Nail on head.
9
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Nail on head.
While I do think they're skilled players, I'm not blown away by them, to the level that the hype here reaches. They both need to leave Utd for regular playing time if they want the best for themselves. That's what I'd do.
Too right.
Martial has been at Utd just over 2 years now, and is a regular member of the first team squad. Has there been any significant improvement in his game in that time? I haven't seen any, except maybe he can beat 3 players now instead of two before running the ball out of play.
His interlinking with other players has gone up several levels. He can now drop deeper and get involved more than he ever could in the past. I don't know if that's due to playing out wide or the possession game LVG had us playing but it's a definite improvement from when he joined us.
Yes because in the whole match with all of his dribbling and fanciness he created one chance which he squandered. So yes, bar one chance which he terribly missed he produced practically feck all.
Yeah end product was not the best but this season hes been so much better. He's getting the chances now and that's what we want. Ronaldo and kane have plenty of shots and chances. It's easy to focus on what he didnt do than what he has done. I was supper impressed with him, especially the progress from last season.
I think the dropping deeper bit may be down to Mourinho's philosophy that seems to be "everyone is a defender". I certainly don't think his end product has improved since joining us.
Must be just a coincidence that he's 'on his game' against weaker teams.
Also, you're really going to compare Zaha to Martial? He didn't rip too many PL defenders when he played for us.
Can't say I've ever comes across this point of view before. Every team plays its best players from the off.
If you play all of Lukaku, Martial and Rashford from the start, chances are the link between midfield and attack may suffer to an extent. Mkhi and Mata provide that link. No offence but it is a simple thing to see. Jose knows what he is doing. His style may be questionalble for the purists (and I'd admit that I have never been a fan of his football) but he is one of the most intelligent managers out there.
Simple thing to see? Not sure what you mean by that because there has been numerous times he has started Lingard on the right. Plus even when playing both Rashford and Martial, one of Mata and Mkhi can still be started in the 10 role, so that link to midfield you talk about is still there. It isn't the wide men's place to provide that link imo, it is their place to find space out wide, stretch the defenders and it is up to the midfielders to find them.
Lingard is used mostly as a a midfielder. Rash and Martial are forwards. More importantly, we are talking here about important games, not dead rubbers.
Sorry but you are missing the point I made really in that wide men provide width and the number 10 is the link to the midfield. We would still be able to play one of Mata and Mkhi! Or are you saying we need two number 10's on the field to provide a link? Neither Mata, Mkhi, or Lingard is a right winger any more than Martial, or Rashford. Both Martial and Rashford whether they are forwards or not are better than Lingard and would be better out right imo.
My initial point was that the dynamic between the two is obviousLy working, but Jose would probably have numerous reasons for preferring this particular dynamic. One being, both LVG and Jose have opted to keep a playmaker on the right anyway. We’ve had two windows with Jose (and those under LVG’s tenure) who still hasn’t identified the right flank to be a big enough issue for it to be prioritised/addressed. This indicates a preference for this tactical setup.
I don’t think either of them have yet shown the capability to play on the right flank to an adequate standard. Sure yo can play them in to it, but that would be whilst sacrificing ball possession - which we’re not particularly good at as is.
Maybe it could work with a midfield 3 behind, but our most creative midfielder is out so where do you get that forward passing thrust from? Lingard, Miki, Mata - all 10s.
Edit —
Just to add on the “Everyone plays their best attackers. Mbappe starts on the right for psg to get him up there with neymar and cavani for a reason, because he is quality. Of course he could be an impact sub, but he could also start.“ segment.
Not really the best example to make your point upon. They just made Mbappe the second most expensive signing ever, so rather benching him for the sake of depth it will probably be one of Di Maria, Draxler Etc to get relegated.
In a much more competitive league, playing 2 games a week it’s interesting to consider how one would handle their fitness levels while not blunting the attack.
