Amorim's Rebuild

[JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo]

Not gonna be easy. Casemiro, Onana, Mount, Höjlund will all be here next season. It is not easy to sell high wage underperformers.

Hojlund is on 85k a week

 

[Woziak]

More importantly why would players come to Man United, no European football and a coach that is constantly throwing them under the bus!

I attach a caught offside list of tweets after the Game and although I don’t agree with all of them, the one about No MEDIA training, I most definitely do. Someone just needs to tell him to stop talking about the players so directly, he’s destroying their confidence!

https://www.caughtoffside.com/2025/03/03/man-united-ruben-amorim-fulham-fa-cup/

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

Hojlund is on 85k a week

He is still not gonna be sold for 50m in the summer.

 

[Insanity]

I don't think any kind of "rebuild" is possible without selling Rashford, Antony, Malacia, Casemiro, Zirkzee etc. I am fearful that knowing our situation clubs will try to low ball us for even players that are put on loan. I doubt Villa will trigger the Rashford option and Spanish teams will try to get Antony on loan again. We might be able to sell Malacia back to the Netherlands for Euro 5m or similar. We are really in a catch-22 situation. A big big summer coming up for Berrada and team.

 

[aeh1991]

More importantly why would players come to Man United, no European football and a coach that is constantly throwing them under the bus!

I attach a caught offside list of tweets after the Game and although I don’t agree with all of them, the one about No MEDIA training, I most definitely do. Someone just needs to tell him to stop talking about the players so directly, he’s destroying their confidence!

https://www.caughtoffside.com/2025/03/03/man-united-ruben-amorim-fulham-fa-cup/

Is he really throwing them under the bus? You are probably refering to the "This is the worst United team" quote, which he apologized for. If anything I thought he's praising his players a lot in front of the media. I think the players know better than us.

 

[Woziak]

I don't think any kind of "rebuild" is possible without selling Rashford, Antony, Malacia, Casemiro, Zirkzee etc. I am fearful that knowing our situation clubs will try to low ball us for even players that are put on loan. I doubt Villa will trigger the Rashford option and Spanish teams will try to get Antony on loan again. We might be able to sell Malacia back to the Netherlands for Euro 5m or similar. We are really in a catch-22 situation. A big big summer coming up for Berrada and team.

Omar Berrada started off as a marketing and sponsorship manager at Barcelona, then he became Commercial Director at City before moving to Chief Operating officer then Head of Football Operations, his CV looks pretty bloated but in all those jobs he was answering to the CEO, now he is the CEO And he’s answerable only to Owners, SJR and the Glazers. Dan Ashworth said RA would be a mistake as the squad didn’t suit his style.

It’s clear that Berrada, Wilcox and Brailsford alienated Ashworth and ignored the one guy who had experience in the role he was employed for. Surely when they, Wilcox and Berrada sat down with RA they discussed the current squad and the season. The club had 27 PL matches and was in 3 other cup competitions.

Someone must have said to the coach that we expect a top 7/8 finish and a good run in the cups. I mean the previous manager did just that top 8 in both seasons and two trophies. We know this is true because Berrada has recently told the media the club has budgeted to appear only in the Europa League not the CL.

Let’s assume the inevitable right now, he finishes with his 1 point per game and finishes 15th-16th and is out of all the cup competitions before April 1st, why on earth would SJR/Ineos back him for a rebuild, nothing so far in 25 games has suggested that he’s going to rebuild this team to the levels required. He calls out players, makes rookie 101 mistakes and now gets in spats with players like Rooney.

He wants these players to play for him when he keeps calling them Sh..
I’m sorry there will be no Amorim Rebuild, I doubt very much he’ll see the season out and I can’t see the board backing him to the value of £200-250m with no European football next season.

 

[Woziak]

Is he really throwing them under the bus? You are probably refering to the "This is the worst United team" quote, which he apologized for. If anything I thought he's praising his players a lot in front of the media. I think the players know better than us.

You need to study his words, he has an excellent use of the English language, he knows exactly what he’s saying and what he means!

Why would you have conversations with players privately now, telling them they have no future at United then expect them to bust a gut for you because you need them due to injuries. He is a tactful as President Trump is in a NATO meeting!

 

[NoLogo]

If we are a serious club this thread surely needs to be labeled as "Vivell's rebuild"?

 

[Woziak]

If we are a serious club this thread surely needs to be labeled as "Vivell's rebuild"?

