All Time Chain Draft - QF2: antohan vs diarm

With all players at their peaks who would win?


  • Total voters
    33
  • Poll closed .
You really are a soft lad, aren't you? There's no agenda in that, it's a simple fact.

As I said earlier, I'm not sure why people like @Annahnomoss bring up the Nordahl stuff when clearly he isn't performing at the same level as Christian Vieri. To the dustbin of drafts with him. Should have just gone stright to Liedholm and played Altafini, clearly. Didn't quite go with the story though.

I probably am to be fair. I'd make a terrible Italian cheese!

Yours was an unbelievably good side Anto and a wonderful story. I didn't for a second think I could win this game but just went out to give it a good go. I'm sorry if you feel upset but hope you can appreciate that's all it was. I'd hate not to read any more of your great write ups.

Thanks for a great game mate and for all the insight into those wonderful players.
 
I probably am to be fair. I'd make a terrible Italian cheese!

Yours was an unbelievably good side Anto and a wonderful story. I didn't for a second think I could win this game but just went out to give it a good go. I'm sorry if you feel upset but hope you can appreciate that's all it was. I'd hate not to read any more of your great write ups.

Thanks for a great game mate and for all the insight into those wonderful players.
Aww, that's nice. You should have thrown away the game if you want to hear more of anto's story

Feck off diarm. You won. Fair and square. Now move on and slay whoever is in your path
 
Aww, that's nice. You should have thrown away the game if you want to hear more of anto's story

Feck off diarm. You won. Fair and square. Now move on and slay whoever is in your path

:lol: Fair enough.
 
I probably am to be fair. I'd make a terrible Italian cheese!

Yours was an unbelievably good side Anto and a wonderful story. I didn't for a second think I could win this game but just went out to give it a good go. I'm sorry if you feel upset but hope you can appreciate that's all it was. I'd hate not to read any more of your great write ups.

Thanks for a great game mate and for all the insight into those wonderful players.

I know you couldn't possibly believe you would really win this, I've no qualms with that. My problem is with leveraging ignorance and spreading doubt about old players just because there isn't as much footage available of them. That's what spoils it.

I've done it in the past, sure, but grew out of it because it didn't take us anywhere good or constructive. Unfortunately there's continuous arrivals of draft junkies who take time to wake up to that so it's a losing battle really and one I no longer have any interest in. I just keep "retiring" in longer and longer spells until I get excited about some theme here or there, but always end up concluding the same: I'm just wasting a lot of my time.
 
Anyhow FWIW, the rest of the story went Liedholm-Rivera-Hamrin-Zoff to suddenly have something which had the same sort of solid and compact defence but a lot more creativity and flair going forward. As opposed to the Italian bore-jobs we've grown used to.

That's where Brera missed a trick: Peñarol in the 40s (Schiaffino, Varela, Abbadie) and then in the 60s (Tito and Abbadie); the Swedes (Gre-No-Li and Hamrin) and that great Milan side of the 50s. All coached by three different Hungarian coaches.

So while Brera watched Uruguay-Hungary and concluded Uruguay was the gold standard for Italy, he completely missed the point that the core of that Uruguay side and all the ones he believed best exemplified it, actually had Hungarian coaches.

The catenaccio philosophy he helped build was only a partial overly-defensive adaptation of something beautiful. He spent his entire life complaining even merging Italy's greatest sides they couldn't replicate it. But all its elements were right there in front of his nose as he watched Uruguay-Hungary in 1954, he just wasn't looking hard enough.
 
I know you couldn't possibly believe you would really win this, I've no qualms with that. My problem is with leveraging ignorance and spreading doubt about old players just because there isn't as much footage available of them. That's what spoils it.

I don't really think I did that any more than you did with Campbell or Neville but there we go. I don't think I ever once outwardly criticised one of your players. Maybe said that Schiaffino and Nordahl weren't the quickest but never that they weren't great footballers.

I've done it in the past, sure, but grew out of it because it didn't take us anywhere good or constructive. Unfortunately there's continuous arrivals of draft junkies who take time to wake up to that so it's a losing battle really and one I no longer have any interest in. I just keep "retiring" in longer and longer spells until I get excited about some theme here or there, but always end up concluding the same: I'm just wasting a lot of my time.

That's fair enough. But having some lovely old players and writing fabulous tributes to them is a little bit like having a great team on paper. You still have to go out and win the match and no matter what you say about my tactics, you are still well able to play games with the best of them. We saw that in the first round and I saw that I'd have to up my game to be competitive.

