[SteveW]

Sounds like Mourinho is getting a good return out of him when he plays him, no? I'm not saying its down to Mourinho but i'm just suggesting stats can be twisted, they are not completely objective, just watch the game, obviously martial can be class but there are many games he isn't and many games he doesn't involve himself enough in, which isn't good enough to be a guaranteed starter

On the flip side Rashford was our best player in the last game playing in the same position so are we not hampering his momentum too, by dropping him? we have three players out wide who have played well in their most recent games in mkhi martial and rashford, so they are competing for two spots. Your argument is basically martial has the most talent give it to him, because he hasn't been in such good form that he's earned one of the spots automatically rashford last week was better than either of martials last two performances but not as good as him tonight. That doesn't foster good competition for places in the squad and doesn't let players know if they work hard in training they will get a spot. Martial was good today and I would start him and Mkhi against Hull, but he has had games where he hasn't played well hence we have looked elsewhere for a solution, Mourinho isn't some newbie who doesn't know what he is doing, he is creating a certain competitive edge in the squad and Martial will step up with it hopefully. He had long, poor patches last season as well, and it pays to have alternatives around who can play

Yeah good point every player who has played well the season before has walked into a new league and hit the ground running, its why I've got both Di maria and Falcao shirts, Players take time to adapt, Mkhi was working on that got injured came back and worked his way up the pecking order, he did a good job and now whenever he plays he stands outs.

I understand where you're coming from but it equates to saying just play the best players, squad dynamics are a lot less straightforward than that.

We aren't going to agree on this.

It's going to be very difficult to agree if you feel the need to change the subject every time you realise I might be right about something.

Your argument has changed quite a bit in the last few hours. It's gone from Martial's been shite all season and doesn't deserve to play to "isn't Jose getting a good return from him" So do that mean he is playing well? It's getting confusing.

 

[Grunge]

Great post.
Absolutely clueless by Mourinho, the treatment of Martial and Mkh. I would say it has cost us the league and possibly top 4

Come on Scholesy, "absolutely clueless"? You by comparison have been managing championship winning teams for how long now??????

 

[royboy16]

Anthony the Ice man Martial.

 

[championo]

Come on Scholesy, "absolutely clueless"? You by comparison have been managing championship winning teams for how long now??????

I love Jose, but can you point to any young player he has groomed before? He is an excellent man manager. He managers players who are already set. His continued use of Ibra should be revealing when it comes to this issue.

 

[Scholesy]

He's consistently been much better out wide though. It's a mystery why so many people still don't accept this.

We haven't seen him play enough through the middle, to give a fair comparison.

 

[limerickcitykid]

Relying on that table as a fair comparison is a stupid argument, that's for sure. @Damien 's already posted stats showing Mourinho's clear preference for starting Martial in easier fixtures at Old Trafford. I don't think him and Jesse have played many games together so assume the opposite is true for Lingard. So you're comparing apples with oranges. And that's not even getting into the discussion about whether goals and assists are the only metric that matters in assessing individual performances (hint: they're not)

Anyway. I thought he did well today. Useless through the middle (I've never understood why so many think this is his best position) but did well on the left in the second half. So not quite the "magnificent" performance Jose mentioned but surely good enough to get the nod against Hull.

Not to mention its such a small sample size of 350 minutes. If you look at his 640 minutes before that Lingard was getting a goal/assist every 126.8 minutes. I'm not even entirely sure what the argument is when Lingard gets brought up. Martial is better than Lingard? Well, yes that is why Martial gets played more.

I can only assume some people seem to think if you score goals then you must be a striker.

 

[Grunge]

Excellent mins/goal or assist ratio. Significantly better than any of the others. Lingard really stands out there. I think it was Pogue or someone that was banging on about how Lingard has been left just as often as Martial therefore Martial can't complain. Stupid argument as this table proves

Not that stupid really. When you disregard goals per minute, Lingard's 357 total minutes is well short of Martial's 623 & Lingard has never finished 90 mins. I think that's what Pog was talking about.
Don't get me wrong I'd have Martial before Jesse all day, every day, but that doesn't mean Martial is the finished product. It does mean he needs a strong manager to get the most out of him and earn a place in a squad that is only gonna get stronger in the next window.
Time for Martial to "man up", put a smile on his face, keep working hard and take chances when they're given.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We haven't seen him play enough through the middle, to give a fair comparison.

