All Time Premier League Fantasy Draft - R1: Skizzo/Pat vs Tuppet

[Cal?]

You really did not need the white text, I would understand your voting for Ronaldo. But I wonder which player you think is far from his peak in my side ?

Personally I don't think Newcastle Cole and Villa Yorke can be the partnership they became at United. Cole took years at United to build up his link up play with his team mates. Back in his Barcode days, he was a pure finisher who I don't see being able to interlink with Yorke like he did in 98/99.

Also, Southall in his PL days is probably one of the weakest keepers in the draft.

 

[Tuppet]

08/09 Xabi is the best midfielder on the field. He was so good and influential that season, unbelievable. And the way he left after that season, beautiful

. My strikers and wingers are really going to thrive with his long range passing.

 

[Cal?]

I blame Ribery and Robben, suddenly everyone seems to think it's best to have wingers cutting in onto their stronger foot.

Well, Ronaldo on the left and Messi starting out on the right seems to have started that trend.

 

[Skizzo]

the service they are getting from Anderton, Nani and Xabi I dont see how they wont score.

My questions here I guess are to try and clear up the confusion a bit from hearing different things in your midfield. I still don't know how you're trying to play, because you say like United 99 with Xabi as a deep playmaker and petit box to box. Then you say more like Liverpool with petit now covering Xabi. Giving your midfield mixed messages won't help their cause.

Xabi is playing as your deep playmaker, but to get the through balls and service you need to supply the front two, he's gonna need to squeeze up field. While he's capable of doing that, he also doesn't have the pace or mobility to chase back to cover that space that Juninho will now be in.

In regards to Nani, I'm surprised how he hasn't been brought up more. People saying Ronaldo is ill suited to playing on the left, even though he often played there, and will be free roaming anyway like he did at his most dangerous. Nani was incredibly inconsistent on the left. The problem we had was both him and Valencia were in form...but only on the right. Nani had flashes while playing on the left, but far from the kind of form you highlight and expect him to provide here. I'm also curious on those assist stats, how many weren't in the premier league...but I'll leave that for now.

As for cole and yorke, it's a tricky one. You pick them as a pairing, but play them prior to being teammates. Taking their future incarnations and partnerships into account is somewhat unavoidable, but then where do you start to draw the line with that?

 

[Tuppet]

Personally I don't think Newcastle Cole and Villa Yorke can be the partnership they became at United. Cole took years at United to build up his link up play with his team mates. Back in his Barcode days, he was a pure finisher who I don't see being able to interlink with Yorke like he did in 98/99.

Also, Southall in his PL days is probably one of the weakest keepers in the draft.

Well, you might not like there partnership, both are at their peak though. Southall is not the weakest keeper, in his 5 seasons he has a very respectable record, and he was behind a quite meh defense, still setting consecutive clean sheet record of that time.

 

[Cal?]

Well, you might not like there partnership, both are at their peak though. Southall is not the weakest keeper, in his 5 seasons he has a very respectable record, and he was behind a quite meh defense, still setting consecutive clean sheet record of that time.

That's what I meant, Newcastle Andy Cole was probably better than his first couple of seasons at United (when he basically cost us the title in 1995 against West Ham and allowed Shearer not to do a Gerrard).

Anyway, I just think Skizzo's defence edges this one slightly whilst you have the better CMs. Whatever my reason for voting Skizzo, most people will think I voted after seeing Cristiano Ronaldo in his line-up, so I thought I may as well say it.

 

[Skizzo]

Well, you might not like there partnership, both are at their peak though. Southall is not the weakest keeper, in his 5 seasons he has a very respectable record, and he was behind a quite meh defense, still setting consecutive clean sheet record of that time.

In only one season did Everton put up a positive goal difference. He conceded on average 1.3 goals a game....he even got confronted by fans.

I'm a big fan of big nev, plugged him in a previous draft because in his prime he was incredible. He's far from it here though.

 

[Tuppet]

My questions here I guess are to try and clear up the confusion a bit from hearing different things in your midfield. I still don't know how you're trying to play, because you say like United 99 with Xabi as a deep playmaker and petit box to box. Then you say more like Liverpool with petit now covering Xabi. Giving your midfield mixed messages won't help their cause.

Xabi is playing as your deep playmaker, but to get the through balls and service you need to supply the front two, he's gonna need to squeeze up field. While he's capable of doing that, he also doesn't have the pace or mobility to chase back to cover that space that Juninho will now be in.

In regards to Nani, I'm surprised how he hasn't been brought up more. People saying Ronaldo is ill suited to playing on the left, even though he often played there, and will be free roaming anyway like he did at his most dangerous. Nani was incredibly inconsistent on the left. The problem we had was both him and Valencia were in form...but only on the right. Nani had flashes while playing on the left, but far from the kind of form you highlight and expect him to provide here. I'm also curious on those assist stats, how many weren't in the premier league...but I'll leave that for now.

