All Time Chain Draft - QF2: antohan vs diarm

[Annahnomoss]

You are just sore because you don't get the difference between rating Mauro Ramos as a clear inclusion in a Bela Guttman homage and rating him as a defender. Different things.

It all sounds like sour grapes and people conveniently wanting to make a point/example. Go on then.

Was referring to your opinions on Nordahl rather mate.

Antohan - "Erico vs. Nordahl

There's a world of difference between the two, despite Gio selling Nordahl as the best thing since sliced bread and "Christian Vieri on steroids".

Firstly, he will tell you Erico never played for Paraguay. True, he couldn't, as foreign-based players were banned, and he opted not to play for Argentina despite being offered ridiculous sums to do so. He will also tell you Nordahl scored 43 goals in his 33 caps.

Let's look at that. Firstly, they were all friendly games (+a very rubbish post-war Olympic tourno). In 11 of those games he didn't score at all, which implies he freescored in others. Indeed, he racked up 15 of those goals in four games against Norway, aggregate score 24-5. Another eight goals were scored against Denmark and four against Hungary in 1943 (god knows what those war-time games looked like). He also scored 3 in a 7-0 drubbing of Finland and 4 in a 12-0 drubbing of South Korea. All in all, there's nothing to read into it.

He will also tell you that until recently he was the highest ever goalscorer in Serie A, five-time top scorer, averaging just under one goal per game at his peak.

What you are not told is Serie A used to have 20 teams then (38 games), when for most of the 60s, 70s and 80s it had 16 (30 games). That's one reason you find so many 50s top scorers ever there. Just look at the chaps who contested and sometimes beat him to top scorer: Istvan Nyers, who wouldn't get a look in for Hungary, and John Hansen, some Danish chap with 8 caps.

The other reason is Italian defences were rubbish. Seriously, Herrera only brought in Catenaccio in the 60s. Let's ignore number of games and Nordahl specifically. During his best years there were 3 goals per game, on average in Serie A, while in the 60s, 70s and 80s the average was 2 per game. So if we adjust for that, Nordahl's record is less than two every three games. That is worse than Vieri. He is no Vieri on steroids, not even Vieri, but a poor man's Christian Vieri.

What about Erico? How do we assess his 90 goals in 64 games that landed Independiente two consecutive titles? Well, Gio has the answer again: José Manuel Moreno. He will tell you how that giant of football played in one of the most devastating attacks in history "La Máquina de River".

The great thing is they both come from the same era, same league, facing the same defences. Moreno's top scoring season with La Máquina saw him score 17 goals. Of course, he wasn't only about goals but assists, so let's look at that side's top scorer: Labruna with 23, and then there's also Pedernera with 10. That's 50 goals, assuming they were all scored or assisted by Moreno, which is unlikely as the other two guys from La Máquina were primarily there to assist (e.g. it took Muñoz 11 years at River to reach 40 goals).

Erico scored 47 goals, all by himself, in one single season. Don't have assists stats, but that in itself is as productive as the entire fabled 5-man "La Máquina". Further, in 1938 a ciggie brand ("43") offered prize money to anyone scoring 43 goals. With the league won and Erico already on 43, he drew blanks for two games to collect the prize money.

Unfortunate, as after some feverish recalculations and rebound analysis from River fans, Labruna has been recognised as joint top ever Argentinian League scorer... in twice as many games.

Erico was a beast, absolutely unplayable, and that's why you don't hear anyone saying Gunnar Nordahl was the best, yet you find one who has seen and played along with some of the greatest legends in the game suggesting he was just that. "

 

[Joga Bonito]

@Edgar Allan Pillow just manages to get his post in between that write-up again, as he did in the original sheep draft thread as well

 

[Moby]

@Edgar Allan Pillow just manages to get his post in between that write-up again, as he did in the original sheep draft thread as well

Excellent write-up-bombing, Edgar.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Excellent write-up-bombing, Edgar.

