[sammsky1]

Pleasing to hear it's a health issue rather than a contractual one, but the fact he still hasn't resigned is still a worry.
I imagine both he and Chong will end up running their contracts down.

 

[mu4c_20le]

oh feck off (Samuel, not sammsky)

 

[Adam-Utd]

Well obviously there is contractual issues, but that’s not the reason he’s not playing is what I meant.

anyway, Gomes probably is asking for silly money compared to his current standing, but I imagine we will cave eventually

 

[Indnyc]

Captain for under 19s vs Milan

 

[Bebestation]

Captain for under 19s vs Milan

This is just pure confusion to me.

 

[lumeyes]

He's got his fair crack and failed to perform. There's no sugar coating his performances in the first team, he's offered little to what the Caf thought he would in pre season.

That's not true at all. Repeating it a thousand times over will not make it true either.

Exactly

I'll freely admit I've liked what I've seen of Gomes prior to this season (and indeed this past pre-season) but in the games he's played since he hasn't performed and maybe that's due to making his mind up this past summer that he wasn't going to stay

No one can accuse Ole of not giving youth a chance if they're deserving of it

Ole has actually been timid with youth. There have been numerous occasion when he had the chance to use one of the kids but he preferred Lingard over Greenwood, Young, Mata, Matic. As a matter of fact, McT came in and played much better than Matic, only to be relagated to the bench or even disappear from sight once Matic came back from injury. Quite a few times. It was only after the latter showed an embarrasing form time after time that he began to trust McT. He had no option. You can't put Ole on the same bracket as Klop for example

Agree with this. I really wanted to him to come good for us, but the commitment to United needs to be there from him. If the coaching staff feel he's not ready and needs to develop his game a bit more then the onus is on him as a young player to go and prove himself in training/reserve games. Imagine the precedent that would be set if we caved in to the "play me more else I won't sign" demands of every kid with talent.

This line of argument can only be true if Chong doesn't exit. He hasn't an extension, just like Gomes. Plus he has been quite poor almost every time, even when being played in his natural position.

and he looked poor in all of them

As I told another person earlier (mariachi), a statement doesn't become true because one decides to repeat it every time. The only time he's ever been played properly was against Astana (home) and he was better than both Fred and Matic. He made an effort to make things happen but was continually let down by the midfield duo behind him and the three players ahead of/flanking him, especially Chong. In fact one can say he was the best in a very poor team and game; Rashford wasn't even good that day. Judging him in matches where he was played out of position - a position he has never featured in during his development and one he has no matching natural qualities to - and especially in a game when the entire team was horrible is not fair. If we were to go with this logic of him not playing well when given chances, players like Lingard, Mata, Matic, Fred, etc should have been shown the door a long time ago.

 

[lumeyes]

This is the breakdown of Gomes' minutes and employment this season thus far.

EPL - 1 game (9 minutes total) versus West Ham. United was 1-0 down and playing poorly, so, he came into a poorly functioning side that day. He was substituted on for Mata, however, instead of taking AM, the previously substituted Lingard went central and Gomes was reduced to playing wide left for those limited minutes.

Europa League - 3 games

vs. Astana (h) - Played 68 minutes in his natural AM slot alongside Chong and Greenwood.
vs. AZ Alkmaar (a) - Played the full 90 minutes, however, on the left side instead.
vs. Astana (a) - Played 88 minutes, however, on the left side. Side featured Laird, Garner, Levitt, Chong and Greenwood.

If he hasn't impressed in matches, contributing factors to that could be either that he's not playing in his natural performing position, or that he's not playing in first IX's that are anywhere close to being full strength. It's an argument that has to be taken into consideration. Greenwood has done superbly, however, he has had the benefit of playing with practical full strength United IX's. Gomes, on the other hand, has had to try to impress in teams with lesser overall quality.

It'd be disappointing if he leaves, to be honest. He'd end up a team like Dortmund or Leipzig, in AM, and developing playing in a correct position. I have a feeling that down the line, we'll regret not securing his contract.

Thanks for taking your time to breakdown his game time so far, and also point out real facts. Some people here won't bother to read though, but would prefer regurgitating arguments like "Ole sees him in training", "he hasn't taken his chance when played" bla bla bla. It should be pointed out that there have been games, especially in the early days, in which Greenwood looked very poor and lost, yet Ole kept faith in him - which is commendable. It would have been unfair to judge a kid so early, especially with when the team (read older players) was atrocious.