As for cole and yorke, it's a tricky one. You pick them as a pairing, but play them prior to being teammates. Taking their future incarnations and partnerships into account is somewhat unavoidable, but then where do you start to draw the line with that?

Alright I'll try to make it really clear, Xabi here is a deep lying playmaker, but still defensively solid (More Carrick than Pirlo), Petit is all action midfielder, defensively astute, technically sound, plenty of stamina. Xabi would mostly stay disciplined and spray passes around with his fantastic passing (it does not mean he will never go beyond his half, but he would not be as aggresive as scholes), Petit would run up and down the pitch, as his kind of midfielders do all the time. He would carry the ball, when there is an opportunity, but would come down and win it from Juninho as well, when needed. I see that the united-99 side blueprint line is causing the confusion here, but this kind of pairing is proven and is used all the time, for example Xabi - Khedira partnership in Real.

 

[antohan]

A lot depends on the full-back behind them. Gallas is hardly the sort of overlapper who makes that work.

Exactly. You can't expect Gallas to do a Lahm and, while Bridge was pretty good in his prime, the setup upfront is too demanding of him. Particularly when he already has his work cut out shutting out a key source of danger/service.

 

[diarm]

2 very good sides. I feel the midfield pairs are very evenly matched and in Cole and Ferdinand, Tuppet has 2 of the stand out defenders in Premier League history.

I do feel though, that Tuppet's side has more weaknesses than Skizzo's. As good as Berg was, I can see him really struggling against the pace and trickery of Ronaldo and with Koscielny beside Rio, I think they really lack a hard edged, stopper style defender who will stand up physically and aerially to both Saha and particularly Ronaldo.

Whether Nani and Anderton can produce the consistency in delivery that Yorke and Cole would need is also up for debate. I think they would be effective, especially Nani on the left with Ashley Cole overlapping but I can't help but feel the outstanding player on the field would be the difference between these two sides.

Team Skizzo for a narrow win.

 

[Tuppet]

On the other hand, I dont really rate Skizzo/Pat attacking threat apart from Cristiano. We all like to romanticize what a striker Saha could have been, but in truth he was very average. Scoring about 28 goals in 5 seasons in United, never hitting double figures in any season.

 

[Skizzo]

Alright I'll try to make it really clear, Xabi here is a deep lying playmaker, but still defensively solid (More Carrick than Pirlo), Petit is all action midfielder, defensively astute, technically sound, plenty of stamina. Xabi would mostly stay disciplined and spray passes around with his fantastic passing (it does not mean he will never go beyond his half, but he would not be as aggresive as scholes), Petit would run up and down the pitch, as his kind of midfielders do all the time. He would carry the ball, when there is an opportunity, but would come down and win it from Juninho as well, when needed. I see that the united-99 side blueprint line is causing the confusion here, but this kind of pairing is proven and is used all the time, for example Xabi - Khedira partnership in Real.

They didn't play as a midfield two though. They had modric also who is another workhorse. At Liverpool there was Gerard ahead of him and Mascherano. In a midfield two, it's just one step too many when asking them to do the work of teams that used a midfield three.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I disagree, the main problem with Cole was he didn't seem to click with Ole or Teddy (who worked best with each other IMO). And he missed as many chaances as he finished, that too, it was infuriating.

I'm not sure what you disagree with. They clearly were not a classic combo (which the manager himself has conceded). And it was clearly not a given that they would become such a success story for us.

Getting Yorke in was in one sense a fairly obvious move on Fergie's part, given his overall quality, but he wasn't necessarily purchased with the specific “partner-for-Andy-Cole” role in mind.

The way they clicked wasn't something Fergie could have predicted based on the pair's respective qualities up until the point when they were signed. The latter being the main point here.

 

[antohan]

Well, Ronaldo on the left and Messi starting out on the right seems to have started that trend.

We've always had wide players who cut inside onto their stronger foot (Waddle, Conti...) but those two had played their entire careers on the "right" flank and symultaneously swapped and produced a better result. Everyone seems to have suddenly decided it's better by dedault.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Saha is difficult to rate, when fit he is one of the best strikers in the draft but the problem is, he never was apart from that period in 06/07.....

 

[Moby]

The way they clicked wasn't something Fergie could have predicted based on the pair's respective qualities up until the point when they were signed. The latter being the main point here.

But the fact is that they did combine perfectly, so there's no reason to think they won't here, it's not like they changed their playing style or anything between the move.

