Well yeah course they disagree, that was what my post was about.
What are the figures on his tackles?
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Well yeah course they disagree, that was what my post was about.
What are the figures on his tackles?
I've mentioned before that I think this off the ball movement thing has become exaggerated.
I'm sure it can be improved but would you put that down to laziness or just a weakness in his game?
Great point.
Martial really needs to take the most of his next chance and improve his attitude/effort before he falls further down the pecking order.
I think both him and mkhitaryan got a perfect display of what it takes to play for Mourinho after yesterday's game.
Can't see Martial leaving at all. No team will want to pay the price that it would take to get him off our hands. Even if someone would offer €50M+ I can't see us wanting to sell him right now. We have invested far too much in the kid.
So we're back in the 'he's gone in the summer' boat now?
The thing is though, Martial is not a winger or left midfielder like Young. He played last season and at Monaco as a left forward, which is basically as a striker that drifts/cuts in from the left. He didn't previously have the responsibility to provide so much width or track back as deep as he is expected to do now. So to compare him with Young in that regard, is to me a bit like comparing Mkhi with Fellaini, apples and oranges bar some generic footballer attributes. I agree with @kouroux in what he expects from his players, I see the same as him, but I'm just not sure it's the right approach to this with regards to Martial.
I'm not gonna compare Martial to Hazard and C.Ronaldo with regards to their quality (obvious gulf there) but in the way these players, who play basically the same position, have been managed by Mourinho.
- Ronaldo was unwillingly absolved of any winger responsibilities (tracking back, providing width) and basically given the freedom to do as he likes. Partly because of his phenomenal output, partly because he told Mou to simply do one when asked to do so (perks of being a mega star) who knows. It arguably worked for Ronaldo and RM even though his relationship with Mourinho was beyond frosty because Ronaldo wouldn't follow instructions regarding tracking back. Mourinho eventually gets axed.
- Mourinho leaves RM, goes to Chelsea and tries to do with Hazard the same thing he wanted Ronaldo to do. He's trying to turn him into Willian, to track back and to be positionally disciplined. Eventually it backfires, Hazard downs tools and doesn't see eye-to-eye with Mourinho and I think we all know how that ended up.
- Jose then comes to United, finds Martial who under the freedom given to him by LVG had a POTY season with 17 goals and again tries to turn him into a hardworking winger same as he tried to do with Hazard and Ronaldo before. Result is Martial either gets axed (earlier in the season) or is out of the team and playing with no confidence when he comes on. The team loses an attacking threat which it badly needs and struggles to find from elsewhere.
He does have this obsession with players in wide forward positions working very hard for the team and being very disciplined. His track record of success probably validates him, but he did basically fall out with his star players for that very reason. Personally I would prefer a 17 goal a year Martial than a Young type of grafter any day of the week. The team does not have a problem with shipping goals anyway, it has a problem with scoring them. You can find Young type players (grafters with limited technical ability) for a dime a dozen, but you can't find 17 goal-a-season wide forwards easily. Letting him be tactically and defensively ill-disciplined would not kill us, if he managed to produce a goal return that warrants it.
Again, I'm not absolving Martial of blame. He has underperformed and he does need to do better. My problem is that Mourinho's approach of favouring his grafters has not really helped him so far at United. We are 5th on the league table. He loves his Fellainis and his Youngs and it occasionally works for us, but it's obvious to me that we're not gonna win titles with these players in the starting XI. I'd happily eat my words if he proves me wrong, by the way. But I'd like him to work with and get the best out of his genuinely talented players (Mkhi, Martial, Mata, Rashford) instead of just ostracising them from the squad because they don't work hard enough in defending.
Mata is probably the most hardworking player we have in the team and also, apart from Ibrahimovic, is our best attacking player. Rashford showed in last couple of games how to work his ass off even when he's the attacking player and he could throw in the same excuses about being a striker under LVG (while Martial played on the left for LVG) and he's not used to it and blablabla. As for Hazard, in 2014/15 he was named Player of the Year, was in the XI of the season, probably had his best season ever in terms of output in the EPL and was genuinely unplayable at times. Chelsea also won the title that year obviously.
Edit: not to mention that probably most of us have prediced that Mata would be a goner with Mou as he already got rid of him at Chelsea.
I can understand what you said and even agree with some of it. It is all about balance (between skill and hardwork to keep things very simple) but I'm sorry, Martial is as much as a left winger as Young is, if not more. Young has played a variety of positions (LB,RB, LW,RW) and always gives his best. That is the least expected from any pro.
