[Redlyn]

People are forgetting by coming on late martial adds a completely different dimension to us in the last quarter of a match and defenders just practically surrender at this point.

It's working beautifully so far. We are scoring 3-4 goals each match so there is no reason to complain or change it. Rashford is a very good player as well. I hope martial gets more minutes as his talent deserves it but I trust the manager on this one. As long as the team is winning its all good. The season is long (and Winter is coming). His time will come.

 

[yfoFC]

Ronaldo just came off the bench to inspire Portugal to victory, seems like Santos has found his supersub so no need to tamper with a working formula eh?

#Caflogic

 

[Hawks2008]

Ronaldo just came off the bench to inspire Portugal to victory, seems like Santos has found his supersub so no need to tamper with a working formula eh?

#Caflogic

Only does well against tired legs...

 

[Gibb11]

I do get the impression Martial is not the most hardworking/work ethic minded team player in our squad and I believe Mourinho management of him has brought the best out of him recently, I think Mourinho has pushed him aswell as Rashford pushing him as they are essentialy competing against each other for one spot in lineup. To me thats very good management. Remember most games Martial has started he didnt set the game alight unlike his direct substitute but its been mostly vice versa. Rashford to me has shown he has more useful qualities to the team in the first 11 than Martial has at this moment, despite arguably Martial better attributes.

I think the people who are concerned he will leave, Mourinho not a fan etc is all bull in my opinion, and right now hes getting the best out of him which hes not seen before. All is fine here for now

 

[Adisa]

I do get the impression Martial is not the most hardworking/work ethic minded team player in our squad and I believe Mourinho management of him has brought the best out of him recently, I think Mourinho has pushed him aswell as Rashford pushing him as they are essentialy competing against each other for one spot in lineup. To me thats very good management. Remember most games Martial has started he didnt set the game alight unlike his direct substitute but its been mostly vice versa. Rashford to me has shown he has more useful qualities to the team in the first 11 than Martial has at this moment, despite arguably Martial better attributes.

I think the people who are concerned he will leave, Mourinho not a fan etc is all bull in my opinion, and right now hes getting the best out of him which hes not seen before. All is fine here for now

Smalling said he's been leading in training.
An unhappy player won't be looking and playing the way he does.
Mourinho and the player said they had a chat during preseason.
That discussion would have included how he can cement his place in the XI.

 

[Santoryo]

I do get the impression Martial is not the most hardworking/work ethic minded team player in our squad and I believe Mourinho management of him has brought the best out of him recently, I think Mourinho has pushed him aswell as Rashford pushing him as they are essentialy competing against each other for one spot in lineup. To me thats very good management. Remember most games Martial has started he didnt set the game alight unlike his direct substitute but its been mostly vice versa. Rashford to me has shown he has more useful qualities to the team in the first 11 than Martial has at this moment, despite arguably Martial better attributes.

I think the people who are concerned he will leave, Mourinho not a fan etc is all bull in my opinion, and right now hes getting the best out of him which hes not seen before. All is fine here for now

"Most games Martial has started he didn't set the game alight". A statement on a player who's had 2 MOTM performances over his last 3 start this past month.

You basically just made up this notion of Martial not doing well when he starts games. Same with your point about him not working hard for the team.

Basically your arguments are completely wrong given they're based and drawn from fallacies.

 

[yfoFC]

"Most games Martial has started he didn't set the game alight". A statement on a player who's had 2 MOTM performances over his last 3 start this past month.

You basically just made up this notion of Martial not doing well when he starts games. Same with your point about him not working hard for the team.

Basically your arguments are completely wrong given they're based and drawn from fallacies.

This, once a narrative is in place it becomes fact even when there's ample evidence to the contrary

 

[BluesJr]

This, once a narrative is in place it becomes fact even when there's ample evidence to the contrary

This is especially true now in the media and in the narrative of the PL. Players reputations are solely based on social media and the press and not much about their performances, in a lot of cases.

