All Time Premier League Fantasy Draft - R1: Skizzo/Pat vs Tuppet

With players at peaks in the teams indicated, who will win?


  • Total voters
    41
  • Poll closed .
Old thread from here where the general consensus was that Ronaldo was actually better for us on the left wing:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ronaldo-evra.225322/

And highlights from the match that preceded the thread, with Ronaldo scoring twice from free kicks and going on the outside of their defence before assisting Carrick.

 
@Tuppet you are trying to play the mufc blue print from the 90s. I think thats wrong because your centre midfielders arent dynaic enough.. keane and scholes where two box to box midfielders and could run 90mins.. alonso is your feet up light a cigar type and like you said petit was vieiras cover..
 
@Tuppet you are trying to play the mufc blue print from the 90s. I think thats wrong because your centre midfielders arent dynaic enough.. keane and scholes where two box to box midfielders and could run 90mins.. alonso is your feet up light a cigar type and like you said petit was vieiras cover..
umm yeah, Petit was definitely very mobile and was able to run up and down the pitch. I take your point about Xabi being not as aggresive as young Scholes, but he had great stamina and moved a lot. My midfield has slightly less flair but more defensive solidity.

 
@Tuppet you are trying to play the mufc blue print from the 90s. I think thats wrong because your centre midfielders arent dynaic enough.. keane and scholes where two box to box midfielders and could run 90mins.. alonso is your feet up light a cigar type and like you said petit was vieiras cover..

:nono:

Petit played as cover for Vieira, but certainly is capable of playing box-to-box role. Alonso was never bust your gasket type player, but certainly could control games from the deep.

I don't see it much different from Scholes-Carrick partnership of 2007/08.
 
Points at first glance:

- Don't like Ronaldo/Kewell on the opposite wings of where they did the damage at stated clubs
- Campbell is down as Spurs (who knows why when there is an Ars slot available) but then it's mentioned that he was part of the he invincibles side which can't be taken into account
- Cole and Yorkes pre united goal records and performances have been mentioned which is fine, however there is also the final point of this section saying about the best partnership, again this is not something that would have been known at this point and can't be considered. Cole and Yorke are different too the usual partnership where they thrived on a mental connection it seemed, which is something we couldn't guess to have happened before we actually played them together at United. We can sometimes guess that a partnership could be effective by saying the playing styles compliment each other well (or we think they would aka Ferdinand and Hernandez could work in no bit man little man combination, however there was more to it than simply matching up styles with Yorke/Cole which is why I'd struggle with judging them on a partnership in this criteria.
 
:nono:

Petit played as cover for Vieira, but certainly is capable of playing box-to-box role. Alonso was never bust your gasket type player, but certainly could control games from the deep.

I don't see it much different from Scholes-Carrick partnership of 2007/08.

That's an apt enough comparison, but that was a very different midfield in terms of style than Keane/Scholes circa 99, which is what Tuppet is aiming for tactically:

My team is playing a fast paced 4-4-2, which is based on the Manchester united-99 blueprint

Its a good central midfield, but its not well-suited to the tactics he's trying to deploy.
 
Two good teams but went for Tuppet mainly because of the Yorke-Cole partnership and the supply that they'll be getting. Those two absolutely ripped it up between 1999-2002 & in this draft they'll be extremely tough to stop.
 
Two good teams but went for Tuppet mainly because of the Yorke-Cole partnership and the supply that they'll be getting. Those two absolutely ripped it up between 1999-2002 & in this draft they'll be extremely tough to stop.

The draft criteria states they should be judged on their pre united days as discussed in my post above
 
Andy cole ! man, he was a force of nature in Newcastle. 34 goals and 17 assists in one season, only Ronaldo comes close to his goal scoring feat in this match -

 
The draft criteria states they should be judged on their pre united days as discussed in my post above

Ah right, didn't realise that. It's a bit difficult to not think of their Utd link-up play though when you see them together on a teamsheet...
 