It really is that simple, you can feck up performances because you're not used to a position (which I think is bs when it comes to Martial as it's the same position he's mostly played in his short career) but you cannot give less than 100%, even if you're not comfortable.
Mourinho may be wrong or right with his approach and that is another debate, however he is the manager and Martial, his players. He better wake the feck up otherwise he'll find himself on the fringe. Look at Rashford when he is on the wing, clearly not his best position, clearly it results in shitty performances at times but Mourinho trusts him because he knows Rashford will do his best given his instructions. I don't think Martial is close to satisfying Mourinho.
I think it's a massive weakness in his game.
In can certainly be worked on in training, but rumours are that he doesn't exactly apply himself on the training field (an issue that I believe Deschamps has also spoken with him about too)
Even LVG who signed him didn't fancy BFS though, he clearly wasn't up to the speed and pace of the PL.
I agree he's not like Young but he's not playing Ronaldo's position either. We only have one, maybe two spots in our usual 4231/352 where defending can be ignored, and Martial plays in neither of them.
Ronaldo plays that bit further forward in a team that doesnt need to defend much in most games, and Hazard is playing in a team built around him. Martial for now is a cog in the machine and needs to pitch in all over. If he makes it then maybe he will be afforded the luxury to ignore defending one day.
I see people failing to see the massive difference between laziness, lack of effort and weakness in one's game.
This forums is astounding sometimes. People going off ignorantly claiming Martial being one lazy fecker when in truth they are simply confusing his weakness with him supposedly lacking desire.
These type of ignorant posts don't help anyone in objectively assessing the situation with Martial and Mourinho.
The sooner people realise that there is a difference between the 2, the better and more accurate some arguments in this threads will be.
This forums is astounding sometimes. People going off ignorantly claiming Martial being one lazy fecker when in truth they are simply confusing his weakness with him supposedly lacking desire.
These type of ignorant posts don't help anyone in objectively assessing the situation with Martial and Mourinho.
The sooner people realise that there is a difference between the 2, the better and more accurate some arguments in this threads will be.
I mean not like he came to UTD and just decided he doesn't need BFS...
I mean how can you even write this? LVG was the one who brought him and BFS played very well under LVG, he was probably his favorite player. He played very well up until injuries happened.
It's rather simple. He can somewhat do the job on the LW, but his favorite position is CF. If he can't deliver what Mourinho is asking from him on the wing and if Mourinho doesn't want to give him a chance upfront, I guess there's not many options left.
We can sell him and Mourinho can get the winger he thinks would suit his style of play.
I guess if it comes to that and I sincerely hope it won't, only time will tell whether it was the right move to make.
We can sell him and Mourinho can get the winger he thinks would suit his style of play.
I guess if it comes to that and I sincerely hope it won't, only time will tell whether it was the right move to make.
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Would it be completely crazy to send him on loan to a PL club next season? Get a full season under his belt as a number 9 for a club such as West Brom (like Lukaku) and then have him and Rashford as our main forwards when Ibra is gone in 2018/2019.
He came to United with the knowledge BFS had declined drastically over the last few years and that he was injury prone. He decided not to make him part of his plans of his result. Don't let that get in the way of a good conspiracy though...
Conspiracy theories, ahh what a lovely response.
Facts are that Mourinho shunned BFS as soon as he stepped into the club. He had something against him because Rooney has declined drastically yet he was still getting his fair share of minutes.
But BFS worked his way back and proved himself to be a reliable option when called upon, hence Mourinho's own admission that he has treated BFS badly and unfairly.
So much for conspiracy theories...
Do our loans ever work out? I struggle to think of a recent one that did. We always seem to send players to clubs who are circling the drain. We've had a few go to QPR during seasons when they were just godawful, as well as Cardiff, and currently Pereira and Januzaj are at clubs who are 19th and 20th respectively in their leagues.
The last reasonable successful loan was Welbeck at Sunderland, back when Sunderland weren't utterly hopeless.
The poster is saying exactly what happened, as verified by Mourinho himself in the admittance of his mistake.
I don't know how you've turned that into a conspiracy.
Martial doesn't come across as a bad kid. Some of his tracking back last season was seriously impressive and our other young stars like Ronaldo and all to shame. He has a bit of a languid style but clearly given the entirely of his time at United, this is more to do with howy ho he's feeling at the club and more importantly, his relationship with the boss. How much of that is who being at fault is debatable. But I don't think it's Mourinho being an evil person or Martial being a lazy guy who doesn't care. Personally, given the man in charge is the one with all the experience and wisdom, I'd like to see if he can manage the potential star of the game to reach there. So far I'd have preferred him Mourinho handled him differently and disagree with much of his man management with respect to Martial.
