I can't get that look out of my mind that he gave after seeing Duncan Ferguson (I think?) just attack someone
All Time Premier League Fantasy Draft - R1: Skizzo/Pat vs Tuppet
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
I can't get that look out of my mind that he gave after seeing Duncan Ferguson (I think?) just attack someone
Biggest reason was we assumed Anderton would be on that side, and with Bridge possibly attacking on occasion, we wanted the pace of Campbell there as cover.
Desailly and Gallas next to each other was a small factor too, but not the main one.
Hmmm, ok. I was wondering if the idea was they could make a back three of sorts when Bridge buggered off elsewhere, or even have Desailly pushing up into midfield (although it makes no sense at all here).
I can't help but feel Juninho hasn't gotten enough of a mention here at all.
Great pace, one of the best dribblers of the early premiership years. I don't think I'd be far off saying there's a similarity to Zola. I wouldn't quite put him on that level, more for length of time than lack of talent, and he would have a big say here I feel.
With Petit working his socks off, there's gonna be times when Xabi is the deeper of the two, and he just won't have the ability to stay with the little Brazilian.
With Rio covering Berg to help with Ronaldo, Koscielny stating with the movement of Saha, and cole on Kewell...there will be space and options for Juninho to pick that final pass or get through on goal himself.
I won't spam gifs...But there may be some videos of the little magician incoming
Great pace, one of the best dribblers of the early premiership years. I don't think I'd be far off saying there's a similarity to Zola. I wouldn't quite put him on that level, more for length of time than lack of talent, and he would have a big say here I feel.
With Petit working his socks off, there's gonna be times when Xabi is the deeper of the two, and he just won't have the ability to stay with the little Brazilian.
With Rio covering Berg to help with Ronaldo, Koscielny stating with the movement of Saha, and cole on Kewell...there will be space and options for Juninho to pick that final pass or get through on goal himself.
I won't spam gifs...But there may be some videos of the little magician incoming
The back three is an idea we toyed with, but couldn't quite get it balanced how we liked...or with the right fit with players.
Desailly pushing up was also a consideration, but as you say, he wouldn't really benefit from that here since I think there will be quite a bit of "dead space" between the front two and the deep midfield two.
Dead heat! Cracking match up to kick off the draft
Gonna mix it up a little to negate Tuppet's threat, and get a bit more width in the attack to open that defence.
Now with Kewell on his left side, he has the pace to keep Berg pinned back. Berg has already been set up in a defensive set up, so won't be looking to push on too high because the pace can be killer to make up. That means Kewell can bomb up and down that left side, and help double up with Bridge on Anderton when necessary, helping to curb his threat somewhat.
Ronaldo on the right side has the freedom to cut inside, or take it outside. Him and Cole have had some great battles, but Ronaldo has often gotten the better of him just enough to help make a difference. Plus with Juninho drifting out wide right, Cole will be torn to follow the runner wide, or follow Ronaldo. Gallas will still be the defensive minded RB to keep an eye on Nani since Ronaldo won't track back as often, to focus on his offensive output.
With Kewell now offering width on the left, Berg will be dragged farther wide, either opening gaps between him and Ferdinand, or making Ferdinand slide over to help cover which will leave gaps centrally. I back Juninho, Kewell, Saha and Ronaldo to find those gaps and exploit them.
This change gives us better movement up front, while adding a little extra to our already superior defensive set up.
Also, to add a bit to the PES stats that Tuppet put up earlier for Berg...I'll highlight an area where we've already shown he struggles and can be left struggling.
Berg
Top Speed: 79
Acceleration: 78
Agility: 76
Kewell
Top Speed: 88
Acceleration: 90
Agility: 86
Dribble Accuracy: 94
Dribble Speed: 85
So now with more limited service from Nani and Anderton, and a deep midfield leaving his front two isolated against an already superior defence, and the added width to stretch his defenders...I can see our attacking advantages seeing us through this game.
@Edgar Allan Pillow if you could be so kind to update for me when you get a chance thanks!
Now with Kewell on his left side, he has the pace to keep Berg pinned back. Berg has already been set up in a defensive set up, so won't be looking to push on too high because the pace can be killer to make up. That means Kewell can bomb up and down that left side, and help double up with Bridge on Anderton when necessary, helping to curb his threat somewhat.
Ronaldo on the right side has the freedom to cut inside, or take it outside. Him and Cole have had some great battles, but Ronaldo has often gotten the better of him just enough to help make a difference. Plus with Juninho drifting out wide right, Cole will be torn to follow the runner wide, or follow Ronaldo. Gallas will still be the defensive minded RB to keep an eye on Nani since Ronaldo won't track back as often, to focus on his offensive output.
