All-Time Fantasy Draft

[Brwned]

Not a curve ball at all, was bound to go very soon.

Curveball in terms of my comments earlier! Was just hoping to keep all you sneaky buggers away from one of the first genuine footballing superstars. You know, throw you off the scent. Good luck trying to defend against that kind of wingplay...

Fergus'son: 1. Beckenbauer 2. Eusebio 3. Didi 4. Krol 5. Zanetti
DanNistelrooy: Cristiano Ronaldo 2. Ronaldinho 3. Nesta, 4. Gascoigne 5. Makelele
KM: 1. Messi 2. Scirea 3. Bozsik, 4. Sammer 5. Nedved
Thisistheone: 1. Maradona 2. B.Charlton 3. Eto'o, 4. Cannavaro 5. Coluna
NM: 1. Pele 2. Neeskens 3. Passarella 4. Boniek 5. Thuram
Cutch: 1. Best 2. Van Basten 3. Robson 4. R Baggio 5. Charles
Brwned: 1. Di Stéfano 2. Keane 3. Falcão 4. Giggs 5. Matthews
MJJ: 1. Duncan Edwards 2. Garrincha 3. Muller 4. Luis Suárez 5. Meazza
JakeC: 1. Ronaldo 2. Maldini 3. Deschamps 4. Gento
mightberight: 1. Ferenc Puskas 2. Stoichkov 3. Breitner 4. Jairzinho
EDogen: 1. Cruyff 2. Moore 3. Redondo 4. Figo
Gio: 1. Platini 2. Xavi 3. Rivaldo 4. Kohler
Antohan: 1. Laudrup 2. Rijkaard 3. Iniesta 4. Facchetti
Stobzilla: 1. Zidane 2. Yashin (Russia) 3. Scholes 4. Souness
Isotope: 1. Zico 2. L. Matthäus 3. Santamaríá 4. Hansen
paceme: 1. Figueroa 2. Baresi 3. Voronin 4. Masopust

 

[Fergus' son]

Oh right, I get it.

Luckily for me I just invested in some top quality fullbacks!

 

[Moby]

Facchetti will be waiting to receive Sir Matthews.

 

[Theon]

MJJ has so much offensive talent there.

 

[Moby]

Oh right, I get it.

Luckily for me I just invested in some top quality fullbacks!

Which brings me to the fact that I have always found Ruud Krol a difficult player to judge. Was he a defensive fullback? Someone like a left sided Thuram? I find it hard to fit him in modern systems.

 

[antohan]

Taking Guiseppi Meazza.

Question, should I go 4-3-3 with him and garrincha up top or 4-4-2?

Garrincha in a 4-4-2 makes no sense to me at all.

Muller is obviously your man in the box, but Meazza is not a Garrincha equivalent for the other flank.

I really don't know what you were thinking here. I can only see this work as a 2-3-1 with Suarez and Edwards being the two. Have no idea how that would work as most of your players have not really played that way.

Maybe the crux is Garrincha not making sense in a 4-4-2, you may want to challenge that. Off the top of my head, he is wasted.

 

[Fortitude]

Cannot believe Matthews lasted so long.

The quality of picks has gone up during the latest run.

Can just imagine all the cursing going on as an intended pick is snatched by somebody else!

 

[MJJ]

Garrincha in a 4-4-2 makes no sense to me at all.

Muller is obviously your man in the box, but Meazza is not a Garrincha equivalent for the other flank.

I really don't know what you were thinking here. I can only see this work as a 2-3-1 with Suarez and Edwards being the two. Have no idea how that would work as most of your players have not really played that way.

Maybe the crux is Garrincha not making sense in a 4-4-2, you may want to challenge that. Off the top of my head, he is wasted.

It would have been a 4-2-4 more than a 4-4-2. This is how I am thinking of lining up now.

Meazza-Muller-Garrincha

Edwards-Cm/am-Saurez.

Defense

Makes sense?

Or was thinking a 4-2-3-1, not sure.

 

[Fergus' son]

Which brings me to the fact that I have always found Ruud Krol a difficult player to judge. Was he a defensive fullback? Someone like a left sided Thuram? I find it hard to fit him in modern systems.

Such a fantastic all round player, it's fair to say he can fit into more or less any system just fine.

I wouldn't say he much different stylistically from Fachetti personally but I'm sure you have some rebuttal at the ready.

 

[Theon]

It would have been a 4-2-4 more than a 4-4-2. This is how I am thinking of lining up now.

Meazza-Muller-Garrincha

Edwards-Cm/am-Saurez.