Yet apparently we've seen enough for some of ye to be convinced it's his best position. Go figure.

 

[DJ Jeff]

He's an inside forward. There's potential in there for him to be the next Alexis Sanchez or Arjen Robben, cutting in from the opposite flank on to his stronger foot.

 

[SteveW]

And you were attending every practice session were you? Chatting with the player, hanging out in the physio room determining with your vast experience that he was back to his best and ready to play in Premiership?

Lot's of players have been "the best" before coming to Utd & then struggled under the pressure. There's no reason to believe that Mou hasn't done right by Mkhi.

Were you? The idea that Mhki couldn't handle the PL at the start is just pure speculation. There's no evidence.

There is however a lot of evidence of him being an excellent footballer prior to joining us. I think you'll also be able to find match reports of him torturing both Spurs and Liverpool in the Europa League over the last couple of seasons. That to me would suggest he could comfortably handle playing against good premier league teams long before Mourinho ever had anything to do with him.

What do you think Mourinho did to him over that four months to make him so much better than the player who was voted the best in the Bundesliga last season? I would suggest not a lot. He looks like exactly the same player.

I find it all a bit far fetched.

 

[Dobbs]

Stop me if I'm getting too technical here, but is part of his problem that he's... a bit of a pussy?

He's a big guy but he always loses any kind of tussle, and he's way too easy to jockey off the ball. He falls over whenever he feels any kind of contact, and when someone does hack the ball away from him he immediately gives it up for lost, letting the opponent run the ball away unchallenged.

Jose should make him watch a full-match video of Herrera. Got about half Martial's bodyweight but he does twice as much with it.

I'd agree with that, he lacks a bit of aggression. Though I think that's true of a lot of young players coming through. Seems to me it's being coached out of them.

He's consistently been much better out wide though.

Well he's consistently played out wide.

He can't show consistency as a centre forward if he rarely plays there.

I'm still not sure of his best position. I still think him as a roaming centre forward rather than a traditional target man would give us something extra.

 

[Scholesy]

Relying on that table as a fair comparison is a stupid argument, that's for sure. @Damien 's already posted stats showing Mourinho's clear preference for starting Martial in easier fixtures at Old Trafford. I don't think him and Jesse have played many games together so assume the opposite is true for Lingard.

Lingard started the following easy home games

Stoke. Draw.
Burnley. Draw.
West Ham. Draw.

 

[kouroux]

I'd agree with that, he lacks a bit of aggression. Though I think that's true of a lot of young players coming through. Seems to me it's being coached out of them.



Well he's consistently played out wide.

He can't show consistency as a centre forward if he rarely plays there.

I'm still not sure of his best position. I still think him as a roaming centre forward rather than a traditional target man would give us something extra.

For a good reason, he is young so better to let him play in what is clearly his best position.

 

[Scholesy]

Yet apparently we've seen enough for some of ye to be convinced it's his best position. Go figure.

And you've seen enough (1 half of football) to be convinced its not his best position?

 

[Kevin]

Were you? The idea that Mhki couldn't handle the PL at the start is just pure speculation. There's no evidence.

There is however a lot of evidence of him being an excellent footballer prior to joining us. I think you'll also be able to find match reports of him torturing both Spurs and Liverpool in the Europa League over the last couple of seasons. That to me would suggest he could comfortably handle playing against good premier league teams long before Mourinho ever had anything to do with him.

What do you think Mourinho did to him over that four months to make him so much better than the player who was voted the best in the Bundesliga last season? I would suggest not a lot. He looks like exactly the same player.

I find it all a bit far fetched.

Excellent post. All down to narritive and the flow. If/when Mourinho fecks up another season the reasoning will go right up the opposite way whenever he does his weirdo psycho games again with promising footballers. But he's still in his honeymoon and Martial's heroics was so oh so long ago now, so he's one dimensional and can feck off with his horrific attitude (when he played well it was ''cool'' and some called him iceman martial or whatever).

Mourinho's time will come. Nobody will escape the hypocrisy of football fans. It's also why I smirk when supporters round on players for being disloyal or whatever. When they're useful to us we love them, when they have been perceived as not needed anymore they can feck right off. I am a United fan but would feck your lot and the club right off if I felt treated wrongly and would give zero fecks about hypocrites crowing about disloyalty when it's obviously all business (how useful are we to eachother?) in the end.

