All Time Chain Draft - QF2: antohan vs diarm

[antohan]

Since nobody seems to see it, I may as well tell you what the heck is going on:

It's no rocket science, it's simple balls like these really:

Or this against England, which would be a tremendous free kick opportunity:

Has dribbled Roger Byrne, makes Billy Wright look like an amateur and ends up stopped by a Byrne Greco-Roman tussle. Foul, may well have been a peno. Also assisted the first goal.


There's an absolutely massive disparity in

• the defences,
• the space available and
• the ease with which I can get into goalscoring positions.

For all the nonsense about just my defence being great, here are the peak stats for the ones who could be considered "the front four". I've taken the best three consecutive seasons for each, at a meaningful league (which hurts me obviously as Cubillas' would be almost 1 gpg and Abbadie's would just about edge Klinsmann's, but fair nonetheless).

However you choose to interpret that, there's far more parity there than between the defences and the space afforded to my attackers.

diarm earlier very sneakily used an "international goals stat" which means bugger all as there are far more internationals these days, with lots of meaningless qualifying games, etc. Furthermore, back then players who moved abroad (all of Nordahl, Pepe and Abbadie) stopped playing for the NT.

So let's look at something closer to home: World Cup goals.

Whichever way you look at it, the alleged superiority of his forwards is just a myth.

THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM IS A MEDIOCRE BACKLINE PLAYING HIGH UP THE PITCH AGAINST FAR FAR BETTER PLAYERS

 

[Balu]

I do feel slightly bad for voting against diarm. Really love how well he presents his team and huge credit for reuniting Völler and Klinsmann and rating them so highly. It's just so so difficult to look past Anto's defense. And I have a huge soft spot for Goncalves in midfield, after I picked him myself in a previous draft and looked into him a bit deeper.

 

[Balu]

Oh now, I get what you meant with 'getting to 200' . You're one crazy draft junkie ffs.

 

[antohan]

Oh now, I get what you meant with 'getting to 200' . You're one crazy draft junkie ffs.

I left diarm with complete freedom to run the show all day and then I get here and I'm 20+ posts away from a new page

I wasn't going to give him another top of page, nor was I going to have my gif and stats buried at the end of page 5!

Off to bed now so I may oversleep the end.

 

[Gio]

There's a clip somewhere in which Jimmy Johnstone faces him one-on-one, starts doing all sorts of tricks on the ball to bamboozle him and Figueroa (at Peñarol then) just stands there watching... and then Johnstone finally makes his move and Elías sticks his foot out and gets the ball as Johnstone sprints past him without it. Then he just plays out of defence as if he were playing against Sunday footballers.

Love that geezer, he is awesome.

Would love to see that clip.

We've long agreed that shouldn't be a factor. Gerson couldn't get on a pitch these days otherwise.

Yeah I'm a big believer on all eras being broadly equal, with positional and tactical variations, at least post professionalisation. Otherwise what's the point in doing anything all-time. Certain players who were known for being lazy or somewhat unfit like Gerson or Socrates I'm less convinced would necessarily compete against modern busy bees like Xavi.

 

[Moby]

How long to go for the deadline? I'll decide what to do once I get home. Couldn't come to a decision yesterday after reading all the to and fros.

 

[diarm]

Christ. Talk about an overload of information!

I'm sure lots of you have received mails at this stage, begging for votes so I may be too late. But let me read through that lot on the last couple of pages and answer some of the "points".

 

[diarm]

That said, players being familiar with each other can of course augment players. I've acknowledged Rudi and Klinsmann have that going for them, so I'm not sure why you, the faux honesty crusader, insist in ignoring what a phenomenal understanding Schiaffino and Nordahl had.

I'm not ignoring anything. I've said they are terrific players and acknowledged that they make up 50% of a terrific attacking quartet. No matter how good their understanding is though, it doesn't change the fact that the more rapid and mobile half of the quartet is missing and with your attack so reliant on Schiaffino's creating, I think that's an important loss.

 

[diarm]

"But that’s not the tactic being flawed, the problem is we no longer see ‘manoeuverers, jugglers, dribblers and ball-steppers’ like we used to”. “We always had at least two if not three or four on the pitch who could do that at pace and rip a team apart, however good their defenders were. Where there is space the advantage is always on the attackers’ side”.