That's an apt enough comparison, but that was a very different midfield in terms of style than Keane/Scholes circa 99, which is what Tuppet is aiming for tactically:



Its a good central midfield, but its not well-suited to the tactics he's trying to deploy.

Agreed. @Tuppet has a inconsistency in tactics. He should revert to 2007/08 team tactics which would suit his players better.
 
For the record regardless of my Yorke/Cole moaning I'm swaying to going with them but waiting until after some more discussion to voting!
 
Points at first glance:

- Don't like Ronaldo/Kewell on the opposite wings of where they did the damage at stated clubs
- Campbell is down as Spurs (who knows why when there is an Ars slot available) but then it's mentioned that he was part of the he invincibles side which can't be taken into account
- Cole and Yorkes pre united goal records and performances have been mentioned which is fine, however there is also the final point of this section saying about the best partnership, again this is not something that would have been known at this point and can't be considered. Cole and Yorke are different too the usual partnership where they thrived on a mental connection it seemed, which is something we couldn't guess to have happened before we actually played them together at United. We can sometimes guess that a partnership could be effective by saying the playing styles compliment each other well (or we think they would aka Ferdinand and Hernandez could work in no bit man little man combination, however there was more to it than simply matching up styles with Yorke/Cole which is why I'd struggle with judging them on a partnership in this criteria.

Firstly, good spot on Campbell. Put that down to a brain fart by one of us and poor editing by the other :D

Secondly, the bolded part just isn't accurate imo. I've already posted evidence of how often Ronaldo played from the left for us and to what effect, but here's more:



By my count that's 7 goals from the left in the first 4 minutes alone?

Post #4 in this 2007 thread

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/evra-or-heinze.139294/

This from Pogue in a 2009 thread:

Last season Ronaldo did all his best work down the left.

This debate from this 2007 thread:

i'm finding it hard to compare ronaldo to evra. Obviously Evra is not a 'match winner' like ronaldo because he plays in defence, but i do think that if SAF were to drop evra for heinze then we would notice a lack of pace similar to that when ronaldo is not playing. Ronaldo's best play this season has always come from the left wing, the reason being because he has formed a perfect partnership with evra's attacking abilities. Ronaldo will always be the one that gets the credit, but evra is essential nevertheless.

Ronaldo has been just as good when playing on the right, where he has got a good partnership with Gary Neville....

Between all the footage and the debates on here through a substantial portion of his Utd career, the evidence is clear that he played plenty on the left, to brilliant effect. I'm surprised people don't remember.

Kewell is more debatable - he did break into the team as a left winger, but after Wilcox joined in 99-00 and started most of the time as an orthodox left winger, Kewell shifted infield and then started slotting in anywhere across the attacking positions. Another lethal performance from the right:

 
Agreed. @Tuppet has a inconsistency in tactics. He should revert to 2007/08 team tactics which would suit his players better.
Fair enough, when I compared my midfield to Keane - Shcoles , I meant as a creator destroyer combo, while both being technically good. If you like you could think of this as Alonso - Mascherano midfield, just that on PL form, Petit was much better (and technically sound) than Masch.
 
This is just somebody's opinion, but still I am relieved that I am not the only one who remembered Berg being very good defensively. PES stats for your delight ;)
Club: Blackburn Rovers
Number: 2
Position: *CB, SB
Nationality: Norwegian
bv.gif

Age 25-26 (10/06/1969)
Era: 1994/1995

Foot: R

Height: 184 cm
Weight: 76 kg (?)

