Yes, I know how amortisation works, but it doesn't impact cash flow, which is where United will have problems this summer.
Amorim's Rebuild
- Thread starter RDCR07
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Yes, I know how amortisation works, but it doesn't impact cash flow, which is where United will have problems this summer.
That’s how the sale of academy products works, so yes we will spend. Don’t get caught up in this narrative that we’re incapable of spending. Go to any other club’s finances and they do exact same thing, but no one goes thru their books with a fine toothed comb, as it doesn’t generate the interest like our club’s misery.
We definitely can't end with -100m this summer. That would mean serious minus points already.
No, you're thinking of the accounting treatment of transfers for PSR purposes. That isn't relevant to our cash flow situation.
There’s no way our net spend is going to be close to zero, the transfer debt is always going to be there, ours needs to be reduced and it will be gradually I’m sure. Clearly there are going to have to be outgoings and savings in wages but there will be a significant amount spent over the summer.
Not gonna be easy. Casemiro, Onana, Mount, Höjlund will all be here next season. It is not easy to sell high wage underperformers.
This club is cursed. How is it Moyes can instantly improve Everton? Potter seems to be getting WHU back on track. We are being outperformed by Newcastle, Brighton, Bournemouth, Fulham, Forest & Palace.
34 points behind the league leaders - it's a monumental failure from top to bottom without the slightest sign of progress.
34 points behind the league leaders - it's a monumental failure from top to bottom without the slightest sign of progress.
£154m of it will have to be paid down this year. That's £154m leaving the club this year in transfer payments, even if we sign no players at all this summer.
Expectations
But it's almost the same, no club is paying for players on a cash basis so even if we spend 150m we won't be paying up cash for it, we will need maybe 50m or 75m at most to execute those deals. I think Garnacho is a goner, he is the one who will easily bring in the most cash and profit for PSR calculations.
We will need to spend about 150m in the summer just to get in a striker and few other key positions. We can't sell Hoijlund after this season unless if we are doing it at 10m or thereabouts which will kill us wrt PSR so we will loan him out and hope he will do well enough in a less pressured environment to attract a buyer.
I think we will look to pay off Casemiro but that will feck up our PSR situation too as his amortisation is over 15m per year or at the very least loan him out. It's hard to see us doing what we need to do without zeroing in on the Garnacho and Mainoo sales as I can't see anyone paying a decent fee for Rashford given his wage expectations. If we don't spend next summer, we risk being in a perpetual slump that could see us relegated in the next couple of years. Our kids are too young to rescue us.
A striker, a no.10 like Cunha and a more suited CCB (quicker, physically stronger and very good on the ball) are non negotiable before we get to the Onana and Dalot upgrades. Those three, if we go for top class, will cost us around £150m - £180m. Hopefully the likes of Kone and others will be more ready to contribute as the season (next) progresses.
But then that logic should also apply to players we sell, meaning we likely won't get the full cash inflow right away and thus won't have it all on hand to spend.
City was playing like 5 CBs when they won the treble. They started the CL final with Akanji, Dias, Stones and Ake on the pitch
Other than Liverpool, Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern, pretty much every other top side plays with 3 at the back in possession. Whether they switch to 4 or 5 out of possession is the main tactical difference(City plays 442 out of possession, for example, while Leverkusen or Inter play 532)
And the idea that Amorim's system is some enigma requiring specific players to work is insane. The players currently at the club should be capable of playing it. If they're not, either the manager is failing at his job - which he 100% is right now, to be clear - or these players don't belong in top flight football
Mostly, United need great wingbacks, a better midfielder than Mainoo(could be Mainoo himself if he gets massively better very quickly, but most likely he won't be ready for another season or two) and a goalscorer. I'd honestly look to upgrade on Amad/Bruno as well if possible, but that's a less pressing issue
And then depth. Depth is the other big issue
By the same logic we'll still be paying past purchase's installment
Yeah but a net spend is not all up front and our finances are going to have to be improved over time. A zero net spend doesn’t save much and there is probably another 150m due the season after so it’s a problem that will be dealt with gradually. The less spent this summer just means more next summer.
We need to get back in Europe, back up the table, we have a small squad and need a lot of new players. The reason we are seeing all these cuts is to continue spending money, a net spend of zero likely ends up costing you more money.
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It's crazy how people push the narrative that selling an academy prospect automatically means you can spend x3 the money, when United are already a billion in debt and had basically no cash in the bank until Sir Jim injected funds.