 

[DWelbz19]

Bollocks. EVERYTHING is down to Megamind Mourinho.

 

[Dobbs]

No. I said he was underwhelming by his standards last season and have said he's good this season. In fact I've said the opposite, saying the change in formation and play style might not have been easy for him and wouldn't have suited his style.

Given he's adapted and more suited to Jose's tactics it's only logical his performances would improve as a result. I wouldn't place Martial's poor form last season on Jose's feet, nor his improvements solely on his feet either. Having better players like Lukaku and Matic in and around the team also helps.

At what point does his shit performances start being his fault?

Along with the other year and a bit of shit form, sure do.Martial's form turned to shit that season long before Jose came in. He was woeful at the Euros, for example.

Very much reads like you're putting last season on Martial rather than Mourinho's tactics.

This season's good form you've already put down(at least partially) to Mourinho and having Lukaku and Matic in the team. A slight reluctance to credit the player himself.

So really it sounds very much like what you criticised @Santoryo for. Just from the opposite end of the argument.

 

[Santoryo]

Rumours of Barcelona trying to lure him.

Could be fake or might be solid but the take away here is that such rumours are going to keep piling up as long as he's seen as a player playing a sub role here.

Like I said, he keeps this form and still finds himself feeding on crumbles, clubs will come knocking and those believing that he's content and will still be content with this part time role in the team are clearly deluding themselves.

 

[Damien]

Rumours of Barcelona trying to lure him.

So he'd go from being on the bench for United to being on the bench for Barcelona. They have Dembele, Suarez and Messi as their front three and they won't play him ahead of their 100M+ player when fit.

 

[Gibb11]

"Most games Martial has started he didn't set the game alight". A statement on a player who's had 2 MOTM performances over his last 3 start this past month.

You basically just made up this notion of Martial not doing well when he starts games. Same with your point about him not working hard for the team.

Basically your arguments are completely wrong given they're based and drawn from fallacies.

Burton Albion and a terrible CSKA Moscow side, granted you can only perform who you play against but their clearly not the level of opposition were really going to measure him properly in the long run, ''most'' was clearly the wrong word to use. Still adamant Rashford contributes more to the team particularly defensively. For me a case in point was against Southampton away when we were completely outplayed and heavily under the cosh, Rashford put in a brilliant shift down the left side almost playing full back at times and working his socks off something I can't see Martial doing yet, this massively helped us keeping the game at 1-0.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

So he'd go from being on the bench for United to being on the bench for Barcelona. They have Dembele, Suarez and Messi as their front three and they won't play him ahead of their 100M+ player when fit.

If he goes there he will be a Suarez understudy/replacement, no? Martial can play both CF and LWF to a high standard so game time is hardly going to be an issue if he joins them.

That said, with the referendum and all, Barca is hardly a step up given the turmoils. Bayern will need to replace Ribery/Robben and even Lewandowski in the next couple of years so if anything that is much more likely. Spots may open up in Real as well with Ronaldo winding down, Bale a sicknote and Benzema declining.

 

[haram]

So he'd go from being on the bench for United to being on the bench for Barcelona. They have Dembele, Suarez and Messi as their front three and they won't play him ahead of their 100M+ player when fit.

He's better than all three.

 

[Santoryo]

So he'd go from being on the bench for United to being on the bench for Barcelona. They have Dembele, Suarez and Messi as their front three and they won't play him ahead of their 100M+ player when fit.

It doesn't work like that. First of all Dembele has a long term injury and given the opportunity Martial is talented enough to push for a starting spot, he'd be competing with Dembele not Messi.

Not to mention that if he were to be benched it'd be for players putting in better performances than him, not a situation where he has to watch inferior players than him play week in week out while he's used as a supersub.

Just to make things clear, I don't belive in those rumours but if they were true there is definitely a chance that he'd be tempted to go and his situation there would be much better than his right now.

It's better fighting for a place with other top players fairly rather than fighting it with inferior players who happen to have the manager's trust while you don't have it.