Great quotes these.
My side has outmaneuvers, dribblers and ball steppers in abundance. Baggio, Völler, Schuster, Amoros, Baggio again will all take your defenders on. We will have more of the ball, we will be the attacking side in this game and players that good will find space or they will bloody make space.

Watch that clip of Klinsmann and Völler operating intricately in tight spaces. Look at what Baggio could do when closed down. Then imagine Schuster and Tardelli supporting that from midfield with Scholes pulling the strings from behind. Carnage.

 

[diarm]

Copout. Possession is getting massively overrated here. The ability to penetrate a defence and get clear goalscoring opportunities is all that really matters in football.

Looks like no one has been watching our games lately.

What a ridiculous argument. Our possession style hasn't been working because we've been one paced in attack and Rooney has been off form. You trying to suggest that peak Baggio, Völler, Klinsmann and Schuster would struggle like Fellaini, Rooney, Mata and Memphis is ridiculous.

 

[diarm]

Lest we forget, diarm started the game with Scholes anchoring the midfield and got shot of that idea after the game equivalent of 10-15 minutes (or half-time if we are going by pages!).

Scholes was never anchoring the midfield. Scholes was performing the exact same role he is now. You just kept banging on about what Tardelli was doing, trying to convince people that he couldn't do it (when you and I both know he could) so I reigned the Italian in a little and gave him a more obvious protective role.

 

[diarm]

Mediocre defences lose games at this level.

My defence isn't mediocre. You've built a GOAT defense for the second round of a draft at the expense of your midfield and attack and are banging the drum til the end!!!

Keeping the ball and having world class attackers and midfielders working harmoniously in a great system wins you matches.

 

[diarm]

 

[green_smiley]

How long to go for the deadline? I'll decide what to do once I get home. Couldn't come to a decision yesterday after reading all the to and fros.

About 3 hours from now

 

[diarm]

 

[diarm]

I left diarm with complete freedom to run the show all day and then I get here and I'm 20+ posts away from a new page

I wasn't going to give him another top of page, nor was I going to have my gif and stats buried at the end of page 5!

Off to bed now so I may oversleep the end.

You left me with complete freedom but still managed to top the post count from start to finish! I haven't taken the top of a single page, you have the first post in 4 of the 6!!!

That's good play though. Using draft experience and nous to mask the fact that you won't have enough of the ball to hurt me and your attacking 3 lack the pace and balance to be truly effective on the counter.

 

[antohan]

Would love to see that clip.

I posted it ages ago when I first picked Figueroa I think. Will have to look it up as it isn't "Figueroa vs. Johnstone" but just buried in documentary footage.

You haven't voted yet

BTW, don't you find it really funny how after all Nordahl does indeed seem a poor man's Vieri here? Christian has won drafts, made it to finals in others... Nordahl just seems to be "there", his only point appparently is to act as a beating stick for my team and not the other way around.

 

[diarm]

Just wanted to give everyone a quick idea of the shape my side will employ in defence and then in transition to attack be it centrally or in wider areas. There's a lot been said about the space our opponents will find in our half but I disagree. Our shape, along with the great workrate of guys like Tardelli and Schuster allows us to really constrict their attack during those times they do manage to get their hands on the ball.

Völler and Klinsmann were both industrious and will press and harry the midfield areas and when we do win the ball back, particularly in deeper areas, players like Scholes and Schuster are ideally suited to delivering the ball quickly and accurately to the likes of Völler, Baggio or Amoros breaking out from the back.

 

[antohan]

I'm not ignoring anything. I've said they are terrific players and acknowledged that they make up 50% of a terrific attacking quartet. No matter how good their understanding is though, it doesn't change the fact that the more rapid and mobile half of the quartet is missing and with your attack so reliant on Schiaffino's creating, I think that's an important loss.

You are completely fabricating stuff and are talking out of your arse, that's what I'm alluding to.

Gren never played with Schiaffino so he could hardly be in the "more rapid and mobile half of the quartet", you are just pulling that one out of your arse as a means to paint the pair as less rapid and mobile. They are vastly, VASTLY superior players to your CB pair, and they are far more mobile and rapid than they can handle.