PSR has become a target where fans simply seem to believe you should always maximize your capacity to spend within the rules when in reality, making those average £35m allowable losses every year by the PL's calculations likely means probable P&L losses after tax of ~£80m every season, is if that is a sustainable business model...
1. osimhen, offer hojlund + 25M
2. consider heaven or huijsen (25M) or inacio (35M)
3. suzuki (18M)
4. cunha (40M if wolves get relegated/60M)
5. 2 year contract for kimmich
6. play Amad instead
7. ederson (45M)
pretty sure signing 7 players will be very unlikely next season but these players need going:
1. maguire - contract expiry
2. eriksen - contract expiry
3. lindeflop - contract expiry
4. rashford - 40M
5. Sancho - 25M
6. Mount - 20M
7. Shaw - 5M or whatever
8. Onana/Bayindir
9. Casemiro - 15M
10. Evans - contract expiry
Suzuki
Maz/Yoro--MDL--Martinez
Amad--Ugarte/Kimmich--Ederson--Dorgu
Bruno--Cunha
Osimhen
Everton or WHU are the teams that they are, with the players that they usually have / had. At United, it is different, the drop in quality, attitude and approach is so different to the past, hence things dont work out at all for any new manager
Last summer we bought 2 CBs. For a combined 100M. Apart from that we already have Martinez, Maguire. We also have options like Maz, and Shaw who can play there.
Going for another expensive CB means we fecked up somewhere.
Going for another expensive CB means we fecked up somewhere.
Sorry, I may not be a great student of tactics but I think you are completely wrong. Playing 5 notional CBs (when you list 4) is different to formation. Stones regularly plays in midfield. Pep rarely uses 3 CBs in a classic 3 at the back, his set up is much more fluid than Amorim's with one CB effectively playing as a DM. You are also wrong to somehow claim Liverpool, Barca etc play '3 at the back in possession'. Players pushing forward to overload midfield and wings is completely different to 3 at the back. Leverkusen are a rarity that does play more 3 at the back (which can become a 5). So if Amorim's system is some enigma, why is the manager himself saying it will take a long time and require lots of time on the training field? Why are teams finding it so easy to score agaist us even when we field 5 defenders and 2 DM?s. So we are back to blaming players again, as we did with Ole, Rangnick, ETH and now Amorim. Even though its now a different squad?
Go and read a bit more on tactics and then come back with a sensible post.
We have MDL, 'Arry, Maz, youngsters Yoro and Heaven.
Don't wanna count Licha and Shaw because they are broken permanently but they are present.
CB in the summer will be madness when we're crying for strikers and fullbacks..
Don't wanna count Licha and Shaw because they are broken permanently but they are present.
CB in the summer will be madness when we're crying for strikers and fullbacks..
That's 4 senior players plus Heaven who hasn't played a minute for us for 3 positions to cover 2 games a week. Not getting a CB would be madness.
Not when you consider that Martinez is a question mark, Maguire should leave as will Lindelof
We need at least 2 midfielders to replace Casemiro and Eriksen. Quenda is hopefully our new WB so on top we need a striker, an AMF and potentially another attacking player.
City play 325 in possession. Have played that since Guardiola showed up. Bayern played 325 too with Guardiola. It's his standard, go-to formation.
yes, Stones pushes up into midfield to form a double pivot, while the other 3 CBs form a back 3.
i specifically said Liverpool and Barcelona *don't* do this, and they are notable for it. Mind you, Barcelona *do* play a CB at RWB though, and can often be seen in a back 3 when they're not attacking down the right wing
That's not what I'm talking about though. I'm talking about the structure they set up in
Because what he's talking about goes much deeper than "playing 3421". Also, he's failing at his job.
Because you are poorly coached(and also injuries. Your midfield options still suck)
Need to box clever this summer window.
For what it’s worth, I think half the people on here could do a decent job at rebuilding the squad.
Been thinking about this for a while, I think we should splurge on the attack but go for free transfers elsewhere or bargains.
GK: not sure who, but needs to be done.
Left CB: Tah or Boscagli? free
RWB: Lamptey and/or Traore - free
CM: Anguissa and Angel Gomes - free. Ideally Ederson, but may not have the funds
10: Cunha
CF: Gyokeres or Osimhen. Maybe David on a free too.
Keeper = 30mish
Ederson = 50m
Cunha = 60m
Gyokeres/Osimhen = 60m
200m total
Sell Sancho (25m), Antony (25m), Rashford (40m), Malacia (5m), Onana (20m), Zirkzee or Hojlund (30m)
= approx 145m
Could also consider selling Dalot.
55m net spend, plus reduced wage bill most likely.