I'm not arguing about where is playing, but where he was. He absolutely played that free role from LF that Ronaldo and Hazard enjoy. And he did deliver 17 goals in 49 apps at age 19/20 which was basically as good as Hazard has delivered for Chelsea at any of his years. Making him into a Young-type cog, has obviously not worked. Not for Martial, not for United.
So long as we understand the difference between someone "being" and "being asked to play as" a winger, then a I can't really see that argument at all. He's not a winger that will provide width and put crosses in, which is the the primary job of a winger. He never has been that. You can at best describe him as an inside forward. Young has 15 years of experience playing LM or LW, providing width and putting crosses in the box. If you still believe Martial's a winger, then let's just agree to disagree on this because further discussion will get us nowhere.
It's not really another debate though, is it? The team has struggled to score goals. And playing Rashford or Martial (the two players that scored our goals last season) as LW has very much to do with it. The players can certainly get some of the blame, but so can the manager. It's his job to get the best out of the team and with regards to his forward players; he's benched Mkhi and Martial for long periods and played Rashford at LW. Thus failing to get the best out of them. I find it hard to believe all 3 were to blame (when they were having fine seasons last year) and Mourinho somehow shares 0 fault in that.
I don't really see how shitty performances are OK if you are putting a shift in? I fully understand it's what Mourinho likes and expects but it does my head in. Like you mentioned Rashford on the left wing does feck all for Rashford or the team but because he works hard he keeps playing him there. What's the point? What are Man Utd getting out of this? It's certainly not solving our goal scoring problems, nor are we getting any awards for hard graft. Might as well play Young there, FFS, he'll give you all the work rate you need. But then don't complain that we don't score enough.
As for Martial being not close to satisfying Mourinho, well that is certainly the case. I have my doubts if he ever will do, but like I said, not even Hazard or Ronaldo were close to satisfying Mourinho so make of that what you will. It's just not a good match between player and coach in this case. Which is a shame, because we all saw what Martial did last season. But yeah, we/I support United. so if Martial being benched or sold works for us in the end then so be it. But it's hard to not be frustrated now, when things aren't exactly working out for us.
Hate to make this example, but the intensity of his tracking back has seriously injured Bolasie.
15th and will be behind Lingard and Romero after the next game, with a strong chance of being behind Young/Darmian or both in a couple of games time. Don't think he'll be here next season with Mourinho looking to strengthen in attack, Martial being firmly behind our other current attacking options and next year being a World Cup year so will want to be somewhere he'll likely play a lot.
I think for the most part, next season we won't care as we'll do well in the league etc. but there'll be that element of "what if" things happened differently for him here with Mourinho.
Let's wait for that to happen first, eh? Agree with you on the rest, I also think he's a gonner.
He'll come good. Don't worry. But not this season.
Agree to disagree.I just don't think Mourinho expects him to play like a crossing type of winger, he expects him to track back just like any player is expected and then make runs, be available, be more energetic, lively and alert.
Zlatan who is much much older, does his fair share of defensive work whereas he is our main striker. Why wouldn't the same be expected from a winger. The position means feck all if the minimum requirements aren't meant, Rashford does more work than him when playing on that flank, how do you explain that then ?
The most frustrating thing is that he was doing all of that last season so why is he not trying the same ?
Yes he did. At what point was it baseless, groundless dislike as you are trying to state it is with Martial? Whether he was right or wrong is immaterial, he has grounds for making an assumption. You seem to be getting yourselves muddled up in your desperation to prove Mourinho wrong.
I'm not the one claiming Mourinho turned up and decided he didn't like him. I'm the one saying there's a reason behind it. You're welcome to explain why Mourinho has just decided to dislike Martial. I'm waiting...
For starters Mourinho being especially hard on him after bad performances which isn't the case with other players. The fact he was often dropped after good performances without being given a run of games when he was clearly getting his form up. Public criticism, holding him to different standards with Martial having to preform "magnificent" in order to obtain a place in the squad for the next match.
Those are just some of examples.
FYI I was saying Mourinho's treatment of Martial is clearly different compared to the other players.
Really? We will just pretend this standard hasn't been applied to Shaw or to Mhkitaryan then, who both have been publicly criticized after performing badly. We will also ignore the positive comments made in the media, where he said back in February he had worked hard to win back his place and hope it continues. Obviously he didn't continue.
You keep telling yourself he just dislikes him for absolutely no reason whatsoever. Makes complete sense.
