No idea what you mean but that said, I'm not talking about isolated games or incidents. IMO the lad could be a world beater but like his current managers who train him, he needs to be more brave and give more. The comparison with Lingard although he's no where near Martial's ceiling, he's fearless and gives 100%. Despite the change of managers, Lingard is never far away from the starting 11.
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No idea what you mean but that said, I'm not talking about isolated games or incidents. IMO the lad could be a world beater but like his current managers who train him, he needs to be more brave and give more. The comparison with Lingard although he's no where near Martial's ceiling, he's fearless and gives 100%. Despite the change of managers, Lingard is never far away from the starting 11.
Lol why shouldn't the manager create a system to compliment one of our best players? Aren't we now a 1 man team that's dependent on a 35 year old?
How do you know he wants Martial to make more off the ball run? Anyway Martial is good at beating players from a standing start. So let him do that. What's the point of forcing him to do something he isn't good at? Or perhaps Mourinho wants Martial to beat the entire team by himself without any help from his fullback because he's scared of counter attacks.
Carrick played badly against Liverpool. Hence he obviously needed a break. And yes, I am saying Martial played badly against Liverpool. Did feck all after the first 10-15 minutes. That "tormented" RB had a very easy game from that point on and should have been the weakest link in their team. Instead, everything good we did came down our right. As usual.
Anyway. Your mind is clearly made up. So keep banging that drum. Whatever.
Exactly. No player really claimed that LW spot but Martial certainly wasn't the worst of them that he couldn't even make the bench against Stoke.
If anything when he's playing we're all excited when he gets the ball because we know what he's capable of.
Can't say about other posters here but i certainly don't get the same feeling when Rooney, Lingard or Mikhi are playing in that position, tho Rashford as well knows to produce some magic there.
I've no idea what you're on about but my point is very simple. He needs to work harder when he doesn't have the ball. Just like all top wide players are expected to.
Martial was our best attacking outlet in that game. And to say that the fullback had him in his pocket is laughable to say the least. He had 4 players around him - yet he played much better than the others.
The best teams aren't just reliant on one player. Pep's Barca didn't just have Messi run through the entire defense, late 90s Juve didn't just give the ball to ADP and Zidane and let them do their thing etc etc. It's up to Martial if he wants his ceiling to be the star of a team competing for 4th place, or if he wants to win silverware year in and out. That's where we're trying to get back as United.
We are equally dependent on Zlatan and Pogba, arguably even Valencia too, but that's another topic.
But Zlatan was also quite poor against Liverpool and he's also 35 yet he didn't deserve a break? Pogba was dreadful and he was in the team?
Why are you constantly ignoring the fact that Martial was up against 3 or more players for the majority of the Liverpool game? When he was 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2 even he made easy work of their RB.
They already are and this must be happening for a reason. IMO he's doesn't offer enough. I think he's a bit like Sturridge, on his day unplayable but just not enough of those days. Also he doesn't work hard enough defensively although I think he's tried hard to improve on that....
You are right, but as long as we don't have a Carrick replacement, it's not like we're spoiled for choice in that CDM-DLP position.
Mkhi on the left to accommodate Mata since that's (the right) where he's best at in that false winger role.
The plan was to pepper their goal with shots. Which is what we did. Again, we just suck at finishing but we had no less than 5 clear cut chances last night.
That's obviously you Pogue. If you can't see, even from the video that Martial was triple marked - then you have an agenda. Klopp gave Martial more respect in that game than Mourinho has throughout the season.
You're acting as if Martial has been absolutely wank these last few games for him to deserve dropping out of the squad entirely. The argument about him not lighting up the place this year for him to be left out for the Stoke game is ridiculously poor. We look at the player recent form and go from there and Martial has been among the best performers in our team in recent weeks whenever he's been called upon.
An average game against Liverpool where everyone wasn't up for it isn't enough an argument to justify him being completely dropped out of the squad, especially given his recent performances.
The argument about him being poor throughout the season people are bringing in to explain Mourinho's handling of Martial in recent weeks doesn't quite add up given Martial still got dropped after a MOTM performance and entirely left out of the squad despite him being one of our better performers in recent weeks, the Liverpool game aside which had everyone sub-par.
