Under Ole, Matic has come back and displaced McT exactly once. To quote you, "that's not true at all. Repeating it a thousand times over will not make it true either."
28
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 6
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 0
- Yellow cards
- 0
- Status
86 pages for 4 appearances
It's just 86 pages of "If he's not in the squad for [fixture] then he's gone". I imagine that will continue until the end of the season or when he signs a pre-contract agreement with someone else, whichever comes first.
Sometimes I think some posters on here must surely be related to some of our players (ex/current) since they refuse to acknowledge facts and create their own realities:
- If Ole had played Laird - Hasn't Laird had a few injuries this year? Maybe he would have had a chance to play more 1st team football if not for that!.
- Brandon Williams is playing 1st team football for us.
- Tuanzebe had chances until he got injured.
- Greenwood is getting chances.
- Garner has been around the first team.
- Chong and Gomes were given chances: Maybe they failed to impress, maybe it's the contract situation...
Lovely goal. Just sign on a bit longer lad. It will happen
Lingard played against Astana to build sharpness and confidence. Which led to him playing really well in wins v Spurs and City.
I like Gomes but he needs to earn his games. Once he shows Ole he's better than the likes of Lingard he will play more.
That's the issue right there. Ole giving Gomes opportunities in the first IX. What chance does he have to impress when United are playing with 9 men?!
He did that because he was given a fair chance, playing in a better team from his natural position. Gomes has mostly played out of position in piss poor teams.
The two are not on the same scale.
My Liverpool friend mocked and derided Fletcher. And that was when he was beginning to show signs of good player in midfield. It took almost a year from then before he reached his peak which was cut short by ill health. He called him Fergie's love child. Fletcher got time in a more natural position, backed by patience.
You missed the point. Your repeated claim, that Matic came back and displaced a better McTominay again and again, "until it got embarrasing," is completely false.
Today's match showed the part in bold was a bad decision, just like so many before and others that will come in the future if he continues to play. That was a game for Gomes to get reasonable minutes as a number 10 in order to continue his development. One of the games he should have had at least 30 to 45 mins in his proper position to give the club a better understanding of what to do with him in the second half of the league. But the entire 90 mins got wasted on Lingard because he needed to build his sharpness and confidence. Like he was an important player for the team before that injury.
Again I am not saying Gomes should have played today. I just can't understand anyone defending Ole or blaming Gomes under the circumstances.
Seems you prefer to go in a cycle. I stand by words, Matic came back and displaced a better playing McT just because he was a more experienced/older player. If you want to bet on this we can go back and pull up those games. There were of course games when Matic played well but in general he should have found a position on the bench earlier than he did.
I disagree. Lingard was very good in those two games. Gomes needs to show he's a better option against low block teams. He should be with his skillset. He's got creativity running through him. But he should earn it.
It will be a moot point with Pogba back because he's light years ahead of either right now.
No, I prefer people be honest and not knowingly present falsehoods as facts in order to try and win a debate. And since you've chosen to double down, I'm forced to assume that's what you're doing.
By all means, pull up last seasons fixture list, see how far that gets you. Matic was rested for the FA Cup tie against Reading, with McTominay starting, as is customary for cup games against weaker opposition. When Matic got injured, McTominay took his place in the team for the league games against Liverpool, Palace and Saints and away in the CL against PSG, before Matic got it back upon returning, being preferred for the league games against Arsenal and Watford, and in the FA Cup against Wolves. Undeserved, perhaps, but it remains the only time it happened. After that, the only games McT didn't play were the games against West Ham and City. Do you know who else didn't play in those games? Matic.
So, again, your claim was completely false. Had you stopped at "McTominay got dropped undeservedly to make room for Matic," that would have been fair, but you had to go ahead and claim it happened repeatedly. Not only that, but repeatedly until it got embarrassing. You even repeated the claim. And you had the cheek to call it a fact.