You will just keep ignoring the facts and spin it like it's nothing wrong with his treatment.
Actually you saying it's OK to treat your players like that is worrying. Some players are getting the stick for the slightest mistakes yet others aren't.
Beyond this point is really pointless to discuss anything at all.
What are the facts other than he's underperformed, been lazy and has so far shown a poor attitude?
Yeah, because one of us is actually using evidence while the other one is making blind assumptions because it's a player he likes.
Mourinho is a pragmatic man. He wouldn't drop a young talent like Martial because he decided he didn't like him for no reason. There's a reason for it.
Laziness based on defensive tackles made for an offensive player? Gotcha.
Yes one is really using facts like odd treatment, public criticism, different standards, dropping him when he performed good and asking for him to be magnificent in order to get into squad.
Not to mention whole BFS treatment that was equally as odd.
The other one has some shallow assumptions as "poor attitude".
Yeah God forbid he ever done it before in his previous clubs...
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If you look back I didn't mention anything about why or even if Mourinho has taken to dislike Martial. So you'll be waiting a while on that score.
I'm only picking you up on you're characterisation of a perfectly accurate description of the BFS situation as "conspiracy theory."
The poster said it how it was. Mourinho has confirmed it himself.
Laziness as in being lazy? Difficult concept, I know.
Yeah the old 'odd treatment', well qualified, point proven. Again, pretending we havent seen the same treatment with Shaw and Mhikitaryan, both of whom have at least tried to show their commitment, and have gone public supporting Jose's decision.
So despite Martial playing shite, not working hard, having a shit attitude (optimised by Jose calling him back and subbing on Young when Shaw got injured despite it being clearly a tactical decision) you prefer to go with the 'he doesn't look him coz he mean' argument. Outstanding! Pathetic how loyal some fans are to specific players.
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If you read back you'll see the conspiracy theory relates to Martial, not BFS. But please, don't let that get in the way.
Yes Mourinho said he should have treated him better and not put him in the reserves. Did Mourinho say he was wrong to not playing him regularly in the first team? It's a big difference and you'll do well to think on it. It's entirely relevant to this discussion. Martial is being dropped for a reason, not because of some irrational dislike to a player. To support that viewpoint is stupid.
It's disappointing how some fans are ready to write off a young potential world class talent that carried us last season in favour of justifying some questionable decisions by the manager that's known for his infamous youth management.
But hey I stated my facts, you stated your assumptions. There's nothing more to be done really. You have your opinion and I have mine.
So have a nice day.
I'm not ready to write him off at all. You'll see previously I've been a stoic supporter of his based on his talent. You're so focused on trying to dismiss anyone who questions him you can't see the wood for the trees.
Martial is being paid a huge sum of money to play for our club. If the manager asks you to work your arse off defensively as well as offensively, you do it. Just like Lingard has, and Rashford too. You don't pout and work half as hard for the team because you don't like doing it. That's not an option. He isn't Ronaldo or Bale or Messi, he hasnt earnt the right or the respect to do that.
Oh the hypocrisy. Your facts are he hasn't played him because he doesn't him for NO REASON! You still haven't given an explanation other than he 'doesn't like him, for some reason'. It's a childish viewpoint. All evidence thus far supports Mourinho, some of which I've outlined and you've flatly ignored, keep those fingers in your ears and your eyes closed though.
Mourinho is a manager who expects commitment from his side. He expects players to do as they are told. He has an already established world class record which tells us the man knows what he is doing. If Martial thinks he's bigger than the club and the manager he can feck off for all I care. He's a serious talent and I sincerely hope he sorts out his attitude, but as of right now Mourinho is fully vindicated for not playing him. If Martial shows commitment he'll be played, period.
No player should be able to gain a regular place in our team without loads of ability and 100% commitment – Martial is no different. He needs to work on his understanding of the game and has to be seen as putting in a 100 % shift before he will be considered a regular starter again. In isolation very good footballing ability will not earn you a place in Jose’s first team – and rightly so, in my opinion.
I think there is no need to go on theories of "manger dislikes the player" and so on. It is a team, there are so many players each with their own set of problems. We have Shaw, we have Mikhi, we have Pogba, we have Jones, we have Rooney all with their unique set of problems. We need to let Mourinho and Martial sort things out and wait patiently without creating theories. I don't think Mourinho "dislikes" or "hates" anyone.
Martial will definitely play on Thursday and we will get the chance to witness his performance at that time.
Martial will definitely play on Thursday and we will get the chance to witness his performance at that time.
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