Attack: 69
Defence: 86
Balance: 83
Stamina: 84
Top Speed: 79
Acceleration: 78
Response: 85
Agility: 76
Dribble Accuracy: 70
Dribble Speed: 73
Short Pass Accuracy: 76
Short Pass Speed: 78
Long Pass Accuracy: 81
Long Pass Speed: 78
Shot Accuracy: 65
Shot Power: 78
Shot Technique: 65
Free Kick Accuracy: 69
Curling: 70
Header: 78
Jump: 80
Technique: 73
Aggression: 69
Mentality/Tenacity: 82
Goalkeeper Skills: 50
Team Work: 83

Injury Tolerance: B
Form/Condition/Fitness: 6
Weak Foot Accuracy: 4
Weak Foot Frequency: 4
Consistency: 7

SPECIAL ABILITIES:
*Sliding
*Covering


INFO:

Henning Berg's career took off in Norway's match at Wembley in 1992 or 1993, I can't remember which year
icon_e_confused.gif
He kept England's left side quiet as a RB and after the game he was picked up by Blackburn. At the time Walker was heavily involved in the team, and they had a solid foundation for their success later on. David May and hard man Colin Hendry (Scotland's Terry Butcher) made up the central defence so Henning had to settle for the RB slot. And he did that very effectively, culminating with a title in 95.

As a Utd supporter I always hated watching the games vs Blackburn. Although Berg didn't have any extreme physical qualities, he was such an astute reader of the game that he mostly made up for his lack of pace by anticipating his opponent's moves. That was always the case when he came upon Giggs. At the time Giggs was at his best, his combination of pace and skill was unparalleled in the league, but Henning always countered it with standing off and forcing Giggs to make his move. Only to later block him.

He was very much a success at Blackburn and at the NT team too. Berg and Ronny Johnsen complemented each other perfectly, Henning would anticipate the opponent's moves and Johnsen with his pace would lap up the rest, making the partnership one of the better in Europe's NTs.

Utd had an eye on him in the late 80's and he even trained with them, but due to his lack of caps didn't get a work permit (things have changed I guess). SAF finally got him in 1997 for a record of 5 million £, the highest transfer fee for a defender at the time. His injuries had robbed him of a bit of pace though, and he wasn't as impressive as with Blackburn. He did win the treble and a lot of other titles, but Johnsen was the preferred choice mostly and he had to play second fiddle to his fellow noggie.

http://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5706
 
@Tuppet you are trying to play the mufc blue print from the 90s. I think thats wrong because your centre midfielders arent dynaic enough.. keane and scholes where two box to box midfielders and could run 90mins.. alonso is your feet up light a cigar type and like you said petit was vieiras cover..
Yet I think that having two more positionally disciplined types is arguably a better way of making a midfield two work against a midfield three. Sure they lose out in the box-to-box energy and runs into the box, but at least they don't give up the gaps and leave the space in behind that, for instance, made Fergie change his approach in Europe.
 
This is just somebody's opinion, but still I am relieved that I am not the only one who remembered Berg being very good defensively. PES stats for your delight ;)
Club: Blackburn Rovers
Number: 2
Position: *CB, SB
Nationality: Norwegian
bv.gif

Age 25-26 (10/06/1969)
Era: 1994/1995

Foot: R

Height: 184 cm
Weight: 76 kg (?)

Attack: 69
Defence: 86
Balance: 83
Stamina: 84
Top Speed: 79
Acceleration: 78
Response: 85
Agility: 76
Dribble Accuracy: 70
Dribble Speed: 73
Short Pass Accuracy: 76
Short Pass Speed: 78
Long Pass Accuracy: 81
Long Pass Speed: 78
Shot Accuracy: 65
Shot Power: 78
Shot Technique: 65
Free Kick Accuracy: 69
Curling: 70
Header: 78
Jump: 80
Technique: 73
Aggression: 69
Mentality/Tenacity: 82
Goalkeeper Skills: 50
Team Work: 83

Injury Tolerance: B
Form/Condition/Fitness: 6
Weak Foot Accuracy: 4
Weak Foot Frequency: 4
Consistency: 7

SPECIAL ABILITIES:
*Sliding
*Covering


INFO:

Henning Berg's career took off in Norway's match at Wembley in 1992 or 1993, I can't remember which year
icon_e_confused.gif
He kept England's left side quiet as a RB and after the game he was picked up by Blackburn. At the time Walker was heavily involved in the team, and they had a solid foundation for their success later on. David May and hard man Colin Hendry (Scotland's Terry Butcher) made up the central defence so Henning had to settle for the RB slot. And he did that very effectively, culminating with a title in 95.

