But Pogues watched him play two games (one v Chelsea where he played like a complete tard) and swears his world class..honest, he's a leading expert on the field of Lucas. I just don't know anymore
But Pogues watched him play two games (one v Chelsea where he played like a complete tard) and swears his world class..honest, he's a leading expert on the field of Lucas. I just don't know anymore
The magnet's still working, I see.
Watch Lucas pick up an unlucky streak of red cards and own goals now, Richard Dunne style.
Fingers crossed.
I don't understand the sudden Lucas wankfest. He didn't even play that well on Sunday. He did alright, probably the best I've seen him play but that's not saying much. It's not like you can call him a big game player either, like Fletch was for us, because he was absolute tripe against Chelsea. All he did yesterday was foul, he committed SIX in fact and should have been booked. He did a good job at breaking up our play but as i say, had he been booked when he should have been he wouldn't have been able to harass like he did.
He probably has received criticism that has been unfair over the last 12 months but it's only the exaggerated criticism that has been unfair. The reason he was criticised still remains though, because he's not good enough. Not even close.
As for a debate between him or Anderson, even though they aren't even similar in style, i'd have Anderson every time. Purely because Anderson has turned in several top top drawer performances in amongst his utter utter shit ones which give me hope that it's just consistency that is required.
This forum confuses me. United fans get slagged for over hyping their players and here we are, for some reason, bigging up an average player from our biggest enemy.
He probably has received criticism that has been unfair over the last 12 months but it's only the exaggerated criticism that has been unfair. The reason he was criticised still remains though, because he's not good enough. Not even close.
As for a debate between him or Anderson, even though they aren't even similar in style, i'd have Anderson every time. Purely because Anderson has turned in several top top drawer performances in amongst his utter utter shit ones which give me hope that it's just consistency that is required.
This forum confuses me. United fans get slagged for over hyping their players and here we are, for some reason, bigging up an average player from our biggest enemy.
I don't understand the sudden Lucas wankfest. He didn't even play that well on Sunday. He did alright, probably the best I've seen him play but that's not saying much. It's not like you can call him a big game player either, like Fletch was for us, because he was absolute tripe against Chelsea. All he did yesterday was foul, he committed SIX in fact and should have been booked. He did a good job at breaking up our play but as i say, had he been booked when he should have been he wouldn't have been able to harass like he did.
He probably has received criticism that has been unfair over the last 12 months but it's only the exaggerated criticism that has been unfair. The reason he was criticised still remains though, because he's not good enough. Not even close.
As for a debate between him or Anderson, even though they aren't even similar in style, i'd have Anderson every time. Purely because Anderson has turned in several top top drawer performances in amongst his utter utter shit ones which give me hope that it's just consistency that is required.
This forum confuses me. United fans get slagged for over hyping their players and here we are, for some reason, bigging up an average player from our biggest enemy.
There are no rules about what we can or can't discuss and who we can or can't praise. At the end of the day, this Lucas bloke did more or less exactly what Anderson did to become a folk hero at United. He bossed midfield in a massive game against their bitter rivals.
I bumped this thread because I remember pointing out a while back that he was better than most gave him credit for and the general response was a load of green smilies at the mere suggestion he could develop into a decent player. A quick search dug up this thread as the one in which he had been discussed in the most detail. The presence of Anderson's name in the title has caused a lot of people to launch into a knee-jerk defence of our own Brazilian and a lot of righteous indignation about him being (allegedly) accused of being the inferior player of the two (despite there being not one post in this entire thread from any United fan claiming this to be the case)
I don't fully understand why people have got so defensive here, nor do I understand why it's somehow against the rules of the caf to offer our opinion on whether or not a young footballer is actually any good. I'm gonna repeat myself one last time here by saying that I don't think Lucas will become a better player than Anderson, nor would I ever dream of swapping one for the other, if we had the choice.
However, I do think Lucas is a much better player than he has been given credit for and Anderson is not as good a player (not yet anyway) as many would like to believe. This obviously causes grave offence to some on here but I guess I can live with that.
Lucas had his best game for a while yesterday. I think the biggest advantage he has over Anderson at this current stage is that he knows his limitations. This has at times held him back against lesser teams but if you want someone that can do a decent midfield performance without much creativity then you'd go for Lucas over Anderson. Everytime I see Anderson play I struggle to see why he's loved so much by you lot. When you first bought him I was a little worried because I thought he would develop into a top class attacking midfielder, thankfully most of the time it looks like someone needs to remind him that he's Brazilian.