With Kewell now offering width on the left, Berg will be dragged farther wide, either opening gaps between him and Ferdinand, or making Ferdinand slide over to help cover which will leave gaps centrally. I back Juninho, Kewell, Saha and Ronaldo to find those gaps and exploit them.
This change gives us better movement up front, while adding a little extra to our already superior defensive set up.
Also, to add a bit to the PES stats that Tuppet put up earlier for Berg...I'll highlight an area where we've already shown he struggles and can be left struggling.
Berg
Top Speed: 79
Acceleration: 78
Agility: 76
Kewell
Top Speed: 88
Acceleration: 90
Agility: 86
Dribble Accuracy: 94
Dribble Speed: 85
So now with more limited service from Nani and Anderton, and a deep midfield leaving his front two isolated against an already superior defence, and the added width to stretch his defenders...I can see our attacking advantages seeing us through this game.
@Edgar Allan Pillow if you could be so kind to update for me when you get a chance
thanks!Its a doozy. Hopefully most of the matches will be fairly close, with small advantages here and there. Hopefully the restrictions keep it fairly competitive throughout!
That's debatable. Cole did to an extent.
But the real question is whether you can presuppose a partnership which is not significantly different from the United one, based on what the two players looked like prior to moving to United.
We all know they were very good players, and they didn't suddenly transform into completely different types – that's not the point.
Oh this is much better honestly. With Cole in defending against Ronaldo now, It would curb most dangerous threat of SkizzoPat's team to some extent. Berg, has not changed his instructions, he is still going to defend deep and make it 3 CBs at times, which would allow Rio to step forward (if he needs to) to stop juninho. Although I am fairly certain my midfield is capable of negating his threat on its own.Gonna mix it up a little to negate Tuppet's threat, and get a bit more width in the attack to open that defence.
Now with Kewell on his left side, he has the pace to keep Berg pinned back. Berg has already been set up in a defensive set up, so won't be looking to push on too high because the pace can be killer to make up. That means Kewell can bomb up and down that left side, and help double up with Bridge on Anderton when necessary, helping to curb his threat somewhat.
Ronaldo on the right side has the freedom to cut inside, or take it outside. Him and Cole have had some great battles, but Ronaldo has often gotten the better of him just enough to help make a difference. Plus with Juninho drifting out wide right, Cole will be torn to follow the runner wide, or follow Ronaldo. Gallas will still be the defensive minded RB to keep an eye on Nani since Ronaldo won't track back as often, to focus on his offensive output.
With Kewell now offering width on the left, Berg will be dragged farther wide, either opening gaps between him and Ferdinand, or making Ferdinand slide over to help cover which will leave gaps centrally. I back Juninho, Kewell, Saha and Ronaldo to find those gaps and exploit them.
This change gives us better movement up front, while adding a little extra to our already superior defensive set up.
Also, to add a bit to the PES stats that Tuppet put up earlier for Berg...I'll highlight an area where we've already shown he struggles and can be left struggling.
Berg
Top Speed: 79
Acceleration: 78
Agility: 76
Kewell
Top Speed: 88
Acceleration: 90
Agility: 86
Dribble Accuracy: 94
Dribble Speed: 85
So now with more limited service from Nani and Anderton, and a deep midfield leaving his front two isolated against an already superior defence, and the added width to stretch his defenders...I can see our attacking advantages seeing us through this game.
@Edgar Allan Pillow if you could be so kind to update for me when you get a chance
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I would slightly alter my tactic, in that Petit would be more disciplined now and help out Ashley against Cristiano. I dont think Gallas is going to overlap much and that would help my team focus on Cristiano. This would free up Anderton on the other wing, Xabi can pick him and he would be my main ball carrier. He should cause some damage against Bridge.
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So now you have Petit giving up his box to box role and be more disciplined in holding. So now you have a 2 man midfield with both players rarely crossing the halfway line.
your biggest attacking advantage is this cole and yorke partnership...and now you're isolating them up against a very strong defence by sitting both midfielders deeper to try and defend ronaldo. Still leaving Juninho to probe around.
Even better for me, is that with you sitting off more, Arteta has time to pick passes of his own. He's more than capable of picking out passes himself, and had great assist records at Everton.
I put it in the edit but you posted first -
Before it is taken to mean that Petit would just abandon his Midfield duties, I mean to say he would help out if needed, not that Ashley would need it all the time.
Crisitano Ronaldo on Cole:
Chelsea left-back Ashley Cole has been nominated as the toughest opponent that Real Madrid star Cristiano Ronaldo has ever come up against.
When pressed on the issue, he told Sport-Express: "Ashley Cole. He's a very tough, tenacious football player."
Lampard on Cole:
“Ashley is the best left-back England have ever had and he’s shown that again," Lampard is quoted as saying by The Sun. "He has been brilliant.