Defense

Makes sense?

You really don't need an AM at all.

 

[Fortitude]

Garrincha in a 4-4-2 makes no sense to me at all.

Muller is obviously your man in the box, but Meazza is not a Garrincha equivalent for the other flank.

I really don't know what you were thinking here. I can only see this work as a 2-3-1 with Suarez and Edwards being the two. Have no idea how that would work as most of your players have not really played that way.

Maybe the crux is Garrincha not making sense in a 4-4-2, you may want to challenge that. Off the top of my head, he is wasted.

Concur. Garrincha is a forward, not a midfielder.

Never think of Garrincha as a 'winger' he's a wing-forward, and forward is the operative word there, he'll not do a jot of defensive work for you nor does he have the stamina or interest in doing so. He's probably the most unreliable great you could pick to do a two-way role even!

Never, ever put him in a 4-4-2.

4-2-4, 4-3-3 or some other system where he is a forward is your only option.

 

[Moby]

Your best bet is a 4-4-2 now with Garrincha on one flank and Meazza playing off Muller, which I am not sure will work in the first place.

Edit. More of a 4-2-4.

 

[Fergus' son]

Taking Guiseppi Meazza.

Question, should I go 4-3-3 with him and garrincha up top or 4-4-2?

433, with him and Meazza as inside forwards.

Pick your WBs carefully in order to to suit them best.

I wouldnt go with a pure AM either, just an all round midfielder would be best.

 

[MJJ]

You really don't need an AM at all.

I might go 4-3-2-1, so will either push saurez up or will get another attacking mid. Am a bit confuse now which formation will get the best out of these players never seen most of them play.

Concur. Garrincha is a forward, not a midfielder.

Never think of Garrincha as a 'winger' he's a wing-forward, and forward is the operative word there, he'll not do a jot of defensive work for you nor does he have the stamina or interest in doing so. He's probably the most unreliable great you could pick to do a two-way role even!

Never, ever put him in a 4-4-2.

4-2-4, 4-3-3 or some other system where he is a forward is your only option.

I dont want my wingers to defend, thats why I have edwards and saurez in CM who can both play a deeper role and chose garrincha and meazza as my wingers.

 

[Fortitude]

I might go 4-3-2-1, so will either push saurez up or will get another attacking mid. Am a bit confuse now which formation will get the best out of these players never seen most of them play.



I dont want my wingers to defend, thats why I have edwards and saurez in CM who can both play a deeper role and chose garrincha and meazza as my wingers.

You want Garrincha right up on his opposing defender(s). He should be seeing the ball frequently and put in a team that enables him to just go at his men time and time again.

You've a curious selection. Optimizing them all is going to be difficult.

 

[MJJ]

Your best bet is a 4-4-2 now with Garrincha on one flank and Meazza playing off Muller, which I am not sure will work in the first place.

Edit. More of a 4-2-4.

Why not?

433, with him and Meazza as inside forwards.

Pick your WBs carefully in order to to suit them best.

I would go with a pure AM either, just an all round midfielder would be best.

Thanks, I was thinking of picking fullbacks with one being a good defender while the other stretches the play but you say wingbacks so will that be a wrong approach?

I think my attacking players can emulate barca's 4-3-3(messi-villa/henry-pedro) so was figuring to set them up like that.

 

[MJJ]

You want Garrincha right up on his opposing defender(s). He should be seeing the ball frequently and put in a team that enables him to just go at his men time and time again.

You've a curious selection. Optimizing them all is going to be difficult.

Thanks a lot. Thats mostly due to me not knowing the modern equivalent for most of these players, so my team gelling might be hard.

 

[antohan]

Cannot believe Matthews lasted so long.

The quality of picks has gone up during the latest run.

Can just imagine all the cursing going on as an intended pick is snatched by somebody else!

A lot of the dip is down to the country restriction, which is what makes it fascinating. There's a lot of holding fire so as to not rule out other options and you end up having some very strange picks.

It's not surprising the turn of the tide has happened at the top end, they've had the initiative from the off by being able to bag the biggest vote-winners, then the rest tried to keep up, then they got the vote winners elsewhere, catch up again...

Now that dynamic is starting to break down, but if anything it has proven Polaroid was right (and I was wrong) that the best way to run this is to start from 1, turn at the bottom for the 2nd round and then start at the bottom for the 3rd. Since we always played with less teams -and no funny restrictions- the impact of the draw looked a bit overdone, but here it is quite striking.