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Don't you notice the difference between Mata/Mkhi and Martial/Rashford? That difference should give you a clue. What if one man is not enough to link successfully midfield and attack because of making the play more predictable and more easy to defend against? Obvious stuff there. I'm done.
Jesus mate, we shouldn't be putting on a player in the right wing position to provide the link in midfield. A number 10 does that, don't you know that? You say you are done, because you are speaking nonsense in saying we must play two 10's. A 10 in the normal position, and a 10 out of position to provide a link.
Hint: one could have playmaking functions even if playing wide. Plenty of examples. Thanks for the discussion.
If you are unable to debate once you have made a point, then what is the point in you being on a discussion board? Shock horror, someone (me) doesn't agree with the point you are making, but instead of debating it, you are going all defensive and trying to end the discussion. It is funny.
Anyway, I think having one 10 on the field is more than enough. I think the speed of Martial and Rashford would benefit us much more on the wings than having Mata out there. You mentioned about there being a link to midfield and I have pulled you up on that and mentioned our link is the actual 10 playing through the middle, and because you have failed to acknowledge that you are now changing the argument and saying it is because even though whoever is out right could have playmaking functions. You even when as far as to cocky about by saying "hint"
When in actual fact you don't even know. "Could have playmaking functions" So not sure then? Is it to provide a link like you said was simple to see, or is it now for playmaking reasons?If you are unable to debate once you have made a point, then what is the point in you being on a discussion board? Shock horror, someone (me) doesn't agree with the point you are making, but instead of debating it, you are going all defensive and trying to end the discussion. It is funny.
Any, I think having one 10 on the field is more than enough. I think the speed of Martial and Rashford would benefit us much more on the wings than having Mata out there. You mentioned about there being a link to midfield and I have pulled you up on that and mentioned our link is the actual 10 playing through the middle, and because you have failed to acknowledge that you are now changing the argument and saying it is because even though whoever is out right could have playmaking functions. You even when as far as to cocky about by saying "hint"
I don't have enough time to elaborate on my point. Nothing personal mate, sorry. Maybe Jose will play both of them in some important game and it will work. I've just made a guess about Jose's reasoning behind not starting them. Jose is smart enough.
Fair dos mate, just hit me up when you have time to talk some more.
He has improved massively and I'm sure Jose likes his work rate now as well
I partially agree with you but @Summit's point stands. The reason we need to play both Mata and Mkhi is because both are massively insufficient to our needs, in the sense that they do not do the job well enough on their own. One class number 10 might allow us to play Rashford and Martial with Lukaku.
But Mata and Mkhi are currently poor and ineffective in the primary function that they are fielded to fulfill and like a poster above said they are actually inadequate to the task that we have play both of them - Mkhi can't recycle possession and finish whilst Mata lacks drive with the ball and is now conservative with his passing - in fact a more complete player could do what they both do and allow us to play with two wingers/wing forwards. As it stands teams have worked out that to isolate Lukaku you only need to nullify Martial/Rashford which would be more difficult if both were playing imo.
Had a good game against Benfica. Looked confident and was the only outlet for the attack. This is why Rashford has to play with him and Lukaku in a front three because otherwise the attack becomes one dimensional. It would be fluid if all three play as all are capable of playing on top and also on the wings. Lukaku actually looked more comfortable from the right yesterday. If all three start, it makes the attack unpredictable and adaptive to different situations.
He's a flair player and they tend to feck up a lot as they attempt difficult things. Very happy with his performance, his attitude and workrate as well as his creativity are exactly what we need from our wingers. If we had another Martial on the right yesterday we'd have played much better. He looks like his old self again.
He was our only real threat last night.
Nothing coming from the right or through the middle.
Nothing coming from the right or through the middle.
No chance of that happening before Ibrahimović (an disruptive attacking option on the bench) and Pogba (a midfield playmaker) returning.
I don’t understand views like this. Just because a good player is young doesn’t mean they need to improve dramatically or are a failure.
