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Amorim: «We are maybe the worst team in Man United history»
- Thread starter rio's upper lip
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
Well he did play Leicester twice and a nobody in Europe.
So we are selling another player that would be classed as homegrown, with Rashford linked away and Mainoo being touted to sell next season. We can't just keep buying non-home grown players to solve our problems and plug gaps in the squad. This isn't about tradition or the United Way but we need a balance and to be compliant. Just think in the past year we would have gotten rid of Kovar, Wan Bisakka, Alvaro Fernandez, McTominay, Hannibal, Greenwood and potentially Rashford / Garnacho...that's 8 players classed as homegrown and we will just spend on one season wonders who we are can't sell.
A top-half finish for a team full of players with numerous club and international achievements is not asking for a miracle.
Mid-table mediocrity and a bottom-half slump are very different. If Amorim can't secure a top-ten finish with this team, he shouldn't be trusted in the summer.
There is a reason its called a hard reset
On the first part, no one forced him to do anything. He could gave stayed at Sporting. It's not a criticism of him for taking the job mid season, but that was his choice and it doesn't become an excuse.
On the rest, I think you are making a very fair point, but there are two sides to it. I don't think a good manager should or would be forcing square pegs into round holes.
Having only one specific way to play and one specific formation and set of players it can possibly work with, amd refusing, under any circumstances whatsoever, to adapt from it, is not something that would be on a "good manager" checklist.
Moat of the squad this season will be the squad next season. If he can't get them to perform to even a poor level he's as good as gone already.
He is trying to motivate them and up the expectation. Unfortunately the skill level is just not there, but perhaps there needs to be a little more try and an improvement in the read in react column. I agree with him, this is the worst team I have seen in the 40 yrs I have supported them. They have no spark. You need to throw players out to dry once in a while to see who picks it up and who doesn't. Again though, these guys are questionable in that area or at least most of them are.
I love this idea of 'blind faith' in the manager.
It's not blind faith, it's called giving the fella a proper chance and accepting the big caveats that underline the size of the task he's facing.
If anyone genuinely thinks 8-10 training sessions is sufficient to transform this team into a consistent winning outfit, then I'm amazed at the niaiveity of that view.
We've seen proof that this system, when the application and desire are there, can win at city, outplay Liverpool at Anfield and get us a result away to arsenal. People used to say they could stomach shit results as long as there were signs of progress, but I wonder how true that is given many are ignoring the progress and turning on Amorim?
It's not blind faith, it's called giving the fella a proper chance and accepting the big caveats that underline the size of the task he's facing.
If anyone genuinely thinks 8-10 training sessions is sufficient to transform this team into a consistent winning outfit, then I'm amazed at the niaiveity of that view.
We've seen proof that this system, when the application and desire are there, can win at city, outplay Liverpool at Anfield and get us a result away to arsenal. People used to say they could stomach shit results as long as there were signs of progress, but I wonder how true that is given many are ignoring the progress and turning on Amorim?
Agreed, but it is enough to show some improvement. 1 step forward then 1 step backwards is not improvement.
I’m sure he could play nice, adapt to a comfortable style for the players we have and basically do what all the other managers did, (except Ralf) and we might finish 9th, Rashford would be smiling etc.
I like that he’s not doing that. I’m not an expert in systems or formations but I have seen a few excellent leaders. They all have a clear vision and don’t compromise on it, they clear out people who aren’t flexible enough to work towards the vision and they set high expectations from the start. It can be brutal until you turn the corner but if he has the support from above I have no doubt we will turn a corner and play with a better attitude and cohesion.
I am very confident this gets us back to around top 6, whether the system takes us higher or not I don’t know. But even if it doesn’t we will be in better shape as a result of the change. Purely because it knocked under performing players out of their comfort zone.
I see this worst team comment and the approach with Rashford as classic leadership approaches of visibly setting a high uncompromising standard and knocking people out of comfort zones to drive a change in culture. It does force change and God knows we need it. It’s also why he can’t be flexible on systems etc. If he shows flexibility then some coasters will think, maybe this will pass and I don’t need to change.