“But that does not surprise me. I have seen him go toe to toe with the best names in the game and have never seen anyone get the better of him. Not Lionel Messi, not Cristiano Ronaldo, not anybody.
“He’s been the best left-back in England for years and to maintain those high standards over a decade is testimony to his skill and dedication."
From four four two website:
Not many full-backs tame Cristiano Ronaldo, but Ashley Cole's record against the Portuguese is phenomenal (we reckon CR9 only started playing through the middle just to get away from the England defender).
Not that Ronaldo is the only one. In his bulging back pocket, Cole has deposited pretty much every winger in the game today. Big or small, quick or slow, powerful or tricky, he's seen them off.
As for isolating cole-Yorke, up front I dont see how, first Anderton is now more free from his defensive duties, he would definitely provide the link up option. On the other hand as well Nani would do the same. Also Yorke is not a stay in the box striker, he would come slightly deeper for sure to pick up the ball. Also, since right side is now much more free, Xabi can move forward more than before.
Honestly by putting Cristiano against Cole, you have given almost all of my side more freedom, Kewell was good, but so was Berg, and he won a title playing for Blackburn, he could take care of him.
Extremely hard decision, I think I really like what Tuppet pulled together here, while Skizzo as the favorite and drawing well from pick one. Really hard to put apart this teams but(without seeing the scores, but after reading the OPs and some posts) I've decided to go with the underdog.
Voted Tuppet. Loved the Anderton-Yorke-Cole combo, and I think Ronaldo might get frustrated here on the left against Rio-Berg(not beaten, just frustrated), and we all know how Ronaldo is when he's frustrated. If Saha was a tad better I'd say he'll draw Rio away but I doubt it will happen more than Anderton-Cole-York will find a way past Gallas/Bridge and find Cole-Yorke in a through ball.
Edit: I made the score even! Delighted with the decision.
Voted Tuppet. Loved the Anderton-Yorke-Cole combo, and I think Ronaldo might get frustrated here on the left against Rio-Berg(not beaten, just frustrated), and we all know how Ronaldo is when he's frustrated. If Saha was a tad better I'd say he'll draw Rio away but I doubt it will happen more than Anderton-Cole-York will find a way past Gallas/Bridge and find Cole-Yorke in a through ball.
Edit: I made the score even! Delighted with the decision.
I fail to see how an extra person who can track Anderton, and Petit having more defensive work to do, gives your team more freedom. With Petit now keeping an eye over his shoulder, it gives Arteta even more time on the ball to find his passes.
Anderton will be up against Bridge, Kewell at times, Gilberto is there to cover also...and we already established Nani on the left wing isn't him at his best. So with your two wide threats up against it, and your two center Mids so deep, I'd say yorke and Cole are a little isolated.
You voted without seeing the updates then. ..But fair enough
Not quite sure how much space you think the defence will give to their attack, especially with his Midfield so deep, there won't be as much service as he's trying to portray. Especially with Gilberto-campbell-desailly. It doesn't get much more solid than that...especially when looking across and seeing Koscielny.
Saha has fantastic movement and pace, definitely enough to keep the defence on its toes and draw them around...and that's not even factoring in Juninho coming at them.
It really doesn't get more solid than that, well done for building it, but the thing is I'm not sure that other side is much less impressive against the attacks. Even with Ronaldo on the right, I remember seeing a Barcelona vs Arsenal match at 2011 something like that, and Koscielny following Messi to the right all night long and absolutely killing him for most of the game, I remember thinking it was one of the best performances I've seen against Messi individually. So I do rate Koscielny-Cole as a duo against Ronaldo.
I really haven't seen the changes prior to voting, but I have now.
The thing you're new change has brought, and I'm not sure if you mentioned it, is Kewell vs Berg in terms of aerial battle. If the tactic was 'send Kewell & Juninho to overload that flank, cross tons of balls to the box and have Ronaldo on the far post dominate Koscielny and A.Cole aerially while Ferdinand is far away', that would've made it different, but it seems to me like this isn't the plan, and playing Mourinho style football against that defense is the wrong tactic for me.
Well that performance is irrelevant since it was champions league...but fair enough
so koscielny cole and petit are all keeping an eye on Ronaldo now? Even better Kewell vs Berg opens up all sorts of avenues, some of which I touched on. Width on that side which drags Berg out, which in turn pulls Ferdinand across, opening space for Juninho....who has been free all game. Kewell's pace is going to get him around Berg for crosses, which Ronaldo of course will be virtually uncontested on. Juninho can drift both sides, which is the beauty of his role here. Does Cole drift in with Ronaldo, or stay wide with Juninho? Either way, one of them gets more space.
The mourinho style defense comment was in terms of keeping a defensive right back alongside two physical deep defenders. Gallas covers the right back spot and holds. Position since Ronaldo will stay up. Cole can't attack otherwise Ronaldo gets left open.