 

[Skizzo]

On the other hand, I dont really rate Skizzo/Pat attacking threat apart from Cristiano. We all like to romanticize what a striker Saha could have been, but in truth he was very average. Scoring about 28 goals in 5 seasons in United, never hitting double figures in any season.

You can't hype up your strikers all round game, then discount the same for Saha. His goals per game ratio is also pretty similar to yorke...plus he links up incredibly well with Ronaldo, while both being on the actual team they played together on.

 

[antohan]

In only one season did Everton put up a positive goal difference. He conceded on average 1.3 goals a game....he even got confronted by fans.

I'm a big fan of big nev, plugged him in a previous draft because in his prime he was incredible. He's far from it here though.

Everton turning to shit had more to do with than Southall doing so. I agree he wasn't at his best, but still a very decent keeper.

 

[Cal?]

We've always had wide players who cut inside onto their stronger foot (Waddle, Conti...) but those two had played their entire careers on the "right" flank and symultaneously swapped and produced a better result. Everyone seems to have suddenly decided it's better by dedault.

Ronaldo did use to play on the right, but I've never seen Messi start a game on the left. Then, Ribery & Robben and everyone thinks the reverse winger is the only way to go... Ignoring the first 2 could probably play anywhere (except Messi in goal) and make it work, and the latter 2 are amongst the best in their generation...

 

[Tuppet]

They didn't play as a midfield two though. They had modric also who is another workhorse. At Liverpool there was Gerard ahead of him and Mascherano. In a midfield two, it's just one step too many when asking them to do the work of teams that used a midfield three.

Not really before Real Signed up Modric, Xabi played in Midfield 2, with Ozil as AM. Even after Modric is signed, Modric and Xabi played in fair few games as double pivot. Petit always played in midfield 2.

 

[antohan]

Alright I'll try to make it really clear, Xabi here is a deep lying playmaker, but still defensively solid (More Carrick than Pirlo), Petit is all action midfielder, defensively astute, technically sound, plenty of stamina. Xabi would mostly stay disciplined and spray passes around with his fantastic passing (it does not mean he will never go beyond his half, but he would not be as aggresive as scholes), Petit would run up and down the pitch, as his kind of midfielders do all the time. He would carry the ball, when there is an opportunity, but would come down and win it from Juninho as well, when needed. I see that the united-99 side blueprint line is causing the confusion here, but this kind of pairing is proven and is used all the time, for example Xabi - Khedira partnership in Real.

I think Gio was spot on about your pairing being more defensively sound and allaying those concerns but, by the same token, they won't contribute as much upfront.

That's one of the things that doesn't quite sit right with me about your team.

 

[sajeev]

voted for@Tuppet based on the formations and write-up.

btw which Ronaldo is being considered here? is it the 2006-07 one or the 2007-09 one? either ways i don't see the rest of the team supporting him as much as would be required to get the best out of him especially the latter version

 

[Skizzo]

Everton turning to shit had more to do with than Southall doing so. I agree he wasn't at his best, but still a very decent keeper.

Yeah their results were definitely not down to him solely, but he certainly wasn't the keeper he once was. On the flip side, we have a stronger defense, plus a keeper who has had his entire prime in the premier league, winning multiple golden glove awards in the process. Plus a wonderful shampoo endorsement

 

[Tuppet]

You can't hype up your strikers all round game, then discount the same for Saha. His goals per game ratio is also pretty similar to yorke...plus he links up incredibly well with Ronaldo, while both being on the actual team they played together on.

I don't agree there, I am not laying on him just for this draft, I sincerely never rated him as highly as other fans do. Yorke when in Aston was definitely more prolific in both goals and assists.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I don't quite like the Petit/Alonso partnership in a 4-4-2 and think Arteta, Silva and Juninho has more balance to it and would probably win the midfield battle with that extra body. Bridge-Desailly-Sol-Gallas is the best defense in the draft and I think the rule of the weakest link applies to Tuppets defense.

Offensively I think it is very even where Ronaldo carries a lot of weight on his shoulders, but he's up against a full back he should torment all game and Koscielny isn't nearly at the level of Ferdinand/Desailly/Campbell.

 

[crappycraperson]

You can't hype up your strikers all round game, then discount the same for Saha. His goals per game ratio is also pretty similar to yorke...plus he links up incredibly well with Ronaldo, while both being on the actual team they played together on.

Saha's criticism is fair IMO. His best season is supposed to be 2006/7 when he scored 8 goals in 24 league matches.

 

[Moby]

Plus a wonderful shampoo endorsement

Among all the talk yesterday of those who missed out - this guy would have been in my team, if only for adverts.

 

[Skizzo]

I don't agree there, I am not laying on him just for this draft, I sincerely never rated him as highly as other fans do. Yorke when in Aston was definitely more prolific in both goals and assists.