My only concern would be if we buy players (like Anthony) that are technically limited and can only play one role. Same with most if the current squad- move them a few yards from their ideal position and they look awful. We need to buy competent footballers that can adapt to a degree of formation change. That said the most recent transfers look more solid prospects than the throwing huge money at big names we have been at for ten years.
I like that he’s not doing that. I’m not an expert in systems or formations but I have seen a few excellent leaders. They all have a clear vision and don’t compromise on it, they clear out people who aren’t flexible enough to work towards the vision and they set high expectations from the start. It can be brutal until you turn the corner but if he has the support from above I have no doubt we will turn a corner and play with a better attitude and cohesion.
I am very confident this gets us back to around top 6, whether the system takes us higher or not I don’t know. But even if it doesn’t we will be in better shape as a result of the change. Purely because it knocked under performing players out of their comfort zone.
I see this worst team comment and the approach with Rashford as classic leadership approaches of visibly setting a high uncompromising standard and knocking people out of comfort zones to drive a change in culture. It does force change and God knows we need it. It’s also why he can’t be flexible on systems etc. If he shows flexibility then some coasters will think, maybe this will pass and I don’t need to change.
My only concern would be if we buy players (like Anthony) that are technically limited and can only play one role. Same with most if the current squad- move them a few yards from their ideal position and they look awful. We need to buy competent footballers that can adapt to a degree of formation change. That said the most recent transfers look more solid prospects than the throwing huge money at big names we have been at for ten years.
Results have been shit but they aren’t happening in a vacuum. I think it’s counterproductive for a manager to say things like this. I actually liked Ten Hag’s pressers when he’s say things like “yes it’s progress but we have to do better”. Amorim could probably have chosen his words better like, “this is the worst run of form we’ve been in for years — but it’s starting to come together.”
Saying we are the worst team without saying “I am currently the worst manager in the history of the club” would have been accurate. Some of these players are looking shitty but we have a lot of really good players who aren’t playing to their abilities, and now they’re being asked to play a system they haven’t trained for (1-touch, wingbacks, etc.)
Saying we are the worst team without saying “I am currently the worst manager in the history of the club” would have been accurate. Some of these players are looking shitty but we have a lot of really good players who aren’t playing to their abilities, and now they’re being asked to play a system they haven’t trained for (1-touch, wingbacks, etc.)
+1. Good post.
Breast implants!
But what you are describing is consistency... which is the thing I am saying will take time on the training pitch to find.
While I agree with your point in general. To be fair we've been in shite form for going on 2 years, perhaps impatientce is the appropriate descriptor. So while I'm all for giving Amorim time I wouldn't criticize any fan who's frustrated and/or nervous. As a result of having to endure 12+ months of watching the club sit on their hands and allow Ten Hag to drag us down to where we currently find ourselves wasting £600+ in the procees and leaving the club skint.
This has always been a red flag for me with managers, I still reserve judgement on Amorim. But in general having watched football for 30+ years I've yet to see anything to convince me that playing a 3 at the back formation has any tangible benefit over back 4 formations.
Wild take.
How long have you been watching this team for?
Last season it over achieved and finished 8th ffs. All the xG stats had us at about exactly where we are now.
Also “full of international players”. We are starting a 19 year old in midfield, we have no left back, we have two centre forwards who don’t score goals, we have one proven match winner in the eleven and we have zero match winners on the bench.
Good post. It's roughly the criticism we always throw at Pep, that he can only perform in a very specific setup. Surely a manager must have a modicum of flexibility, the job is first and foremost to make a team work, not buy a new team.
Doesn't necessarily mean a change of formation, there is a lot of tuning and adaption of approach to be done within the same numbers in a lineup
Fergie had won a European trophy with Aberdeen before Old Trafford. A huge difference.
The club has also become a monster and it needs someone with a huge personality to tackle these issues. I'm not sure Amorim can do that. Speaking in the press about the issues (a la Rangnick) is one thing. Solving the issues is something very different.
Amorim could still prove me wrong but somehow being worse than we were at our absolute worst under Ten Hag is some going. There might well be a long term plan but tossing away a season to try and implement that is shit.