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I don't have at the tips of my fingers all the details of all the games from the time Matic became more or less a liability - apart from his positional play - till when McT fully took over but I am willing to dig deep because I believe it happened more than once. Not necessarily when Matic came back from injury, I admit that was an error on my part to say when Matic came back from injury. I would be the first to withdraw my comment if it proves that I am wrong that Matic displaced a better playing McT more than once after coming back to the team. I'll look at the past fixture when I have the time. Yes Matic was forced out of the first team after it became obvious there was no way to justify his continual selection over McT. That should have happened earlier.
Lingard wasn't good against Astana, not by any stretch. I would say he was merely above average in a game he was meant to dominate or at least show signs he could. Perhaps we have different yardsticks for measurement but my firm recollectionn was that he scored a deflected goal but otherwise didn't really offer much apart from running around. He shouldn't have lasted that long on that day, especially since it was a game meant to get him back to his feet after his injury laf off. I can't recall the other game you are referring to
I said he was good against Spurs and City. He played against Astana to build some sharpness for those games and it paid off
Tried doing a more indepth search and didn't really succeed in finding out as much as I targeted, due to both time and maybe not using the right keywords. Or perhaps the facts not supporting my argument. I get your point and agree that my use of the word again and again was wrong. I believe that there was more than one instances in which Matic came back - not necessarily from injury - and displaced a better playing McT. However, that would still not justify the word "again and again". That should be something happening more than 3 times at least. My apologies. Chances are that I have I have mistakenly used the fact that I saw Matic staying as a first 11 longer than I thought was necessary. And in actuality I had different scenarios in mind while writing and didn't have the time to demarcate the boundaries properly - again no excuse because I know the high cost that can come with wrong information. I will still try to dig deeper but I believe your argument in presenting "falsehood as facts" is correct and that "McTominay got dropped undeservedly to make room for Matic" was the appropriate way to put it, even if it happened two times.
Ok, thought you had the Astana game in mind.
However I still believe that Gomes should have had at least 30 of the 90 minutes at no 10. Especially with Levitt and Garner - people he understands much better - anchoring the midfield. I haven't seen anything from Lingard in recent times to make me even think he is capable of raising his game when he doesn't have the space to run around, as was afforded in those two matches, especially vs Man City. In any case, his rating was perhaps one of the lowest and he played in the most influential position. I used to think that he had a dip in form but after more than one year and playing close attention to his play in recent matches, I am convinced he is not even good enough to be a squad player.
I'm more irritated by Pereira getting game time over Gomes, rather than Lingard. At least Lingard offers something different. When Gomes was on the pitch, he performed no worse than Pereira, except he's a more intriguing prospect by virtue of being 4.5 years younger, having higher technical quality, and having better vision.
Difference is, Pereira has had dozens of matches to leave an impression regardless of poor performance. We're prioritizing a lesser talent who just last year made it known he was willing to leave United. So basically he was in the same situation as Gomes. He got rewarded with a contract and playing time.
The thing with Pereira is that he frustrates even his supporters. He is capable of doing some nice things but more often than not he is either lost or doing something wrong, especially when it matters. His failure in the last game to pick out an obviously and clearly unmarked Greenwood instead of a Martial who was being closely followed is one example. It's shocking how we ended up in this situation where the choice has to made from Lingard, Mata and him. Hopefully Ole and the board are not thinking of not signing someone in this transfer window. It doesn't matter if they think there is no value in the market. We are still two to three injuries away from being a crap team
Ole, champion of youth, can Angel get a game now?
You want to throw him to the wolves?
We're gonna lose the kid
He is better than Lingard and Mata. Offers more than Pereira too. Such bad business from us that he hasn't signed on and got his opportunity this season.
Of course. Is Williams being thrown to the Wolves? Eventually that has to happen.' Eventually he has to get used to dealing with the crowd. The only thing is that he shouldn't start every match. However, Lingard currently isn't doing that anyways so if Gomes takes up his minutes it just means he likely gets sub appearances and slowly gets brought into the fold.