Liedholm - Rivera - Hamrin would have made your side terrifyingly good. Unstoppable with that defence. I'm very happy I didn't have to face it! :eek:
 
Anyhow FWIW, the rest of the story ...
Yeah, but you have to write really big extended posts about it. That short one doesn't do it. Because I'm stealing all your posts and plan to put them into a football book and get rich. And people would notice if I fill in the blanks with my shit writing, so go go go.
 
How many of the people voting for Antohan have actually witnessed his players play? Diarm gets my vote because I have a rough idea of how his team might play together, having seen most of his players play during my lifetime.

To what extent CAN you watch certain players play? That's the main question. For some of his players there's lots of footage, for others hardly anything. That's the way it goes with old school players. But you can't use a lack of available footage as an argument against a player - it can't work that way in an all time draft.

It's what Gio said above - either you take these players for what they are, read up on them, watch whatever footage IS available, and make up your mind as to what sort of players they were...or you insist on principle that no oldies should be allowed.

You don't vote against players you haven't seen simply because you haven't seen them - that's not fair.

Well, that's my take on it anyway - you're of course entitled to your opinion, and you have every right to vote based on whatever criteria you think is important. That's the nature of the game, I reckon. But I still think there's something illogical about simply dismissing players you haven't seen (or, I take it, read up on).
 
You don't vote against players you haven't seen simply because you haven't seen them - that's not fair.
I voted for players I had seen. Also, I refuse to believe that everyone who voted that way researched the players for hours. Although, I don't doubt a few of you know what you're talking about.
 
I know you couldn't possibly believe you would really win this, I've no qualms with that. My problem is with leveraging ignorance and spreading doubt about old players just because there isn't as much footage available of them. That's what spoils it.

I've done it in the past, sure, but grew out of it because it didn't take us anywhere good or constructive. Unfortunately there's continuous arrivals of draft junkies who take time to wake up to that so it's a losing battle really and one I no longer have any interest in. I just keep "retiring" in longer and longer spells until I get excited about some theme here or there, but always end up concluding the same: I'm just wasting a lot of my time.

The shedding of ignorance of old players is never a one game affair. You always do it with Latin American players, Balu did it with Bela Guttman in Managers draft, Joga always does justice to whomever he picks and it's all adds to the whole. As you say Schuster is now a draft hot pick when a couple of months before no one bothered with him. Bit by bit the appreciation grows. Aldo was planning a 40s draft which again adds to the whole. As you say this is more on building and showcasing than actual attempt to win. Once voters become familiar, I'm sure we'll see more of the golden legends.
 
I'm just wasting a lot of my time.

Well, in a sense we're all wasting time - that almost goes without saying. In another sense, though, you certainly aren't wasting time - or effort - presenting your players, debating their merits, bringing up gems or just generally talkin' (historical) football. For me, at least, the effort isn't wasted - as I usually end up learning something I didn't know. And I know for a fact that many on here will agree with the above.
 
I voted for players I had seen. Also, I refuse to believe that everyone who voted that way researched the players for hours. Although, I don't doubt a few of you know what you're talking about.

I think the point is taking a bit of time to read what is posted by the manager and make a judgement call. The managers do the research and present the player, all it takes is reading what they have prepared before voting. Extra research depends on how much more you want to know and is not mandatory at all.

It's just 'I haven't seen him' votes do not do justice to the efforts put in by the manager. In most drafts there is a scope to learn about players and manager put in lot of work to do the same with less emphasis on vote winning.

Not saying you did that, but just emphasizing the general expectations from voters.
 
Well, in a sense we're all wasting time - that almost goes without saying. In another sense, though, you certainly aren't wasting time - or effort - presenting your players, debating their merits, bringing up gems or just generally talkin' (historical) football. For me, at least, the effort isn't wasted - as I usually end up learning something I didn't know. And I know for a fact that many on here will agree with the above.

I certainly do.

I honestly knew nothing about Andrade, Goncalves, Varela and Abbadie, and little about Cubillas before this draft. The write ups are brilliant and in no way wasted just because a match is won or lost. Many of us will go on and try to learn more about them now as well. That can't be a bad thing.
 
I think the point is taking a bit of time to read what is posted by the manager and make a judgement call. The managers do the research and present the player, all it takes is reading what they have prepared before voting. Extra research depends on how much more you want to know and is not mandatory at all.

It's just 'I haven't seen him' votes do not do justice to the efforts put in by the manager. In most drafts there is a scope to learn about players and manager put in lot of work to do the same with less emphasis on vote winning.

Not saying you did that, but just emphasizing the general expectations from voters.
Fair enough, although tbf I did read the arguments (and always do).
 