I have nothing against Mourinho's decisions and is free to handle his squad as he sees fit with whichever method he adopts but seeing people on these boards write some straw like arguments going as far as painting our own players in bad light(Shaw, Martial etc) just because they don't want to hear people moan about the manager's decisions is quite unsettling.
Mourinho's handling of certain players might be controversial to some whether right or wrong but for the love of God, people have to stop coming up with random unfavorable stories about our players to create a perfect scenario where there isn't any controversy regarding the manager's decisions.
Big question is if Mourinho would look for Carrick's replacement or will he look to make us not dependent of him as much?
If we're playing Mata on the right than we needed Carrick like no other because he would than enable Herrera to go further forward and he along with Valencia would open spaces for Mata to expose.
5 is a bit too optimistic
The thing that I do not understand about half of the posters here and their logic is why do they think they know better and understand the game better than probably the best manager in the world? If football is so easy for you and you know which players should play, how the team should play, what tactics we should use, why aren't you managing in the premierleague, earning millions. Until Ancelotti, Guardiola, Heynckes, etc started writing here, I'd rather take Mourinho's opinion than anyone else's. Especially when a great portion of the whining posts are as shallow as this. What has Martial done this season to be a 100% starter? 2 good games against Boro and West ham and 15 tragic...He has done nothing this season to help his cause...Even Lingard who is not good enough to play for our reserves in my opinion has contributed more than Martial this season. Stop whining for everything and think before you say something...Thanks
Yeah, except that isn't true. His early success against their full-back was the reason why he was quiet for the rest of the game. Liverpool reacted to that by having Henderson and Can double and triple-mark him. He was fine.
The onus isn't entirely on Martial to nail down that place either. He has to be given opportunities to make it work and if he's constantly in and out of the side it's going to be more difficult for him. Jones has done fairly well for himself but luck is a large factor in his mini-resurgance, injuries to Smalling and Bailly pretty much forced Mourinho to stick with the Jones-Rojo pairing and it blossomed as a result.
Mate who exactly offers more in that LW spot than Martial? Who's shown more i mean?
Has he been really that shiity that he couldn't even make the bench yesterday?
Like @snk123 stated above, Klopp's shown more respect to Martial in that game than Mourinho has this entire season.
Apart from the Boro game, when was he our main attacking threat or our best player during the last month or two? What have you been watching?
Are you expecting me to qualify what season I'm making reference to? Last season knew nothing about him, and equally we were so poor, him and Rashford offered some positivity.
Since I feel we are now seeing him under a different manager, different team, different scenarios. He's had the opportunity to cement the position as his own, and not taken it. He's not playing in international or league team for no good reason. He needs to apply himself more otherwise he'll be another one season wonder....
So he's just not playing very well at the moment
Big question is if Mourinho would look for Carrick's replacement or will he look to make us not dependent of him as much?
If we're playing Mata on the right than we needed Carrick like no other because he would than enable Herrera to go further forward and he along with Valencia would open spaces for Mata to expose.
5 is a bit too optimistic
If we're really in for Bakayoko, I think he's looking more towards his Chelsea 1 team as blueprint rather than his RM (Xabi) and Inter (CambiaGOAT) teams. Bakayoko basically playing the Makelele role and doing the dirty work to free up Pogba and our #10 (Griezz?) to go gung ho.
Agree with you mate re: Mata needing Carrick, but let's see. We have a cup semi coming up, maybe Jose wants some form of silverware at all costs so he's saving MC for midweek? I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.
I think people are just calling it as they see it. I'm a massive fan of Shaw but he's been really poor. That's not painting him in a bad light. That's just being fair about his performances.
Martial's been better than Shaw (and had more chances) but he's been extremely inconsistent. And with inconsistent players I'm more than happy to give the manager the benefit of any doubt. Seeing as he knows how sharp they've looked in training all week and we don't.
This isn't about Mourinho either. People constantly complained about Fergie's team selections too. I would say less than one in three of his starting XI's would get unanimous approval in here. Thankfully we won enough games that this was usually forgotten straight after the 3 points were secured.