But yeah go on talking aboout the big bad wolf killing your puppies.

 

[antohan]

Great quotes these.
My side has outmaneuvers, dribblers and ball steppers in abundance. Baggio, Völler, Schuster, Amoros, Baggio again will all take your defenders on. We will have more of the ball, we will be the attacking side in this game and players that good will find space or they will bloody make space.

You don't have space though. In fact, all the clips you post seem to be about players moving in ocean's of space.

That's my point, counterattacking sides with the right players -when afforded that sort of space- can glide through the pitch and defences for fun.

Instead, you are stuck in a compact defensive setup with a GOAT back four and two tremendous midfielders protecting it, one of them a GOAT who would be like a microwave for that Italian cheese of yours.

 

[antohan]

Scholes was never anchoring the midfield. Scholes was performing the exact same role he is now. You just kept banging on about what Tardelli was doing, trying to convince people that he couldn't do it (when you and I both know he could) so I reigned the Italian in a little and gave him a more obvious protective role.

He still can't do what you asked me to do, i.e. he is supposedly:

• tracking Facchetti
• stopping Cubillas
• shielding the defence against Schiaffino
• and providing width out right

All at the same time. The last one is with ball so somewhat compatible with the first, for instance. But 1-3 can't be happening symultaneously and you have no one else who can do them competently enough to hide the shambles that is your defence.

 

[diarm]

You are completely fabricating stuff and are talking out of your arse, that's what I'm alluding to.

Gren never played with Schiaffino so he could hardly be in the "more rapid and mobile half of the quartet", you are just pulling that one out of your arse as a means to paint the pair as less rapid and mobile. They are vastly, VASTLY superior players to your CB pair, and they are far more mobile and rapid than they can handle.

But yeah go on talking aboout the big bad wolf killing your puppies.

AND YOU ARE USING LARGE LETTERS, BOLD FONTS AND DIFFERENT COLOURS TO TRY AND SWAY OPINIONS BUT IT ISN"T WORKING. THE FACT REMAINS THAT THOSE PLAYERS SCORED LOADS OF GOALS AND HIT THEIR PEAKS PLAYING IN VERY DIFFERENT COMBINATIONS TO THE RATHER ONE PACED PARTNERSHIP YOU HAVE GONE WITH. THAT ISN'T FABRICATION.

Are you really trying to suggest that either Schiaffino or Nordahl were more rapid than Sol Campbell? Nonsense of the highest order.

 

[diarm]

You don't have space though. In fact, all the clips you post seem to be about players moving in ocean's of space.

Watch the clips and gifs I have contributed. My attackers don't need space. They create their own just as they did time after time again during their careers.

Instead, you are stuck in a compact defensive setup with a GOAT back four and two tremendous midfielders protecting it, one of them a GOAT who would be like a microwave for that Italian cheese of yours.

You've never put parmesan in a microwave have you? It hardens. Just like Marco Tardelli.

 

[antohan]

My defence isn't mediocre. You've built a GOAT defense for the second round of a draft at the expense of your midfield and attack and are banging the drum til the end!!!

Keeping the ball and having world class attackers and midfielders working harmoniously in a great system wins you matches.

Here you are making stuff up again. There's no such thing as "at the expense of my midfield and attack".

I've shown you at the start of this post my forwards are comparable and actually beat yours to the top of either scoring chart.

My midfield has two great defensive midfielders, including a GOAT, the greatest captain in World Cup history while you have to resort to Amoros as a captain, the man who couldn't even take his team to the World Cup or Euros (and when he finally did the latter they went out on a whimper).

Not sure how you want to classify Cubillas, but what he has done and achieved is comparable to anything Schuster/Baggio have.

 

[diarm]

He still can't do what you asked me to do, i.e. he is supposedly:

• tracking Facchetti
• stopping Cubillas
• shielding the defence against Schiaffino
• and providing width out right

All at the same time. The last one is with ball so somewhat compatible with the first, for instance. But 1-3 can't be happening symultaneously and you have no one else who can do them competently enough to hide the shambles that is your defence.

