[Dobbs]

I was referring to dropping Lukaku for Martial or pushing Rashford to the right just to get Martial in the team.

Nobody is saying do this just to get Martial in the team. You're misrepresenting the argument.

The main benefit of playing both would be the improvement on the right Rashford would create. With Martial hopefully maintaining the left side to the level both have been playing at so far.

 

[haram]

Nobody is saying do this just to get Martial in the team. You're misrepresenting the argument.

The main benefit of playing both would be the improvement on the right Rashford would create. With Martial hopefully maintaining the left side to the level both have been playing at so far.

The point of having Mata on the right is so that Valencia can go in the outside and Mata can come inside, and help the midfield. If Rashford is on the right he has to go on the outside more. Martial will continue to play in a similar fashion to today when up against teams who sit deeper. Everything would be so predictable.

 

[Dobbs]

The point of having Mata on the right is so that Valencia can go in the outside and Mata can come inside, and help the midfield. If Rashford is on the right he has to go on the outside more. Martial will continue to play in a similar fashion to today when up against teams who sit deeper. Everything would be so predictable.

Fine if that's how you see it. Though how you can watch game after game and still think Mata on the right is working is beyond me.

But understand, those asking for both to play aren't doing so just to get Martial in the team. That's simply not true. Its because we believe the team as a whole will benefit.

 

[Sayros]

This was a bad game by the whole team, Martial being no exception. What I don't get is the immediate 'I told you so' rhetoric. It's almost a response to a perceived love of Martial over the well-being of the club. The two are not mutually exclusive, neither is support for Martial and Rashford. So far, they both have been most effective coming off the bench for the other. Rashford has had poor games as a starter where Martial would come in and score/assist, and vice-versa. Martial is definitely a polarizing figure here.

What is undeniable, is that Martial has an ability with his dribbling, and ability to get past players, that other players on the team simply do not have. He has shown an improved awareness, he is capable of being effective even in games like this last one. It was just a poor game, and his petulance suggests there's something else going on off-the-field. Whether it's talent or personality-related, Tony has a much shorter leash with Mourinho than others. When you have inferior players like Lingard who bring nothing to the game that Martial himself couldn't, even on a bad day. This is what keeps this thread so active, more so than just a circlejerk of Martial's godly abilities.

 

[Red_toad]

So Martial isn't a good starter, but was excellent under Van Gaal as our best attacking player, who pretty much started every game? Come on people you can't change history.

He was indeed poor against Huddersfield. But personally would love to see him and Rashford starting on the wings, would say lack of striking options is forcing Jose to make it one or the other. So far this season Rashford is looking the worthy starter, lad has so much fight and desire in him.

 

[Janson]

Just watched a replay of the first half. Martial must have lost the ball like 15 times in that half. How anyone can claim he was better than Lingard is beyond me.

 

[haram]

So Martial isn't a good starter, but was excellent under Van Gaal as our best attacking player, who pretty much started every game? Come on people you can't change history.

He was indeed poor against Huddersfield. But personally would love to see him and Rashford starting on the wings, would say lack of striking options is forcing Jose to make it one or the other. So far this season Rashford is looking the worthy starter, lad has so much fight and desire in him.

You have to consider that the system was different under van gaal and that Martial was set up to be our main outlet. He isn't the main man anymore.

 

[breakout67]

Just watched a replay of the first half. Martial must have lost the ball like 15 times in that half. How anyone can claim he was better than Lingard is beyond me.

You won't see deflections like this in other threads (I know because i've been tearing into other players as well). He can't even do the basics right.

Mkhi has a bad game, slated
Lingard is ineffective, slated
Mata has a bad game, slated
Hererra is ineffective, slated

Martial was easily one of our worst performers this game, and this isnt the first time he has been like that. The talent is there but his bottom level is so bad its unbelievable.

 

[ti vu]

Just watched a replay of the first half. Martial must have lost the ball like 15 times in that half. How anyone can claim he was better than Lingard is beyond me.