Yeah, Bakayoko or that lad Kassie i guess. Maybe even N'Zonzi too. They all play the similar style.
Would be shame if he chosen to save Carrick for 2nd leg against Hull, rader than trying to exploit Liverpool's slip as well as the fact that Spurs played Citeh.
Oh well, this was a good discussion mate. Cheers
I've given Jose the benefit of the doubt so far, but Martial is the future of this team (among others). I'll be more concerned if he doesn't play the full 90 against hull.
The thing is Mourinho has often neglected some of the best young players in the world who have left to go on to be Premier League winning talents. Players like Lukaku, De Bruyne and even Ryan Bertrand. He doesn't often put faith in youth players, so it's worrying to see Martial (worlds best youngster) becoming a fringeish player in our squad.
Is Mourinho managing France by proxy? That probably explains why Martial doesn't feature in his NT anymore. Or maybe all these managers have an agenda against Martial, so beloved of our Caf.
What do you not understand? Martial is good at making runs on the ball. Let him do that. If Mourinho wants a winger than will make lots of runs off the ball, he should've bought one for the right wing. Or perhaps that player was Mkhitaryan but he turned out to be a bit shit.
Pep's barca was dependent on the likes of Pedro, Villa, Alves to do the running for Messi. Messi is best running with the ball, so that's what Guardiola asked him to do. It would be insane to ask Messi to waste all his energy making off the ball runs.
Martial is good running with the ball. That's what he should be allowed to do.
TBH I don't think it's what players offer in any particular position, I think it's how they compliment others. Mata is never an outside right/left player but (yesterday aside) offers much more than most. I should say I like Martial a lot but I think he needs to be in a team that's built around him rather than one that expects more than playing out wide.
I must say though that it's not all his fault as I think Jose has limited both Martial and Rashford development by never playing anyone else down the middle bar Ibra.
I'll just add to your post that him not having a reliable LB partner makes things even more difficult for him.
Situation on RW is far easier because Tony the Terminator is there.
We're talking about a manager that took Gignac instead of Lacazete and a manager that's playing Pogba on right holding MF role, right?
I think he plays well in pockets but teams are working him out and unless he works that out, his performances are gonna look worse than they might be.
Good point.
That's a BS argument that is repeated so many times on here. Managers CAN be wrong - as we found out when Herrera was not being played by LVG, when Mkhi was not selected by Mourinho, when Joe Hart was shipped out by Pep.
What is the obsession with not questioning the manager's decision?
If we were going by performances against Liverpool as the barometer for picking this week's team, Pogba had no reason to be within in mile of Stoke.
The point is, Messi as brilliant as he is was a cog. All the great teams are like that. The nature of this sport just doesn't allow for a Kobe or LeBron figure to lift your entire team up, everyone has to play for each other.
Never mind Ryan Bertrand or Lukaku. They've won feck all so far. I want to know what fecking idiot let Drinkwater and Simpson leave his club and become actual Premier League winning talents?
Absolutely. The problem is who to play ahead of him? Unlike Pogba, Martial faces serious competition for his place.
Why not just play Carrick with Herrera and Fellaini? If aerial bombardment was a threat, what Pogba did last week on set pieces should have added more weight to dropping him for this game.
To get back on topic, if he went to such great lengths to pick Schweinsteiger, who he never even plays until the final 5 mins of a 3-0 win on the bench and ignore Martial, that is definitely not a simple case of dropping someone for form is it?
I agree we should question them but it's their decisions that gives us the opportunity to question them. Always the easiest way round especially when they get it wrong. The funny thing is they are rarely praised when they get it right. The 'right' is often more attributed to the player rather than the management of the manager. I do think us as fans forget the management of players doesn't start at 3pm on a Saturday
I think he's wrapping Carrick in cotton wool to give us the best possible chance of a cup final. Which I'm ok with. Bastian was on the bench in case of an injury.
Like I keep saying (and Mourinho said himself after selling Depay). We've more/better options in Martial's position than in any other so it's not a massive drama if one or other of them ends up missing out altogether. At least it shouldn't be.
@Pogue Mahone ignoring me won't change the fact that you're wrong about Martial's performance in Liverpool game. Have a nice day tho
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