No one has said Gomes is the messiah, but he needs to be given a fair chance before judging him. The whole situation looks even more puzzling because there were times when he was pulled from U23 games, and everyone expected he would at least make the bench, all to no avail. One of those times he popped up and played a good game for England U20. This guy sees a weak and expired Mata (no offence meant) get ahead of him every time, and a year-long out-of-form Lingard also. He doesn't even get 20 minutes in his natural position, no not even 10 or 5. I am talking of games where we could afford to use him and other kids. I wonder how those who are attacking him here would say if he was their blood and kin. At this point I think the best thing for him is to leave for a mid-table team in the Netherlands or Spain.

 

[arthurka]

This is just pure confusion to me.

Just maybe Ole is just telling the truth most of the times?

 

[Bebestation]

Just maybe Ole is just telling the truth most of the times?

Which is? Il back him over the players anyway

 

[charlenefan]

Ole has actually been timid with youth. There have been numerous occasion when he had the chance to use one of the kids but he preferred Lingard over Greenwood, Young, Mata, Matic. As a matter of fact, McT came in and played much better than Matic, only to be relagated to the bench or even disappear from sight once Matic came back from injury. Quite a few times. It was only after the latter showed an embarrasing form time after time that he began to trust McT. He had no option. You can't put Ole on the same bracket as Klop for example

I assume you didn't type that with a straight face?

 

[HJ12]

Ole has actually been timid with youth. There have been numerous occasion when he had the chance to use one of the kids but he preferred Lingard over Greenwood, Young, Mata, Matic. As a matter of fact, McT came in and played much better than Matic, only to be relagated to the bench or even disappear from sight once Matic came back from injury. Quite a few times. It was only after the latter showed an embarrasing form time after time that he began to trust McT. He had no option. You can't put Ole on the same bracket as Klop for example

I'm very confused by this point. Ole timid with youth? We have the youngest average age of starting XI thus far this season out of all the premier league teams(https://www.premierleague.com/news/1336761). If anything, we are too much on the youthful side for a team chasing trophies/Europe. By way of comparison, we are at 24 years 312 days whereas both City and Liverpool are over 27 years. Ole himself admitted that we need more experience in the team but has been forced to play the youngsters more than he would've liked due to squad constraints. Do people expect the entire reserve team to be getting game time? Gradual integration with a solid, experienced, winning team would be a far better option but we don't even have that luxury.

We seem obsessed with the idea of having everyone on the field be in nappies these days. Ole can be accused of many of things (lack of tactical awareness, dragging feet with in-game management, etc.), but most certainly not of giving the younger players a shot.

 

[NecssryEvil]

I remember when Peyton Manning joined the local throw-ball team there was talk of his idea that it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert at your profession. Now, this is not his original thought, but it was a philosophy he believed in and he lived by this on the field as well as off the field.

So reading all these young player performance pages of current players as well as some of the young guys people would like to see signed, it is amazing how many players are written off so quickly without even coming close to this "magic" number. I know the first thing some might come back with is x player has been playing since he was 7 years old so has well over 10k hours in the sport. But, I am talking about a man playing a man's sport so I don't think it should include anything under the U23s. Some may disagree with my thinking there, which is fine to debate, but man, don't we need to give these kids a little more than a handful of senior appearances before deciding they are "shit"?

 

[Ekeke]

I remember when Peyton Manning joined the local throw-ball team there was talk of his idea that it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert at your profession. Now, this is not his original thought, but it was a philosophy he believed in and he lived by this on the field as well as off the field.

So reading all these young player performance pages of current players as well as some of the young guys people would like to see signed, it is amazing how many players are written off so quickly without even coming close to this "magic" number. I know the first thing some might come back with is x player has been playing since he was 7 years old so has well over 10k hours in the sport. But, I am talking about a man playing a man's sport so I don't think it should include anything under the U23s. Some may disagree with my thinking there, which is fine to debate, but man, don't we need to give these kids a little more than a handful of senior appearances before deciding they are "shit"?

With this philosophy how do you explain all the players we've sold?

I'll help you out. You can't give 10,000 hours of first team professional football to every young player. You can give a bit of time to a selection of players and usually at some point the club and the player parts ways. Only a few of them make it and they didnt play 10k hours either.

Gomes obviously has the technical skills to make it, will take a bit more time (assuming he doesnt leave) to show he has the mental side of the game too.

 

[NecssryEvil]

With this philosophy how do you explain all the players we've sold?

I'll help you out. You can't give 10,000 hours of first team professional football to every young player. You can give a bit of time to a selection of players and usually at some point the club and the player parts ways. Only a few of them make it and they didnt play 10k hours either.

Gomes obviously has the technical skills to make it, will take a bit more time (assuming he doesnt leave) to show he has the mental side of the game too.