Lingard lost the ball cheaply and more. The positive Lingard had on Martial is movement in offensive play which would drawn defenders away from other players. However, overall it didn't help much since our team as a whole ain't tidy enough this game to make use of the extra breathing space movement can give.

 

[OohAahMartial]

Stupidity and immaturity really cost him today. Totally played into the hands of Huddersfield play acting with his yellow card. That anger and emotion affected his concentration for the rest of the half, whereby he was one late tackle away from a red card and had to be replaced.

Needs to grow up.

Nail on head. They got to him and he lost the mental battle. He sometimes seems cool and emotionless but I think inside he actually is not mentally strong, one just has to look at his expressions when he misses a shot to see him beating himself up and losing confidence. Seems the sort of player whose confidence drops every time he's not picked or when substituted. And this carries over into the opportunities he does get. While I think Martial has more natural talent than Rashford, no doubt Rashford has the better mentality--which is more important at the top level.

 

[TypeR]

Needs to vary his game more. The entire first half he was trying to cut in, and played right into Huddersfield's defensive setup. Every time he did that, 3-4 players would converge on him. It's no surprise that he kept losing the ball.

I'm not sure why he didn't just go around the outside where there's space, which he has shown to be capable of doing with quality before.

 

[Adisa]

Needs to learn from that.

 

[prtk0811]

Martial will not shine on the wing under mourinho's tactics. He does not have the natural game suited to it, And he is finding it difficult to adapt to it.

He is a left sided striker who is deadly around the box and needs time to dribble with the ball to create chances, He cant even reach attacking areas with defensive duties asked off him and the ball circulation does not find him in right areas in attack.

Its a no brainer and no surprize his best came in a 343 system in the champions league where he had no defensive duties because of a wing back. He has to be used better. This cant continue. Should be deployed in a 3412 system as a striker along with lukaku.

 

[roonster09]

Martial will not shine on the wing under mourinho's tactics. He does not have the natural game suited to it, And he is finding it difficult to adapt to it.

He is a left sided striker who is deadly around the box and needs time to dribble with the ball to create chances, He cant even reach attacking areas with defensive duties asked off him and the ball circulation does not find him in right areas in attack.

Its a no brainer and no surprize his best came in a 343 system in the champions league where he had no defensive duties because of a wing back. He has to be used better. This cant continue. Should be deployed in a 3412 system as a striker along with lukaku.

Martial had near 0 defensive duties yesterday, he played in attacking position.

 

[prtk0811]

Martial had near 0 defensive duties yesterday, he played in attacking position.

You can never have zero defensive duties on the wing under mourinho. When you have one, players are too deep when they should just be playing on the shoulder of the full back to get in behind. WHen he gets the ball he is too deep and also lacks time and space to do something with it as he gets doubled up in few seconds the moment he tries to dribble past.

WHile rashford makes off the ball attacking runs so he gets more penetration than martial.

 

[roonster09]

You can never have zero defensive duties on the wing under mourinho. When you have one, players are too deep when they should just be playing on the shoulder of the full back to get in behind. WHen he gets the ball he is too deep and also lacks time and space to do something with it as he gets doubled up in few seconds the moment he tries to dribble past.

WHile rashford makes off the ball attacking runs so he gets more penetration than martial.

Check yesterday's game, Huddersfield were in their own half whole game, how can Martial have any defensive duties when we had near 78% possession.

 

[prtk0811]

Check yesterday's game, Huddersfield were in their own half whole game, how can Martial have any defensive duties when we had near 78% possession.

How many times he got in behind though? Lukaku was isolated for majority of time. His movement is not a winger esque.

 

[roonster09]

How many times he got in behind though? Lukaku was isolated for majority of time. His movement is not a winger esque.

If he didn't get in behind that means he didn't make runs and love to receive the ball deep and have a go at defense. Nothing to do with defensive role or responsibilities.

 

[kouroux]

Needs to vary his game more. The entire first half he was trying to cut in, and played right into Huddersfield's defensive setup. Every time he did that, 3-4 players would converge on him. It's no surprise that he kept losing the ball.