For all the mention of how you don't see a kewell-Juninho-Ronaldo attack being enough to break down that defense....I don't see much on the flip side to see a breakthrough there.
I'd give us a large advantage on set pieces too. Campbell, Ronaldo, desailly, Gilberto won't have too much competition aerially from corners or free kicks into the box.
@Edgar Allan Pillow if you could be so kind to update for me when you get a chance
Done!
What a brilliant opening match. Great teams and superb discussions.
Thanks!
Well -Well that performance is irrelevant since it was champions league...but fair enough
Kewell vs Berg opens up all sorts of avenues, some of which I touched on. Width on that side which drags Berg out, which in turn pulls Ferdinand across, opening space for Juninho....who has been free all game. Kewell's pace is going to get him around Berg for crosses, which Ronaldo of course will be virtually uncontested on. Juninho can drift both sides, which is the beauty of his role here. Does Cole drift in with Ronaldo, or stay wide with Juninho? Either way, one of them gets more space.
The mourinho style defense comment was in terms of keeping a defensive right back alongside two physical deep defenders. Gallas covers the right back spot and holds. Position since Ronaldo will stay up. Cole can't attack otherwise Ronaldo gets left open.
For all the mention of how you don't see a kewell-Juninho-Ronaldo attack being enough to break down that defense....I don't see much on the flip side to see a breakthrough there.
I'd give us a large advantage on set pieces too. Campbell, Ronaldo, desailly, Gilberto won't have too much competition aerially from corners or free kicks into the box.
1. Why do I need Petit, Cole and Koscielny all to keep an eye on Ronaldo ? Ashley Cole by and large has done very well against Ronaldo in premier league and even against Messi in Champions league. Here is an example -
What I was trying to say that, Petit is best of my defensive midfielder and he is on the side of Ronaldo, who is your best attacker, its obvious he is going to help against him, same goes for kosc. Its nothing unusual, we are not triple marking him or anything, Ashley Cole is sufficiently upto the task.
2. You are overrating Kewell or underrating Berg, or both. How often both Rio and Berg would need to be out of position to contain Kewell ? I don't think too often. There is no extra space for Juninho, and he's got no free run. I am playing a 2 man midfield, both of whom are defensively sound, why would not they pick up Juninho ?
3. Its a myth that Rio / Kosc are not good aerially. Just because they are very good technically does not mean that they can not do a job in air. You hardly have a striker that would incite fear in my defenders anyway and Ronaldo who is your best header attacker as well, is occupied by Cole.
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Because he's just as capable of doing this.
Kewell has pace to burn, berg does not, therefore when kewell gets around him, rio will need to cover.
You're playing a 2 man deep midfield, petit covering for Cole on that side, Alonso won't be marking anyone closely because he does t have the ability to stay with Juninho. You count on your full backs holding my wingers one on one all game...it just won't happen. Once they get past, suddenly your whole shape gets pulled around as everyone tries to cover.
Doing a job in the air isn't the same as stopping someone like Ronaldo in the air.
You're also under rating Saha again, which hopefully your defenders do too so he can do what he does. And Cole being on Ronaldo stops him winning headers? I'd like to hear the rest of that argument.
Just saw this. Yeah their partnership was great, but this was before they ever partnered up. Whether you take that into consideration or not is up to you....but their supply line will struggle to get much going with what they are up against.
Both fair points these. While our reasoning for the swap wasn't because we thought Cole would shut him out, we wanted to have him get at Berg. With rio there though, it's a tough avenue.
Now we are back with everyone at their pomp, and little Juninho still not getting the credit he deserves here. With Cole occupied and Rio having to cover if Kewell burns Berg...Saha making a nuisance of himself, Juninho could easily be the difference maker that his talent allows him to be.
Plus like I mentioned at the change, anderton is his biggest threat, and now he's in the area of bridge, kewell and Gilberto (another getting no love for the beast he was) and will struggle to be the main supply line for yorke and Cole, who I maintain look isolated with that deep midfield pair.
This argument seem weird somehow, I mean yeah sure, wingers at this level do beat their fullbacks every once in a while, it doesn't mean it results into goals everytime, I have a great defense, Ronaldo would beat Cole sometimes, and Kosc would cover, he has great speed and he has done this job countless time. At the same time, the whole Berg not being as speedy as Kewell = Berg getting beat, Rio getting pulled, Juninho standing in middle = goal, scenario seem too contrived to me. To start with Berg not being speedy is the whole reason he is instructed not to move too forward and be disciplined. He is a very good defender, and a slower but good defender stopping a speedier player would not be the most unusual thing to happen in Football.Because he's just as capable of doing this.
Kewell has pace to burn, berg does not, therefore when kewell gets around him, rio will need to cover.