As a Utd supporter I always hated watching the games vs Blackburn. Although Berg didn't have any extreme physical qualities, he was such an astute reader of the game that he mostly made up for his lack of pace by anticipating his opponent's moves. That was always the case when he came upon Giggs. At the time Giggs was at his best, his combination of pace and skill was unparalleled in the league, but Henning always countered it with standing off and forcing Giggs to make his move. Only to later block him.

He was very much a success at Blackburn and at the NT team too. Berg and Ronny Johnsen complemented each other perfectly, Henning would anticipate the opponent's moves and Johnsen with his pace would lap up the rest, making the partnership one of the better in Europe's NTs.

Utd had an eye on him in the late 80's and he even trained with them, but due to his lack of caps didn't get a work permit (things have changed I guess). SAF finally got him in 1997 for a record of 5 million £, the highest transfer fee for a defender at the time. His injuries had robbed him of a bit of pace though, and he wasn't as impressive as with Blackburn. He did win the treble and a lot of other titles, but Johnsen was the preferred choice mostly and he had to play second fiddle to his fellow noggie.

http://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5706

I don't really like laying into Henning as I was quite fond of him, but I question that guy's memory a bit. He didn't look to hot against us with this clumsy attempt at defending and subsequent red card. From 10 seconds in:



EDIT: Combined with the video Skizzo posted earlier, that's twice in one season where errors from Berg helped cost Blackburn the match against Utd.
 
Last edited:
Yet I think that having two more positionally disciplined types is arguably a better way of making a midfield two work against a midfield three. Sure they lose out in the box-to-box energy and runs into the box, but at least they don't give up the gaps and leave the space in behind that, for instance, made Fergie change his approach in Europe.

Alonso isnt going to do too much chasing and closing down.. with juninho in the free role.. petit being the more defensively sound will try marking him leaving alonso vs two.. that where he is screwed..
 
I'm voting for Ronaldo.

Seriously, Tuppet's side contains too many players who aren't at their peaks with those clubs he picked.
 
Agreed. @Tuppet has a inconsistency in tactics. He should revert to 2007/08 team tactics which would suit his players better.

Aye. That tactical inconsistency, combined with his numerical disadvantage in the middle of the park could prove costly. As excellent as he was, Xabi just didn't have the legs to play that frenetic box to box style that Keane/Scholes did, and if he tries then Juninho will have a field day in the space he leaves open.
 
Alonso isnt going to do too much chasing and closing down.. with juninho in the free role.. petit being the more defensively sound will try marking him leaving alonso vs two.. that where he is screwed..
I am sure United fans know it better than most that you don't need to just run around to be defensively solid. Carrick has shown it and xabi is very good defensive player. He would not leave any holes and make up for lack of legs (which is overstated btw) by sound positioning. This mid is definitely better defensively than Keane Scholes.
 
I am sure United fans know it better than most that you don't need to just run around to be defensively solid. Carrick has shown it and xabi is very good defensive player. He would not leave any holes and make up for lack of legs (which is overstated btw) by sound positioning. This mid is definitely better defensively than Keane Scholes.

You certainly need alot of running around to maintain defensive solidity if these are your tactics though:

My team is playing a fast paced 4-4-2, which is based on the Manchester united-99 blueprint

The heart of that team was the two box to box midfielders. Your pair just aren't well-suited to replicating that, and if your team is really trying to follow the Utd 99 blueprint then they will leave gaps that Juninho will exploit.

If the two midfielders aren't playing box to box in the manner of Keane/Scholes, its a serious stretch to describe it as a Utd 99-type set up, and that has consequences further up the pitch, where Yorke and Cole get far more isolated than they did playing with Keane/Scholes.
 