I am not saying you have to give someone 10k hours of first team time before you can even make a judgement. I am saying the thought is that it takes ~ 5 years (10000 / 8 hours a day * 260ish work days in a year) of putting in the time, effort and practice at the highest level to become elite. You are right, of course the mental side of the game is important for him to show he can handle. But, while 10k may be too big a number for you to agree with, it's damn sure takes more than the 30ish games Gomes has played at the U23s and above at United to figure all that out.

 

[lumeyes]

I assume you didn't type that with a straight face?

I meant what I wrote

I'm very confused by this point. Ole timid with youth? We have the youngest average age of starting XI thus far this season out of all the premier league teams(https://www.premierleague.com/news/1336761). If anything, we are too much on the youthful side for a team chasing trophies/Europe. By way of comparison, we are at 24 years 312 days whereas both City and Liverpool are over 27 years. Ole himself admitted that we need more experience in the team but has been forced to play the youngsters more than he would've liked due to squad constraints. Do people expect the entire reserve team to be getting game time? Gradual integration with a solid, experienced, winning team would be a far better option but we don't even have that luxury.

We seem obsessed with the idea of having everyone on the field be in nappies these days. Ole can be accused of many of things (lack of tactical awareness, dragging feet with in-game management, etc.), but most certainly not of giving the younger players a shot.

I think the part in bold clarifies my point to an extent. A more daring manager would have given Laird some of the game times Ashley Young has used up, I mean in matches where we could afford that. What was the point of playing Lingard at no 10 versus Astana away for the entire 90 mins, while Gomes rotted at left wing? Football is not all about pressing. Matic was always coming back to displace a better McT until it got embarrasing.

No, a lot of people here are not obsessed with the idea of having everyone in nappies. However, given the poor state of the club, the likes of Mata, Young, Lingard, etc should not be having so much game time.

 

[charlenefan]

I meant what I wrote

That's unfortunate then

 

[Based Adnan]

Has an offer from Barcelona which he'll probably take according to Howson

Not good enough to give a chance here though based on a few minutes on the left wing.

 

[Irwin99]

Maybe he'd do better in a different league. I have to be honest and say I was a bit underwhelmed whenever he made an appearance in the first team given the hype surrounding him. Sometimes it just doesn't happen. I remember SAF saying that if Guiseppe Rossi didn't make here then we might as well just close the academy. He didn't make it here.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Has an offer from Barcelona which he'll probably take according to Howson

Not good enough to give a chance here though based on a few minutes on the left wing.

Those minutes on the wing are his chance.

 

[rotherham_red]

The Barca link doesn't make sense considering that they have the likes of Alena and Puig barely making matchday squads themselves

 

[lsd]

Has an offer from Barcelona which he'll probably take according to Howson

Not good enough to give a chance here though based on a few minutes on the left wing.

He will never be a Barcelona player in a million years

 

[Red_toad]

Has an offer from Barcelona which he'll probably take according to Howson

Not good enough to give a chance here though based on a few minutes on the left wing.

Howson isn't an ITK, he's just repeating stuff that was put about just before he signed his last contract. He'll get no game time at Barca, so whatever Howson says has as much credibility as anyone who posts on the Caf.

 

[AltiUn]

Has an offer from Barcelona which he'll probably take according to Howson

Not good enough to give a chance here though based on a few minutes on the left wing.

I’m going to assume they’ve been in his ear for a while, think they contacted him before his first professional deal too. It’s no secret he has a hard on for Barca, don’t think it’s a great career move though, personally.

 

[Bebestation]

I’m going to assume they’ve been in his ear for a while, think they contacted him before his first professional deal too. It’s no secret he has a hard on for Barca, don’t think it’s a great career move though, personally.

It's more his style & his physique as stupid as it sounds its true. Personally I'm okay with it. I'd consider this as a long term loan deal.

Either Gomes goes there and fails. Or he goes there and does wonders & I'm sure he comes back here and tells you ' I told you so'.

It's just too much of a good opportunity for both things - to go to Barcelona but also to come back to United the bigger man like Pogba did. I'm sure he will want to come back home if that option comes up in the future.

I always have a soft spot for the England National team and them going abroad to broaden their horizons - rather Barcelona than City, Liverpool or Arsenal.

 

[Red_toad]

I’m going to assume they’ve been in his ear for a while, think they contacted him before his first professional deal too. It’s no secret he has a hard on for Barca, don’t think it’s a great career move though, personally.

Where did you get that gem from? He's 100% a United fan and they're his dream club, but apparently he's got a stiffy for Barca, something he's never mentioned in any interview....