I hope Martial does what is best for him, just like Pogba did (can remember a fair few destroying him back then and saying he was fecked and didn't have the right mentality... he won in the end but luckily for us 80 million got him back for us).

 

[JPRouve]

For a good reason, he is young so better to let him play in what is clearly his best position.

He seems to agree with that.

 

[SteveW]

Yet apparently we've seen enough for some of ye to be convinced it's his best position. Go figure.

I think a lot of us myself included need to hold our hands up on that one. I would have said he was a 9 but he now looks way more comfortable when not playing with his back to goal. I wonder how much of it is down to playing almost exclusively from the left for a year. Perhaps LVG was right all along?

 

[DWelbz19]

He's just a bit of a cold fish. In his first few months at the club everyone lapped it up. "Look at him. He's got ice in his veins. Such a cool dude." Now we're worried he's unhappy. Nothing has changed though. I don't think he'll ever wear his heart on his sleeve.

Good shout, I forgot about that.

 

[Dobbs]

For a good reason, he is young so better to let him play in what is clearly his best position.

Yeah maybe so. I'm just saying you can't criticise his consistency as a centre forward when he never plays there. Today was his first appearance of the season as a striker right?

 

[kouroux]

Yeah maybe so. I'm just saying you can't criticise his consistency as a centre forward when he never plays there. Today was his first appearance of the season as a striker right?

I don't criticize his consistency because that would be stupid. I'm just saying that at the moment he is simply better used on the left. What he'll do when he matures is anyone's guess.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Clearly much better suited on the left than as a lone striker.

He improved as the game unfolded. Got 2 assists. He can frustrate at times and I think he's not going past people the way he was last season, but his productivity has been great lately. He should get a run of games. We need him firing.

 

[Janson]

It's almost surreal. I feel like he must have played a bunch of games as a striker that I somehow never got to see.

It tends to be the people who always blame bad performances on "lack of pace" no matter what the actual reason is. Then there are his fanboys that look for ways to justify his performances.

He really is better on the left where he has more space to dribble. An attacking fullback would probably benefit him as well.

 

[kouroux]

Excellent post. All down to narritive and the flow. If/when Mourinho fecks up another season the reasoning will go right up the opposite way whenever he does his weirdo psycho games again with promising footballers. But he's still in his honeymoon and Martial's heroics was so oh so long ago now, so he's one dimensional and can feck off with his horrific attitude (when he played well it was ''cool'' and some called him iceman martial or whatever).

Mourinho's time will come. Nobody will escape the hypocrisy of football fans. It's also why I smirk when supporters round on players for being disloyal or whatever. When they're useful to us we love them, when they have been perceived as not needed anymore they can feck right off. I am a United fan but would feck your lot and the club right off if I felt treated wrongly and would give zero fecks about hypocrites crowing about disloyalty when it's obviously all business (how useful are we to eachother?) in the end.

I hope Martial does what is best for him, just like Pogba did (can remember a fair few destroying him back then and saying he was fecked and didn't have the right mentality... he won in the end but luckily for us 80 million got him back for us).

I think you should re-evaluate your priorities when watching United cause it sounds like the club's interest mean feck all to you.

 

[mu4c_20le]

How often do you think the opposition leaves enough space for us to play a through ball centrally?

He's an inside forward. There's potential in there for him to be the next Alexis Sanchez or Arjen Robben, cutting in from the opposite flank on to his stronger foot.

I think this is his best bet because I don't see him as a Mourinho type of centre forward at all. Especially when Pogba returns, we usually dominate possession while the opposition sits deep, he is better off joining the attacking unit of 3 that interchanges, than being stuck up front with his back to the goal. Personally I don't think he's let go of the whole AM9 thing but his best bet would be to link up with teammates and drive up through the middle.

 

[Mockney]

Comparison to the rest in that time period:

So he's played nearly twice as many minutes as Lingard? If you went off this thread alone you'd swear it was the other way around.

If I'm honest, I'm a bit miffed by what the Jose bashing lot (and allegedly Martial himself) are so annoyed about? He's played a fair amount of games (22 by January) and not been treated significantly different than Mata, Rooney or Rashford. He's certainly not been frozen out like Mikhi was. In fact early season, when he was genuinely quite poor, he was starting every week. Is it too ridiculous to assume Jose saw that approach wasn't working, so tried a different one?