Just because you don't rate him as other do, doesn't mean it's true.

They certainly won't be getting the service you think they will be either. Alonso spraying passes from deep, I'd edge our defense aerially with Campbell and desailly. Plus with our defense sitting where it is, there won't be space to exploit. You seem to forget the monster that Gilberto was.

Nani was incredibly inconsistent on the left.

Plus with your midfield two not being dynamic and playing deeper, you have too much of a gap between them and yorke cole

 

[antohan]

On the other hand, I dont really rate Skizzo/Pat attacking threat apart from Cristiano. We all like to romanticize what a striker Saha could have been, but in truth he was very average. Scoring about 28 goals in 5 seasons in United, never hitting double figures in any season.

He was great. Look up Benzema's stats, not much different and in a league were it's easier to score. I suppose in a decade statsos will consider him not that good.

 

[crappycraperson]

Nani is indeed better on the right than left for me.

 

[sajeev]

oh and no one has mentioned, Nani is going to give Gallas nightmares and Skizzo's team could be down to 10 men

 

[Skizzo]

Saha's criticism is fair IMO. His best season is supposed to be 2006/7 when he scored 8 goals in 24 league matches.

His all round game is suited to what we need him to do. He has fantastic technique and control. His pace and movement means he can't be left to wander, and we already know he can link with Ronaldo....and they're both assigned to the team they did it with. No need to give them the benefit of the doubt like we do with yorke and Cole in this instance.

 

[antohan]

Ronaldo did use to play on the right, but I've never seen Messi start a game on the left. Then, Ribery & Robben and everyone thinks the reverse winger is the only way to go... Ignoring the first 2 could probably play anywhere (except Messi in goal) and make it work, and the latter 2 are amongst the best in their generation...

That's my point and why I blame them and not previous reverse wingers.

 

[Skizzo]

oh and no one has mentioned, Nani is going to give Gallas nightmares and Skizzo's team could be down to 10 men

Please tell me that isn't a serious comment?

The most inconsistent winger, on his worst side, against a strong defensive full back?

Pat already highlighted Berg having a torrid time against a tricky winger, and giving a penalty and red card away in an actual game. And that wasn't even up against Ronaldo.

 

[Skizzo]

@Aldo Bullard deserves to make a draft appearance. Purely for the antics

 

[sajeev]

Please tell me that isn't a serious comment?

The most inconsistent winger, on his worst side, against a strong defensive full back?

Pat already highlighted Berg having a torrid time against a tricky winger, and giving a penalty and red card away in an actual game. And that wasn't even up against Ronaldo.

i know you are managing a team but take your blinkers off. Nani actually played against Gallas and did torment him playing from the left.

And your definition of Ronaldo as a tricky winger is debatable considering at his peak for United he was more of an efficient turbo-speed merchant with a great ability to lead and finish attacks.

 

[Skizzo]

i know you are managing a team but take your blinkers off. Nani actually played against Gallas and did torment him playing from the left.

And your definition of Ronaldo as a tricky winger is debatable considering at his peak for United he was more of an efficient turbo-speed merchant with a great ability to lead and finish attacks.

And that pace and direct running is exactly what berg struggled with when he got a red card and gave a penalty away.

 

[antohan]

I'm not sure what you disagree with. They clearly were not a classic combo (which the manager himself has conceded). And it was clearly not a given that they would become such a success story for us.

Getting Yorke in was in one sense a fairly obvious move on Fergie's part, given his overall quality, but he wasn't necessarily purchased with the specific “partner-for-Andy-Cole” role in mind.

The way they clicked wasn't something Fergie could have predicted based on the pair's respective qualities up until the point when they were signed. The latter being the main point here.

What you've just written is exactly what I disagree with. I thought he was an ideal partner who would blend well with him and form a proper partnership. Both with Ole and Teddy he needed to be more of a centreforward/hold up man which I never found to be his forte, while clearly something Yorke was excellent at, while having all the attributes of a support striker who could build up play. With Yorke we pretty much got everything we were missing, and which Cole needed next to him, while not losing much of what Teddy contributed (and as a result, jointly, more than making up for what Ole contributed).

There was absolutely no doubt in my mind he was signed to finally get the best out of Cole, not because Yorke-Teddy or Yorke-Ole was in the cards (although the latter was quite compelling if Cole somehow didn't seize the chance). If I thought that, I'm sure SAF had an even clearer perspective on it.

 

[antohan]

Among all the talk yesterday of those who missed out - this guy would have been in my team, if only for adverts.

I would have signed him as my 12th man, chief cheerleader and overall good egg to raise morale in the camp. Not a bad player either.

 

[antohan]

@Skizzo, any specific reason why you have Desailly on the right of Campbell and not the other way around?