Thats just the thing, he didn't boss the midfield however way you look at it. The tidy work done by Mascherano, the ground covered by Benayoun, Kuyt, Aurelio and Torres goes unnoticed in your assessment. Additionally, I thought the game was evenly balanced and for the first time in a long while against a big domestic opposition, our midfield actually wasn't dominated.
I don't really know what Lucas has done to warrant such a perception of him from you. As for Anderson, his struggles have all been documented, you know the usual, insufficient stamina, over ambitious passing, woeful shooting and consistency issues. However, inspite of all of these, I am still of the view that our young inconsistent Brazilian is better than Lucas Leiva even at this moment in time.
Lucas has excelled against us (twice), Arsenal and Chelsea, all in the space of 12 months and at the age of 22 that's an impressive feat.
Like I've been saying for a while, compare him to Fletcher.
They both excelled at a very young age and were getting plenty of plaudits for a number of commanding performances, partly do their natural ability and partly down to their presence and leadership.
Then when they made the step up they went through a period of their careers when they struggled to make the step up against the majority of teams they played against and drew a lot of criticism from their own fans as much as anyone. Then at around the age of 21 they both started gaining plaudits for great performances in the big games.
Darren Fletcher built on that, and although fans continued to get on his back while he was building on it, he finally came out of his shell two years later, at the age of 23, and started putting in commanding performances against all teams. Lucas is only at this stage now.
Obviously all players progress differently, but he might well go on to be their Darren Fletcher and a lot of people will look very silly for calling him a poor player, or even worse to say 'he's not better than Greening', in a couple of years.
Like I've been saying for a while, compare him to Fletcher.
They both excelled at a very young age and were getting plenty of plaudits for a number of commanding performances, partly do their natural ability and partly down to their presence and leadership.
Then when they made the step up they went through a period of their careers when they struggled to make the step up against the majority of teams they played against and drew a lot of criticism from their own fans as much as anyone. Then at around the age of 21 they both started gaining plaudits for great performances in the big games.
Darren Fletcher built on that, and although fans continued to get on his back while he was building on it, he finally came out of his shell two years later, at the age of 23, and started putting in commanding performances against all teams. Lucas is only at this stage now.
Obviously all players progress differently, but he might well go on to be their Darren Fletcher and a lot of people will look very silly for calling him a poor player, or even worse to say 'he's not better than Greening', in a couple of years.
You're a real weirdo. That highlighted part was exactly what I responded to. feck knows, I might just stick to the topic yet again and you might again fail to see it. feck knows.
And yes there is a difference between inconsistently good and consistently bad. It's simple English. Read it a few times, it will come to you.
Lucas and Anderson are both inconsistently good.
It's just that you've seen a lot less of Lucas that you'd say he's consistently bad, despite evidence to the contrary.
You'd probably say the same about Anderson if you were a Liverpool fan, 'cause you'd have seen a lot less of him.
It's just that you've seen a lot less of Lucas that you'd say he's consistently bad, despite evidence to the contrary.
You'd probably say the same about Anderson if you were a Liverpool fan, 'cause you'd have seen a lot less of him.
They say it about their own player
Anyhoo I'm tired of this thread. My biggest issue with this place these-a-days is the unpleasantness of the posters. I believe everyones entitled to their opinion, but a large chunk of people here respond to anything which doesn't agree with theirs, in an extremely bitter way almost aimed at mocking the other persons view. Sad.
People who talk rubbish deserve to be mocked.
There's been a lot of rubbish being said recently so there's been a lot of what you perceive to be mocking or bitterness.
Less rubbish being said = less "bitterness" and "mocking".
Cut it out at the source.
There's been a lot of rubbish being said recently so there's been a lot of what you perceive to be mocking or bitterness.
Less rubbish being said = less "bitterness" and "mocking".
Cut it out at the source.
Wrong.
There's a lot of opinions flying about that get bizarre and aggressive responses. It's as if there aren't any happy people on here.
Lucas may go on to be a decent player..not denying this, but to compare his performances to date with Anderson is not on.
I regularly watch Liverpool games as one of my best mates is a dipper.. never has he even dared to suggest Lucas>Anderson.
Can lucas be the new Fletcher maybe he can, but on performances to date.. Anderson is the far better player and has put in better performances to date. He can be inconsistent but bar Burnley this year where he was put alongside Giggs-Carrick(poorly balanced midfield) he hasn't let us down.. whereas Lucas has made several errors and given away free-kicks etc in dangerous positions.
Stop jumping on the bandwagon of Lucas = new Zidane.
I think you're talking about it from a more personal point of view than a general one, which isn't what you were talking about in the first place.