I love Martial, and I want to see him starting as much as possible, but he is still very young, with one solitary good season to his name, after being virtually unknown before he came here. If he's really sulking about playing in merely over half of our games, it's a hard attitude to sympathise with (if it's even true, of course. Which it's probably not) especially when the likes of Mikhi and Bastian have taken their comparatively harsher treatment with consummate professionalism, and been the better for it.

Whether he deserves to be starting ahead of Lingard (which he usually is anyway) is far less of an issue than whether he's got the stomach, head or heart for a club like United.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

And you've seen enough (1 half of football) to be convinced its not his best position?

The feck are you on about? I've watched every single game he's played for us. Same as everyone else.

 

[SteveW]

Excellent post. All down to narritive and the flow. If/when Mourinho fecks up another season the reasoning will go right up the opposite way whenever he does his weirdo psycho games again with promising footballers. But he's still in his honeymoon and Martial's heroics was so oh so long ago now, so he's one dimensional and can feck off with his horrific attitude (when he played well it was ''cool'' and some called him iceman martial or whatever).

Mourinho's time will come. Nobody will escape the hypocrisy of football fans. It's also why I smirk when supporters round on players for being disloyal or whatever. When they're useful to us we love them, when they have been perceived as not needed anymore they can feck right off. I am a United fan but would feck your lot and the club right off if I felt treated wrongly and would give zero fecks about hypocrites crowing about disloyalty when it's obviously all business (how useful are we to eachother?) in the end.

I hope Martial does what is best for him, just like Pogba did (can remember a fair few destroying him back then and saying he was fecked and didn't have the right mentality... he won in the end but luckily for us 80 million got him back for us).

That danger always exists with Jose but I really hope things don't go sour. He's doing a lot of really good things. His signings have been great and we're definitely improving and showing better character as a team. He's faar from perfect but I feel the positives are outweighing the negatives right now.
Maybe I'm being naive but I genuinely feel this may be the club where he finally settles down and builds something lasting.

I think there is a danger of losing Martial at some stage if his relationship with Jose isn't a good one. Players will stay were they feel loved and supported. If he doesn't feel the support of his manager he may look elsewhere. He's not English, he didn't grow up supporting United. He has no real reason to be loyal to the club. I'm hopeful that Jose at least recognises his talent. If he sees him as someone who will help us win trophies he will want to keep him around. But we've seen over the years he doesn't always get it right. I would hate to see us lose him because I truly believe he is a special talent.

 

[Grunge]

I love Jose, but can you point to any young player he was groomed before? He is an excellent man manager. He managers players who are already set. His continued use of Ibra should be revealing when it comes to this issue.

Can't say that I have. Just know I used to hate the cocky feck when he won so much & beat us (and everyone else) all the feckin' time! (seemed that way anyway)
He was my choice when Fergie left ... you?
Listen, I love it when young players come through but I love it way more when United win stuff on a regular basis!
It's still early days but I think we're on the right track with the Mou man.

 

[Lawman]

Does he need to sort himself out though? He's a very good young player. If he needed to sort him out so much he'd be crap and we'd all be happy to get rid of him. All he needs is a better relationship with his manager. That could be just as much Jose needing to sort himself out

I'd prefer if he actually looked like he was enjoying himself and interested but maybe just my perspective.

 

[Scholesy]

The feck are you on about? I've watched every single game he's played for us. Same as everyone else.

He's probably played 5 games maximum as a striker through the middle. Not saying he's better there, but it's hard to decide. He would definitely get alot more goals through the middle.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

So he's played nearly twice as many minutes as Lingard? If you went off this thread alone you'd swear it was the other way around.

If I'm honest, I'm a bit miffed by what the Jose bashing lot (and allegedly Martial himself) are so annoyed about? He's played a fair amount of games (22 by January) and not been treated significantly differently than Mata, Rooney or Rashford. He's certainly not been frozen out like Mikhi was. In fact early season - when he was genuinely quite poor - he was starting every week. Is it too ridiculous to assume Jose saw that approach wasn't working, so tried a different one?