I voted for players I had seen. Also, I refuse to believe that everyone who voted that way researched the players for hours. Although, I don't doubt a few of you know what you're talking about.

The first part might very well be true - but it could be true enough for votes going the other way too: That's the charm - or curse, whichever way you feel about it - of scan voters. Someone can vote based on their favourite player being on the imaginary pitch, or based on a personal grievance with one of the managers, or based on nothing at all.

But I maintain that - in my opinion - it doesn't make sense to vote against (that's what it amounts to) players you don't know or haven't seen as a matter of principle (and that's your stance, unless I'm mistaken), when these players are legitimately drafted. Again, there's always a debate to be had about which players should be eligible for these things - or whether it's a good idea to mix modern era players and oldies - but once the oldies are in the draft, they should be on par with the moderns as far as legitimacy goes.

So, in my opinion (again), if you don't know a significant number of the players involved, you shouldn't vote. That would be my principle. And it goes for all players, whether there's available footage or not.

If I came across a draft match featuring Canadian second division female players - I'd either make it my business to learn something about them, or abstain from voting.

Not targeting you, mate, with this - as I said before it's your right to base your vote on whatever you please. It's a general thing - a debate worth having, I suppose, about what the nature of these drafts actually is.
 
WTF anto is banned. What happened? Congrats diarm.. it seems you out anto-ed antohan here. Like Cutch said, finally someone who could go toe to toe with antohan. Only other poster who came close was Theon.
 
Really? :|
There is a cross against his name? I would think that means he is banned but there is no warning against his profile.. which would mean he asked to be banned?

If that is true, that is a shame. No draft is worth losing anto. Lover him or hate him, his a great asset not just to the draft community but the whole caf.
 
WTF anto is banned.

How do you know if someone is banned? And why would he be? Surely must have been something somewhere else as there's nothing in here I don't think?

What happened? Congrats diarm.. it seems you out anto-ed antohan here. Like Cutch said, finally someone who could go toe to toe with antohan. Only other poster who came close was Theon.

Thanks mate. Not sure anyone could out-anto anto but I gave it a go!
 
Anto's made himself look like a right moron, judging by this thread the drafts are better off without him, despite the insights he has.
 
Disappointing Balu :annoyed: What I said was in low voting games I used to PM all managers/regulars so they got their arses into the thread and voted. I didn't send individual PMs but group ones, even including the other manager involved. I consider that an above board way of getting people to vote, and it clearly wouldn't necessarily be for me, it's just that sometimes we got games that moved painfully slowly.

In any case, what I said was that in this new forum with the tag feature it was no longer required and you could do it on the thread. Still, warned him I had got all sorts of shit once for tagging Arsenal fans when a few were talking bollocks about Bergkamp.




I PMd a few non-voting regulars last time simply because every time I bumped the thread I lost a vote!
They were all regulars I noticed had commented but not voted, or voted based on something I had clarified later: Balu, harms, diarm, that was all. I trust all fo them to be their own men and make up their minds.

Christ anto, why not just tag them in here? Thought we put this can of worms to rest.
To be fair, it's slightly controversial. You really shouldn't have done it.

I thought we had clarified this after the Raees-EAP PM-gate (what a game that was :lol:). As like you've (and EAP/Balu here) said before in that game, a simple tag would have sufficed in bringing the later clarifications to their attention and a PM wasn't necessary at all. It pressurises managers/voters and whilst it didn't matter for our game, shouldn't be allowed, under any scenario, in the future.
 
@PedroMendez @ Marty1968 @Invictus @harms @kps88

Massive rant on the way! It’s a characteristically long post I wrote last year as a farewell… only to find I had been banned when I tried post it :lol: It has been sitting in my laptop for a year and has a few updates along the way.
 
@Enigma_87 @Fergus’son @Annahnomoss @rpitroda @ctp

Massive rant on the way! It’s a characteristically long post I wrote last year as a farewell… only to find I had been banned when I tried post it :lol: It has been sitting in my laptop for a year and has a few updates along the way.
 
kp3q0cK.gif
 
@diarm, good game mate. I sense some took the “you want it more” in the wrong way as some form of backhanded compliment. Nothing furthest from the truth: for a Uruguayan to admit their rival wants it more is the most damning and gut-wrenching admission of defeat. You can lose alright, but not give up.

It was a fantastic game and you were superb (minus the late bollocks about how I’d go around PMing people for votes). I chuckled at the hard Italian cheese and how you shamelessly managed to confuse the shit out of everyone for two pages banging on about how you had Franco Baresi, then Giuseppe Bergomi, and then it turned out you had neither but fecking Beppe Baresi instead. Same with the many incarnations of Bernd Schuster all simultaneously being on the pitch.