You're playing a 2 man deep midfield, petit covering for Cole on that side, Alonso won't be marking anyone closely because he does t have the ability to stay with Juninho. You count on your full backs holding my wingers one on one all game...it just won't happen. Once they get past, suddenly your whole shape gets pulled around as everyone tries to cover.
Doing a job in the air isn't the same as stopping someone like Ronaldo in the air.
You're also under rating Saha again, which hopefully your defenders do too so he can do what he does. And Cole being on Ronaldo stops him winning headers? I'd like to hear the rest of that argument.
I am not claiming they would never get beat, but I have a good system, with 2 midfielders who are defensively great, and 2 fast technical defenders, one of whom is the best defender in draft. So yeah my fullbacks might get beaten sometimes (like any team's would, including yours) wouldn't mean it instantly create a goalscoring chance.
Ok, Alonso is not marking anyone cause he does not need to. Alonso is a top quality midfielder who has played with lesser partners than Petit and against better AMC than Juninho, and has excelled. This whole argument no legs = beat, no speed = beat just does not hold in real world. When playing for Liverpool Alonso always did his part defensively. As I mentioned before Carrick is a great example, he has not become arguably the best defensive midfielder in the league in last 3-4 years by having great mobility or great speed, but by being more intelligent and having better positioning than others. As much as you like Juninho, Xabi is comfortably the best central mid on the pitch.
Finally does these argument not apply on your team. Would Nani never beat Gallas and create chances for Yorke and Cole ? (and he has ripped Gallas before while playing from left). I would argue that at his peak Nani was a better winger than Kewell. In his peak season Kewell provided 15 assists, while Nani provided 22, 18 and 15 in 3 seasons. Similarly Anderton is going to beat Bridge at least a few times. Its arguably a bigger mismatch than Berg-Kewell is. What is your plan for handling Cole-Yorke btw, is Gilberto going to pick up Yorke ? what happens when Nani beats Gallas and Desailly has to cover ? how do you look after both Yorke and Cole, since Gilberto is helping Bridge with Anderton.
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With all the debates, I still think it is very close
Tuppet's team will not be caught off-guard in defense. Even with Ronaldo and Juninho overloading the right flank, Tuppet still has Cole (arguably the best defensive LB in this draft) and Petit on that side of defense, with Koscielny standing by. Same goes for the left flank: Kewell-Juninho against Berg-Alonso with Ferdinand on guard. Ferdinand and Koscielny will take turn to keep an eye of Saha, depending on where the attack comes from
On the other hand, Skizzo's CB partnership of Desailly-Campbell is superb, even when Desailly is not in his prime (in Milan). They are more than capable of negating Cole-Yorke to large extend. Bridge is not as defensively-sound as Cole IMO, but with Gilberto on the same side, is comfortable to deal with Anderton. Nani is slightly less-threatening on the left as compared to right, because he will cut inside most of the time, making his attacking pattern more predictable. Petit-Alonso won't risk going up unnecessarily to avoid getting caught by counter
So it has to come to personal bias, and I rate Tuppet's team slightly more. I think his team is more cohesive
Tuppet's team will not be caught off-guard in defense. Even with Ronaldo and Juninho overloading the right flank, Tuppet still has Cole (arguably the best defensive LB in this draft) and Petit on that side of defense, with Koscielny standing by. Same goes for the left flank: Kewell-Juninho against Berg-Alonso with Ferdinand on guard. Ferdinand and Koscielny will take turn to keep an eye of Saha, depending on where the attack comes from
On the other hand, Skizzo's CB partnership of Desailly-Campbell is superb, even when Desailly is not in his prime (in Milan). They are more than capable of negating Cole-Yorke to large extend. Bridge is not as defensively-sound as Cole IMO, but with Gilberto on the same side, is comfortable to deal with Anderton. Nani is slightly less-threatening on the left as compared to right, because he will cut inside most of the time, making his attacking pattern more predictable. Petit-Alonso won't risk going up unnecessarily to avoid getting caught by counter
So it has to come to personal bias, and I rate Tuppet's team slightly more. I think his team is more cohesive
That has wild goose chase written all over it.
I felt Skizzopat were playing into your hands before, but their setup is flawless now. They are actually going to really struggle to upgrade this side going forward as it all fits together very nicely.
You still have a cracking threat on the counter but overall I think they'll dominate the game and with the players they have will end up outscoring you.
Uh oh... seems I just made it a draw again.
Well before I get in to answering your questions, lets talk about weird arguments.
Nowhere that I've checked has Nani down with 22, 18, and 15 assists in the Premier League. I assume you're counting every assist for the season? In which case should Ronaldo's champions league goal tally count towards his goals here too? Not to mention that you have him playing on the left. Which is where he is most inconsistent. His best form was on the right, by far. Which is why we had the problem with him and Valencia, because Valencia can only play on the right, and Nani can only play well consistently on the right. Moving him on to the left here doesn't give you 22, 18, and 15 Nani, which you don't have anyway since we've padded those numbers.