If he gets offered a good deal and assurances of playing time, he's not going anywhere else.

 

[AltiUn]

Where did you get that gem from? He's 100% a United fan and they're his dream club, but apparently he's got a stiffy for Barca, something he's never mentioned in any interview....

If he gets offered a good deal and assurances of playing time, he's not going anywhere else.

Have a look through his twitter likes, he clearly has some affinity to Barca.

 

[Red_toad]

Have a look through his twitter likes, he clearly has some affinity to Barca.

Yeah mate has a hard on for a team, but 99% of his posts are England and United.

 

[JJ12]

Have a look through his twitter likes, he clearly has some affinity to Barca.

Not quite

 

[NWRed]

Those minutes on the wing are his chance.

He's not a winger, so if that is his chance then he never had a hope.

 

[rotherham_red]

He's not a winger, so if that is his chance then he never had a hope.

Neither was Fletcher, but it didn't stop him from breaking through.

 

[Ekeke]

Neither was Fletcher, but it didn't stop him from breaking through.

He was widely critisized until moved into the middle, his actual position

 

[Based Adnan]

If people want to consider youth players playing out of position in the first team as being given a chance then so be it. In my opinion a youth player isn't given a chance until they can show what they can (or can't) do in their actual position.

 

[rotherham_red]

He was widely critisized until moved into the middle, his actual position

But he still got through and only got moved to the middle on the basis of his performances from the right. I.e. he proved himself. If anything, Angel has potentially more to offer from the wing than Fletcher ever did.

I'm not saying he's crap, or that he is deserving of his current situation. I want him to succeed, and he's my personal favourite out of all the young players here right now, but to say he can't impress enough to be given further chances from the wing is absolute horseshit.

 

[NWRed]

Neither was Fletcher, but it didn't stop him from breaking through.

Fletcher was derided by a lot of fans when he first broke into the first team due to poor performances, a contributing factor being he was played out of position on the wing.

He eventually made it because SAF kept faith in him and allowed him to develop, when he did start performing well enough to deserve his place in the team it was in his natural position in the centre of midfield.

 

[cyberman]

If people want to consider youth players playing out of position in the first team as being given a chance then so be it. In my opinion a youth player isn't given a chance until they can show what they can (or can't) do in their actual position.

He hasnt got a position yet ffs!
Players arent born as defenders, left wingers etc. Hell our youth set up purposely play youngsters in all different positions so theyre comfortable in many scenarios
Pogna played a lot on our RW, Pique as a FB etc

 

[billybee99]

Has an offer from Barcelona which he'll probably take according to Howson

Not good enough to give a chance here though based on a few minutes on the left wing.

Oh, you think he'll get minutes with Barca?

 

[Red_toad]

Neither was Fletcher, but it didn't stop him from breaking through.

Hmm Fletcher started out as a winger...'He was initially seen as a right midfielder in the David Beckham mould and was tipped by many to break into the first-team with ease and stay there for many years to come,[16] but as he developed he came to be viewed more as a central midfielder'

Gomes can play as a left sided player, he was very good there in pre-season games, not so much in actually competative first team games.

 

[DBT85]

Hmm Fletcher started out as a winger...'He was initially seen as a right midfielder in the David Beckham mould and was tipped by many to break into the first-team with ease and stay there for many years to come,[16] but as he developed he came to be viewed more as a central midfielder'

Gomes can play as a left sided player, he was very good there in pre-season games, not so much in actually competative first team games.

I swear in the podcast interview with him he said he was always a CM and fergie knew that playing RM was not his best position.

 

[Ekeke]

But he still got through and only got moved to the middle on the basis of his performances from the right. I.e. he proved himself. If anything, Angel has potentially more to offer from the wing than Fletcher ever did.

I'm not saying he's crap, or that he is deserving of his current situation. I want him to succeed, and he's my personal favourite out of all the young players here right now, but to say he can't impress enough to be given further chances from the wing is absolute horseshit.

I agree, but I wouldnt say Fletcher impressed enough on the right to get a chance in the middle. He didnt look right out there, especially when there was talk from somewhere (maybe just pundits?) that he can be our new Beckham, and his crossing wasnt very good, and had all the "Fergie's son" talk before being played in his proper position and instantly looking better.

 

[theklr]

Problem for Gomes now is that we don’t have any fodder teams left to play since getting through EL and League cup starters.

If he’d agree to a contract (or we would have given him a better one), he would have had at least 2-3 games with more play time, but now his chance here is up more or less.

Really a sad story, he might not be all that but woulda been nice to have seen him some more.