This opinion was stated constantly with regards to Rooney while he put in season after season of great performances befitting an attacker for a top side, as if somehow not elevating his game to the point of being mentioned with football’s all time greats alongside Ronaldo meant he wasn’t fulfilling his potential, had regressed and wasn’t good enough. It’s nonsense. Rooney, Ronaldo, Hazard, Fabregas - all young players who were, around the age of 20, showing enough quality to be a mainstay for their clubs.
Martial is in that bracket. He had a great first season - not ‘for his age’ or any other caveat. He had a great first season - period. This season has seen a return to that player after a very poor year.
Could he improve? Of course there are various aspects of his game that could be better and things he should work on. This, however, is true of all players regardless of age or position.
The truth is, players often don’t improve on the weak points in their game to any great extent. They develop and grow within the confines of their natural abilities and tendencies. We can all hope that Martial more adequately looks to run in behind and provide a penetrative run for his teammates. The likelyhood is that he will only marginally improve this (if at all), and will continually prefer the ball to feet. However, he will consistently cause defenders problems with his direct dribbling from this position, as that is his greatest strength.
In spite of any detrimental aspects of his playing style, he has the requisite quality right now as he is.
Martial is in that group of top Premier League creative forwards with Hazard, Coutinho and Sanchez - he has that level of skill, imagination and individual quality. He does not need to do anything other than what he’s doing now to be considered a top player. He could play as he did in his first season, or as he has been playing so far this season, for the next decade for us and he would be a great player.
The Martial debate continues, and the fact that the debate is continuing should indicate the form and consistency of this guy. Last night he was better, brighter in his play.. and in many ways, his performance last night highlighted the issues that frustrate us as fans. The most pleasing thing for me, was seeing him clip that ball to the far post, with his left foot (Lukaku headed over). A simple, early effective decision and he needs to add this to his game, consistently.
I question his general game 'intelligence' because he seems to over-run the ball, far, far, far too frequently, or attempt things that just don't work. He has the ideas and intent, and the tools, but I do think it is an issue of 'application' with him. I wonder whether he knows what he is best at... does he know when to make a run with the ball, and when not to, when to pass, and how to pass (weight of pass, timing of pass...), when to cross early, when not to. I think he know's or is aware of these things... but only sometimes. Look at the decision making of someone like Hazard. Or Suarez, and yes we have to think on that level, as this is an attacking player at United. Those players make better decisions, far more consistently. And that's what, in my mind, prevents him (Martial) being that player on another level. It's a mental thing and i question whether he will ever get that. Rooney had that at an early age. Ronaldo improved his decision making incredibly... top players make the right decisions on the most consistent basis. Watch Modric. Alonso was amazing at it.. I need to compare Martial with top, top players because I keep hearing that's what he either a: is, or b: could be. What he does have on his side, is youth.. he is only 21, and that's why you hope he is taking all the positive information around him in.
I do like Anthony Martial and think he could be a superb player. But the questions are consistently asked about him , because he regularly presents these inconsistent performances. I am not interested in commentators who just wish to suggest some player was 'brilliant, unplayable, outstanding, the little genius.. ' etc every week. Martial wasn't brilliant last night, he was good, dangerous yes, but he wasn't brilliant.
I question his general game 'intelligence' because he seems to over-run the ball, far, far, far too frequently, or attempt things that just don't work. He has the ideas and intent, and the tools, but I do think it is an issue of 'application' with him. I wonder whether he knows what he is best at... does he know when to make a run with the ball, and when not to, when to pass, and how to pass (weight of pass, timing of pass...), when to cross early, when not to. I think he know's or is aware of these things... but only sometimes. Look at the decision making of someone like Hazard. Or Suarez, and yes we have to think on that level, as this is an attacking player at United. Those players make better decisions, far more consistently. And that's what, in my mind, prevents him (Martial) being that player on another level. It's a mental thing and i question whether he will ever get that. Rooney had that at an early age. Ronaldo improved his decision making incredibly... top players make the right decisions on the most consistent basis. Watch Modric. Alonso was amazing at it.. I need to compare Martial with top, top players because I keep hearing that's what he either a: is, or b: could be. What he does have on his side, is youth.. he is only 21, and that's why you hope he is taking all the positive information around him in.