Interestingly there’s an article from a Liverpool fan based site, so take it with a pinch of salt that Liverpool estimated that it would cost £400m to implement Rubin Amorim’s system and this is why they turned him down, if that’s the case it might take £750m to make United an Amorim team over 3/4 years and 6 windows. So yep we should rename the thread to Vivell’s rebuild?

https://www.rousingthekop.com/2025/...-man-united-boss-ruben-amorim-had-been-hired/

 

[MaMa given red]

Interestingly there’s an article from a Liverpool fan based site, so take it with a pinch of salt that Liverpool estimated that it would cost £400m to implement Rubin Amorim’s system and this is why they turned him down, if that’s the case it might take £750m to make United an Amorim team over 3/4 years and 6 windows. So yep we should rename the thread to Vivell’s rebuild?

https://www.rousingthekop.com/2025/...-man-united-boss-ruben-amorim-had-been-hired/

If it would take £400m to get this Liverpool squad suited to Amorim's system then we are going to need over a billion!

 

[Tallis]

Interestingly there’s an article from a Liverpool fan based site, so take it with a pinch of salt that Liverpool estimated that it would cost £400m to implement Rubin Amorim’s system and this is why they turned him down, if that’s the case it might take £750m to make United an Amorim team over 3/4 years and 6 windows. So yep we should rename the thread to Vivell’s rebuild?

https://www.rousingthekop.com/2025/...-man-united-boss-ruben-amorim-had-been-hired/

Sounds like BS to me. They should calculate how much it will cost to replace VVD and Salah when they leave in the summer.

 

[sleepehead]

We may have to buy a Lisandro replacement. That may sound harsh, but he is injury prone and his back up is Shaw, who is almost irrelevant now.

There are options like Boscagli at PSV and Jhon Lucumi at Bologna.

I think Yoro is the Lisandro replacement. I think next season its gonna be Yoro-Deligt-Maz as our starting CBs until Lisandro gets back. Then Yoro and De Ligt will rotate with different positions while Maguire backs up the CCB. Heaven and another young academy CB can be our last min need. I don't think we need to heavily focus on CBs this summer, there's no point especially if we don't have Europe next year. Focus on the improving in the PL and maybe go for a sneaky domestic cup run. What's more important will be our WBs and potentially getting a GK to compete with Onana

 

[Bright_Eyes]

Omar Berrada started off as a marketing and sponsorship manager at Barcelona, then he became Commercial Director at City before moving to Chief Operating officer then Head of Football Operations, his CV looks pretty bloated but in all those jobs he was answering to the CEO, now he is the CEO And he’s answerable only to Owners, SJR and the Glazers. Dan Ashworth said RA would be a mistake as the squad didn’t suit his style.

It’s clear that Berrada, Wilcox and Brailsford alienated Ashworth and ignored the one guy who had experience in the role he was employed for. Surely when they, Wilcox and Berrada sat down with RA they discussed the current squad and the season. The club had 27 PL matches and was in 3 other cup competitions.

Someone must have said to the coach that we expect a top 7/8 finish and a good run in the cups. I mean the previous manager did just that top 8 in both seasons and two trophies. We know this is true because Berrada has recently told the media the club has budgeted to appear only in the Europa League not the CL.

Let’s assume the inevitable right now, he finishes with his 1 point per game and finishes 15th-16th and is out of all the cup competitions before April 1st, why on earth would SJR/Ineos back him for a rebuild, nothing so far in 25 games has suggested that he’s going to rebuild this team to the levels required. He calls out players, makes rookie 101 mistakes and now gets in spats with players like Rooney.

He wants these players to play for him when he keeps calling them Sh..
I’m sorry there will be no Amorim Rebuild, I doubt very much he’ll see the season out and I can’t see the board backing him to the value of £200-250m with no European football next season.

It's weird that the exact reason we all clamoured to have a proper DOF for so long was so we could get some continuity between managers and have a long term vision etc, but as soon as we get a good one they're overridden and consequently sacked, and not many people seemed worried because Amorim was a popular hire. But are we even looking to hire a new DOF or are we going back to the old days of the CEO making those decisions and not wanting to delegate? If Amorim's job security is thin right now then surely Berrada should be starting to worry about his job too. If you decide to overrule the person who's job it's meant to be to identify a new manager and that manager doesn't work out, it's strike one at the least.

 

[gulli_G]

If it would take £400m to get this Liverpool squad suited to Amorim's system then we are going to need over a billion!

What a load of tosh of an article. Just look at Rubens spend during Sporting where he started from scratch and had to sell to buy.

The current Liverpool squad would have been 90a% there already. He probably would have needed a CB and wingback backup.

 

[FlawlessVictory88]

It's weird that the exact reason we all clamoured to have a proper DOF for so long was so we could get some continuity between managers and have a long term vision etc, but as soon as we get a good one they're overridden and consequently sacked, and not many people seemed worried because Amorim was a popular hire. But are we even looking to hire a new DOF or are we going back to the old days of the CEO making those decisions and not wanting to delegate? If Amorim's job security is thin right now then surely Berrada should be starting to worry about his job too. If you decide to overrule the person who's job it's meant to be to identify a new manager and that manager doesn't work out, it's strike one at the least.