That timing though. Exactly before the quotes section again

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Edgar Allan Pillow just manages to get his post in between that write-up again, as he did in the original sheep draft thread as well

Destiny mate, it just wasn't meant to be!

I've deleted it.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Page 3 is classic!

 

[MJJ]

I know - just a chance to have a dig at Barca (I can't resist that).

I fully agree with the logic, though - you don't need hard men in the muscle sense, just men with guile (and Barca had that in spades).

Same here! Only reason I banned xavi.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

In fairness to anto, his comments above has to be taken in context.

Yes, there's no doubt an element of salesmanship in it, but he wasn't bigging up a nobody in order to talk down Nordahl. Erico is a legend - not in the modern sense, where my gran qualifies as a "legend", but an actual legend. Considered as the greatest Paraguayan player of all time by most - and considered a finisher of the highest order by football historians all over the place.

So, the claim that Erico is better than Nordahl doesn't mean that Nordahl is shite - far from it.

Obviously, the above was anto's sales pitch at the time, but them's the hyperbolic breaks.

Anyway, yeah - he's been caught downtalkin' his own man, but really - it's hardly a shocker given the nature of the thing. And, again, he was bigging up a proper legend, not some random mug who isn't fit to lace Nordahl's boots.

Poor man's Vieri doesn't look good, though - no doubt about that, as the great man would say.

 

[MJJ]

@Joga Bonito I had forgotten how good of a write up that was. Made me sad all over again that I didnt get to see schuster play.

 

[Joga Bonito]

@antohan I have to say that your efforts in the graphics department are less than commendable this time round. Straight shit from whatsyertactics? I was looking forward to silhouettes and multi-layer extravaganza.

That said, I do commend you on the formation. It makes a lot of sense, actually. First thing I noticed was Abbadie in the winger rather than right midfielder role (which he played so well last match) - and was about to question that. But with Schiaffino on the pitch it makes sense. And Schiaffino makes double sense, as it were, with Nordahl up front.

It's an ambitious thing, though, in terms of winning voters over - it takes some reading-up on these players in order to get it. But I'm the last person on this Caf to let that count against you. It's actually quite brilliant. Like last time, the players suit the tactics to a T.

And you do have, regardless of everything else, an insane back four. As Gio said, or rather suggested, you shouldn't have been allowed to get away with that. Part of the argument from the last match still has merit: How do you score against that? The central pairing can hardly be upgraded quality wise, and certainly not in this particular draft. The fecker on the left can't be upgraded in any draft. And the one on the right is top class. Which sounds almost underwhelming compared to the other three, but there you go.

Still, I want to see how this one pans out. Player for player this is tight. You have his number easily in defence, but the rest of the pitch is a different story. Much, much tighter - and he has announced a slight tactical change too.

Seconded. It promises to be a really close match which could go either way, anto's solidity against the ermmm, how do I put it,

attack of diarms. Still undecided on the match-up and will see how it proceeds before voting.

Also on the width part, I think the Völler-Klinsmann strike partnership is critical in that department. The prime reason for having width is to stretch the opponent's midfield-defense and diarm has a great set-up with Baggio playing his inside left role and Schuster in his right-ish role where both aren't rigidly narrow and are fluid and direct footballers who are comfortable out wide whenever the situation calls for it. Völler-Klinsmann were a truly great partership when it came to foraging out wide and probing the defensive line with their endless movement and verve. With Amoros playing an attacking wing-back role, I don't exactly see a lack of width as a problem here. Sure you could put a winger up against Facchetti or Andrade but I doubt it would do much good to diarm as an individual match-up but once again the key to having that wide player is being able to stretch play. I would say diarm has that in abundance.

The exact same accusation was levelled at Pat_Mustard in his match against Mjj/crappy with only Simonsen out wide and two defensive FBs. I'd argued the same thing, stating that the attackers (Kempes, Law, Charlton, Schuster) being able to stretch play and being comfortable making runs out wide in a fluid manner, is just as (if not more) critical than just having conventional wide players.