Fair enough, when I compared my midfield to Keane - Shcoles , I meant as a creator destroyer combo, while both being technically good. If you like you could think of this as Alonso - Mascherano midfield, just that on PL form, Petit was much better (and technically sound) than Masch.

Tbf he clarified here what he meant, alonso and Modric also ran the midfield for real Madrid one of the fastest counter attacking sides in recent memory so don't see an issue with his pairing.
 
I agree with @dannymc1309's points above regarding the Cole/Yorke combo. They were both excellent before joining United, but what is proposed in the write-up isn't true, IMO. They're not a classic creator/finisher combo. In fact, the Cole/Yorke partnership at United was a rather unorthodox one in many ways, and it was by no means obvious that they would work that well together before we saw them click.

So, while it may not be a crucial point – it's not a moot one either. Unless we just surrender and admit that nobody is actually able to regard the pair of them, together, as anything but the United combo...
 
If I remember correctly, Kewell himself fancied playing on the right and after his move to Liverpool, he did start a lot of games from the right. Never impressed me much from there.
 
I agree with @dannymc1309's points above regarding the Cole/Yorke combo. They were both excellent before joining United, but what is proposed in the write-up isn't true, IMO. They're not a classic creator/finisher combo. In fact, the Cole/Yorke partnership at United was a rather unorthodox one in many ways, and it was by no means obvious that they would work that well together before we saw them click.

So, while it may not be a crucial point – it's not a moot one either. Unless we just surrender and admit that nobody is actually able to regard the pair of them, together, as anything but the United combo...

He has a clear advantage that both of them proved together that they could work together so I am not sure you can make that sort of argument. Only issue with Cole Yorke is if you dock points for them not being the United version
 
Old thread from here where the general consensus was that Ronaldo was actually better for us on the left wing:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ronaldo-evra.225322/

And highlights from the match that preceded the thread, with Ronaldo scoring twice from free kicks and going on the outside of their defence before assisting Carrick.



My bigger problem isn't Ronaldo but Kewell, particularly given Juninho's preference to drift right. I think they could clash a fair bit, unnecessarily. And then there's the point that the swap was an admission of Cole having Ronaldo in his pocket, so I would expect him to do likewise with anyone else... Except that I think Juninho and Cristiano would be really sweet and be too much for him.

Kewell will make much more of an impact at the other end, Ronaldo and Juninho would ensure you can beat Cole at the other end, and if you are beating him on both ends I fancy you to score a few, Rio or no Rio. As it is, you are playing to his defensive strengths.
 
If I remember correctly, Kewell himself fancied playing on the right and after his move to Liverpool, he did start a lot of games from the right. Never impressed me much from there.

His peak was defintely at Leeds. After a decent first season at Liverpool he was increasingly injury prone and largely shite whatever his role.
 
I'm voting for Ronaldo.

Seriously, Tuppet's side contains too many players who aren't at their peaks with those clubs he picked.
You really did not need the white text, I would understand your voting for Ronaldo. But I wonder which player you think is far from his peak in my side ?
 
Points at first glance:

- Don't like Ronaldo/Kewell on the opposite wings of where they did the damage at stated clubs
- Campbell is down as Spurs (who knows why when there is an Ars slot available) but then it's mentioned that he was part of the he invincibles side which can't be taken into account
- Cole and Yorkes pre united goal records and performances have been mentioned which is fine, however there is also the final point of this section saying about the best partnership, again this is not something that would have been known at this point and can't be considered. Cole and Yorke are different too the usual partnership where they thrived on a mental connection it seemed, which is something we couldn't guess to have happened before we actually played them together at United. We can sometimes guess that a partnership could be effective by saying the playing styles compliment each other well (or we think they would aka Ferdinand and Hernandez could work in no bit man little man combination, however there was more to it than simply matching up styles with Yorke/Cole which is why I'd struggle with judging them on a partnership in this criteria.