I do like Anthony Martial and think he could be a superb player. But the questions are consistently asked about him , because he regularly presents these inconsistent performances. I am not interested in commentators who just wish to suggest some player was 'brilliant, unplayable, outstanding, the little genius.. ' etc every week. Martial wasn't brilliant last night, he was good, dangerous yes, but he wasn't brilliant.
I am not into deep thinking analysis. Going with what I see here.
Simple fact is Martial shows talent and deserves minutes, but is highly overrated. At his age and with the game time he is getting, I expect him to have the same output as Sane or Sterling, who he should be compared with. Sure, they are in a better team, but their individual game is well-developed as well and they score goals on a regular basis.
We simply give Martial 8/10 ratings whenever he shows good movement, or dribbles past a defender, etc. That is overrating him. Without actual end-product, all these flashy skills are useless.
He can be given time, but he needs to massively improve in comparison to his peers like the ones mentioned above, more consistency is required. He had a decent game last night, but he needs to do much more than that.
Simple fact is Martial shows talent and deserves minutes, but is highly overrated. At his age and with the game time he is getting, I expect him to have the same output as Sane or Sterling, who he should be compared with. Sure, they are in a better team, but their individual game is well-developed as well and they score goals on a regular basis.
We simply give Martial 8/10 ratings whenever he shows good movement, or dribbles past a defender, etc. That is overrating him. Without actual end-product, all these flashy skills are useless.
He can be given time, but he needs to massively improve in comparison to his peers like the ones mentioned above, more consistency is required. He had a decent game last night, but he needs to do much more than that.
Pogba part i can understand as he can single handedly link defence to attack with a barn storming run or awesome long ball. But Zlatan argument I dont get, even if he takes on the role of impact sub from Martial or Rashford what impact will he be able to make in a game that is already moving slow or has low tempo. Than again one of the the two will be relegated to the bench to raise tempo late in the match. IMO waiting till Zlatan's return for an option off the bench at the expense of a potentially fluid attack is not the most wisest of decisions.
The important thing is you have a different option on the bench, not so much it has to provide more speed. Ibrahimović physical impact on a already tired defense can't be understated. Of course, physicality and height are limited options, but speed by itself doesn't always work either.
I see them both as regulars but don't think Martial or Deschamps see it the same way as in the league he has one of the lowest minutes from the attackers at the top 6 teams.
He plays often in the Champions League and the Cup but to break his way back into the national team I think he'd need to play more in the league and for Deschamps to be sacked.
As for the consistency argument, I think both he and Rashford need an extended run in the team together to see the best from them. Right now both have a good game or two followed by one that isn't so good. I get the points about not needing to change what is working so far with one starting and the other on the bench, and if both start we won't have a pacy option on the bench but it isn't an issue other teams seem to have. They start their best players and so should we imo. We can't continue this rotation forever as it'll just result in one of them feeling the need to move to play more regularly.
He has a higher rate of efficiency than either sterling or sane so I'm really confused why your talking like he isn't hitting their numbers. He has a higher assist/goal rate than either of them.
Was talking about all-round game, I suppose the term "output" was confusing. They seem to be more intelligent in their decision making for one thing, from the little I have seen of them this season.
Like I said, it was just a mild observation. He is overrated slightly here and needs to improve, but compared to Mata or Mkhi, him and Rashford are the least of our problems.
Apart from that terrible penalty he played well.
I was not sure why he was rated so high for yesterday. Though he did well, but he over-dribbled and his final output was a bit below average.
Regularly posts videos of him and his daughter on Insta. Last season, there were reports he was hardly seeing her.
People underestimate the effect these kinds of things can have on a person's career.
People underestimate the effect these kinds of things can have on a person's career.
Yeah, he was imposing Martial Law.
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