I’m fine with that, I’ve carried on like that before and had great fun doing it but, as you see in this game, eventually people want to make it catch up with you as some sort of righteous comeuppance. For the record, it was as ludicrous to call Nordahl a poor man’s Vieri as it was for @Gio to call him Vieri on steroids. The truth is bang in between: similar players, with similar traits and equally stunning records at their peak, which would be deployed in the same way. There’s nothing in it to the point if you had Schiaffino you’d play Nordahl and if you had Baggio or Del Piero you’d play Vieri. If the partner can’t settle it, the only discernible difference as far as I can tell is that Vieri is left-footed.

The thing is, there’s a before and after winning a draft. I probably deserve to have made a bit of a reputation in my first few drafts. Then you win one and realise life goes on and nobody really cares (obvious and self-evident as it sounds) so you try go back to enjoying them but by then you have to play to character and people won’t let you not do it so I kept picking up fights here and there with @Fergus' son on first, then @Theon, and the truth is more often than not we actually agree on stuff. I’m a bit fed up with it all.

As said, you wanted it more (be careful not to want it too much going forward) and certainly deserved it on the back of the manager’s performance, if not the team that got on the pitch.
 
Look what the tide dragged in! :)

Great to have you back @antohan ! You just missed the South American draft but quarters still left to be played and hopefully you'd get in on the action. :D
 
@everyone, the reason I’m asking for a ban is it’s the only way I can make sure I take a clean break. For a long time I’ve been saying I have to cut down on my caftime. I have a new startup and it’s not fair on my partners that I go missing for hours on end to hold keyboard wars.

I actually haven’t participated in many drafts (5 or 6 in total?) because I’ve found them largely boring to participate in as manager ever since we came up with open reinforcement pools and all sort of things that make the planning side of things redundant (which is my strengths and enjoyment, not getting lucky but MAKING your own luck through the way you go about drafting).

For a while I carried on and found solace in introducing certain players and making their case, but it’s a bit shite as you know the moment you get to the end game they become invisible and may as well not be on the pitch.

Then I retired from drafts on the basis I could write about players when they got picked by others, without having to worry about letting them down as their manager… It doesn’t work, I just end up getting pissed off with their manager when they drop them for a shiny name or just can’t be arsed to play a final said players deserved to feature in.

feck it, I take it far too seriously in terms of how invested I get with the players, and in the last few days many things came together at once:

  1. It seems I broke Annah. I’ve always liked the enthusiasm he puts in, all the way back from his first draft (which led me to make that infamous “Balu peaked early” vote, I simply wanted to see what he did next while Balu’s team had, well, peaked and taken a strange turn with Kempes in some role I couldn’t fully wrap my head around as to whether it would work at all). After our last game he seems to have a massive grudge. He wrote an excellent post on Liedholm a couple of days ago and I PMd telling him how it was great and how I was looking forward to picking him for my side… Next thing I know he has deleted most of the post and its gifs :confused: Luckily I still had a page open with the post so I replicated it and sent it to him showing I had the content anyway and asking why he deleted it. He promptly put it back on and never replied again until today, and he has been hellbent on having a go all game. Now, I don’t know what crime I may have committed, but if it drives someone like Annah (or me, or any of you) to not want one of their favourites being portrayed in the best possible light in a setup that is perfect for them… well… words fail me. I don’t want to be part of anything that makes that happen.

  2. All my pet peeves in one go!

    First, diarm starts with a shambolic setup, but nobody can vote yet as the poll takes ages. By the time people can vote (page 2) @Joga Bonito has already laid out everything that is wrong with that setup and how it can get fixed. You can tell I’m already losing the will to live at that point as one of my main pet peeves is once again going to get ignored: IF YOU START A GAME THE WRONG WAY AGAINST A COUNTER-ATTACKING SIDE WITH A SUPERB DEFENCE, JUST CONCEDE ONCE AND YOU ARE feckED, THERE’S NO COMING BACK. But here you just make a sub, tidy things up, shift players and arrows around and it’s like nothing happened even if technically it was 20mins of the first half and you probably conceded once at least with Scholes in a holding role against Cubillas.

