I wouldn't be quoting the likes of McCarra and Custis at me if you want to retain any credibility. Your CM looks so threadbare that a workaday performance by Anderson gets lauded to the skies.
Replace CM with "whole squad", and "a workaday performance by Anderso"n into "one win against Barcelona in the midst of another horrendous trophyless season" and that's pretty much why no-one gives a shit what you say.
You're crap on here when Gillespie isn't here for a few weeks in January when finally the prospect of ONE trophy, ANY trophy is on.
Snorey feckin' sucks.
feck off Murph.
You could go away for 10 years and Dumpstar will still be a retard.
Lucas is fine. He was scape-goated by your lot when you were a disaster under Rafa, but he wasn't the problem.
De Gea will be fine. There were mitigating circumstances to both goals today. Don't hold your breath waiting for him to flop.
Normally when I come on here and have a whistle I have you humping one of my legs and Pogue the other. Where's Pogue, you had a lover's tiff?
Stop giving yourself credit you don't deserve dumpling.
The only reason you're here is for our entertainment.
Now go say something stupid.
There you go.
Until potential is realised, that's all it is. In my opinion, Anderson has yet to realise the potential which United fans are convinced he has. He may do it this season and if he does I'll be on here to hold my hands up. I just don't see it.
You make it seem like United fans are the only people who rate him. What about Fergie?
He doesn't often persist with players too long unless he's convinced they're up to scratch. He's utterly ruthless if he feels someone won't make the grade.
M'n'M from the internet doesn't rate Anderson. Someone better tell Fergie. Yesterday's game must have been pretty painful viewing for you after this bump.
I assume your manager is also a fan, yes?
And I fail to see how another single game should make me change my opinion on him. As I said, I will be fully prepared to hold my hands up if he has a good season. For £18m you'd certainly expect to see something on a regular basis pretty soon.
And I fail to see how another single game should make me change my opinion on him. As I said, I will be fully prepared to hold my hands up if he has a good season. For £18m you'd certainly expect to see something on a regular basis pretty soon.
Lucas is the better player for the moment.
I can't see how that is in debate.
That said Anderson had a promising end to last season...a good start to this and we might see this potential come to fruition.
I can't see how that is in debate.
That said Anderson had a promising end to last season...a good start to this and we might see this potential come to fruition.
Lucas must be a pretty good player then, if he is clearly the better player... I don't watch him, but listening to my scouser mates you wouldn't think so... You live and learn.
Yes, Fergie sticks by players who won't make the grade because he's a Man United fan.
Some of you will really come out with the most amazing shite to justify yourselves.
You won't hold your hands up. It's pretty obvious that even when Anderson has played very well and shown huge potential and talent you're all happy to deny it ever happened.
Don't see why that will ever change. I guess it doesn't matter either. If he's playing well, Fergie recognises it and our fans recognise it, I'm not sure where the views of some Liverpool and Arsenal fans matter.
Remember, Ronaldo was shite... until he left us.
I don't know any match going scouser who thinks he's anything but a good player...
Lucas is ok, but his aspiration is to be the next Gilberto Silva, both for club and country.
Nothing wrong with that, but Anderson's ultimate ambition is to be a replacement for Paul Scholes (or maybe even latter years Ryan Giggs).
No disrespect, but it's a lot easier for Lucas to fulfil his aspirations due to the role he's trying to fill. It's simply easier to be a Gilberto Silva than a Paul Scholes or Ryan Giggs.
It's much more difficult for Anderson, his task is far greater, but potentially the rewards we'll see are much greater than Liverpool will ever get from Lucas in terms of the level of player we can produce.
Because let's be honest, you'd rather produce a Scholes/Giggs than a Gilberto Silva.
Fair enough mate, just telling it how I see it... I actually have one that rates Anderson better than Lucas, although he'd never directly say it... or maybe he would. Opinions eh?
Replacement for Scholes? I know you're trying to stand up for one of ours, but it's not going to happen.
Obviously not like-for-like.
We never do like-for-like when replacing big players.
I actually see more resemblance to latter years Giggs.
Fair enough, I think he still has some way to go. Encouraging display on Sunday though.
What bollocks. You obviously haven't played football at any level if you're going to say something like that.
You don't get much for £18m these days. I'd have thought Aquilani and Johnson would be proof of that.
Jesus fecking christ.
Obviously. If he had, given his range of attributes, he'd be one of the best players on the planet by now.