I love Martial, and I want to see him starting as much as possible, but he is still very young, with one solitary good season to his name, after being virtually unknown before he came here. If he's really sulking about playing in over half of our games so far, it's a hard attitude to sympathise with (if it's even true, of course. Which it's probably not) especially when the likes of Mikhi and Bastian have taken their comparatively harsher treatment with consummate professionalism, and been the better for it.

Whether he deserves to be starting ahead of Lingard (which he usually is anyway) is far less of an issue than whether he's got the stomach, head or heart for a club like United.

Much harsher treatment to much more established players. Who would have much more reason to be miffed.

I just think Mourinho's an incredibly hard task-master. With incredibly high standards. That's how he's won so much shit. Not every player will respond to his approach but those that do are likely to be made of the right stuff and will run through walls for him. He may well fail to adequately nurture a prima donna here and there but that's a small sacrifice for the greater good.

None of that prima donna stuff necessarily applies to Martial. There's still every chance he'll rise to the challenge and be a better player for having to prove himself like this.

 

[Sylar]

I think hes better out wide (not a winger but a support striker). It helps him run at people, hes got pace but ability to run with the ball. The problem is when hes double and triple teamed (more a problem for the team cos we dont take advantage with the space thats freed up elsewhere).

I think hes better facing the goal and driving than back to goal being the striker to hold up, etc. From where he was in the second half, he can still link up with players (as he did with Mkhi and Mata), but also cause a real threat (and still get in behind defenders as hes not strictly stuck to one side).
I also think we will see him get even better, more of a free role once we get a settled LB that can provide the width that Valencia does on the right.

 

[LouisDanGaal]

It's going to be very difficult to agree if you feel the need to change the subject every time you realise I might be right about something.

Your argument has changed quite a bit in the last few hours. It's gone from Martial's been shite all season and doesn't deserve to play to "isn't Jose getting a good return from him" So do that mean he is playing well? It's getting confusing.

It is difficult but mainly because you're just deciding what you want to argue against and then going for it without actually checking what i'm saying. Neither of those have been my position at any stage. The second one there you're quoting I even say it in the next part of the sentence, which you've inexplicably left out, im not saying its down to mourinho. Why would you leave out half the quote, thus completely changing the context, when quoting the person that said it? that's ridiculous, obviously i'm going to be aware of what I said and its written down. The whole point I was making was that stats aren't as straightforward as you'd like them to be for your argument.

The other position you've just made up entirely. Its not confusing just boring if you're going to attempt to straw man everything, I'm not taking part in this one anymore as we've got to an absolutely pointless part of the debate where we aren't even debating martial but what the other has said and that is in no way interesting to me.

 

[Dobbs]

I don't criticize his consistency because that would be stupid. I'm just saying that at the moment he is simply better used on the left. What he'll do when he matures is anyone's guess.

Well then why quote my post that was rebuking the argument over him being inconsistent if you agree? Inconsistent in a position he hasn't played this season(until today).

I mean it's no problem I just don't get it.

 

[Grunge]

Were you? The idea that Mhki couldn't handle the PL at the start is just pure speculation. There's no evidence.

There is however a lot of evidence of him being an excellent footballer prior to joining us. I think you'll also be able to find match reports of him torturing both Spurs and Liverpool in the Europa League over the last couple of seasons. That to me would suggest he could comfortably handle playing against good premier league teams long before Mourinho ever had anything to do with him.

What do you think Mourinho did to him over that four months to make him so much better than the player who was voted the best in the Bundesliga last season? I would suggest not a lot. He looks like exactly the same player.

I find it all a bit far fetched.

No evidence, 'cause neither you or I were there! Maybe we'll read about it in their biography's?
Of course Mou knew what he was buying and that's why we paid as much as we did for the German player of the (last) year.
And I think what "Mourinho did to him" during that four months, is probably not dissimilar to the way he's managed the hundred's of other players who in turn have helped him win so much, so often!
Remember "looks" can be deceiving. Maybe if Juan Sebastian had been managed this way he would have become a leg-end ... instead of a bell-end. (Sorry Senor Veron that was bit harsh of me)

 

[SteveW]

Relying on that table as a fair comparison is a stupid argument, that's for sure. @Damien 's already posted stats showing Mourinho's clear preference for starting Martial in easier fixtures at Old Trafford. I don't think him and Jesse have played many games together so assume the opposite is true for Lingard. So you're comparing apples with oranges. And that's not even getting into the discussion about whether goals and assists are the only metric that matters in assessing individual performances (hint: they're not)

Anyway. I thought he did well today. Useless through the middle (I've never understood why so many think this is his best position) but did well on the left in the second half. So not quite the "magnificent" performance Jose mentioned but surely good enough to get the nod against Hull.