    [September’16: shite timing for a lover of counter-attacking football like me, would have fared better at the height of Leicester City’s powers and the depths of our slow-mo possession borefests]


    Second, the continued overlooking of leadership and character. I was surprised at how many laughed at the captain material point (I’ve made it ever since my first draft). Leadership and character is a massive part of football, it’s what makes the difference when you have your backs against the wall. It would of course be of even more significance if you started the game with the entirely wrong setup and players drilled all week to play a different game. Who sorts that shit out? The Manager? Partly, but mostly the leaders on the pitch. I had Varela, Tito, Scirea, Figueroa, Facchetti… and the most experienced captain you had was Amoros with his history of constant failure as a France captain (88-94).

    [September ’16: again shite timing when we’ve seen how utterly hopeless we looked last season with no real leaders in the side]


    Third, manager’s not voting or wanting fecking penos. I don’t mind the scan voters, we know it’s part and parcel, but I’m increasingly annoyed with managers who take part in the thread, bang on and on, then don’t vote at all when a game is tight. What’s the fecking point? That’s how scan voters become an issue. And no, we don’t need double votes because many non-managers know their shit and many managers vote like cnuts. Voting for the draw is a copout, we seem to draw games more often than not these days, it’s fecking ridiculous. And how many times do we get some tosser explaining his vote with “I’m not sure about X/Y/Z” and then after lengthy explanations and multiple posts “Yeah, I see, you are right, but it would be unfair to the other guy if I changed my vote now”. SERIOUSLY? I say this in the nicest possible way: grow a fecking pair.

    [March ’16: I see both Gio and Theon, who didn’t vote, went on to win the 40s draft. Their first two picks? Figueroa and Cubillas. feck off :lol:]


    Fourth, what broke the camel’s back. When 1 vote down I checked who had/hadn’t voted. The difference of course could be explained by any one vote, but it was particularly mortifying that it could effectively be down to the guy who thought this was a good idea as a Juve All-Time XI
    Buffon

    Thuram Cannavaro Gentile Carbrini

    Pirlo

    Zidane Nedved

    Platini

    Baggio Del Perio
    :wenger: I don’t even know where to start… And why bother?


  3. Rivera and the Brera story. The last few days I really got into it. I’m not really into the researching side of drafts. Some of you guys are real scholars reading and relaying huge biographies and detailed analysis of long-forgotten games. I go on what I’ve seen, heard first hand from people whose judgement I rate, or have read. This means I have patches of knowledge: World Cups, South American football (mostly 60s-90s bar Uruguay/Argentina), Euros, Barca/Juve early 80s, Serie A late 80s, Dream Team and then CL/PL/modern era.

    My European/UEFA Cup viewing has been limited to certain teams I fancied or at some point looked into in more detail. I had never looked into 60s AC Milan in much detail (I’m more of an Inter man) but the chains and Brera took me down that path. Oh boy… doesn’t Rivera deserve a good showing on here!?! What a fecking player! Gorgeous, absolutely stunning, miles, and I mean a million miles, better than anything I had seen with Italy bar glimpses in ’68 (the problem not being Rivera but the incompatibility between the Inter and AC Milan styles and key players). I thought I rated him before, but man did I underrate the little Abatino :eek:

    I’m gutted not to be able to give him that run out. I’m gutted it’s largely the result of all the above idiotic dynamics we have in drafts. I’m gutted that if people aren’t going to vote for the better team, or are in doubt, they don’t at least stop and think which one has more to offer going forward. diarm’s players have been done to death, and we all know diarm’s side is going to come short in the next game (no offence meant mate, but there’s not really much you can do with it and suddenly people who today loved Beppe Baresi and Gaz Neville will be telling you they are out of their depth against more fancy names than the ones I put on the pitch today).

    But more than anything else I’m gutted that I can’t/couldn’t find the will to turn it around for them boys. I’m as broken as @Annahnomoss and it’s no fun.

    [October’15: as it turns out diarm went out with a whimper and the simple addition of ONE of my FOUR awesome defenders made @The Stain unbeatable. Go figure]

    [March’16: I see @Tuppet has drafted a 40s side with Rivera at the centre of it and very much in his element. Hope that went well mate. Can’t be arsed to look up the games, but in that setup he should have shone… probably until he became invisible and was just “there” and not fancy enough in a late stage. It’s amazing how players suddenly lose their draft mojo/lip service]
 
Look what the tide dragged in! :)

Great to have you back @antohan ! You just missed the South American draft but quarters still left to be played and hopefully you'd get in on the action. :D

Not a chance. I had a look around, have some things to add here and there, but managers have done a grand job and I'm not taking over the darned thing. I'll be happy to comment after it's over.

Good to see you mate.
 
:lol: whatever is coming must have troubled you for quite some time now.

Part not feeling right that it hadn't come across the right way re: diarm and partly a load of stuff to say about drafts and how they were going tits up. Seems some have been looked into.