Berrada does not have the authority to fire Ashworth and would never have done so in a million years without being asked by Ratcliffe.

There are multiple reports that Ratcliffe was angry with Ashworth's inability to set up a data department at the club along with him apparently trying to outsource decision making data on who the new manager should be. Ratcliffe felt these were the responsibility of Ashworth so if he's just going to outsource it to others then why have him earning millions.

It's possible that the director of football role will be filled by someone in the near future, hopefully Campos but to act as if Berrada is running around usurping people is just nonsense.

 

[SamoyedSam]

I think Campos will sign a new deal at PSG. The interest from English clubs and Saudi is a great negotiating tool for him.

 

[Xeque_279]

Funny reading all those saying he's going to get sacked. He's not going anywhere, there's no point in changing him and the club can't even afford to do so. Many will leave this season, and many new faces will be coming in too. Won't be the perfect squad, that will take time, but it will be better, I'm sure of it.

I mean just having a proper striker will take this team up levels, so I'm not sure what everyone is crying about.

 

[Bon1803]

Funny reading all those saying he's going to get sacked. He's not going anywhere, there's no point in changing him and the club can't even afford to do so. Many will leave this season, and many new faces will be coming in too. Won't be the perfect squad, that will take time, but it will be better, I'm sure of it.

I mean just having a proper striker will take this team up levels, so I'm not sure what everyone is crying about.

Agree with your thought process but not sure how many players will leave.

I think it’s fair to say most know who should leave but some are on monster salaries and won’t be attractive to other clubs.

A good all round striker will transform the team pretty quickly and from what I have seen I think Liam Delap ticks the boxes but there will be competition and we won’t be swimming in money.

Other than striker we need some players who are able to go past players to open games up. We currently Only have Amad and Garnacho, we comfortabley need at least 4 more to provide balance, cover and competition. A couple of them being physical athletes too would not hurt either.

I think the defence will be fine and see Heaven getting more minutes as he looked pretty comfortable when he came on against Fulham.

There is a lot to do to shape the squad and the type of outgoings we can manage will dictate the number and quality we seem come in.

 

[aeh1991]

I think Yoro is the Lisandro replacement. I think next season its gonna be Yoro-Deligt-Maz as our starting CBs until Lisandro gets back. Then Yoro and De Ligt will rotate with different positions while Maguire backs up the CCB. Heaven and another young academy CB can be our last min need. I don't think we need to heavily focus on CBs this summer, there's no point especially if we don't have Europe next year. Focus on the improving in the PL and maybe go for a sneaky domestic cup run. What's more important will be our WBs and potentially getting a GK to compete with Onana

We need at least one more CB since Lindelof and Evans will leave us. Even though they are not important atm, thwy still are "there". We need numbers, especially since there are 3 CBs in this system. One injury crisis and we end up playing Dalot or Ugarte there, that would be my horror. So, getting someone like Boscagli in makes totally sense.

 

[Xeque_279]

Agree with your thought process but not sure how many players will leave.

I think it’s fair to say most know who should leave but some are on monster salaries and won’t be attractive to other clubs.

A good all round striker will transform the team pretty quickly and from what I have seen I think Liam Delap ticks the boxes but there will be competition and we won’t be swimming in money.

Other than striker we need some players who are able to go past players to open games up. We currently Only have Amad and Garnacho, we comfortabley need at least 4 more to provide balance, cover and competition. A couple of them being physical athletes too would not hurt either.

I think the defence will be fine and see Heaven getting more minutes as he looked pretty comfortable when he came on against Fulham.

There is a lot to do to shape the squad and the type of outgoings we can manage will dictate the number and quality we seem come in.

Yeah agree with all. We will need to be really shrewd in the market, looking at free agents, buy backs and some other risky obscure buys.

Lindelof, Evans, Eriksen (End of contract) and Rashford & Sancho (Obligation/Option to buy) are pretty much guaranteed to be gone. Add to that Antony who's stock has risen, Casemiro who will accept lesser bids for (lower book value) and Zirkzee, who will have demand in Italy.

I think Garnacho will be sold too if we really need improve our cash flow. All those should be more than enough to get in some very prominent reinforcements.

 

[MaMa given red]

What a load of tosh of an article. Just look at Rubens spend during Sporting where he started from scratch and had to sell to buy.

The current Liverpool squad would have been 90a% there already. He probably would have needed a CB and wingback backup.

It's a lot easier trying to build a competitive Sporting team to play in the Portuguese league though.

It's harder than you think. You need a squad of six centre backs and specialist wing backs. Midfielders capable of playing in a two rather than a three etc.

 

[Bwuk]

What a load of tosh of an article. Just look at Rubens spend during Sporting where he started from scratch and had to sell to buy.

The current Liverpool squad would have been 90a% there already. He probably would have needed a CB and wingback backup.