Nobody's saying goals and assists are the only metric. But they are at least tangible evidence that the player is contributing. Considering the opinions are varying so wildly on here sometimes a few concrete facts are valuable at times. Whether you think he's playing well or playing terribly he has been involved in us scoring goals. Goals win games. I've seen a definite improvement in his recent performances and I've been surprised to see this just dismissed by so many people, yourself included.

Not to mention its such a small sample size of 350 minutes. If you look at his 640 minutes before that Lingard was getting a goal/assist every 126.8 minutes. I'm not even entirely sure what the argument is when Lingard gets brought up. Martial is better than Lingard? Well, yes that is why Martial gets played more.

I can only assume some people seem to think if you score goals then you must be a striker.

It's a small sample size. Whilst not that useful in deciding which player is better, a sample size based on the last 15 games should at least give an idea as to which player is currently playing better. You would hope current form would influence the managers selection. Doesn't seem to when it comes to Martial.

 

[SteveW]

I'd prefer if he actually looked like he was enjoying himself and interested but maybe just my perspective.

Don't think that'll ever happen to be fair. It's just not his personality.

 

[Manny]

Martial's form has been decent. I found a stat on twitter that backs this up. He's had 7 goals or assists in his last 7 starts.

Here are his 7 goals or assists from his last 7 starts

LC 30-11-2016 Manchester United 4 : 1 West Ham - 2 goals
PL 04-12-2016 Everton 1 : 1 Manchester United - 1 assist
PL 31-12-2016 Manchester United 2 : 1 Middlesbrough - 1 goal
FAC 07-01-2017 Manchester United 4 : 0 Reading - 1 goal
FAC 29-01-2017 Manchester United 4 : 0 Wigan - 2 assists.

5 of his goals or assists have come in the cup competitions against weakened oppositions. And I'm not sure whether the Everton assist (where Zlatan lobbed the keeper) should count as an assist.

And here is what his stats look like in the PL compared to our other forwards (per 90 minutes)

Spoiler

 

[Scholesy]

I agree, I'm never disappointed whenever Martial is picked! Often however, I am left disappointed with his performance (and his sour face/attitude) over 90 minutes.
He, and our other young forwards including Rashford it must be said, are still relatively inexperienced and make too many poor decisions.

Mou knows his player better than we do; He put pressure on Martial to "show up" today in his pre game press conference and finally in the second half Martial showed why he should be considered.



And you were attending every practice session were you? Chatting with the player, hanging out in the physio room determining with your vast experience that he was back to his best and ready to play in Premiership?

Lot's of players have been "the best" before coming to Utd & then struggled under the pressure. There's no reason to believe that Mou hasn't done right by Mkhi.

Mou has 1000% messed up Martial and MKH this season. MKH was electric when he came on vs Hull (when the weather was awful). Then not seen for months. Took us to December for MKH and Martial to start together. By that time, out of the title race.

Martial seems a shy person and this constant mind games can't be doing him good. He is showing some more output now, so there is no reason to drop him now.

He needs to play 75% of games from now until May.

 

[SteveW]

It is difficult but mainly because you're just deciding what you want to argue against and then going for it without actually checking what i'm saying. Neither of those have been my position at any stage. The second one there you're quoting I even say it in the next part of the sentence, which you've inexplicably left out, im not saying its down to mourinho. Why would you leave out half the quote, thus completely changing the context, when quoting the person that said it? that's ridiculous, obviously i'm going to be aware of what I said and its written down. The whole point I was making was that stats aren't as straightforward as you'd like them to be for your argument.

The other position you've just made up entirely. Its not confusing just boring if you're going to attempt to straw man everything, I'm not taking part in this one anymore as we've got to an absolutely pointless part of the debate where we aren't even debating martial but what the other has said and that is in no way interesting to me.

You've got to be kidding? Talk about a pot calling a kettle black. You've some neck! Lets leave it.