I don't need him to be doing all of those things all of the time because those players will have little of the ball, little of the time. When you do win the ball and attempt to hit me on the counter, Tardelli along with Schuster have the football intelligence, positioning and reading of the game as well as the athleticism to break down your attacks. It isn't as though we don't know where you'll be going and Tardelli won't need to be covering for a marauding right back. Neville is a top class defender all by himself.

 

[Balu]

You've never put parmesan in a microwave have you? It hardens. Just like Marco Tardelli.

 

[diarm]

Here you are making stuff up again. There's no such thing as "at the expense of my midfield and attack".

I've shown you at the start of this post my forwards are comparable and actually beat yours to the top of either scoring chart.

My midfield has two great defensive midfielders, including a GOAT, the greatest captain in World Cup history while you have to resort to Amoros as a captain, the man who couldn't even take his team to the World Cup or Euros (and when he finally did the latter they went out on a whimper).

Not sure how you want to classify Cubillas, but what he has done and achieved is comparable to anything Schuster/Baggio have.

You've shown club figures of players who played in very different set ups and with very different qualities around them. I have a proven pair who have done it together at world cups and against some of the best defences in history. I've Roberto Baggio who almost won a World Cup on his own. Probably would have done if he hadn't got injured.

I think you and maybe only Cubillas's mum truly believe that he has achieved in the game what Schuster and Baggio did. These are guys with medals all over them, guys on the podiums of multiple Balon D'ors, guys who've competed in World Cup finals and been the super stars in them.

 

[antohan]

@diarm and his spastic gif where his high line isn't high and when he doesn't have the ball suddenly everyone is back in his own half. That's not what happens when you play agaiint a counter-attacking side sporting a high line.

I've long been saying I can't be arsed with these drafts any more because I have no interest in the games. I've spent the entire game being accused of being some sort of suspect character using smoke and mirrors, yet I can say without a shadow of a doubt this is the most intellectually dishonest game I've ever seen on here. And that has nowt to do with me.

The only thing I'm pleased for is how them Krauts are suddenly appreciated properly. Surprising... or not, really.

But yeah, go on @diarm, keep making shit up, you clearly want it so may as well have it.

All I ever entered this for was the opportunity to tell you all a story, but if you are all going to go around doubting it and saying it is all smoke and mirrors to win draft games, you can shove it up your arse really.

 

[diarm]

@diarm and his spastic gif where his high line isn't high and when he doesn't have the ball suddenly everyone is back in his own half. That's not what happens when you play agaiint a counter-attacking side sporting a high line.

I've long been saying I can't be arsed with these drafts any more because I have no interest in the games. I've spent the entire game being accused of being some sort of suspect character using smoke and mirrors, yet I can say without a shadow of a doubt this is the most intellectually dishonest game I've ever seen on here. And that has nowt to do with me.

The only thing I'm pleased for is how them Krauts are suddenly appreciated properly. Surprising... or not, really.

But yeah, go on @diarm, keep making shit up, you clearly want it so may as well have it.

All I ever entered this for was the opportunity to tell you all a story, but if you are all going to go around doubting it and saying it is all smoke and mirrors to win draft games, you can shove it up your arse really.

Wow! Do you even taste the irony as it's coming out? Perhaps some fine roast parmesan might help with the bitterness.

 

[antohan]

AND YOU ARE USING LARGE LETTERS, BOLD FONTS AND DIFFERENT COLOURS TO TRY AND SWAY OPINIONS BUT IT ISN"T WORKING. THE FACT REMAINS THAT THOSE PLAYERS SCORED LOADS OF GOALS AND HIT THEIR PEAKS PLAYING IN VERY DIFFERENT COMBINATIONS TO THE RATHER ONE PACED PARTNERSHIP YOU HAVE GONE WITH. THAT ISN'T FABRICATION.

Are you really trying to suggest that either Schiaffino or Nordahl were more rapid than Sol Campbell? Nonsense of the highest order.

I could PES stats for you

In any case, Sol in a high line? His need to turn and slow burst will be enough to beat him. Once he built up pacce, yeah, but -like Stam- he didn't get going straight away.

 

[antohan]

Wow! Do you even taste the irony as it's coming out? Perhaps some fine roast parmesan might help with the bitterness.

I've told you already, have it. I'm fed up with this. Goodbye.