 

[Adisa]

Rumours of Barcelona trying to lure him.

Could be fake or might be solid but the take away here is that such rumours are going to keep piling up as long as he's seen as a player playing a sub role here.

Like I said, he keeps this form and still finds himself feeding on crumbles, clubs will come knocking and those believing that he's content and will still be content with this part time role in the team are clearly deluding themselves.

We've played only a month and a half of the season. Claims that he's going tonspend the whole season as a sub role is a bit of a stretch.

 

[Santoryo]

We've played only a month and a half of the season. Claims that he's going tonspend the whole season as a sub role is a bit of a stretch.

Which is why is said "IF" his current situation continues. I don't claim to know the future though we can always tempt ourselves to make assumptions which are in no way claims that they'll definitely come to be true, based on past happening.

Truth be told, Martial situation simply has to improve and more trust from the manager is the start. After the month he's had, coming out as our best player he deserves to be rewarded and the biggest and most appropriate one would be gaining trust from his manager which means he can hope to be a starter in games like the upcoming Liverpool one.

If Mourinho continues with his gameplays where Martial has to take back seats for important and big fixtures then his situation hasn't improved.

Honestly a start against Liverpool would be a big step in the trust from the manager I'm talking about and Martial certainly deserves it by this point.

 

[Raees]

If Rashford has been preferred option all season then surely he will be starter v Liverpool?

 

[Damien]

If he goes there he will be a Suarez understudy/replacement, no? Martial can play both CF and LWF to a high standard so game time is hardly going to be an issue if he joins them.

That said, with the referendum and all, Barca is hardly a step up given the turmoils. Bayern will need to replace Ribery/Robben and even Lewandowski in the next couple of years so if anything that is much more likely. Spots may open up in Real as well with Ronaldo winding down, Bale a sicknote and Benzema declining.

Either way he'd still be mostly on the bench.

If Rashford has been preferred option all season then surely he will be starter v Liverpool?

Rashford or Lingard.

 

[Womp]

Very much reads like you're putting last season on Martial rather than Mourinho's tactics.

This season's good form you've already put down(at least partially) to Mourinho and having Lukaku and Matic in the team. A slight reluctance to credit the player himself.

So really it sounds very much like what you criticised @Santoryo for. Just from the opposite end of the argument.

Those messages were in response to people blaming Jose for Martial's performances last season. His performances last season absolutely were more on him than they were on Jose, just as his improvements are more on him too. The change in tactics and role in the team didn't help but every players form is for the most part on them.

Managers can influence but at the end of the day a player's form comes down to them. Blaming manager's for a player's shit form, but then refusing to give the same manager credit for improvements in form is rubbish. Like I said, I don't lay Martial's form last season on Jose's feet, nor do I put his improvement in form on his feet. Simply a case of a player adapting to new tactics, playing with better players imo.

 

[OL29]

He's better than all three.

Did Martial sleep with your girlfriend? Your dislike for him is so transparent and frankly weird.

 

[haram]

Did Martial sleep with your girlfriend? Your dislike for him is so transparent and frankly weird.

Trying to give the notion that Barca are in for him some perspective. The hysteria in here, seriously.

For the record, I do not dislike Martial.

 

[Catt]

I'm just going to say that although this is Martial's thread, I love having both him and Rash at Utd. Two exciting, young players with a bright future. Have to say some posters seems quite obsessed and keep going around in cirkles.

 

[Dobbs]

Those messages were in response to people blaming Jose for Martial's performances last season. His performances last season absolutely were more on him than they were on Jose, just as his improvements are more on him too. The change in tactics and role in the team didn't help but every players form is for the most part on them.

Managers can influence but at the end of the day a player's form comes down to them. Blaming manager's for a player's shit form, but then refusing to give the same manager credit for improvements in form is rubbish. It's either one or the other, either the manager does influence the player's form, or he doesn't. You can't pick and choose.