I'm not sure why he didn't just go around the outside where there's space, which he has shown to be capable of doing with quality before.

I also noticed and said it before on these boards (same with his finishing). He does well what he knows but he doesn't change enough.

 

[spontaneus1]

How many times he got in behind though? Lukaku was isolated for majority of time. His movement is not a winger esque.

That's on him and his own lack of movement though, the one thing that annoys me about him is how he stands waiting for the ball to feet.

 

[SteveW]

You won't see deflections like this in other threads (I know because i've been tearing into other players as well). He can't even do the basics right.

Mkhi has a bad game, slated
Lingard is ineffective, slated
Mata has a bad game, slated
Hererra is ineffective, slated

Martial was easily one of our worst performers this game, and this isnt the first time he has been like that. The talent is there but his bottom level is so bad its unbelievable.

To be fair to him, most teams identify him as the main threat and double/triple mark him. He rarely got the ball without two players right on him yesterday. I don't think there's a player in our squad who would have a good game in that situation. That's why I keep repeatedly banging on about starting Rashford and Martial together. It's too easy to set up against us when we've only one dangerous player behind Lukaku.

 

[SteveW]

Martial had near 0 defensive duties yesterday, he played in attacking position.

Well, that's certainly not true. He got back and covered/tackled well around his own box 3 or 4 times yesterday. Doubt if he was just doing it for the craic.

 

[catmandeu]

I think we have to be brave enough and let the trio of martial, lukaku and rashford play together while keeping mata or Mikhitaryan as our number 10. Then we can have 2 deep lying midfielders in matic and herrera and it won't matter.

And we have to give them this freedom of working on their own. The only problem with this plan is that we need decent full backs.

 

[prtk0811]

That's on him and his own lack of movement though, the one thing that annoys me about him is how he stands waiting for the ball to feet.

The onus is also on the manager and us as united to use him to his strengths suited to his natural game. He is failing to adapt since last year is enough indication that he aint progressing like he should because he is forced to play different from his strenghts. If he's caught out defensively by being too high Positionally he'll be slated by the manager and he counter balances that and remains deep and can rarely get inside the box in attacking areas.

We can all blame him and sell him , but he'll be a force in any tactics suting to his strenghts like a barcelona or bayern sides.

 

[SteveW]

I think we have to be brave enough and let the trio of martial, lukaku and rashford play together while keeping mata or Mikhitaryan as our number 10. Then we can have 2 deep lying midfielders in matic and herrera and it won't matter.

And we have to give them this freedom of working on their own. The only problem with this plan is that we need decent full backs.

This but with Pogba instead of Mhki as soon as he's back. The below is solid, yet attacking. That front 4 have serious pace, power and skill. Rashford and Martial could swap sides. This picks itself as far as I'm concerned. No idea why Jose can't see it

..........Matic, Herrera,
...............Pogba
Rashford Lukaku Martial

 

[catmandeu]

This but with Pogba instead of Mhki as soon as he's back. The below is solid, yet attacking. That front 4 have serious pace, power and skill. Rashford and Martial could swap sides. This picks itself as far as I'm concerned. No idea why Jose can't see it

..........Matic, Herrera,
...............Pogba
Rashford Lukaku Martial

Yeah agreed on pogba. Giving him freedom to make the game is why we paid so much for him. However i think jose is afraid that if plan A fails, he won't have a plan B. But that is wrong as his plan B is hoof the ball, and that will require fellaini more than others.

 

[LoneStar]

How can you blame Mourinho for subbing him off? He looked more likely to get a red than score or create a chance for us. Till now he has only been good when he comes on in the 60th minute against tired legs. He has been pretty shite in all the games he has started, except for that one league cup game.

You could immediately notice the difference when Rashford came on. I wouldn't say that Jose is the best manager for his development (far from it), but he has to impose himself more in games. He doesn't look arsed one bit.

 

[prtk0811]

If he didn't get in behind that means he didn't make runs and love to receive the ball deep and have a go at defense. Nothing to do with defensive role or responsibilities.