It's funny as I couldn't really see diarm putting out a tactically coherent team prior to the match, so kudos to him for pulling off a great 4-2-2-2 with the perfect striker partnership and just the right midfielders.

 

[Joga Bonito]

@Joga Bonito I had forgotten how good of a write up that was. Made me sad all over again that I didnt get to see schuster play.

There is plenty to go around for everyone.

Spoiler

Germany vs Brazil (1981)





Barca vs PSG (1982 friendly)





Barca vs Sporting (80/81 Copa del Rey final)





Barca vs Real (82/83 Copa del Rey final)





Barca vs Athletic Bilbao (83/84 Copa Del Rey final)





Barca vs Real (1983)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuqLRQPoCwE



Barca vs Real (82/83)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoAtClMUkdU



Barca vs Real (82/83)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4efJ7FlMh10



Barca vs Real (82/83)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NdXvRBTvRI



Barca vs Real (80/81)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSqB6g9pJ_4



Barca vs Metz (1984)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgHkNKYIgss



Barca vs Athletic Bilbao (87/88)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yX3TgDZ9_g


Barca vs Real (83/84)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irjSw6v34_s

A few overlaps (one of the 83/84 ones) that I forgot to delete though. Plenty of matches of him playing as a libero for Real are available on youtube too. The Euro 1980 matches have to be downloaded though

 

[diarm]

Before I spend all day watching Schuster videos (once you start watching those old games, particularly some of the Barca-Madrid games where he excelled) you can lose hours to them!), I wanted to talk a little bit about my front 3.

I'll get to Baggio in a while (although I'd imagine you all know about the man crush I have on the guy at this stage) but will start with the quite brilliant partnership of Völler and Klinsmann up top.

Blonde on Blonde

Before I tell you why I think they were so good together and why I feel they'll add so much to my set up, here's what the great Rudi Völler himself had to say when asked about their partnership:

Q: You and Klinsmann had a fantastic strike partnership – what was your secret?

We were totally different in every respect – privately and on the pitch. I was more of a dribbling type of striker, moving to the sides, searching for one-on-one situations. Jurgen's place was directly in front of goal, and he was also a very good header of the ball. We got along perfectly, even though we were very different as players.

That about sums it up for me. Klinsmann was the more athletic of the two with an impressive leap and an ability to hang in the air before unleashing lethal headers at goal. Völler was the more skillful and had more pace, he loved pulling into wider areas but was equally lethal when arriving into the box. Klinsmann was the lethal predator, the poacher and the nuisance presence in the area while Völler could create, dazzle and destruct in equal measure.

Throughout their international careers, each maintained more or less a goal every two games average, Klinsmann retiring with slightly under and Völler with just over. Any partnership that's worth a goal a game at international level is pretty special but it will always be the 6 goals on route to winning the World Cup for Germany in 1990 which stands out for me.

It's amazing how two players with such differences could appear so in sync on the field. At times it appeared a telepathic understanding with both alternating and switching to bamboozle defenders. I'll include a highlights video of each player later, along with their goals at Italia 90 but I think this goal from USA 94 sums up their electrifying chemistry perfectly:

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The exact same accusation was levelled at Pat_Mustard in his match against Mjj/crappy with only Simonsen out wide and two defensive FBs. I'd argued the same thing, stating that the attackers (Kempes, Law, Charlton, Schuster) being able to stretch play and being comfortable making runs out wide in a fluid manner, is just as (if not more) critical than just having conventional wide players.

I agree with this - on principle - one hundred percent. One can't look at the formation pic and conclude there's no width, because there are no according-to-Hoyle wingers.