 

[diarm]

his spastic gif

Unnecessary.

@diarm and his spastic gif where his high line isn't high and when he doesn't have the ball suddenly everyone is back in his own half. That's not what happens when you play agaiint a counter-attacking side sporting a high line.

You realise that I will have much of the ball and my front 3 will be using it to attack. While we're maintaining possession, the back line will move upwards to offer outlets and to keep it moving. When you recover the ball in your half, our backline will retreat. Of course there will be occasions when you win it in our half or manage to play it quickly over or past our line when they're pushed up.

But you've said yourself that your side will primarily be focused on closing down space in your half. They're not going to be up my end waiting to punish my line. And I don't for a second think Nordahl is going to be the one punishing them with any sort of pace.

 

[Joga Bonito]

diarm hasn't said anywhere that he is playing a Pep Barca like or Cruyff's Ajax like aggressive high line here. What everyone has established is that he will dominate possession here but he has never claimed to play such reckless and extreme tactics. Needless to say, the team with possession is always going to push up more up the field, but not to this extent and most certainly not this side.

If anyone is doing Nordahl a disservice here it is those not acknowledging that gigantic disparity.

The fact is mate you didn't just compare Erico favourable to Nordahl but you brought the latter's credentials into question.

Firstly you besmirched his international goalscoring record.

He will also tell you Nordahl scored 43 goals in his 33 caps.

Let's look at that. Firstly, they were all friendly games (+a very rubbish post-war Olympic tourno). In 11 of those games he didn't score at all, which implies he freescored in others. Indeed, he racked up 15 of those goals in four games against Norway, aggregate score 24-5. Another eight goals were scored against Denmark and four against Hungary in 1943 (god knows what those war-time games looked like). He also scored 3 in a 7-0 drubbing of Finland and 4 in a 12-0 drubbing of South Korea. All in all, there's nothing to read into it.

Then you belittled his goalscoring credentials in the Serie A, calling him a poor man's Vieri and then maintaining that he was not better than Vieri at all.

He will also tell you that until recently he was the highest ever goalscorer in Serie A, five-time top scorer, averaging just under one goal per game at his peak.

What you are not told is Serie A used to have 20 teams then (38 games), when for most of the 60s, 70s and 80s it had 16 (30 games). That's one reason you find so many 50s top scorers ever there. Just look at the chaps who contested and sometimes beat him to top scorer: Istvan Nyers, who wouldn't get a look in for Hungary, and John Hansen, some Danish chap with 8 caps.

The other reason is Italian defences were rubbish. Seriously, Herrera only brought in Catenaccio in the 60s. Let's ignore number of games and Nordahl specifically. During his best years there were 3 goals per game, on average in Serie A, while in the 60s, 70s and 80s the average was 2 per game. So if we adjust for that, Nordahl's record is less than two every three games. That is worse than Vieri. He is no Vieri on steroids, not even Vieri, but a poor man's Christian Vieri.

I didn't just say defenders were rubbish, I pointed out defences across the entire Serie A shipped 50% more goals in his pomp than they did for the next three decades (to any striker, not just Nordahl). I think that is relevant in assessing his record. How is it not relevant?

I thought it was a good comparison regarding the type of player. The steroids implied he was better, which I don't think he was.

I know it isn't, which is why I provide a basis to make his record somewhat comparable to other players to have graced Serie A. Effectively, someone scoring 30 in Nordahl's day is equivalent to someone scoring 18 in the 60s, 70s and 80s, which is still bloody good.

It was a brilliant job in fact, as it worked a treat in the match-day thread. Firstly, no one even brought up the aerial and physical disparity that existed between the heading giant and Vasovic-Ferdinand, yet only Polaroid, Brwned and Gio only managed to bring up that central point throughout the match as others were busy trying to figure out whether Nordahl was all that or not. I remember having Vieri up against Vasovic-Carvalho in a match against Raees and it was one of my central points as to his defensive pairing being unable to handle the physical threat and the aerial threat of Vieri. Nothing of that sort happened in your match, so it was job well done.

So if you now post this diagram with Nordahl's, Abbadie's and Schuaffino's goalscoring exploits in the 50s Serie A, it does make people take it with a pinch of salt and question it, given that you had already provided considerable proof that the scoring records in the 50s weren't all that to write home about - your own words not mine.