Agreed. Liverpool would have fitted the system comfortably, maybe one or two additions at some point but from the start they'd be able to put out a strong side.

Allison
Konate - van Dijk - Gomez
Trent - MacAllister - Gravenberch - Robertson
Salah - Slobo
Diaz​

 

[Woziak]

Sounds like BS to me. They should calculate how much it will cost to replace VVD and Salah when they leave in the summer.

Could be more spin to rub it in with United fans but the Times also had the story and ran it first, it’s behind a paywall or I would post the link.

 

[Woziak]

It's weird that the exact reason we all clamoured to have a proper DOF for so long was so we could get some continuity between managers and have a long term vision etc, but as soon as we get a good one they're overridden and consequently sacked, and not many people seemed worried because Amorim was a popular hire. But are we even looking to hire a new DOF or are we going back to the old days of the CEO making those decisions and not wanting to delegate? If Amorim's job security is thin right now then surely Berrada should be starting to worry about his job too. If you decide to overrule the person who's job it's meant to be to identify a new manager and that manager doesn't work out, it's strike one at the least.

Very good post, totally agree although many on here will disagree. What’s really changed from Pre INEOS?

 

[soapythecat]

Realistic purchases this summer - without selling any players, maybe £20m to spend.
Antony will be on loan again as no one giving us £30m for him. So no money there.
Rashford is not going to generate more than £20m and will need paying off, so prob a loan again.
Malacia maybe £2m or another loan.
The only decent money we can count on is Garnacho, Mainoo or Bruno who are all pure profit. We are stuck with the rest.
We need at the very minimum 3 good players to avoid Amorim relegating us next season. Don’t see where we get the money for them unless we cash a pure profit sale, which weakens us further.
Best option is to switch back to a back 4 formation and pay off Amorim. Be cheaper than supporting a system that might not work and showing zero signs of doing so.

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

Interestingly there’s an article from a Liverpool fan based site, so take it with a pinch of salt that Liverpool estimated that it would cost £400m to implement Rubin Amorim’s system and this is why they turned him down, if that’s the case it might take £750m to make United an Amorim team over 3/4 years and 6 windows. So yep we should rename the thread to Vivell’s rebuild?

https://www.rousingthekop.com/2025/...-man-united-boss-ruben-amorim-had-been-hired/

I don't think Liverpool's decision-making is particularly relevant here. Liverpool were replacing a manager whose system was working well with the squad they had; we were replacing a manager whose system was absolutely not working with the squad that he'd built. It makes sense that Liverpool would make a decision based on maintaining and refining their existing playing style because it was already working, and likewise I think for us it made sense to go in a different direction because what we were doing under Ten Hag was not working.

I think there's merit to the argument that we've shifted too far too quickly but I don't think Liverpool's replacement of Klopp is a good point of comparison.

 

[tomaldinho1]

It's weird that the exact reason we all clamoured to have a proper DOF for so long was so we could get some continuity between managers and have a long term vision etc, but as soon as we get a good one they're overridden and consequently sacked, and not many people seemed worried because Amorim was a popular hire. But are we even looking to hire a new DOF or are we going back to the old days of the CEO making those decisions and not wanting to delegate? If Amorim's job security is thin right now then surely Berrada should be starting to worry about his job too. If you decide to overrule the person who's job it's meant to be to identify a new manager and that manager doesn't work out, it's strike one at the least.

The issue is the DoF title confuses people. Sporting Director, DoF, Football Director etc. Ashworth's role was very different to Txixi's for example, it's important to understand what the people actually do rather than look at their title.

Ashworth was essentially an ops guy, sitting above departments and essentially building/managing them. He was not hands on with scouting, nor talent ID, not defining tactics, nothing of that nature. He was arguably the best around at setting up the structure from what we know but even when he was at Brighton as technical director and you see list of 'Ashworth's signings', it was not him choosing the players, they used Star Lizard + scouting and then he basically sat above the recruitment team and would be involved in signings. Contrast that to someone like Leonardo at PSG who was reported to basically run recruitment himself and essentially the manager had to like it or lump it, and you see how different the jobs can be.

Vivell is now running recruitment, a good thing since his background is in that world and his track record of actually identifying players seems good i.e. he's not just a manager who sits at the head, he is hands on from what we know, both with data and with scouting.

Re footballing style, realistically this gets overblown, how specific can they be? How would United be any different to 90% of other teams? Amorim obviously fits what the club wants so we know he wants possession football, then Wilcox will build off that for the academy.

PSG post Leonardo are our reference point. As soon as you start to move away from the big name older players the future looks a lot brighter with a bit of a plan in place.

 

[Bright_Eyes]

Berrada does not have the authority to fire Ashworth and would never have done so in a million years without being asked by Ratcliffe.