The particular problem here, however, is that diarm could've actually used an according-to-Hoyle winger (well, a bloody good one, needless to say), to provide a more constant Grade A threat against either fullback - because that looks like a more plausible route than a) challenging a rock solid RB through Baggio drifting wide (supported, in theory, by Amoros - but he can't commit to this too frequently, not least because Diarm's defence as a whole is a bit underwhelming in this setting) and Schuster operating on the right (supported by Neville, who will do that excellently, but his problem is the same as Amoros', plus he isn't as good as Amoros going forward) and b) relying mainly on a central attacking threat against THAT duo AND Tito shielding them (plus both F and A defending as per default - the most basic weapon is still the hit-em-on-the-counter move).

Phew. I don't know if that made sense - probably not. But my main worry here, on diarm's behalf, is that he doesn't have an obvious advantage anywhere. Anto has his number defensively - overwhelmingly so, I would say. Midfield is tight - and I might even give him that, player for player. Attack is even-steven, I'd say, but that's not enough - he doesn't have enough to unlock that hellish combo back there, not ENOUGH for him to score what he needs to win. In that sense his problem is identical to the one anto's opponent faced in the last match.

And in the context of ENOUGH he could have used a pure winger, someone to cause genuine trouble for F & A (and serve regular crosses for Klinsmann and Völler to work with).

 

[MJJ]

There is plenty to go around for everyone.

Spoiler

Germany vs Brazil (1981)





Barca vs PSG (1982 friendly)





Barca vs Sporting (80/81 Copa del Rey final)





Barca vs Real (82/83 Copa del Rey final)





Barca vs Athletic Bilbao (83/84 Copa Del Rey final)





Barca vs Real (1983)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuqLRQPoCwE



Barca vs Real (82/83)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoAtClMUkdU



Barca vs Real (82/83)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4efJ7FlMh10



Barca vs Real (82/83)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NdXvRBTvRI



Barca vs Real (80/81)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSqB6g9pJ_4



Barca vs Metz (1984)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgHkNKYIgss



Barca vs Athletic Bilbao (87/88)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yX3TgDZ9_g


Barca vs Real (83/84)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irjSw6v34_s

A few overlaps (one of the 83/84 ones) that I forgot to delete though. Plenty of matches of him playing as a libero for Real are available on youtube too. The Euro 1980 matches have to be downloaded though

Nice! Cheers mate, thats my afternoons sorted for the whole week.

 

[diarm]

I agree with this - on principle - one hundred percent. One can't look at the formation pic and conclude there's no width, because there are no according-to-Hoyle wingers.

The particular problem here, however, is that diarm could've actually used an according-to-Hoyle winger (well, a bloody good one, needless to say), to provide a more constant Grade A threat against either fullback - because that looks like a more plausible route than a) challenging a rock solid RB through Baggio drifting wide (supported, in theory, by Amoros - but he can't commit to this too frequently, not least because Diarm's defence as a whole is a bit underwhelming in this setting) and Schuster operating on the right (supported by Neville, who will do that excellently, but his problem is the same as Amoros', plus he isn't as good as Amoros going forward) and b) relying mainly on a central attacking threat against THAT duo AND Tito shielding them (plus both F and A defending as per default - the most basic weapon is still the hit-em-on-the-counter move).

Phew. I don't know if that made sense - probably not. But my main worry here, on diarm's behalf, is that he doesn't have an obvious advantage anywhere. Anto has his number defensively - overwhelmingly so, I would say. Midfield is tight - and I might even give him that, player for player. Attack is even-steven, I'd say, but that's not enough - he doesn't have enough to unlock that hellish combo back there, not ENOUGH for him to score what he needs to win. In that sense his problem is identical to the one anto's opponent faced in the last match.

And in the context of ENOUGH he could have used a pure winger, someone to cause genuine trouble for F & A (and serve regular crosses for Klinsmann and Völler to work with).

I'm quite happy with the job either Tardelli or Schuster can do on the right side of midfield in terms of offering width, running and supply from wider areas. Both are more than capable of providing this role, particularly in a side whose attacking strengths lie through the middle and who have in Völler, a player who will relish in pulling defenders out into wider positions.