I've been saying for ages now: I can't be arsed with drafts any more because I can't be arsed with the games. All the great stories and player appreciation going on during drafting goes out of the window during games. Which is fair cop, but no fun.

Agreed with that as I myself think it's part and parcel of games - selling players like they are the dogs bollocks whilst ignoring their flaws if you have that player, and exaggerating their flaws if the opposition has them. However, there has to be a limit to that and some sort of consistency and you can't expect people to not question you and Nordahl as you previously did a brilliant job on him and made people question his credentials - completely making him vs Vasovic-Ferdinand obsolete. If you are to go back on that and claim that he is really a great (when he was no better than Vieri) and was top scorer of the Serie A for 5 seasons (when it was in the 50s like you've pointed out) etc, eyebrows are going to be raised inevitably.

So if we were to apply your Sere A 50s goalscoring standards here by almost cutting the goal threat that Schiaffino, Abbadie and Nordahl possessed by half during the 50s, then your side looks desperately short, nay almost non existent on the goal front.

 

[diarm]

In any case, Sol in a high line? His need to turn and slow burst will be enough to beat him. Once he built up pacce, yeah, but -like Stam- he didn't get going straight away.

Are you mad? Big Sol could slide tackle faster than Nordahl could run:

No in all seriousness, he was much quicker than you're making out. Athleticism and speed off the mark was never an issue for Campbell.

 

[Gio]

The Sol criticism is a little harsh. He's a decent fit for squaring up to Nordahl, certainly better than Rio and Vasovic were.

 

[diarm]

diarm hasn't said anywhere that he is playing a Pep Barca like or Cruyff's Ajax like aggressive high line here. What everyone has established is that he will dominate possession here but he has never claimed to play such reckless and extreme tactics. Needless to say, the team with possession is always going to push up more up the field, but not to this extent and most certainly not this side.

Exactly this. I mean look at the disparity of where he's tried to show my defensive line in the graphic above, compared to where it actually is in my graphic on the OP. And that is when we have possession. Obviously we will retreat when he has the ball. That's football. I'm hardly expecting Nordahl to be running onto balls over the top and trying to spring an offside trap.

Firstly you besmirched his international goalscoring record.

Then you belittled his goalscoring credentials in the Serie A, calling him a poor man's Vieri and then maintaining that he was not better than Vieri at all.

So if you now post this diagram with Nordahl's, Abbadie's and Schuaffino's goalscoring exploits in the 50s Serie A, it does make people take it with a pinch of salt and question it, given that you had already provided considerable proof that the scoring records in the 50s weren't all that to write home about - your own words not mine.

This is the key. I haven't gone after anyone to attack them in the manner Sol Campbell has been attacked in this match. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency of who and what you're trying to sell us @antohan

 

[diarm]

I can't quite believe you called me out on my gif Anto after posting that "summary" of yours which not only lies about my defensive line, but also ignores the midfield contributions of Schuster and Tardelli as well as telling us that every one of my midfielder will be attacking across the field, all of the time like some sort of deranged idiots.

If Amoros is attacking, Tardelli and Scholes won't be. If the ball breaks free to Facchetti on the right, he will find Schuster before he gets to Neville. The one-two he wants to play with Schiaffino will have to beat Tardelli as much as it will Neville.

The pace you are claiming Nordahl and Schiaffino to possess is simpy not there. I'm not saying they were both slow but neither was rapid enough to punish that backline. Both were slower than all three of my front men.

 

[Moby]

This draft is a real classic EAP, well done.

I'm back now, will vote in a few minutes. A lot of 'banter' to filter out while I read the thread. I feel like I'm in a WW thread making that comment.

 

[Kazi]

I would vote if I could decide. This is close.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

This draft is a real classic EAP, well done.

I'm back now, will vote in a few minutes. A lot of 'banter' to filter out while I read the thread. I feel like I'm in a WW thread making that comment.

Think I've already decided whom to vote, but actually feel like doing the other manager a total injustice. Hence haven't voted yet.

Just to say credit to @diarm for dealing with all of anto's antics and landing equal punches of his own. This is awesome!