He rarely makes those runs as its not in his natural game. Then you need to play very high to be effective in penetration and dribbling to cause any damage , but as he does not want to get caught defensively he stays to deep and fails to push up as he;'ll be slated by the manager.

 

[prtk0811]

Must Start playing a 343 to get the best out ofour attack when you have a 2 men midfeild. 4231 is just not balanced enough in attack with pogba missing.

 

[roonster09]

Well, that's certainly not true. He got back and covered/tackled well around his own box 3 or 4 times yesterday. Doubt if he was just doing it for the craic.

Not sure if serious. Just because he covered 2-3 times doesnt mean he had defensive responsibility considering we had so much possession. It's just a way to tell he nearly completely in attacking position.

 

[roonster09]

He rarely makes those runs as its not in his natural game. Then you need to play very high to be effective in penetration and dribbling to cause any damage , but as he does not want to get caught defensively he stays to deep and fails to push up as he;'ll be slated by the manager.

Ashley fecking Young was playing so high up and you think Martial was worried he will be caught defensively. It's ok to blame players sometimes when they are awful.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Has anyone posted a gif of the “tackle” that got him all riled up? They showed a replay on MOTD and it looked horrendous. Knee high and nowhere near the ball. If he’d made a meal of it yer man could have been sent off. In a way he ended up punished for not being a drama queen (and for Lee Mason being crap at his job).

 

[spiriticon]

Because as a sub, he plays against a right back who is knackered, having just chased Rashford around for past 70 mins.
Much like Solskjaer used to exploit tired defenders.

Thought it was quite obvious?

Hmmm yes that is true. I guess what frustrates me is that he so obviously has the talent to have an impact from the start, but consistently struggles to do so.

 

[SteveW]

Not sure if serious. Just because he covered 2-3 times doesnt mean he had defensive responsibility considering we had so much possession. It's just a way to tell he nearly completely in attacking position.

Not sure if you're serious. Was he not expected to do that defending? Does that to equal defensive responsibility? You're actually questioning whether I'm taking this piss for suggesting that? Weird

 

[prtk0811]

Ashley fecking Young was playing so high up and you think Martial was worried he will be caught defensively. It's ok to blame players sometimes when they are awful.

Young has the workrate to get up and down the pitch and be positionally perfect defensively and offensively. Martial can only do one job effectively at a time to be effective. So he gets caught out in the middle. Yes , he is worried abouut getting caught defensively.

 

[roonster09]

Not sure if you're serious. Was he not expected to do that defending? Does that to equal defensive responsibility? You're actually questioning whether I'm taking this piss for suggesting that? Weird

Every winger does defensive duty in different ways. Just because he dropped deep couple of times doesn't mean he had defensive responsibilities considering we had 75% plus possession and he was in attacking third all game.

 

[SteveW]

Every winger does defensive duty in different ways. Just because he dropped deep couple of times doesn't mean he had defensive responsibilities considering we had 75% plus possession and he was in attacking third all game.

That makes no sense. He wasn't in the attacking third all game. Every winger does defensive duty but he didn't have a defensive duty? Just stop would ya

 

[roonster09]

Young has the workrate to get up and down the pitch and be positionally perfect defensively and offensively. Martial can only do one job effectively at a time to be effective. So he gets caught out in the middle. Yes , he is worried abouut getting caught defensively.

These are just excuses for his poor performance. If we are talking spot about Liverpool game then yes what you said would be correct.

 

[roonster09]

That makes no sense. He wasn't in the attacking third all game. Every winger does defensive duty but he didn't have a defensive duty? Just stop would ya

Every winger has defensive duty but Martial had minimal defending to do as we were camped in their half almost all game. Better stick to "ffs why not Rashford and Martial" type posts.

 

[SteveW]

Every winger has defensive duty but Martial had minimal defending to do as we were camped in their half almost all game. Better stick to "ffs why not Rashford and Martial" type posts.

Contradict yourself. Then condescend and laugh at the other poster who points it out. Some man