Don't cry about it like, you've had a few disagreements with Pogue.
This is exactly why your argument's so rubbish.
You've got some sort of attachment to Anderson that you exaggerate every single point that you see as any form of criticism towards him. Was like that in the newbies as well.
It's understandable, he's the type of player that excites fans and a lot of fans do get attached to Anderson because of his playing style and personality. Makes it pretty difficult for objective discussion about him, though.
No, I said he might become the new Darren Fletcher. Said that last year as well in this very thread. So that'd mean there's no bandwagon jumping here, and no comparison to Zidane. I really, really can't see how that last line adds anything to your argument, and to be honest it takes away from it if anything.
Did I compare Anderson and Lucas? Did I say Lucas was a good as him?
Nah, I said they're both inconsistent, but good. Do you disagree? I think there'd be a very similar amount of good games they've had over the last 3 years.
That was odd conclusion you jumped to. No need to decipher what I'm saying. I'm saying exactly what I mean. Tolerance levels on the cafe are extremely low and everyone seems to be a tad sad with spurts of anger. It can be amusing in patches but usually seems to make this place rather robotic and depressing in nature.
Good post
Ive often even ended up defending Lucas to pool fans which was a rather wierd experience! Hes not Alonso and will never be that type of player. Cant be easy for him in that formation with Mascherano as a partner. Sunday was nowhere near his best match for them either. His natural position for me is futher up the pitch (I think he got 2 or 3 MOTM awards towards the end of last season) in that role. Yet another example of band wagon jumping for me.
Aye, he's scored 4 times for Liverpool now - including goals against Chelsea and Atletico Madrid - and racked up his fair share of assists.
This won't stop the resident 'tards from wailing that he doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as our own Brazilian goal-scoring machine.
If excelled you mean excessively gives pastural free kicks away and doesnt get yellow cards then he excels indeed.
I wasn't aiming my Lucas> Zidane jibe at you particularly.. but yes the Fletcher comparison is a good one, he could be that type of player for Liverpool.. he could, there's no denying it.
However I'm not biased towards Anderson, but his good performances have been above anything Lucas has acheived in a Liverpool shirt. Lucas' performance against us was exaggerated due to our poor midfield selection, our lack of pressing, lack of any energy/mobility in that midfield is what made him look so good etc
He has had a number of poor performances, can he turn it round.. yes he can, but he has been poor generally..otherwise he wouldn't be getting stick from liverpool fans, I've watched Liverpool regularly for a long time and the stick he gets has been well-deserved.
I think he is actually quite good in the holding role against teams where we don't have to defend much. He doesn't waste possession and keeps play flowing smoothly and is just about good enough defensively to handle the holding role against teams that aren't all that.
His natural game is as more of a box-to-box midfielder, but his game is not quite developed enough for him to be truly effective in such a role yet, imo. He looks to be getting there though.
He has held his own in games against chelsea, arsneal, your lot, Inter, Real Madrid. I don't have any reservations about saying he has delivered more in big games for us than Anderson has done for your lot.
Anderson does look more talented to me and ought to become a better player. I think he is also better for you against poor teams than Lucas is for us against those.
I support Arsenal. Referee's have had the biggest impact for liverpool in our latest games. Looking forward to mid week when no doubt Lucas will show a dominating display.
Be careful what you wish for. So far Arsenal's soft under-belly in central midfield has been shown up in all your toughest fixtures this season.
No it hasn't. Our defence with a lacking concentration has been shown up. Our midfield has been fantastic... and it will most likely be an u19's team with silvestre, senderos and maybe almunia anyway.
There are far too many people on here following the route of Ferguson. When United lose it's because the ref was poor or didn't do his job properly. Or sometimes you may think it is more acceptable to say you lost because your own players were shite on the day. You can't just say the opposing team were better on the day, they were only good because you were shite. Is there perhaps any chance on your earth that your players were shite because the opposition were good?
There are of course obvious exceptions in this thread (Pogue and Brwned to name 2) but in general it seems very hard for a lot of you to pay compliment to any player who does not wear a United shirt.
There are of course obvious exceptions in this thread (Pogue and Brwned to name 2) but in general it seems very hard for a lot of you to pay compliment to any player who does not wear a United shirt.
That's just complete and utter nonsense. There's plenty of threads and posts which praise our opposition. I've noticed a couple on Torres for instance. There's nothing wrong with not rating Lucas. It's nothing to do with bias or the weekend's result. Plenty of your own fans think he's a shite-bag too, and sing from the same hymn sheet as some posters here. Personally I think he's far more harshly rated by your own fans than us. Last season he was scape-goated for anything going wrong, booed and taunted, when Mascherano was very often the worse performer from what I saw.