I respect your points on the obvious advantages but I see it very differently. I think my midfield overwhelms his and I think while he poses a greater wide threat than I do, I have the better attacking set up with Baggio, Völler and Klinsmann meshing together beautifully and ruthlessly.

 

[diarm]

Roberto Baggio - Il Divin Codino (The Divine Ponytail)

One of the greatest footballers in Italian and world football history and the player who first made me fall in love with the beautiful game as a 7 year old watching the World Cup in 1994.

Quick, dynamic and wonderfully skillful with both feet, Baggio is one of the greatest dribblers ever seen. He terrorised defences for club and country and during the early 90's, was the finest footballer in the world. Some of my fondest childhood memories are waking up on Sunday mornings to watch Football Italia on Channel 4 with my dad and looking forward to seeing what Baggio had done that week!

With an impressive goalscoring record at both domestic and international level, Baggio was at his most effective when allowed to roam outside the box, receiving the ball in space and running at terrified defenders. Almost impossible to tackle, the Italian magician was ruthless once he entered the box but also deadly from outside it.

In this lineup, as a fake 9 1/2 dropping to link with Schuster (as was so effective for Maradona at Barcelona), Baggio will flourish with the movement of Völler and Klinsmann disrupting and pulling around defenders who are already uncertain due to facing the accurate and unpredictable passing of both Scholes from deep and Schuster from the right of the midfield.

Baggio was at times untackleable and will link beautifully with our front two here. As good as our opponents illustrious defence undoubtedly is, he could build a wall between us and the goal and this front 3, and in particular our "Divine Ponytail" will still find their way through.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I'm quite happy with the job either Tardelli or Schuster can do on the right side of midfield in terms of offering width, running and supply from wider areas. Both are more than capable of providing this role, particularly in a side whose attacking strengths lie through the middle and who have in Völler, a player who will relish in pulling defenders out into wider positions.

I respect your points on the obvious advantages but I see it very differently. I think my midfield overwhelms his and I think while he poses a greater wide threat than I do, I have the better attacking set up with Baggio, Völler and Klinsmann meshing together beautifully and ruthlessly.

These are fair points - but it's the "quite happy" part which stands out for me. The major advantage here is anto's defensive set-up over yours. That is where he beats you hands down. The rest of it is down to balance and tactics - neither of which is wanting on either side, as I see it, especially now that you've done that switch.

So, in short, it's a question of what you can do to break down his superior defence - and that's where "happy enough" doesn't quite cut it. The players who will - and I don't doubt that - mesh together beautifully are mainly a central force - and they're up against a CB pairing + a defensive midfielder who, as a combo, couldn't be much better. And that combo are normally (as the idea remains to punish you when you lose the ball) supported by a defensively rock solid RB and Facchetti, who is better defensively than any attacking fullback or wingback alive (or dead, almost).

It's a matter of penetrating the wall. I don't see you doing that to a sufficient degree. That's the width issue. Happy enough isn't enough here - you need someone who can cause a serious disruption on top of those central lads meshing beautifully - and you don't have that, Schuster won't do that to the required extent, and Baggio is one of the central lads to begin with.

This is painting it in extreme terms, obviously, but as the man said - sometimes you need to exaggerate in order to make things at least halfway clear.

Halfway clear: You need a more potent threat attacking his fullbacks in order to win this match. And you don't have that threat.

Still, you could manage to keep him off the ball to the extent that he won't score.

 

[antohan]

Scholes being more protected is one thing - and an essential thing - but this means you can utilize him at his absolute best in the, say, middle-Scholes sense: The central midfielder who played alongside Keano post '99, before he became Old Scholes (the DLP without protection).