Sorry if this post is similar to others. Transfer dreaming is one of the few things we can be positive about lately.
For what it’s worth, I think half the people on here could do a decent job at rebuilding the squad.
Been thinking about this for a while, I think we should splurge on the attack but go for free transfers elsewhere or bargains.
GK: not sure who, but needs to be done.
Left CB: Tah or Boscagli? free
RWB: Lamptey and/or Traore - free
CM: Anguissa and Angel Gomes - free. Ideally Ederson, but may not have the funds
10: Cunha
CF: Gyokeres or Osimhen. Maybe David on a free too.
Keeper = 30mish
Ederson = 50m
Cunha = 60m
Gyokeres/Osimhen = 60m
200m total
Sell Sancho (25m), Antony (25m), Rashford (40m), Malacia (5m), Onana (20m), Zirkzee or Hojlund (30m)
= approx 145m
Could also consider selling Dalot.
55m net spend, plus reduced wage bill most likely.
Sorry if this post is similar to others. Transfer dreaming is one of the few things we can be positive about lately.
Last summer we had a manager that played with two centre backs. This summer we have a manager that plays with three.
In terms of pure numbers then Yoro, De Ligt, Martinez, Maguire,Mazraoui and Shaw looks ok, but considering the injury record of them we are likely to have lots of periods of time where only three of the six will actually be available.
Fingers crossed then
Maguire just signed a plus 1
Getting Osimhen for 25 million plus Hojlund is a pipedream. Napoli would have to be outside of their minds to take that deal.
They just got something like 80 million for Kvicha, they're not taking 25 million plus a throwaway player for an arguably bigger asset than Kvicha.
Osimhen is one of the only world class strikers in the world now and probably the only one that'll actually be available, and he's entering the prime of his career. He could easily go for 100 million this summer.
Martinez is going to have recurring knee injuries now. It would be madness to base him in any long term planning. If we get 20 games a season out of him moving forward, we'd be doing well. Plan for him as we do Shaw and Mount.
The more I see, the more convinced I become central midfielder should be top priority. And then a right wing back. This team can't keep possession and progress the ball. There's a giant void next to Ugarte and Dalot is ineffective. You could stick prime Cristiano Ronaldo up top and he will struggle to score. Not saying United don't need a striker, but it will solve nothing, unless those positions are filled as well.
Ideally yes. But we also need to address CF, CM, #10 and WB roles too. Maybe even GK. CB falls way down the pecking order. Maybe sign an older LCB on cheap/free.
I don't see how people can't watch us and agree with this. There are issues, broadly speaking, in basically every position but the central foundations of the team is sub par. Ugarte needs a partner as the highest priority, someone athletic/fast but with more of a passing repertoire. I'd even like to see another signing there given how light we are.
I think Fernandes at Soton is really good, cheeky bid for him given they are going down + he knows Amorim. RWB go for Tella at Leverkusen who can also play the 10 and get David on a free for CF.
Of course. In fact, I'd bet dollars to donuts we're going to. We'll be way under PSR restrictions if we aren't spending near that amount.
This "£414M transfer debt outstanding" number that's being bandied about is such a nothing-burger of a story. United is going to average £100M - 150M in net transfer spend in a typical year, as is normal for a club of our stature. Those transfer payments are nearly always structured over 3-5 years; by all clubs, not just us. Well guess what? If you spend £100M+ a summer and pay it over 4-5 years you are ALWAYS going to have £300M - £400M of outstanding debt. Indefinitely. Forever.
It's only a story because we're the most covered PL club and most people are so clueless about finances and PSR, so any shiny big number sounds scary. I doubt the club even consider it a problem or have any plan to reduce it long-term.
And the rest of the "debt" is just owed to the Glazers. You know, the owners? It's not as though it's owed to a bank. The Glazers can continue to collect interest payments on it if they like (they probably will), but it's not as though there's bankruptcy risk. The debtor is the same party as the debtee.
Look, the club has been really poorly run and has a lot of issues. But the idea we cannot spend any money moving forward is a negotiating tactic, nothing more. If you look at our 10k financial report the club has averaged ~£90M in operating cash flow the last two years. That means before factoring in transfer payments, we make about £90M a year in profits. So we can at least spend that much every summer and the club would still be breakeven. That's without any injection of cash from owners, mostly without any UCL, and without finishing well in the PL.
Dorgu excels in the left-back role, while Quenda—our reported target for the right wing-back position—offers versatility, comfortably being able to play as a left and right winger. Their versatility means that transitioning to a system incorporating a traditional left-back and winger wouldn't cause too much of an inconvenience if we were to go back to a more traditional system.