Tuppet said:
Irrelevant point about the FA Cup (Joe Hart was called a phenomenon by Messi for his CL game against Barcelona where he set a record for most saves) . His all time great performances came long before the Premier League. Like stated earlier, he had a poor defence too, but he certainly wasn't near the same all time great of English football. Playing him up to be anything more than a pretty good keeper at that stage just isn't really true. In a close game like this could be, having a more reliable keeper (Hart) behind a more solid defence (ours) can make all the difference.
As for the above comments/questions you've asked...
Kewell having a speed advantage over Berg is a big deal here. I'll explain why. Berg knows he can't keep up with Kewell, meaning he either stands off, or dives in and risks getting beat. Will it happen every time? No, of course not, I don't think i said anywhere that he would do it every time. However, if Berg stands off, Kewell has space to put crosses in. Crosses towards the back post with Ronaldo coming in are at my advantage. Doesn't matter how you want to spin it, Cole won't stop Ronaldo in the air, and neither will Koscielny. Will that be a goal every time? No, but it's a clear scoring threat.
Now let's assume Berg says he's gonna stay tight to Kewell instead, not give him space to cross. Might work sometimes, or might backfire. If he mistimes a tackle, Kewell is away, Rio has to cover. Will it happen every time? No. If it happens are you in trouble? Absolutely. All of a sudden Berg is out of the picture, trying to get back, Rio slides over. Gaps open up, no two ways about it. Alonso, as good as he is, isn't keeping up with Juninho. Will that be a goal every time? No, but it's a clear scoring threat.
Plus even if Berg does win the ball, his disadvantage with pace can be a problem too.
Xabi does well defensively because he shuts down channels and reads passes to intercept them. His defensive strengths don't match up well with Juninho's style of play. He's quick, fantastic dribbler, can turn on a dime. Carrick wouldn't do well against him either, and I rate him just as highly in the role you have Alonso.
Peak Nani vs Kewell argument doesn't really fly. You have padded stats, and Nani on his non-peak form side.
My plan for handling Cole and Yorke has already been addressed. They need supply, you stated that the supply would come from Xabi, Anderton, and Nani. Let's address those one at a time.
You originally stated Xabi will be pinging passes around, staying disciplined, and occasionally foraging forward. Who is he pinging these passes out to? High balls in towards the strikers will get gobbled up by Campbell and Desailly. Playing in to their feet could work, but with both of your central midfielders playing deeper now (as you've stated) they won't have anyone to lay the ball of to. Passes out wide to Anderton and Nani?
Anderton won't have any help from Berg, so he'll be out wide on his own. He comes up against Bridge, but like you, I have cover in Gilberto, and Kewell will be on that side now tracking back too. There's a much smaller chance of him working that piece of...let's call it...Ronaldo magic, and putting a cross in to the box. Let's say he does get the ball in, as you say, at this level we can assume it might happen on occasion. Who wins the headers in there? Campbell and Desailly I'd back. So with a slim chance of him getting the ball into the box as it is, and an even slimmer chance of one of the strikers then winning it...it's a pretty slim chance. We'll call it a chance still though.
Nani we've already addressed on the left side as his weaker side. If you want any arguments on that, look at every thread on here regarding Nani and his inconsistent form while not playing on the right side. Could he still put a cross in? Sure, same issue though. Could he cut inside and shoot? Sure, but inside Gallas is Desailly. We'll call it another slim chance then.
At the beginning you backed your team to have more of the ball and clearer chances. After everything discussed, I don't see how you can honestly still back that. There's too much of a gap between your attackers and mids now with them sitting deep. There's too much pressure on your wingers to beat multiple men to put a ball into an area that you aren't the favourites to win it anyway. We're better set up defensively, we have clearer ways of shutting down your threats, and we have more players capable of those little moments of magic that can make a difference.
We have a better keeper in his peak form in the Premier League.
I didn't even mention Campbell being on an unbeaten league side, even though based on your Yorke and Cole logic, we know he could do it, because he did. Different players around them though, makes all the difference.
Finally, your midfield instructions/comparisons have been all over the place.
Even though you aren't since you don't have the central midfielders to play that style at all.
Except Petit is far away from Keane, and Alonso played nothing like Scholes did in United's 442
Backtracking now. So it's not like United 99? It's like Alonso-Masch. Who thrived with Gerrard playing some of his best football ahead of them. Here they're by themselves in a midfield two.
So Petit is carrying the ball up the field, running all the way back to win it from Juninho as well. Fair enough. And Gilberto and Arteta? Good thing I have them there, especially since Arteta can pick a peach of a pass himself. Also, now its not like Keane-Scholes, or Alonso-Masch, now its like Alonso-Khedira? Now we're not even comparing it to midfielders from the premier league.