At least that's how I would read this, fair or not. The original formation had to include Old Scholes (because no other version of him played anything like that role), but this one could actually feature a younger Scholes (not Scholes the AM, but Scholes the CM, younger version), which makes things considerably more interesting.

That sure isn't right. You can't start old Scholes and switch to the earlier one halfway through the game. It's been discussed before many times and I've had to stick to that logic despite being a huge fan of versatile players.

E.g. here I could have started more conservatively with RM Abbadie and unleash the winger later on tired legs. Obviously not fair so I chose one.

 

[diarm]

These are fair points - but it's the "quite happy" part which stands out for me. The major advantage here is anto's defensive set-up over yours. That is where he beats you hands down. The rest of it is down to balance and tactics - neither of which is wanting on either side, as I see it, especially now that you've done that switch.

So, in short, it's a question of what you can do to break down his superior defence - and that's where "happy enough" doesn't quite cut it. The players who will - and I don't doubt that - mesh together beautifully are mainly a central force - and they're up against a CB pairing + a defensive midfielder who, as a combo, couldn't be much better. And that combo are normally (as the idea remains to punish you when you lose the ball) supported by a defensively rock solid RB and Facchetti, who is better defensively than any attacking fullback or wingback alive (or dead, almost).

It's a matter of penetrating the wall. I don't see you doing that to a sufficient degree. That's the width issue. Happy enough isn't enough here - you need someone who can cause a serious disruption on top of those central lads meshing beautifully - and you don't have that, Schuster won't do that to the required extent, and Baggio is one of the central lads to begin with.

This is painting it in extreme terms, obviously, but as the man said - sometimes you need to exaggerate in order to make things at least halfway clear.

Halfway clear: You need a more potent threat attacking his fullbacks in order to win this match. And you don't have that threat.

Still, you could manage to keep him off the ball to the extent that he won't score.

When I say happy enough, I am referring explicitly to what they can add in terms of width. That's totally in addition to the wealth of excellence they bring me elsewhere. I know full well that I'm not going to win this game with wide players burning his fullbacks and delivering crosses but that is not the same thing as completely lacking width.

Schuster is more than capable of receiving the ball wide, or carrying it wide and delivering crosses from deep. Völler is more than capable of pulling wide, receiving a ball and punishing a fullback before picking out Klinsmann with a cross.

I think you're missing out the threat that Tardelli or Schuster can carry from outside the box or arriving late. The main thrust of my attack will of course come through the middle but I simply can't believe that Baggio, Völler and Klinsmann won't find a way through as least a couple of times or that Schuster or Tardelli won't get a shot away from outside the box.

With me dominating possession, it may well not take many opportunities but we will create. I am sure of it.

 

[antohan]

My favourite post on that entire thread?

Well @antohan 's reply to Joga's write up of course.

Where am I denying he is a cracking player? He was a joy to watch, but all tthis game really boils down to is that I will score at ease against your rather mediocre high line while you will struggle to score even once.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

That sure isn't right. You can't start old Scholes and switch to the earlier one halfway through the game. It's been discussed before many times and I've had to stick to that logic despite being a huge fan of versatile players.

E.g. here I could have started more conservatively with RM Abbadie and unleash the winger later on tired legs. Obviously not fair so I chose one.

Fair point - and I half thought about not putting it in those terms, but there it is.

That's how it reads. And so it's hard to take it any other way - when nothing is explicitly stated. Scholes is highly problematic in that regard, as I've always banged on about. He is three different players at the top level.

But you're right - it should be explicitly stated which incarnation is in use when such players are picked. It's not something which is, say, smoothly worked into the draft mechanics, though - it's not the first time something like this has been brought up. We probably need clearer guidelines on it.

Having said all that, diarm has not stated which Scholes he actually uses - or which Scholes he actually used. That's one thing. This is MY interpretation, not his.

And secondly, Old Scholes could easily play the current role - in fact, he'd laugh at that role, compared to grinding it out next to Carrick or worse - the difference would be his mobility and the frequency with which he'd be able to pop up on the edge of (or inside) the area.