Fans are, in some cases, paying £66 to watch this dross and they deserve to see something that isn't just an experiment.
In response to the part in bold, what's wrong with that?
He has the summer to rebuild, trying to implement a new style, and refusing to deviate from it, in the middle of a season is insane.
These players aren't the best, some would perform well at other clubs but they are what they are. He needs to get the best out of what he has now and use the summer (when he has more money to spend and time) to develop something new.
Maybe, we could actually use pre season to make the football side better rather than using it solely for the benefit of the club's commercial side.
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People going around claiming how we already had heart surgery, seems they didnt pay attention or have different agenda, whole thing should be ripped out right away and not having X small surgeries replacing one valve or two each summer.
The problem with that is that, come the summer, what players would he look to ship out? If we just revert back to a formation they're more comfortable with, how does he identify the players that can and cannot adapt to his preferred system.
We hired him based on his record, which is built on his preferred system. He needs to implement the system that got him here, and part of that is building his team around the players that can adapt.
How would he know who is capable to adapt to his style then?
We had open heart surgery, basically performed by Dr Nick. We replaced over 50% of the squad with players who barely make the benchmark for PL football, taking out PL quality (but not top 4 quality) and then they wondered why we can't handle the physicality of the league.
In past summers we did have a valve or two replaced but ETHs tenure we basically ripped out the core of our team.
I mean I have no idea if Amorim will succeed or not but isn't it obvious? He wants to ingrain his system into the squad as soon as possible. He will get new players in the summer but not an entirely new squad. So it would be very helpful for him if those dozen plus players that remain at the club already know the system then. A) they can guide the new players b) they can be relied upon at the start of the season when some of the new guys might still need some time to adapt. He has also said from the start he won't deviate from the system and wanted to stay at Sporting until the summer. Like it or not he's just a very dogmatic coach and the club hierarchy knew that when they hired him.
I watched that game and I can tell you now that the players here can’t deliver that week in, week out. We’ve seen they can do it now and then, such as against Arsenal and Liverpool, but we don’t carry the threat up front that Sporting did that day. Gyokeres was a menace running the channels, holding defenders and just causing problems for City. And the 10s were great at carrying the ball, creating chances and supporting runs into the box.
That played largely on the counter that day, and only really got going in the second half, but they were so good in that half and fought like crazy. After the game Amorim said he’d want us to dominate the game more than play in the counter, but we’re just too far away in terms of the players. Whether that’s ability, consistency or just attitude, sometimes it’s hard to say what the issue is. Maybe it’s just all an issue. I find it hard to believe it’s just ability, but I think the attitude of the players stinks and a loser mentality has been allowed to fester in this squad over the last few years.
Oh, you're right. I've also said a few times that changing the supporting actors, while the main protagonists remain the same, doesn't equal an actual overhaul. Or if some of them take their exit, but their replacements continue in the same tradition. In the end, it's a particular style that needs to be dropped, not just some players.
The 19-year-old started in the Euro finals. Maguire, Fernandes, de Ligt, Martínez, Onana, Garnacho, Dalot, Rashford, Mazraoui, Casemiro, Eriksen, and Ugarte have all achieved significant success at club level and have competed at the highest international stage, reaching semi-finals and finals, and even winning the most prestigious international trophies.
The team is shite because the tactics are shite.
Well i said that we had few heart surgeries but those did feck all when you dont do it all at once, its like warming a pool with bucket of hot water going back and forth, there is reason why huge majority of our signings after initial positive start turn into new deadwood after 3 months.
No surprise when you lose so many games, especially at home!
It's such a simplistic take to say "so and so started an important game one time", when you look closer and see that the position he started in was the weakest part of the team throughout the whole tournament. The rest of them weren't exactly undroppable were they? Rashford, I mean christ he can't get a look in at international level. Maguire has been pilloried in his time here and, ironically, is looking pretty good in this setup. Garnacho is young and inconsistent enough that he shouldn't be relied upon. Casemiro was brilliant at Real Madrid, won the lot and would have been excellent half a decade ago. Eriksen is a gifted technician who cannot run. Dalot is a good athlete with a good attitude but negative football IQ. Onana - today I learned that the amount of centre backs you play correlates with the amount of mistakes your goalkeeper will make. Mazraoui looks a good, solid pro who could be relied upon in a title challenging team to deliver consistent performances but if you're expecting him to raise the level of the team...