But that's exactly what you've done. Sometimes last season you put on Martial then you claim you've said "the exact opposite." That it was simply a case of new tactics. I've just quoted the posts.

A set of very mixed posts.

 

[Womp]

But that's exactly what you've done. Sometimes last season you put on Martial then you claim you've said "the exact opposite." That it was simply a case of new tactics. I've just quoted the posts.

A set of very mixed posts.

Put on Martial how? By saying his form was down to him and that he needed to improve? If you are genuinely of the opinion that managers should be criticized for players when they're going through bad form and that it is not down to the players themselves, then you're free to maintain that opinion. I don't agree though. Those posts were talking about how Jose was responsible for Martial's form, with me disagreeing, rightly claiming his form at the Euros and early at the start of the season was poor, even though Jose was continuously picking him regardless.

All players are responsible for their own form, but if you're going to criticize managers for a player's bad form, you should also by logic give credit to a manager for an improvement in form. I've never claimed Jose was responsible for Martial's form this season. I've said that he's utilising both him and Rashford well and that as a result we're winning games. Never said anything about Jose being solely responsible for Martial's improvement in form this season.

It's no secret LVG's style suited Martial's abilities as a footballer nor is it a secret that playing with better players improves a player. That's not doing a disservice to Martial, that's reality. Messi wouldn't be as good playing for Blackburn. Martial is responsible for his improvement in form, just as he's responsible for his form last season. The tactics and personnel didn't help, but it's the player's jobs to adapt, something I don't think Martial did as well as some other players last season.

 

[Dobbs]

Put on Martial how? By saying his form was down to him and that he needed to improve? If you are genuinely of the opinion that managers should be criticized for players when they're going through bad form and that it is not down to the players themselves, then you're free to maintain that opinion. I don't agree though. Those posts were talking about how Jose was responsible for Martial's form, with me disagreeing, rightly claiming his form at the Euros and early at the start of the season was poor, even though Jose was continuously picking him regardless.

All players are responsible for their own form, but if you're going to criticize managers for a player's bad form, you should also by logic give credit to a manager for an improvement in form. I've never claimed Jose was responsible for Martial's form this season. I've said that he's utilising both him and Rashford well and that as a result we're winning games. Never said anything about Jose being solely responsible for Martial's improvement in form this season.

It's no secret LVG's style suited Martial's abilities as a footballer nor is it a secret that playing with better players improves a player. That's not doing a disservice to Martial, that's reality. Messi wouldn't be as good playing for Blackburn. Martial is responsible for his improvement in form, just as he's responsible for his form last season. The tactics and personnel didn't help, but it's the player's jobs to adapt, something I don't think Martial did as well as some other players last season.

As in you attribute last season purely down to Martial. I quoted the posts.

I don't disagree with your overall point I just don't think you're sticking to it. From your posts it seems sometimes you argue his form is down to himself, sometimes it's not.

The argument seems to change depending on how he's playing.

 

[fellaini's barber]

Only does well against tired legs...

 

[Womp]

As in you attribute last season purely down to Martial. I quoted the posts.

I don't disagree with your overall point I just don't think you're sticking to it. From your posts it seems sometimes you argue his form is down to himself, sometimes it's not.

The argument seems to change depending on how he's playing.

What I'm trying to suggest From my posts is that his form absolutely is down to himself, good or bad. Of course there are other factors that can influence that though, be it better players, tactics or a manager's influence but at the end of the day it's on him.

I just don't agree with people who put all the blame on managers for a players form but don't give due credit if that form improves. I'm not of the opinion that Jose is solely responsible for either Martial's form from last season or his improvement this therefore I'm not in that camp.

Martial is playing much better this season and he deserves credit for that, but equally he should be held accountable for his form last season. That's effectively my point. Apologies if I couldn't portray my thoughts more clearly.