There are multiple reports that Ratcliffe was angry with Ashworth's inability to set up a data department at the club along with him apparently trying to outsource decision making data on who the new manager should be. Ratcliffe felt these were the responsibility of Ashworth so if he's just going to outsource it to others then why have him earning millions.

It's possible that the director of football role will be filled by someone in the near future, hopefully Campos but to act as if Berrada is running around usurping people is just nonsense.

Okay, but there are also reports that Amorim was Berrada's choice and he powered that one through, so if that doesn't work out, perhaps largely because we don't have the squad for his style, then that's a big mistake. It was reported that it was a big part of the friction that lead to the sacking. And as far as I know, Ashworth had more of a background in making these kind of decisions than Berrada. Do we really want a CEO making these kind of decisions again? His main expertise appears to be in sponsorships and commerce whilst Ashworth's is in building sustainable structures and cultures and long term footballing strategy. Ashworth was the more qualified of the two to lead on the hiring of the new manager and he was ultimately overridden. If all of that was with the blessing of the owner, then that's even worse because it means we have an owner who isn't listening to the people with the most expertise.

 

[Bright_Eyes]

The issue is the DoF title confuses people. Sporting Director, DoF, Football Director etc. Ashworth's role was very different to Txixi's for example, it's important to understand what the people actually do rather than look at their title.

Ashworth was essentially an ops guy, sitting above departments and essentially building/managing them. He was not hands on with scouting, nor talent ID, not defining tactics, nothing of that nature. He was arguably the best around at setting up the structure from what we know but even when he was at Brighton as technical director and you see list of 'Ashworth's signings', it was not him choosing the players, they used Star Lizard + scouting and then he basically sat above the recruitment team and would be involved in signings. Contrast that to someone like Leonardo at PSG who was reported to basically run recruitment himself and essentially the manager had to like it or lump it, and you see how different the jobs can be.

Vivell is now running recruitment, a good thing since his background is in that world and his track record of actually identifying players seems good i.e. he's not just a manager who sits at the head, he is hands on from what we know, both with data and with scouting.

Re footballing style, realistically this gets overblown, how specific can they be? How would United be any different to 90% of other teams? Amorim obviously fits what the club wants so we know he wants possession football, then Wilcox will build off that for the academy.

PSG post Leonardo are our reference point. As soon as you start to move away from the big name older players the future looks a lot brighter with a bit of a plan in place.

That's true, there's a really wide range in what DOFs actually do. I do wonder if Ratcliffe really knew what he was hiring with Ashworth. If reports are true that he was angry that Ashworth wanted to use a data team to help with recruiting a new manager and just expected him to know who to hire, I'd say Ratcliffe really messed up there.

 

[tomaldinho1]

That's true, there's a really wide range in what DOFs actually do. I do wonder if Ratcliffe really knew what he was hiring with Ashworth. If reports are true that he was angry that Ashworth wanted to use a data team to help with recruiting a new manager and just expected him to know who to hire, I'd say Ratcliffe really messed up there.

I'm not sure I believe anything in the media right now re Ashworth - no one seems to know, the most logical thing though is simply Berrada/Ashworth had too much overlap and there was only going to be one winner.

 

[Woziak]

I don't think Liverpool's decision-making is particularly relevant here. Liverpool were replacing a manager whose system was working well with the squad they had; we were replacing a manager whose system was absolutely not working with the squad that he'd built. It makes sense that Liverpool would make a decision based on maintaining and refining their existing playing style because it was already working, and likewise I think for us it made sense to go in a different direction because what we were doing under Ten Hag was not working.

I think there's merit to the argument that we've shifted too far too quickly but I don't think Liverpool's replacement of Klopp is a good point of comparison.

The comparison was that they deemed Amorim would cost an additional £400m in giving a squad that he could succeed with, did our board do the same due diligence because if they did they would have known that he uses the first year to completely destroy then rebuild with his personal, the warning sign was he didn’t want to keep RVN as a Coach, he needs all of his staff to buy into all of his ideas?

The fact he’s now saying the Europa league is not important after saying the same thing about the Fa Cup just proves my point, we either back him or sack him!

 

[Roboc7]

The comparison was that they deemed Amorim would cost an additional £400m in giving a squad that he could succeed with, did our board do the same due diligence because if they did they would have known that he uses the first year to completely destroy then rebuild with his personal, the warning sign was he didn’t want to keep RVN as a Coach, he needs all of his staff to buy into all of his ideas?

The fact he’s now saying the Europa league is not important after saying the same thing about the Fa Cup just proves my point, we either back him or sack him!

That story about Liverpool is total nonsense, just clickbait they know will lap up in our circumstances. They could very easily adapt their formation in the short term, longer term they are going to have to spend a lot regardless of who the manager is because of expiring contracts and players ageing.