Not really. I have no problem saying Liverpool as a whole and individually were much better than us on Sunday. I however do have problems with saying Lucas has been anything but ordinary before this for Liverpool. I've never said he can't become a good player, just that he's been anything but so far. He's been more awful than anything close to good.
I have never had any problems praising the rest of your squad because many of them have been worthy of praise in recent times. Lucas has hardly ever deserved any praise, hence he hasn't gotten it. Heck he doesn't even get it from your fans.
It probably won't happen when Carrick, Fletcher, Giggs, Hargreaves and Scholes are routinely picking up their share of knocks, injuries, suspensions and what not, but does anyone feel a loan spell to a Premiership club would do Anderson a world of good?
Perhaps to a club battling for survival and/or injuries (Hull, Everton) that could test the bottle and mental state of this young prodigy. Or a club needing that extra spark in a push for Europe, per say Sunderland or Villa. Imagine seeing young Anderson working behind Bent and Jones at S'land or teaming up with Young and Milner at Villa. The main agenda is getting Anderson routine starts and as many 80-90 minute matches as possible.
Perhaps to a club battling for survival and/or injuries (Hull, Everton) that could test the bottle and mental state of this young prodigy. Or a club needing that extra spark in a push for Europe, per say Sunderland or Villa. Imagine seeing young Anderson working behind Bent and Jones at S'land or teaming up with Young and Milner at Villa. The main agenda is getting Anderson routine starts and as many 80-90 minute matches as possible.
Loaning out Anderson would be a very, very bizarre thing to do.
I think it would be fecking stupid, an absolute crap idea, one of the worst I have ever heard on here; no offense
Yeh, you're a fecking idiot. What sort of brain conjurs that sort of idea? Honest to fecking God, some of the shite I've seen on here recently. For feck's sake.
No offence.
No offence.
Yeah, especially based on Scholes and Carricks performances Sunday, Anderson should have started for United
As a point of curiosity, Dunga has called up a squad made up of Europe-based players only, in order not to disrupt Brazilian clubs in the run-in to their championship.
Lucas gets yet another callup. No place for Anderson though.
Brazil call up Liverpool's Fábio Aurélio and Lucas for Middle East friendlies | Football | guardian.co.uk
Lucas gets yet another callup. No place for Anderson though.
Brazil call up Liverpool's Fábio Aurélio and Lucas for Middle East friendlies | Football | guardian.co.uk
Not a surprise as Lucas has always done better than Anderson when they played for Brazil.Dunga trusts him more
Are you for real? Anderson is crucial if we want to win anything this year.. let alone loan him to a club lower down the table.
All of our midfielders have a big role to play.
He's actually one of our best right now. With Scholes' really struggling so far this season Carrick looking woeful, Anderson should be right up the pecking order headed by Fletcher.
Scholes hasn't been that bad to be fair, but he just doesn't have the legs to play in really high tempo games away from home. Carrick is not a big match player for me, but on Sunday I actually thought he demonstrated more character than he usually does and thought with a more energetic partner we would have won.
Fletch is first-choice..no-one can argue with that, I honestly think Anderson should start alongside him for the majority of our games..and if up against a really tough team, make it into a three man mid with possibly Carrick or Hargreaves when fit.
This is madness.
How did Anderson suddenly become one of the first names on the team-sheet?
I mean, apart from the obvious fact that there's a reason he wasn't picked against Liverpool, have people such short memories that suddenly Anderson is a more complete central midfielder than Michael Carrick? fecking hell.
Carrick deserved to be dropped earlier in the season but looks to be finally hitting form (as predicted by SAF who says he always peaks around now) has been of our most consistently effective midfielders for three years now and played well against Liverpool, just two days ago. Despite all of this, you 'tards want him relegated to the bench?
How did Anderson suddenly become one of the first names on the team-sheet?
I mean, apart from the obvious fact that there's a reason he wasn't picked against Liverpool, have people such short memories that suddenly Anderson is a more complete central midfielder than Michael Carrick? fecking hell.
Carrick deserved to be dropped earlier in the season but looks to be finally hitting form (as predicted by SAF who says he always peaks around now) has been of our most consistently effective midfielders for three years now and played well against Liverpool, just two days ago. Despite all of this, you 'tards want him relegated to the bench?
@Anderson being crucial, how did he get that status all of a sudden ?Crucial midfielders are Carrick,Fletcher,hopefully Hargreaves and even Giggs when he plays there