 

[fellaini's barber]

Burton Albion and a terrible CSKA Moscow side, granted you can only perform who you play against but their clearly not the level of opposition were really going to measure him properly in the long run, ''most'' was clearly the wrong word to use. Still adamant Rashford contributes more to the team particularly defensively. For me a case in point was against Southampton away when we were completely outplayed and heavily under the cosh, Rashford put in a brilliant shift down the left side almost playing full back at times and working his socks off something I can't see Martial doing yet, this massively helped us keeping the game at 1-0.

Sorry but this is bullshit, so he does well against Burton and CSKA because they're poor teams, and still does well against the better teams when he comes in as a sub, I'm sure you probably have a reason for that too, so what else is he fecking suppose to do to start?And what is he not doing that our other attackers are to earn his place? I'd like to know. As for being outplayed by fecking Southampton, do you realise this is as a direct result of having attackers who aren't doing their jobs? Why the hell won't we come 'heavily under the cosh' when our LW is at LB? When your attackers are doing more defending than attacking of course you're going to spend lots of time defending against even shit teams. So the minute we play any half decent team, manage to score, come under pressure, we start playing defensive wingers as defenders and wonder why we're 'under the cosh', what else is supposed to happen if I may ask?

 

[KM]

Why is there talk of Martial leaving? That Barcelona rumors are from MD which are absolutely garbage. He's not even halfway to his signed contract.

 

[KM]

What I'm trying to suggest From my posts is that his form absolutely is down to himself, good or bad. Of course there are other factors that can influence that though, be it better players, tactics or a manager's influence but at the end of the day it's on him.

I just don't agree with people who put all the blame on managers for a players form but don't give due credit if that form improves. I'm not of the opinion that Jose is solely responsible for either Martial's form from last season or his improvement this therefore I'm not in that camp.

Martial is playing much better this season and he deserves credit for that, but equally he should be held accountable for his form last season. That's effectively my point. Apologies if I couldn't portray my thoughts more clearly.

Hundred percent true.

 

[fellaini's barber]

What I'm trying to suggest From my posts is that his form absolutely is down to himself, good or bad. Of course there are other factors that can influence that though, be it better players, tactics or a manager's influence but at the end of the day it's on him.

I just don't agree with people who put all the blame on managers for a players form but don't give due credit if that form improves. I'm not of the opinion that Jose is solely responsible for either Martial's form from last season or his improvement this therefore I'm not in that camp.

Martial is playing much better this season and he deserves credit for that, but equally he should be held accountable for his form last season. That's effectively my point. Apologies if I couldn't portray my thoughts more clearly.

Martial was poor last season, you have to be blinkered to think otherwise. He got his chances and didn't impress at all. That's why its more frustrating to see him do well with his chances this season and still not start

 

[redIndianDevil]

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/foot...tial-Zlatan-Ibrahimovic-La-Liga-Transfer-News

 

[Kearnkoff69]

We should tell Barca and Arsenal to bugger off. With how crazy the market is right now, you don't just let young players with his potential go. He has the makings of greatness, despite a down season last year.

 

[redIndianDevil]

We should tell Barca and Arsenal to bugger off. With how crazy the market is right now, you don't just let young players with his potential go. He has the makings of greatness, despite a down season last year.

I agree but it's also down to Martial and his agent surely he will be angling for a move if he keeps on being a bench option. There is an opening for a left winger in the Barcelona squad.

 

[littleman]

I agree but it's also down to Martial and his agent surely he will be angling for a move if he keeps on being a bench option. There is an opening for a left winger in the Barcelona squad.

Oh man, what if Luke Shaw goes for the opening at Left Back in the Barcelona squad?? We'd have no one left!!

Imagine if Fellaini went to take over from Iniesta!! HOLY HOLD ME MAMA

 

[redIndianDevil]

Oh man, what if Luke Shaw goes for the opening at Left Back in the Barcelona squad?? We'd have no one left!!

Imagine if Fellaini went to take over from Iniesta!! HOLY HOLD ME MAMA

I'll be worried about Shaw and Fellaini joining Barca too if they are linked to Barcelona.