Amorim’s comments on Antony not being physically up to the Premier League seem completely fair. I read a couple of months back he values physicality very highly and it’s clear as day, and has been for some time, we’re majorly lacking in this area compared to many other teams in the league.
Therefore, though I hope it is club driven business on players who would be useful for any manager should Amorim not make it here, I expect every player who comes in over the next year or so to help us in this area.
I’m not expecting tons of business this summer due to the financial position but early permanent deals out for Rashford, Antony, Sancho and Malacia will certainly help if their loans go to plan.
Therefore, though I hope it is club driven business on players who would be useful for any manager should Amorim not make it here, I expect every player who comes in over the next year or so to help us in this area.
I’m not expecting tons of business this summer due to the financial position but early permanent deals out for Rashford, Antony, Sancho and Malacia will certainly help if their loans go to plan.
I would be hopeful, if you're right, that this athleticism on the flanks would seriously help provide cover in central midfield, where it feels like no combination of players could ever cover enough ground due to the acres of space other sides have to play through every week. It cannot simply be about better central midfielders, I've only really just started to realise. Although that would help!
In a way your both right, our biggest issue right now is actual cashflow;
1. More importantly is the historical transfer debt that must be paid off first added to legacy debt interest charges, last year that was £60m before we turned the lights on and Berrada is 100% right when he says a club like Man United can’t continue to lose money like it has over the last 5 years which are £370m and last year alone £113m.
2. Before SJR investment of $300(£238m) the club had less than £15m in the bank and couldn’t facilitate any loan deals in winter of 23/24 season. Current accounts suggest that there may be over £100m in the the clubs banking facility however they do have payments to make for legacy transfers and other outgoings .
3. By selling academy products for 100% profit they will help with PSR by showing as 100% net profit, however unless we can bring in some serious transfer money then the club will struggle especially without European Football.
4. INEOS proposed solutions are to reduce the employee personal by as much as 30-35% and more significantly reduce the players wages from the ridiculous £300m to a more affordable £230-240m. It’s clear what they are trying to do but to drive success on the field the club needs a major rebuild this summer.
5. They need to Sell as many players as possible first and I’m sure that they probably think ; Sancho(£25m), Rashford (£40m), Garnaucho(£55m) and then hopefully move on Casemiro(£10m), Malacia(£5m) and Antony(£25m) are the likeliest options with
At least one of ; M Mount, Hojlund or Zirkzee going as well for another £20-40m.
They also know that Lindelof, Eriksen, Heaton, Evans are all leaving on a free and that will reduce the wages by £400k per week!
If they sell 4 of the 6 players listed and generate £125m, they will want all that money in one instalment so they have the cash coming in to help them with a £180-250m transfer spree in the summer because even if you get two or three good free transfers like Angel Gomes and Johnathon David you still need a Goalkeeper, a left footed CB, A BTB midfielder like Ederson, a wing back and at least one number 10/SS and an elite number 9.
The club would need £150m cash in the bank just for new transfers, even if they pay in instalments to bankroll that sort of summer window and that’s with European football.
I hate to say it by I see Amorim being let down massively, he might only get 2 players he wants and then he struggles and he’s fired by Oct 2025?
We may have to buy a Lisandro replacement. That may sound harsh, but he is injury prone and his back up is Shaw, who is almost irrelevant now.
There are options like Boscagli at PSV and Jhon Lucumi at Bologna.
There are options like Boscagli at PSV and Jhon Lucumi at Bologna.
Huijsen, Ederson, Quenda, Osimhen
GK: Onana/Bayindir
RCB: de Ligt/Yoro
CCB: Huijsen/Maguire
LCB: Licha/Shaw/Heaven
Deep playmaker: Bruno/Mainoo
Box to box or ball winner: Ederson/Ugarte
Inverted wingback: Mazraoui/Dalot
Attacking wingback: Dorgu/Quenda
Wide forward: Amad/Garnacho
Inverted forward: Zirkzee/Mount
Striker: Osimhen/Obi
GK: Onana/Bayindir
RCB: de Ligt/Yoro
CCB: Huijsen/Maguire
LCB: Licha/Shaw/Heaven
Deep playmaker: Bruno/Mainoo
Box to box or ball winner: Ederson/Ugarte
Inverted wingback: Mazraoui/Dalot
Attacking wingback: Dorgu/Quenda
Wide forward: Amad/Garnacho
Inverted forward: Zirkzee/Mount
Striker: Osimhen/Obi