 

[Fortitude]

A lot of the dip is down to the country restriction, which is what makes it fascinating. There's a lot of holding fire so as to not rule out other options and you end up having some very strange picks.

It's not surprising the turn of the tide has happened at the top end, they've had the initiative from the off by being able to bag the biggest vote-winners, then the rest tried to keep up, then they got the vote winners elsewhere, catch up again...

Now that dynamic is starting to break down, but if anything it has proven Polaroid was right (and I was wrong) that the best way to run this is to start from 1, turn at the bottom for the 2nd round and then start at the bottom for the 3rd. Since we always played with less teams -and no funny restrictions- the impact of the draw looked a bit overdone, but here it is quite striking.

Are you talking about from a popularity POV or in terms of quality? Because if it's the latter, there's a ridiculous amount of gems out there that have yet to be picked.... although, they're probably not going to win you this competition, but would be a match for any of the sides in it.

I'm guessing you mean the former, because you mentioned obscurity in an earlier post.

 

[Theon]

I don't think being near the top or bottom makes a bit of difference here really with the depth of this draft.

 

[Fortitude]

I don't think being near the top or bottom makes a bit of difference here really with the depth of this draft.

In popularity terms?

 

[Brwned]

I wish I could help but Coluna is a enigma for, can't figure what his best position was or where he likes to play etc, that's why I asked.

You'll be able to figure it out though. Maradona can be put anywhere and he will still be greatly effective so that gives you enough flexibility to find a good system. You'll need to think carefully about your next pick...

Can't agree with this. I've seen Maradona play on either wing and as the sole forward in the team but you absolutely have to be playing him as a #10, IMO.

He is running things, not a problem in that. In fact all three of Coluna, Sir Bobby and Diego can play a deeper role, but I wouldn't like to put them there in a modern formation. I feel to get the best out of them they should be having someone providing more freedom than they would get while playing as a full fledged CM.

I agree to an extent. I think Coluna's perfectly capable of playing as one of the two in a 4231 or something similar, and he'd do his bit defensively, but you'd have to have someone alongside him doing the dirty work.

I meant the old formations may look drastically different compared to the new ones but the difference is far less than is implied IMO.

Agree with this. The main difference between something like Brazil's 424 of the 60s and United's 4231 of the 00s is the defensive responsibility of the attackers - positionally there's not a huge amount of difference between the two. That's why I've no issue with combining those from the 50s and 90s in the same attack - Matthews won't be doing any defending but that's something that goes on in modern football too. A lopsided 4231 with appropriate cover is a perfectly fine way to fit in these wide attackers, whether that's Ronaldo/Ronaldinho of today or Gento/Garrincha of yesteryear.

Defence is another thing altogether though. There's a vast difference in the way defences were setup back in the day compared to now and I don't think you can really get away with picking someone who played his whole career in a WM and playing him in a modern back four.

 

[Moby]

Why not?

Because I am not sure of the abilities and strengths of Meazza to say which system will suit him more.

 

[Theon]

In popularity terms?

In any respect, there's too many good players for it to have any affect.

When I look at the first two picks Zico and Matthaus is as good as any.

 

[Fortitude]

In any respect, there's too many good players for it to have any affect.

For some posters voting on here. Messi, C.Ronaldo or Maradona = vote.

In fact, it'd be an exercise in itself to see how many votes are amassed off the back of those names alone.

As a general point, I don't think you can win this draft without a certain amount of popular players in your side even if your team is of the quality to take on all-comers.

 

[Theon]

For some posters voting on here. Messi, C.Ronaldo or Maradona = vote.

In fact, it'd be an exercise in itself to see how many votes are amassed off the back of those names alone.

As a general point, I don't think you can win this draft without a certain amount of popular players in your side even if your team is of the quality to take on all-comers.

Disagree 100%. Every single one of those 1st picks is a vote winner, except maybe Figueroa who some may not know, but Baresi at number 2 is the ultimate defensive vote winner.

What will win you this draft is your 5th, 6th, 7th picks etc. And managing to deal with the one nation rule well. The pool is so large that all of the first choices are great players IMO.

Agree with the second point though, was having that discussion before about modern vs older but maybe better players.

 

[Theon]

Mightberight just went offline.. Did he PM anyone?

 

[Moby]

I can understand where Fortitude is coming from. As much as one might think that Pele, Cruyff or Beckenbauer showuld win equal votes, I don't think anyone can come close to Messi or Maradona.

 

[Fergus' son]

Why not?



Thanks, I was thinking of picking fullbacks with one being a good defender while the other stretches the play but you say wingbacks so will that be a wrong approach?