So not really a midfield two then. Having that extra attacking midfielder ahead can really help.
You're asking way too much of Petit. He's covering on one side, dropping deep to cover another, and still leaving Arteta and Gilberto free. Please though, let Rio step out of defence to stop Juninho.
So Petit is less box to box completely now, and is more disciplined. So now Xabi and Petit are disciplined. Anderton to be the main ball carrier? See points above.
Messi point irrelevant. Hart phenomenon etc. You said they're all keeping an eye on him. Being more disciplined to help cover him. And I would guess you'd want that because Ronaldo is still capable of beating Cole. Will it happen every time? No. But when it does, they need to cover, which means someone is coming over. Which means space opens up. Fluid isn't it? Helps having someone like Juninho there who can find those gaps and punish it.
So Alonso is just looking to cover channels and intercept? That's fine with me. You keep talking about how balanced your midfield two is. My three midfielders are just as balanced, plus have the benefit of having an extra man in there to recycle possession and pass it around.
And lastly (did I say lastly already? Probably )
You might not rate them...and hopefully that rubs off on your players. Underrate the rest of them and see what they can do Your midfielders are already confused about who they are even supposed to play like at this rate
Tuppet said:
Even though you aren't since you don't have the central midfielders to play that style at all.
Tuppet said:
Except Petit is far away from Keane, and Alonso played nothing like Scholes did in United's 442
Tuppet said:
Backtracking now. So it's not like United 99? It's like Alonso-Masch. Who thrived with Gerrard playing some of his best football ahead of them. Here they're by themselves in a midfield two.
Tuppet said:
So Petit is carrying the ball up the field, running all the way back to win it from Juninho as well. Fair enough. And Gilberto and Arteta? Good thing I have them there, especially since Arteta can pick a peach of a pass himself. Also, now its not like Keane-Scholes, or Alonso-Masch, now its like Alonso-Khedira? Now we're not even comparing it to midfielders from the premier league.
Tuppet said:
So not really a midfield two then. Having that extra attacking midfielder ahead can really help.
Tuppet said:
You're asking way too much of Petit. He's covering on one side, dropping deep to cover another, and still leaving Arteta and Gilberto free. Please though, let Rio step out of defence to stop Juninho.
Tuppet said:
So Petit is less box to box completely now, and is more disciplined. So now Xabi and Petit are disciplined. Anderton to be the main ball carrier? See points above.
Tuppet said:
Messi point irrelevant. Hart phenomenon etc. You said they're all keeping an eye on him. Being more disciplined to help cover him. And I would guess you'd want that because Ronaldo is still capable of beating Cole. Will it happen every time? No. But when it does, they need to cover, which means someone is coming over. Which means space opens up. Fluid isn't it? Helps having someone like Juninho there who can find those gaps and punish it.
Tuppet said:
So Alonso is just looking to cover channels and intercept? That's fine with me. You keep talking about how balanced your midfield two is. My three midfielders are just as balanced, plus have the benefit of having an extra man in there to recycle possession and pass it around.
And lastly (did I say lastly already? Probably
) Tuppet said:
You might not rate them...and hopefully that rubs off on your players. Underrate the rest of them and see what they can do
Your midfielders are already confused about who they are even supposed to play like at this rate After looking at the discussion and the teams throughout this time, I've decided that I don't really like Tuppet's team that much.
Tuppet's left side is almost nonexistent with Nani on that side. Every time he's played on that side, he's frequently cut inside to the middle and even often drifted to the right channel. The only way he's been effective on the left is when he's drifted inside. Otherwise, when playing on the left wing, he's struggled to stretch the opposition and handle opposing left backs as he favours cutting inside to his right foot frequently.
Ashley Cole can come forward and do the damage as he's proven with Chelsea, but since he's facing C. Ronaldo, I doubt he'd be able to push forward. Plus, if he does, there really isn't anyone around to cover the left channel. Petit, although he was someone who could cover for attacking players, was more of a ball-winner and preferred to try to win the ball, and Koscielny's a really aggressive defender who isn't the most aware of his surroundings.
C. Ronaldo will cause Tuppet's teams lots of problems here. Koscielny is a ball winner and prefers to win the ball quickly. Because of this, he's better off with a defensive partner who'll read the game and cover for his aggressive playing style. In this case, Ferdinand's perfect for that, and he's proven himself by playing alongside Vidic. However, the issue, for me, here is that Vidic was controlled in his aggression and wasn't always pushing up to try to win the ball quickly. Koscielny, however, frequently does this, and because of this, he often gets caught out. Thus, I feel like Juninho, C. Ronaldo, and Saha can cause Koscielny problems in different situations (Juninho receives ball with C. Ronaldo running inside, C. Ronaldo beating Cole with Koscielny coming out to face him, Saha making run on left channel if Kos gets preoccupied with where the ball is, etc.) Also, he's average in the air, and with C. Ronaldo, Saha, Campbell, etc., to deal with in set pieces, I see him struggling against those sort of players.