Better to let him develop than to persist with Lingard at this point. This isn't some call to make Gomes as some savior. It's to say that Lingard's production isn't worth prioritizing over Gomes' development. We can potentially convince Gomes to stay at United by giving Lingard's minutes to Gomes.
I pretty much correct my earlier post the other day
If there was a manager that could continue to play MMM rather than buy a target man upfront like someone like Pochettino would go for - whilst also having the ability to entice Gomes in to signing in to a contract then I'd let them manage United for rest of the season.
Absolutely gutted.
Absolutely gutted.
Based on what?
Based on the fact he has eyes. Anyone can see his quality if they have followed him in the unders. He might not have stood out in any of his senior appearances, but as with all players, even more so with youngsters, he needs a run of games. The run of games that has been given to Lingard. At the very least he wouldn't have been any worse than him.
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Of course he would.
Workrate and the ability to press is key for the number 10 position in United's system. It is not suited to Gomes at all.
In that system, the number 10 has more defensive responsibility than the wide players, which is why Ole plays hard working players like Pereira and Lingard there and Gomes wide more often.
Even from there, his lack of workrate cost the team the winner away to Astana.
If your number 10 his key attributes have to be pressing and workrate, i think something is wrong with the tactic.
Even ultra defensive Mourinho his number 10 was supposed to be a good footballer with technical ability and the ability to create chances.
More than that, Lingards first touch has been horrendous. Gomes technical ability alone would have made sure his contribution in that position surpassed the current Lingard, at least in terms of assist/goals.
I'm torn on Ole but something tells me that if he's gone we have a chance of keeping this guy.
Because that worked out so well for Garner and Chong. Some of you are starting to sound like the Ravel crowd, who to this day still thinks he 'has a shot' at the highest level.
Remember, the plan was to play Pogba (who is not good defensively) as one of 2 central midfielders and 3 forwards in attack.
France played Matuidi wide left to add more defensive solidity when they played Pogba in a midfield 2 (and Sissoko on the right on occasion). You need balance, something Gomes wouldn't provide.
Mata rarely starts in the number 10 role for a similar reason.
Haha! Well, it's impossible to contribute less than Lingard in terms of goals and assists!
The point was simply that United need energy, workrate and defensive stability from the number 10 position in the current set up. It's something Gomes can't provide which is why he doesn't play there.
Makes no sense though. Mata has played his fair share of games there too. Contract thing is probably a decent explanation for why he has not played but I'd like to see Lingard and Mata sold in January regardless. We have to give him a chance at that point, and I'd like that.
Mata starts very rarely, far less than Pereira and Lingard. He is mainly being used as an impact sub when the team is chasing the game.
I would be surprised if there were many examples of starting lineups this season of Mata at 10 behind 3 genuine forwards.
The contract situation may have something to do with his limited opportunities but when he gets an opportunity, it is usually out wide because the number 10 role in this system has a defensive component that Gomes isn't suited to.
Lingard didn't really play well vs Spurs and City. He was his usual average self, our team winning those games with him starting doesn't mean he played well
How the hell do you come to this conclusion?
A lot of supporters evaluate Gomes based on what he do when he is on the ball. The problem is when he is off it if you compare him to Lingard, Pereira and even Mata. And remember; a player spend 90 % of the game off the ball, maybe even more if you are an attacker.
Gomes has disappointed me a bit. I would expect a young player to come in with enthusiasm and drive. Instead he acts like a veteran past his peak who lost his mobility and expect everyone to adjust. Even Zlatan gave us a lot more movement (especially in the build up).
Gomes has disappointed me a bit. I would expect a young player to come in with enthusiasm and drive. Instead he acts like a veteran past his peak who lost his mobility and expect everyone to adjust. Even Zlatan gave us a lot more movement (especially in the build up).
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