I think my attacking players can emulate barca's 4-3-3(messi-villa/henry-pedro) so was figuring to set them up like that.

WBs or FBs, they're all the same to me.

Your idea should work. Trust me when I tell you that the campaigning for and against players gets pretty intense and people will talk a lot of rubbish about your players. If people are saying Garrincha is lazy now, it will be ten times worse later so you'll need a RB that accounts for him. Same with Meazza, see how exactly he would play the role and then pick someone to partner him with. Meazza is likely to always be drifting inside whereas Garrincha will go both ways so make sure there is an attacking threat from the one behind Meazza would be my advice.

 

[antohan]

Thanks a lot. Thats mostly due to me not knowing the modern equivalent for most of these players, so my team gelling might be hard.

I wonder why you ran away with the idea of randomly picking players you haven't seen then. It is VERY difficult to pick old-school players and fit them into a modern formation, you really would need to know an awful lot about them and how they actually played, what sort of partnerships they revelled in, etc. That's what I was getting at earlier with the Edwards pick in the very first round.

I'd suggest you start from what you know and work back from that. I think ultimately it could mean writing off Meazza as a sub TBH. He is not a left wing version of Garrincha, more of an inside forward... and a right-footed one.

I would suggest you make sure you get a proper LW/WF (not a left midfielder) and another MC or DM to turn that into a three subject to the oppo. Whether it is a MC or DM depends on whether you want Suarez in his more advanced Barca role or his deep ball-pinging role at Inter.

 

[MJJ]

Because I am not sure of the abilities and strengths of Meazza to say which system will suit him more.

Oh ok, from what I have read he was an exceptional dribbler who could pick a pass. Started as CF and then played half of his career as a inside forward/winger including the world cup which Italy won.

 

[Fortitude]

Disagree 100%. Every single one of those 1st picks is a vote winner, except maybe Figueroa who some may not know, but Baresi at number 2 is the ultimate defensive vote winner.

What will win you this draft is your 5th, 6th, 7th picks etc. And managing to deal with the one nation rule well. The pool is so large that all of the first choices are great players IMO.

Agree with the second point though, was having that discussion before about modern vs older but maybe better players.

I'm not sure what you're saying you disagree with, as we're both talking about a popularity contest and those three players are the most popular on this part of the forum by far.

Unless folks who frequent the United sub-forum come and vote, you've a runaway horde of votes between those 3 with the other picks getting less; the very definition of a popularity contest.

I'd love for you to be proven right, btw. It would be great to see the best constructed and instructed teams win this or go the furthest.

 

[MJJ]

I wonder why you ran away with the idea of randomly picking players you haven't seen then. It is VERY difficult to pick old-school players and fit them into a modern formation, you really would need to know an awful lot about them and how they actually played, what sort of partnerships they revelled in, etc. That's what I was getting at earlier with the Edwards pick in the very first round.

I'd suggest you start from what you know and work back from that. I think ultimately it could mean writing off Meazza as a sub TBH. He is not a left wing version of Garrincha, more of an inside forward... and a right-footed one.

I would suggest you make sure you get a proper LW/WF (not a left midfielder) and another MC or DM to turn that into a three subject to the oppo. Whether it is a MC or DM depends on whether you want Suarez in his more advanced Barca role or his deep ball-pinging role at Inter.

Because I am researching players(more fun that way) and most of them do something that interest me so I put them in my team. Edwards because of the legend surrounding him. Suarez was brwned suggestion so I went with him.

Garrincha because of that story about him dribbling 4/5 players and then waiting for a defender to arrive before scoring. Meazza because of this:-

"I also saw Pelé playing. He did not achieve Meazza's elegant style of playing. One day, at the Arena, I witnessed him doing something astonishing: he stopped the ball with a bicycle kick, elevating himself two meters from the ground. Then he landed with the ball glued at his foot, dribbled over an astonished defender, and then went on scoring a goal with one of his hallmark shots, sardonic and accurate to the millimeter.

He loved his cabriolet, champagne and women and was the only player on the national team that was allowed to smoke. Meazza was famous for humiliating the best defenders of the era and for sleeping at a brothel the night before a match. With his plush touch on the ball, he would cause panic in the robust defenders from an era where two footed tackles from behind were often waved on. Sometimes he would not get out of bed until his teammates were already done practicing

Muller because he was the ultimate poacher.

Nowadays football doesnt have a lot of characters and it will be boring if I stick with what I know rather than research players and choose which ones I like.