As it stands, he's exceptional (or very good) in bursts. He then gets injured, and takes a while to hit top form again. The situation is nowhere near as concerning as some fans make out, especially given that he's suffered a broken leg and a torn cruciate ligament already. How unlucky is that?!
It's not exactly an Obertan situation whereby we recognise his talent, yet scratch our eyeballs out as he fails to replicate it over and over again. Anderson has had some immense games; against Arsenal, for example, and then he's had some very good performances against you lot when you were decent (amongst other Premiership teams). He's also been the best United player on the pitch against Chelsea, going toe to toe with Essien and coming off well.
The way people in this thread are talking, it's as if he's been some sort of passenger in every game he's played since joining. The conclusion to be drawn from this is that these same people haven't actually seen a lot of him.
It's not bollocks.
Which is why players who play in the role Scholes and Giggs play in generally go for amongst the highest fees of any position on average.
It's a much more difficult position to find top level talent for, therefore there's less players good enough for those roles, therefore they cost more than water carriers.
Gilberto Silva was amongst the best in that role. But even at his peak he would only have been worth a fraction of a player amongst the best in Scholes' and Giggs' roles.
Why do you think that is?
Something wrong?
It's fairly obvious that if you're trying to be the next Scholes or Giggs, your sights are set a little higher than being a water carrier. And you'll therefore find it more difficult to fulfil that ambition.
I used to laugh at Lucas a couple seasons ago but, he's become a very solid player and at least on the back of last season, he was the better player of the two due to his consistency. Of very good games, Anderson was better but, then he also played some very poor ones (granted I didn't see every Lucas game).
I think this season though we'll see Anderson over come the lack of consistency. It looks like he is going to start the season as a first choice CM and that will help him tremendously.
Anderson if he continues to play as he has so far this pre-season, will maybe make the Brazil national team but, it won't be at the expense of Lucas. I think they'll be selected for different roles on the team and there aren't that many Brazilian players that are better at Lucas in the role he plays right now. If SAF does continue to use Anderson in Carrick's stead, then I think he'll even take over from Lucas. He may not be as good defensively but, his ability on the ball will give him the edge playing out the back like Brazil likes to do.
I know going into this season who I'd rather have and that's Anderson. I'd take Lucas if Anderson hadn't finished off the season like he did as well as start so well this pre-season.
I think this season though we'll see Anderson over come the lack of consistency. It looks like he is going to start the season as a first choice CM and that will help him tremendously.
Anderson if he continues to play as he has so far this pre-season, will maybe make the Brazil national team but, it won't be at the expense of Lucas. I think they'll be selected for different roles on the team and there aren't that many Brazilian players that are better at Lucas in the role he plays right now. If SAF does continue to use Anderson in Carrick's stead, then I think he'll even take over from Lucas. He may not be as good defensively but, his ability on the ball will give him the edge playing out the back like Brazil likes to do.
I know going into this season who I'd rather have and that's Anderson. I'd take Lucas if Anderson hadn't finished off the season like he did as well as start so well this pre-season.
Darren Fletcher's probably a good example to use here. He has nowhere near the talent that Anderson does but, at his best a couple of years ago, there were very few better in that role out there!
It would be a waste of Anderson's talents for him to grow into that position, though I suppose it must be admitted that positional awareness and discipline are talents in their own right that are pre-requisite for being good in that role (probably much easier to be good at than passing, shielding and dribbling, mind).
It's an utterly retarded argument.
The 'Water carrier' role has produced players like Redondo, Vieira, Souness, Davids. And you arbitrarily pick out Gilberto fecking Silva as representing the ceiling for what Lucas is aiming for.
It's not a matter of 'oh this role is so difficult because only the best play it'. If anything, holding players tend to mature later, due to the positional discipline and intelligence it requires, skills that are usually learned over time. It's a question of fulfilling your potential. Lucas is, Anderson is very much up in the air and could still go either way.
Ok, who would take Lucas for Anderson right now... show of hands...
I think he's making a valid point, he possibly could've phrased it better. I think it's easier to be just a good player yet be a water-carrier or holding midfielder for a top club, and an important one at that, while to be a playmaker or someone who commands the midfield you have to be very fecking good.
In the past decade we've had people like Butt, Carrick or Fletcher do the role for a number of years, Arsenal have had Gilberto, Flamini and Song - not poor players but at the same time not top notch either, and yet still they were important players. While as a playmaker or commanding midfielder there's been Scholes, Keane, Vieira and Fabregas. That doesn't mean there hasn't been exceptional holding players.