We’ve consistently heard that INEOS don’t rate how or who we have recruited, they don’t rate the squad, they want to start all over again and that’s reflected in who they appointed as manager. The squad will be gutted but it’s going to take time and there’s no guarantee of success at the end of it unfortunately.

 

[Woziak]

That story about Liverpool is total nonsense, just clickbait they know will lap up in our circumstances. They could very easily adapt their formation in the short term, longer term they are going to have to spend a lot regardless of who the manager is because of expiring contracts and players ageing.

We’ve consistently heard that INEOS don’t rate how or who we have recruited, they don’t rate the squad, they want to start all over again and that’s reflected in who they appointed as manager. The squad will be gutted but it’s going to take time and there’s no guarantee of success at the end of it unfortunately.

Then at least play attacking football at old Trafford and give the kids a chance, nearly all United fans would take that right now, even if we do continue to lose 40-50% of our games!

 

[Snormac]

Very good post, totally agree although many on here will disagree. What’s really changed from Pre INEOS?

What's changed from pre-Ineos? Well we can't be sure, since we only get a trickle of information about the internal workings of the club, and whilst we have the record of performance from 20 years of Glazer only management, its far, far too early to judge how successful the Ineos management are overall. So lots of speculation coming up, but I would say things are quite significantly different. What I'm going to do is list out some of the traits that stood out for me under both regimes, and whilst there will no doubt be similarities, I'm just trying to prove that there are significant differences.

------------

So firstly lets looks at the Woodward era and some consistent traits of his management:
1 - Reactivity in recruitment. Purchases were made either in response to market availability or urgent quality gaps - Mata, Di Maria, Ibrahimovic, Sanchez, Cavani, Ronaldo, Falcao, Valdes - surely more. No effort to build a long term squad - just, we need a player now, or he's available. Short term measures that didn't solve long term problems or set us up for future seasons. Also often last minute (Anthony, Fellaini, Ronaldo), showing a lack of forward planning.

2 - 'Superstar', engagement driving buys - Sancho, Ronaldo, Lukaku, Pogba - little consideration of fit or contingency (massive salaries that made them hard to shift on in case they went wrong). Good for the shirt sales, bad for the squad

3 - Little use of the scouting network - Ole commented on this, but it was plan to see - no bargain buys, unpolished diamonds or hidden gems - just names we all could have come up with. Remember AWB for £50m, when we had a list of 300 full backs?

4 - Poor at selling - Not just in terms of getting a good price - think of the loss on Di Maria and van De Beek - but also getting rid of players at the right time - Shaw, Rooney, Rashford, Jones. Part of that as well is the lack of consideration of selling when you put them on massive wages.

…and if you'll allow me, off the pitch matters

5 - Negligible Infra investment - Stadium, Carrington left to rot

6 - Bloated organisation - just in terms of workforce v our rivals. Ultimately contributes to the debts of the club.

So that's Woodward, and Murtough was much the same if not worse. So how does Ineos compare?

---------------

1 - Reactivity - I'd say Dorgu was a reactive purchase, but at 20yrs old one for the long term one. Clearer examples of proactivity are Heaven and Chido-Obi - not waiting until Martinez or Hojlund are gone, instead looking to the future - what's next. I have a sneaking suspicion Ugarte was snuck in in the summer on the off chance Amorim was coming as well.

2 - Big purchases/Superstars - Yoro was a substantial buy, Ugarte to an extent. Heaven, Dorgu, Mazroui, De Ligt were far more modest purchases (if not bargains in the case of Mazroui). But I wouldn't call any of them superstars. They seem sensible fits for what we needed at the time, and we didn't overpay only big names to shift shirts.

3 - Little use of the scouting network. I hadn't heard of Dorgu or Heaven before, had you? Vivell also seems to push us in a good direction where we lead by profile and data, instead of who the manager knows and wants

4 - Infrastructure - There's already been well publicised investments into Carrington, and of course you have all the long term stadium plans, so a definite improvement.

5 - Bloated organsiation structure - Ineos has been cruel and unnecessarily blunt, and overall their cuts have been extremely poorly handled. But certainly not the same as the Glazers, who were wasteful and irresponsible with their spending.

5 factors there that I think significantly sets Ineos apart from the Glazer regime.

----------------

So they're different, but ultimately the same because at the moment we associate both with failure. So much then depends on the summer. It'll be only their third window, their second summer window, and ultimately their first proper window that they had time to prepare for. It'll be a real opportunity to see whether they continue with the differentiating factors above - proactive purchases that are selected for their fit, that have been properly scouted in advance and sensibly paid for at a sensible point in the transfer window. Talk of Osmihen and Quenda violate some of those principles above, so lets see if those end up happening.