Regarding Meazza, I know he is an inside forward. I posted earlier that I was thinking of having a formation similar to barca hence my top three of muller,garrincha and meazza. I think that can work as its similar to messi,villa and pedro while being an upgrade in some aspects.

so there is a plan in mind but small mistakes can happen.

 

[Fergus' son]

Why the obsession with having a left wing version of Garrincha may I ask?

Garrincha on one and Meazza on the other, not symmetrical but a multi faceted attacks packed with quality. I don't see a great deal wrong with it, especially not enough to consign Meazza to the bench.

 

[MJJ]

A lot of the dip is down to the country restriction, which is what makes it fascinating. There's a lot of holding fire so as to not rule out other options and you end up having some very strange picks.

It's not surprising the turn of the tide has happened at the top end, they've had the initiative from the off by being able to bag the biggest vote-winners, then the rest tried to keep up, then they got the vote winners elsewhere, catch up again...

Now that dynamic is starting to break down, but if anything it has proven Polaroid was right (and I was wrong) that the best way to run this is to start from 1, turn at the bottom for the 2nd round and then start at the bottom for the 3rd. Since we always played with less teams -and no funny restrictions- the impact of the draw looked a bit overdone, but here it is quite striking.

I always feel that is the best way to do a draft.

WBs or FBs, they're all the same to me.

Your idea should work. Trust me when I tell you that the campaigning for and against players gets pretty intense and people will talk a lot of rubbish about your players. If people are saying Garrincha is lazy now, it will be ten times worse later so you'll need a RB that accounts for him. Same with Meazza, see how exactly he would play the role and then pick someone to partner him with. Meazza is likely to always be drifting inside whereas Garrincha will go both ways so make sure there is an attacking threat from the one behind Meazza would be my advice.

Thanks a lot. Will keep that in mind when going for my fullbacks.

 

[Theon]

I'm not sure what you're saying you disagree with, as we're both talking about a popularity contest and those three players are the most popular on this part of the forum by far.

Unless folks who frequent the United sub-forum come and vote, you've a runaway horde of votes between those 3 with the other picks getting less; the very definition of a popularity contest.

I'd love for you to be proven right, btw. It would be great to see the best constructed and instructed teams win this or go the furthest.

I'm disagreeing with the emphasis you are placing on getting one of those three players. They might be more popular but I doubt 90% of the caf think Ronaldo is a better player than Cruyff.

Maradona is the biggest vote winner, but so what, it's not the decisive thing IMO or close to it. Matthaus and Rijkaard are the two best CM's (along with Neeskens ) so that will catch them back up. Not that Zico was a bad 1st pick anyway!

It's easy to see whether you are right by how far those three teams, KM, Dan and Thisistheone, go in the competition.

 

[kps88]

Having a Messi or Maradona in your team means nothing if the rest of your eleven isn't good enough or isn't well balanced. I think the votes will reflect this as well.

 

[antohan]

Are you talking about from a popularity POV or in terms of quality?

Popularity, of course. There's a key issue there as well: the moment you have Messi or Maradona you just write off every Argie, and quite happily. If you don't have them (or CRonaldo for the stats-mad kids, or Pele/Cruyff/Best) you know you need some of those to win it, so have to consider you will want to accommodate them later. There have been several top class players I had in mind which I passed on purely because I would ditch them the moment the popular one was available, so why use an early pick on them? Further, some you worry about picking because it would hinder you from picking someone later due to the nationality rule...

It's not about top vs. bottom and getting first dibs, but the way the top stays one step ahead somewhat, which Polaroid's switch of the starting point for Round 3 would help with.

I do still believe under either scenario the best place to be is close to the middle, as you never get caught by a concerted attack on a position with no chance to respond any time soon.

 

[Theon]

Popularity, of course. There's a key issue there as well: the moment you have Messi or Maradona you just write off every Argie, and quite happily. If you don't have them (or CRonaldo for the stats-mad kids, or Pele/Cruyff/Best) you know you need some of those to win it, so have to consider you will want to accommodate them later. There have been several top class players I had in mind which I passed on purely because I would ditch them the moment the popular one was available, so why use an early pick on them? Further, some you worry about picking because it would hinder you from picking someone later due to the nationality rule...

It's not about top vs. bottom and getting first dibs, but the way the top stays one step ahead somewhat, which Polaroid's switch of the starting point for Round 3 would help with.

I do still believe under either scenario the best place to be is close to the middle, as you never get caught by a concerted attack on a position with no chance to respond any time soon.

This is a good point and something I only realised during the pick just gone.

 

[Jayvin]

Cutch has the makings of a magnificent side here.