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/foot...tial-Zlatan-Ibrahimovic-La-Liga-Transfer-News

 

[yfoFC]

Martial was poor last season, you have to be blinkered to think otherwise. He got his chances and didn't impress at all. That's why its more frustrating to see him do well with his chances this season and still not start

As much as the overall point is true of martial being indeed poor last season, I'd still like us to have some perspective on that.

Apart from the first month or so where martial started 6 of our first 7 games (in which he was indeed poor), he wasn't given his fair crack of the whip to establish himself unlike the leeway enjoyed by rashford.

One particular example of how Jose messed up martial's management last season was when he promised martial game time vs Hull if martial performed vs wigan. Here's Jose before the wigan match

‘But he will play Sunday and, if on Sunday he plays magnificently, he will play against Hull City in the next match. It’s simple.’
http://googleweblight.com/i?u=http:...gainst-wigan-6409903/&grqid=b0puQVce&hl=en-NG

Martial duly performed that match with 2 assists and a goal wrongly chalked off for bastian's supposed wrongdoing

So what happened to the promise of game time from the manager afterwards? Martial didn't even get a single lick of a minute while Rooney, mata and smalling were introduced ahead of him much less him starting the match, I wonder if 2 assists doesn't qualify for "magnificence" in the manager's books. How can one stay motivated to play and put in his best subsequently if he can't trust his manager to be fair to him and give him his just rewards?

Compare that with rashford going about 20 matches without scoring in the league from September to April but was still in the manager's good books

Of course we can all sit here and talk about martial not giving his all, being affected by off the field issues and what not but the truth of the matter is that he wasn't given the chances and backing to fully cement his place and it is telling that per minutes he was our most productive attacking player bar zlatan in his "poor season"

You might say all that was last season but just this supercup against Madrid we were looking for a goal with a spare sub to use but still Jose doesn't turn to the man who ripped Madrid apart just mere weeks earlier, that's not building up a player.. It's plain injustice.

Martial has played himself back into the team and forced Jose's hand at the moment and I refuse to give credit to him for the boy's displays this season. I just hope martial can force his way into regular starting berths but one thing is for sure, it won't be because of the manager's handling or some grand master plan of his.. It will be because of martial's talent alone and not the manager's trust/backing

 

[Santoryo]

I would also gladly put Martial start of last season's poor performances on himself. He started quite poorly and Mourinho rightly dropped him from the line up.

However everything else after were mostly influenced by Mourinho awful management of the lad. After getting dropped one could tell Martial wanted a way back into the line up and by then Mourinho was already mismanaging him.

Then came December where he was promised to feature in future games if he perfomed and actually did perform yet got dropped regardless. That's when Mourinho's mismanagement of Martial last season reached its peak.

I remember Martial performing well in all the cup games he was given and followed then with good outing on the PL to then get dropped. The Boro game comes to mind. The lad puts in a MOTM performance, helped us continue our run of wins yet Mourinho dropped him the following game with a pathetic excuse as to Martial being exhausted. I was quite disgusted reading that nonsense, it would have been better to just not say anything.

After that period happened, those were the signs of things to come. If after having his best period of the season(December-beginning January) didn't help him improve the situation, what would happen if he stop putting in brilliant performances but just merely put in ok ones. The answer is obvious.

After going through that, it's no surprise that a player might lose confidence and performances would only get more inconsistent.

Meanwhile Rashford went God knows how many months without a goal and hardly even put in assists yet was continuously put back into the team until toward the end of the season where he managed to finally find some form. Then people turned that into a narrative that Rashford had a consistent and good year while Martial underperformed

If anything people should commend Martial for putting himself in a situition where a manager that clearly doesn't rate him that highly is forced to even give him those sub appearances he's getting this season(At this point it's clear that Mourinho is giving Martial game time due to fans expectations rather what he'd genuinely like to do). Its testament to his abilities. He's fighting a losing battle yet he's somehow still in the game.