To finish off, there is the idea that buying for the back 3 shows that we've somehow abandoned the idea of setting a football model, and are being led by the manager again. I didn't mention this above because we can't know whether this has changed. Who says that if we were to get rid of Amorim, we wouldn't persist with a similar game model with similar player profiles. We can't know unless they get rid of him. Its very possible that this is in the new game model. Afterall we're continuously told that he was brought here to play his football. Maybe he is here to assist in building the new United game model, and whoever comes after will be expected to play similar to him. We don't know.

So tl;dr - its looking like a departure from how we operated before, let wait and see how it develops (which might as well be in my bio at this point)

 

[Woziak]

What's changed from pre-Ineos? Well we can't be sure, since we only get a trickle of information about the internal workings of the club, and whilst we have the record of performance from 20 years of Glazer only management, its far, far too early to judge how successful the Ineos management are overall. So lots of speculation coming up, but I would say things are quite significantly different. What I'm going to do is list out some of the traits that stood out for me under both regimes, and whilst there will no doubt be similarities, I'm just trying to prove that there are significant differences.

------------

So firstly lets looks at the Woodward era and some consistent traits of his management:
1 - Reactivity in recruitment. Purchases were made either in response to market availability or urgent quality gaps - Mata, Di Maria, Ibrahimovic, Sanchez, Cavani, Ronaldo, Falcao, Valdes - surely more. No effort to build a long term squad - just, we need a player now, or he's available. Short term measures that didn't solve long term problems or set us up for future seasons. Also often last minute (Anthony, Fellaini, Ronaldo), showing a lack of forward planning.

2 - 'Superstar', engagement driving buys - Sancho, Ronaldo, Lukaku, Pogba - little consideration of fit or contingency (massive salaries that made them hard to shift on in case they went wrong). Good for the shirt sales, bad for the squad

3 - Little use of the scouting network - Ole commented on this, but it was plan to see - no bargain buys, unpolished diamonds or hidden gems - just names we all could have come up with. Remember AWB for £50m, when we had a list of 300 full backs?

4 - Poor at selling - Not just in terms of getting a good price - think of the loss on Di Maria and van De Beek - but also getting rid of players at the right time - Shaw, Rooney, Rashford, Jones. Part of that as well is the lack of consideration of selling when you put them on massive wages.

…and if you'll allow me, off the pitch matters

5 - Negligible Infra investment - Stadium, Carrington left to rot

6 - Bloated organisation - just in terms of workforce v our rivals. Ultimately contributes to the debts of the club.

So that's Woodward, and Murtough was much the same if not worse. So how does Ineos compare?

---------------

1 - Reactivity - I'd say Dorgu was a reactive purchase, but at 20yrs old one for the long term one. Clearer examples of proactivity are Heaven and Chido-Obi - not waiting until Martinez or Hojlund are gone, instead looking to the future - what's next. I have a sneaking suspicion Ugarte was snuck in in the summer on the off chance Amorim was coming as well.

2 - Big purchases/Superstars - Yoro was a substantial buy, Ugarte to an extent. Heaven, Dorgu, Mazroui, De Ligt were far more modest purchases (if not bargains in the case of Mazroui). But I wouldn't call any of them superstars. They seem sensible fits for what we needed at the time, and we didn't overpay only big names to shift shirts.

3 - Little use of the scouting network. I hadn't heard of Dorgu or Heaven before, had you? Vivell also seems to push us in a good direction where we lead by profile and data, instead of who the manager knows and wants

4 - Infrastructure - There's already been well publicised investments into Carrington, and of course you have all the long term stadium plans, so a definite improvement.

5 - Bloated organsiation structure - Ineos has been cruel and unnecessarily blunt, and overall their cuts have been extremely poorly handled. But certainly not the same as the Glazers, who were wasteful and irresponsible with their spending.

5 factors there that I think significantly sets Ineos apart from the Glazer regime.

----------------

So they're different, but ultimately the same because at the moment we associate both with failure. So much then depends on the summer. It'll be only their third window, their second summer window, and ultimately their first proper window that they had time to prepare for. It'll be a real opportunity to see whether they continue with the differentiating factors above - proactive purchases that are selected for their fit, that have been properly scouted in advance and sensibly paid for at a sensible point in the transfer window. Talk of Osmihen and Quenda violate some of those principles above, so lets see if those end up happening.

To finish off, there is the idea that buying for the back 3 shows that we've somehow abandoned the idea of setting a football model, and are being led by the manager again. I didn't mention this above because we can't know whether this has changed. Who says that if we were to get rid of Amorim, we wouldn't persist with a similar game model with similar player profiles. We can't know unless they get rid of him. Its very possible that this is in the new game model. Afterall we're continuously told that he was brought here to play his football. Maybe he is here to assist in building the new United game model, and whoever comes after will be expected to play similar to him. We don't know.