Or holding players are just ridiculously under-appreciated, I guess.
In the past decade we've had people like Butt, Carrick or Fletcher do the role for a number of years, Arsenal have had Gilberto, Flamini and Song - not poor players but at the same time not top notch either, and yet still they were important players. While as a playmaker or commanding midfielder there's been Scholes, Keane, Vieira and Fabregas. That doesn't mean there hasn't been exceptional holding players.
Or holding players are just ridiculously under-appreciated, I guess.
This isn't about Liverpool v United's spending. It's been suggested that Benitez, with a blank chequebook, would do a better job than Mancicni. & I for one agree with that suggestion - Being able to compete financially for any player on the planet, do you really believe that Rafa would spend his time in the bargain basement section, as he quite often did whilst he was at Anfield ?
So why, in your opinion, wouldn't he do a better job if he could sign £20 million plus players, as opposed to the £5 million average joes that was more the norm during his time as Liverpool's manager ?
moving the goalposts here, Brwned.
Keane and Viera are different players to the likes of Scholes and Giggs. They are combative players who have more often than not been charged with the main defensive responsibility in midfield, same as Lucas is. And yet you choose to use Butt, Fletcher and Flamini as the benchmark for the role. Conversely, we might as well bring up players like Danny Murphy as important playmaking midfielders who were important but not top notch. Why set the benchmark there?
Going on your post, they are indeed ridiculously underrated. I look at players like Souness, Redondo, Rijkaard, Desailly, Matthaus, Hierro and I see magnificient players. It's a great disservice to that position to say that what they did what so much easier than what players like Scholes and Giggs do.
It really seems like a lot of people are just ignoring all the good matches Anderson has produced the last year.
The scousers and Arsenal fans I can understand, as they probably don't watch us that much and thus just go by a general view point, but the way United fans are also trying to make Anderson out to be this super-failed average player is a bit baffling.
The scousers and Arsenal fans I can understand, as they probably don't watch us that much and thus just go by a general view point, but the way United fans are also trying to make Anderson out to be this super-failed average player is a bit baffling.
Yes, of course, but water-carriers they are not. You might choose to call them defensive midfielders (I personally wouldn't, but there you go) but then I don't think that's the role he was talking about (although the saying it's easier to create than destroy comes to mind). He specifically used the word water-carrier. Now I'm no expert on any of those names but the one I have seen a decent amount of - Matthaus - was as far away from a water-carrier as you can be. And that's the role Lucas is fulfilling now, and I'd be surprised to see him step up and take on any more responsibility than that. Anderson, on the other hand, is one who will take on more responsibility - it's whether he does that in a positive way is the question.
Maybe I've misunderstood Kraftwerker's argument, though.
Nah, you've pretty much got it spot on.
Lucas is a water carrier, a role he plays quite well without too much fuss.
Comparisons with great midfielders such as Matthaus are completely redundant.
Just like Benitez did a better job than Mancini at Inter.
City must be salivating at the thought of being number three in Benitez's hat-trick of ruining clubs.
Lucas > Anderson at this moment for time and i don't think theres even an argument for that. Reckon Ando will improve leaps and bounds this season though, he knows its time to step up.
Which is a massive assumption, really, though I didn't actually disagree or agree that he would be any worse or better than Mancini. I'm not convinced he'd make them a force in world football, mind. I know he won the European Cup for Liverpool and that your lot feel some sort of connection with him on that basis but, taking the external viewpoint, he was a pretty massive spastic at times whilst managing your team.
If it has to be argued, then just because he can compete for any player, it doesn't automatically mean that he'll do any better than Mancini. His record in the transfer market is poor irrespective of the amount of money he's spent on individual players (look at Fergie's record by comparison when dipping in the bargain basement, though I don't suppose it's fair to compare anyone to such a genius). This is a convincing enough point by itself as to why he may not automatically turn out better than Mancini. Postulating anything more than that is fortune-telling.
I could quite easily see him making a complete bollocks of it all if he went to City. The Inter experience was laughable, even if circumstances were different. Mancini was miles better there, that's for sure.
Nobody? Not as clear cut as some make it out then is it....
Was it Valencia at Old Trafford where he was absolutely sensational?
And it took you this long to come to that conclusion?