I kind of agree that we could setup in a way to make us harder to beat, grind out some draws and nick a few wins at OT and maybe get us a few places up the table.
However the fact remains the squad is terrible, and even if you removed Amorim you would still need to buy a striker, a CM, a left sided fullback/wb, a left sided centreback. So to say "don't back Amorim" is ridculous, the squad needs investment regardless of the manager.
You are comparing managers from different eras, Fergie in the 80', Mourinho in the 2000' and Slot nowadays at different clubs and that came in different circumstances. I really do not see any point in this comparison. There are also managers like Villas Boas who came from Portugal and was a disaster, Juande Ramos or Frank de Boer.
I am not judging Amorim because he came from Portugal, I am judging him based on what he showed so far at Manchester United. Our recent history post Fergie showed that we allowed managers enough time to show their true colors. Not once has a manager been given an unwarrantable sack and I'm sure Amorim will get the same treatment. If anything, we allowed managers to underachieve more than it was needed.
When a new manager comes at a club and he is worse than the previous underperformer manager, I start to get a little worried.
He didn't just participate in an important match; he played a crucial role in getting the team to that match. This team won't be a title contender for a long time, so I believe we should focus on utilizing the strengths of the players we have. These players are far better than their current position suggests. Our current decline is due to poor tactical management. Trusting a rebuild to a coach who has achieved little outside of his small pound seems counterproductive to long-term success. At a minimum, he has failed to stop the team from underperforming, so what makes you think he is capable of winning anything in the future?
I wonder if our lack of transfer activity this window is more dilly-dallying by Ineos, similar to the summer with EtH, who are now starting to have doubts on committing transfers to a 343
We’re really in an utter mess.
We’re really in an utter mess.
Never said he was.
My point is that this squad is not good enough regardless of the manager. I think Mainoo is an amazing prospect and you're right that he did well in the Euros but "crucial role" is stretching it a bit in my opinion. There are good players in the squad, but there are also glaring holes which I've pointed out already. I don't understand how you can watch our players lose duel after duel in every single match and think "tactics" or "formation".
At the end of the day, he is the coach at least until the end of the season (god help us if we sack him before that or he walks) and regardless of whether he continues afterwards we desperately need a striker and that wouldn't change if you had SAF in the dugout.
Spot on!
It is a tremendous gamble...or, the height of folly, to bring in someone who is going to do it his way come hell or high water... at this stage; especially when he is reported to have tried to hold on until the end of the season. Many assumed Ruben wanted to see out his time at Sporting, but it's now likely he knew he was being handed the 'poisoned chalice' ....earlier than he wanted.
You are also spot on about Tommy Doc, he had a clear-out because he already knew we were going down and wanted to begin to build a team to bring us straight back, and he did!
SAF's story is well known, he was believed to be 'on the edge' but according to Bobby Charlton he never was. Not sure if this is the case with Amorin, but the new football executive at OT have wandered into a 'patch of treacle,' that's for sure.
It's possible to have a short term plan and a long term plan.
It's clear that the current squad are struggling with the formation and as a result, we are routinely losing matches.
Failure to qualify for European football next season would be a disaster. We're already fecked financially and that would only add to it.
We have the summer to adapt with a new formation if the focus is on football activity rather than commercial. We need to pick up some results in the short term.
Ultimately, I can't say I'm particularly happy to be paying a hell of money to watch, what feels like its going to end up being a failed experiment.
I really hope I'm wrong. I really hope Amorim comes good. Most of this isn't necessarily his fault. There's just nothing from the last 12 years (and in particular the last 3) that says the club have the knowledge/expertise/insights to carry out any kind of long term vision.
Moyes took over and led Sir Alex's title-winning team to 7th place; the manager's ability to maximize the team's potential is just as crucial as the players' skills.
Chelsea got to a champions league final with Avram grant in charge, who played Essien at right back in the final.