So tl;dr - its looking like a departure from how we operated before, let wait and see how it develops (which might as well be in my bio at this point)

Only about 15% of coaches worldwide play 3 at the back and most of those are flexible enough to play 4 at times.

Amorim plays 5 defenders at home, not much has changed on the pitch this year, what will change on the pitch next year and why doesn’t the youth teams play with the same formation of 3421?

ETH made sure that the youth coaches played the same formation and integrated youth far more, at least RA has picked some of the youth a chance in todays Europa League Match.

Anyone who is brought in to change the game model for the future makes sure that the Youth team play the same formation and he can then find attacking wing backs and reverse number 10’s who do not play centrally but narrow right or narrow left, if they are not playing this position in Youth football for a year or two, how will they be ready for the first team?
Again Rookie Error 101!

That’s why I’m not buying he was brought into reshape the future and change our game model, because if he was he would have insisted that all youth teams play the same formation of 3421 as the first team.

Two and half year contract , Berrada telling Amorim that he must start now, suggests to me that the board thought that after 11 PL games and 15 points and a game where his sporting team had just thrashed City 4-1 in the CL that they just expected that RA would get an average of 1.8 to 1.9 points in the PL so 50 points from 27 Games and finish on 65 points which would mean United finished 5th to 8th and definitely make Europe.

They probably also thought he might win one of the three cups that the club was still in when they appointed him also giving the club a route to European Football.

Let’s be honest here, INEOS gambled and probably got it wrong like they did with Dan Ashworth and ETH.

 

[Roboc7]

Only about 15% of coaches worldwide play 3 at the back and most of those are flexible enough to play 4 at times.

Amorim plays 5 defenders at home, not much has changed on the pitch this year, what will change on the pitch next year and why doesn’t the youth teams play with the same formation of 3421?

ETH made sure that the youth coaches played the same formation and integrated youth far more, at least RA has picked some of the youth a chance in todays Europa League Match.

Anyone who is brought in to change the game model for the future makes sure that the Youth team play the same formation and he can then find attacking wing backs and reverse number 10’s who do not play centrally but narrow right or narrow left, if they are not playing this position in Youth football for a year or two, how will they be ready for the first team?
Again Rookie Error 101!

That’s why I’m not buying he was brought into reshape the future and change our game model, because if he was he would have insisted that all youth teams play the same formation of 3421 as the first team.

Two and half year contract , Berrada telling Amorim that he must start now, suggests to me that the board thought that after 11 PL games and 15 points and a game where his sporting team had just thrashed City 4-1 in the CL that they just expected that RA would get an average of 1.8 to 1.9 points in the PL so 50 points from 27 Games and finish on 65 points which would mean United finished 5th to 8th and definitely make Europe.

They probably also thought he might win one of the three cups that the club was still in when they appointed him also giving the club a route to European Football.

Let’s be honest here, INEOS gambled and probably got it wrong like they did with Dan Ashworth and ETH.

The game model isn’t about formations, even Ashworth said it’s about the qualities/skillsets of players not the formation of the team. You want alignment but that’s not about the formation it’s about the style of play.

 

[giorno]

Only about 15% of coaches worldwide play 3 at the back and most of those are flexible enough to play 4 at times.

That 15% includes Guardiola, Arteta, and Flick

Plus Xabi Alonso and Inzaghi, among the young highly rated managers

 

[gulli_G]

It's a lot easier trying to build a competitive Sporting team to play in the Portuguese league though.

It's harder than you think. You need a squad of six centre backs and specialist wing backs. Midfielders capable of playing in a two rather than a three etc.

The point I was making, was even if he had to rebuild a team from scratch it wouldn't cost that much.

At Liverpool he could adapt the existing players to the system with little or no transfers.

 

[Brazilian_Ronaldo_9]

Then at least play attacking football at old Trafford and give the kids a chance, nearly all United fans would take that right now, even if we do continue to lose 40-50% of our games!

Can’t just throw the kids in just for the sake of it. They have to be ready or else they’ll flop and lose the confidence.

Look at Obi, nervous and trying to control the ball in some situations but failing to do so. Gotta ease them into it.

 

[Woziak]

That 15% includes Guardiola, Arteta, and Flick

Plus Xabi Alonso and Inzaghi, among the young highly rated managers

And all of them are not fixed to a 3 at the back system, they are flexible enough to change their system depending on the game?

Xabi is playing 442 against Bayern tonight and has played 4231 or 433 quite a lot this season, Guardiola, Flick and Arteta set up 433 and then go to 325 when they are dominating the ball so really poor examples, even Conte who is the only manager to win the Premier League playing 3 CB system now mostly plays 4231, the Madrid derby last night, two much better coaches than ours decided to play 442 against each other, so not many really use 5 defenders with 3 CB’s and 2 Defensive Midfielders with 2 inverted narrow 10’s, especially in front of 75,000 fans at home!