weird thing is that Mourinho knows that, he called Martial "a different type of striker", he knows that he is an attacker.

Exactly. Stop making Rashford and Martial play as wide midfielders/wingbacks. They're forwards ffs.

 

[haram]

Exactly. Stop making Rashford and Martial play as wide midfielders/wingbacks. They're forwards ffs.

I can see that arguement. It depends on how it will affect the rest of the team though.

If the team isn't working once Pogba is back, maybe a change to a 343 is something Mourinho will look at.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I can see that arguement. It depends on how it will affect the rest of the team though.

If the team isn't working once Pogba is back, maybe a change to a 343 is something Mourinho will look at.

It won't. It's mere paranoia to fear the implications of starting two brilliant young players over two floundering older ones (Mkhitaryan and Mata). What balance exactly has Mkhitaryan been giving exactly apart from titling it in the oppositions direction?

And Pogba coming back will improve us but thats not relevant to other decisions. You do the stop making logical decisions because Pogba comes back. And I think we'd have struggled in this period with Pogba as well give how we've played.

 

[It's B Rubble]

Tony was my MOTM against Germany. Flank to flank with a free role and he outperformed Mbappe. The skill for the goal was beyond WC and watching Rashford v Brazil, Tony is by far the smarter player. It lends to the notion that Our #11 is more in the mold of a Ribery, Robben, or a Hazard than a pure winger or striker. Although he gave up on Ozil for the final goal, his defence and tracking back was a testament to Mourinho.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Hilarious.

Playing both on the wings is the most simplistic solution that anyone could come up with. If it was the answer, one of the greatest managers of all time would have fecking done it by now.

Seeing De Bruyne's incredible potential and the short term and long term payoff from sticking with him is something he should have seen too. But he didn't fecking do it.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

To be honest i don't think Fergie would have played both either. Wierdly everyone's forget he liked at least one hard working winger in the team for most games, never mind these lads aren't even wingers.

Both of them together on the pitch will only really work in a 4-3-3 which is fine but is very much dependent on a fit Pogba.

We can't keep harping back to the past. Teams play with three forwards all the time now. And it doesn't need Pogba either. We have enough central players to play that formation.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Just give them freedom to roam around like Martial and Mbappe did for France. France seemed to cope okay and they were playing Germany.

Would make us less predictable and other teams seem to cope playing their best players from the start.

Yeah people are just overcomplicating things. Play a fluid front three that are all athletic and are allowed to roam. It just makes common sense. I don't see how Rashford is restricted to doing nothing but going on the outside on the right whereas Mata is some magnificent multi faceted option who can apparently do it all. When the reality is that Mata spends most of the time coming inside on to his left and playing it short/sideways. Mkhitarian is even worse as he usually just gives the ball away.

Also, really, if you play a fluid front three as actual forwards then you play without a 10 and have three CMs/hybrid AMs. It's the same thing as having Mata cut in and add a number except it allows the front three to focus on their duties.

For me it's about being attacking and positive and playing your best players rather than balance.

 

[haram]

Seeing De Bruyne's incredible potential and the short term and long term payoff from sticking with him is something he should have seen too. But he didn't fecking do it.

That was not as simple as playing Martial and Rashford on the wings.