Now, Tuppet's right defensive side consists of players that the left side badly needs, funnily enough, and the right side needs players Tuppet's left side badly needs.
Skizzo/Pat's team has more balance and a better setup, IMO, than Tuppet's, and I'll be voting for Skizzo/Pat's team here unless Tuppet can convince me otherwise.
Tuppet's left side is almost nonexistent with Nani on that side. Every time he's played on that side, he's frequently cut inside to the middle and even often drifted to the right channel. The only way he's been effective on the left is when he's drifted inside. Otherwise, when playing on the left wing, he's struggled to stretch the opposition and handle opposing left backs as he favours cutting inside to his right foot frequently.
Ashley Cole can come forward and do the damage as he's proven with Chelsea, but since he's facing C. Ronaldo, I doubt he'd be able to push forward. Plus, if he does, there really isn't anyone around to cover the left channel. Petit, although he was someone who could cover for attacking players, was more of a ball-winner and preferred to try to win the ball, and Koscielny's a really aggressive defender who isn't the most aware of his surroundings.
C. Ronaldo will cause Tuppet's teams lots of problems here. Koscielny is a ball winner and prefers to win the ball quickly. Because of this, he's better off with a defensive partner who'll read the game and cover for his aggressive playing style. In this case, Ferdinand's perfect for that, and he's proven himself by playing alongside Vidic. However, the issue, for me, here is that Vidic was controlled in his aggression and wasn't always pushing up to try to win the ball quickly. Koscielny, however, frequently does this, and because of this, he often gets caught out. Thus, I feel like Juninho, C. Ronaldo, and Saha can cause Koscielny problems in different situations (Juninho receives ball with C. Ronaldo running inside, C. Ronaldo beating Cole with Koscielny coming out to face him, Saha making run on left channel if Kos gets preoccupied with where the ball is, etc.) Also, he's average in the air, and with C. Ronaldo, Saha, Campbell, etc., to deal with in set pieces, I see him struggling against those sort of players.
Now, Tuppet's right defensive side consists of players that the left side badly needs, funnily enough, and the right side needs players Tuppet's left side badly needs.
Skizzo/Pat's team has more balance and a better setup, IMO, than Tuppet's, and I'll be voting for Skizzo/Pat's team here unless Tuppet can convince me otherwise.
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Cheers for the feedback.
Per the bolded part...I'm glad someone else has finally picked up on this. Felt like I was talking to myself for a while about it
For all the talk of Nani's assists and great form...he always struggled for consistency on the left, and as you say, wanted to always come inside. With Cole occupied on trying to keep Ronaldo quiet, there's no one on that left side to do the job needed. Sorry @Skizzo, I was drunk when I voted and posted. On hindsight there really isn't much to choose, and Gilberto, Arteta, Juninho would work a charm IMO. My biggest concern is Saha, and I believe a Fulham Saha was greater than Saha for United.Had to go for Skizzo in the end, the switch made a lot of sense and despite Cole's heroics against Cristiano, here with Juninho in support on that side, it would surely lead to some penetration. Nani's point is quite valid too, it was Valencia's form that forced Fergie to play Nani on the left whereas most of his better performances came from the right. Close game as expected but a set piece or something will give Skizzo a narrow win and fwiw Cristiano was good at them at United.
Edit : and I made it a draw. 18-18!
Edit : and I made it a draw.
18-18!I've been to OT when Nani scored this goal from the left, he didn't have any problems playing on either wing and I remember liking seeing him more on the left than on the right when he was decent.Had to go for Skizzo in the end, the switch made a lot of sense and despite Cole's heroics against Cristiano, here with Juninho in support on that side, it would surely lead to some penetration. Nani's point is quite valid too, it was Valencia's form that forced Fergie to play Nani on the left whereas most of his better performances came from the right. Close game as expected but a set piece or something will give Skizzo a narrow win and fwiw Cristiano was good at them at United.
Edit : and I made it a draw.
You can certainly make a highlight reel of his goals/assists from the left, it wasn't that he never did anything from there but I distinctly remember him being really frustrating and wasteful from that side, and it was clear that he won't be switched given Valencia was on fire.
He left a feeling of being wasteful and frustrating anywhere he played. That's part of the Nani magic tbf, he can have one or two amazing moments in a match where he played shit, and you'd still remember the shit because of the games he was shit throughout the entire match.
Some game this. I'm assuming that no managerial teams have voted more than once?