Everyone expected it, they had a similar joie-de-vivre so were expected to get on well, and stylistically they looked exactly like what each other needed. I find this point completely daft tbh. It actually reminds me of myself holding my head listening to James Whale banging on about how what we really needed was a Bastituta type to conque Europe and that signing Yorke -who he admitted was great- wasn't really going to cut it at that level. Yet everyone expected him and Cole to get the best out of each other, which wasn't anywhere near as clear with a Batistuta-Cole pairing. It raged for hours and I guess there was an element of him being a prick to get people phoning in, but I distinctly remember listening to all that and thinkign he was talking out of his arse and they would be fecking great together.
 
Except that I think Juninho and Cristiano would be really sweet and be too much for him.
Good shout that, having Cristiano on his favoured side and have Juninho stretch wide occupying Cole while Cristiano cuts inside, some sort of interchanging is surely possible there and that way you won't have Cole get a lot of control of the area. Also the weaker side of the CB pair. Decent penetration there for sure.
 
I agree with @dannymc1309's points above regarding the Cole/Yorke combo. They were both excellent before joining United, but what is proposed in the write-up isn't true, IMO. They're not a classic creator/finisher combo. In fact, the Cole/Yorke partnership at United was a rather unorthodox one in many ways, and it was by no means obvious that they would work that well together before we saw them click.

So, while it may not be a crucial point – it's not a moot one either. Unless we just surrender and admit that nobody is actually able to regard the pair of them, together, as anything but the United combo...
I kind of agree, what I wanted to say with that line is Cole was a poacher in Newcastle and scored tons of goals, while Yorke had played in wings before playing central and was comfortable outside the box in Aston villa. There was definitely chance that this partnership would not have worked, as some excellent partnerships don't sometimes, but it did. But sure I am not arguing that you take their mental telepathy for granted, them 2 were the 2 of the best strikers in the league before they joined United and with the service they are getting from Anderton, Nani and Xabi I dont see how they wont score.
 
I'm voting for Ronaldo.

Seriously, Tuppet's side contains too many players who aren't at their peaks with those clubs he picked.
Which Tuppet players aren't at their peak though? Cole hit his most electric form at Newcastle, Yorke was much the same at Villa as at United, Berg was 28 before he left Blackburn, etc. Fair point on Southall who was a bit of a chubster by the early-to-mid 1990s.
 
I agree with @dannymc1309's points above regarding the Cole/Yorke combo. They were both excellent before joining United, but what is proposed in the write-up isn't true, IMO. They're not a classic creator/finisher combo. In fact, the Cole/Yorke partnership at United was a rather unorthodox one in many ways, and it was by no means obvious that they would work that well together before we saw them click.

So, while it may not be a crucial point – it's not a moot one either. Unless we just surrender and admit that nobody is actually able to regard the pair of them, together, as anything but the United combo...

I disagree, the main problem with Cole was he didn't seem to click with Ole or Teddy (who worked best with each other IMO). And he missed as many chaances as he finished, that too, it was infuriating.
 
If I remember correctly, Kewell himself fancied playing on the right and after his move to Liverpool, he did start a lot of games from the right. Never impressed me much from there.
Certainly prime Kewell for me is him tearing down the left for Leeds. That said, he would probably have spent a lot of time on the right flank had that prime come a decade later.
 
I disagree, the main problem with Cole was he didn't seem to click with Ole or Teddy (who worked best with each other IMO). And he missed as many chaances as he finished, that too, it was infuriating.
Cole became very wasteful post-Newcastle which is why it's odd we seem to be having these discussions about his peak.
 
Certainly prime Kewell for me is him tearing down the left for Leeds. That said, he would probably have spent a lot of time on the right flank had that prime come a decade later.

I blame Ribery and Robben, suddenly everyone seems to think it's best to have wingers cutting in onto their stronger foot.
 
I blame Ribery and Robben, suddenly everyone seems to think it's best to have wingers cutting in onto their stronger foot.
A lot depends on the full-back behind them. Gallas is hardly the sort of overlapper who makes that work.