 

[diarm]

Where am I denying he is a cracking player? He was a joy to watch.

I haven't said you denied anything. I just mentioned how much I enjoyed you bestowing such wholesome praise on one of my many key men!

but all tthis game really boils down to is that I will score at ease against your rather mediocre high line while you will struggle to score even once.

You can't score without the ball. And the idea that I will struggle to score even once is laughable. I have more match winners and goalscorers in my attack and my midfield. 85 international goals in your front 3 compared to 159 in mine (167 if you count the 8 Klinsmann got for the 1988 West Germany Olympics side).

 

[Moby]

This is a really cracking game.

 

[Theon]

That trio of Scholes/Schuster/Baggio are going to take the piss at times in Diarm's midfield .

Looks unbelievablely good on the ball and should have the opposition chasing shadows at times, no doubt.

I don't love the defence though and I would prefer someone more offensive than Gaz playing that role on the right, considering the lack of width.

 

[diarm]

That trio of Scholes/Schuster/Baggio are going to take the piss at times in Diarm's midfield .

Looks unbelievablely good on the ball and should have the opposition chasing shadows at times, no doubt.

I don't love the defence though and I would prefer someone more offensive than Gaz playing that role on the right, considering the lack of width.

That's a fair point. I would have loved to make that change but felt that Schuster and Völler added so much that I couldn't justify it. Neville is superb defensively which is no bad thing against his dangerous left flank either.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

4 pages and just 9 votes?

 

[MJJ]

4 pages and just 9 votes?

I want to vote diarm but thats only because am not aware of most of anto's player (Cant visualize how they will play). Dont think it will be fair on him if I vote for that reason so am refraining. Think it might be the same for a few others.

 

[antohan]

You can't score without the ball. And the idea that I will struggle to score even once is laughable.

That's new age nonsense based on tiki-taka. The fact is even tiki-taka at its height (which isn't what you are playing) couldn't stop other teams having 30-40% possession. I reckon I'll have about 40% possession here.

The key thing is WHAT YOU DO WITH YOUR POSSESSION. You are stuck in a quagmire, running into a wall, while every time I have the ball I'm unleashing hell on that high line of yours and the empty half of the pitch it offers me.

MY FORWARDS WILL GO THROUGH YOUR DEFENCE LIKE A KNIFE THROUGH CHEESE.

Gunnar Nordahl and Pepe Schiaffino, a proven pair, against the guy you mistake for Bergomi (he is no Bergomi) and "I am Sol". It shouldn't be allow, it's murderous.



This is what Schiaffino did to a better Magyar highline unleashing a forward I actually have on the bench because he simply isn't as good ad Nordahl:

___________

And then you have:

• Abbadie (proven with Schiaffino and Varela) most likely running into acres of empty flank.
  
• Facchetti attacking Gary Neville playing a high line (just pass it long and watch him burn him for pace).
  
• And Teófilo Cubillas, who nobody seems to give a damn about. I've been asked to keep gifs to a minimum so a link to Teófilo playing on the break will have to do.

I have more match winners and goalscorers in my attack and my midfield. 85 international goals in your front 3 compared to 159 in mine (167 if you count the 8 Klinsmann got for the 1988 West Germany Olympics side).

So dishonest... Everyone knows modern players play far more internationals. Now run it on a gpg basis. Cheat.

 

[diarm]

I want to vote diarm but thats only because am not aware of most of anto's player (Cant visualize how they will play). Dont think it will be fair on him if I vote for that reason so am refraining. Think it might be the same for a few others.

The heart wants what the heart wants though MJJ.

You can visualise Schuster linking with Baggio though can't you? And you can see that one two Roberto just played with Völler. You can picture the little feint and the quick feet to bring him into the box and the shot he just placed at the bottom corner as if you were there in the stands watching it. You just know it's going in and even if the keeper somehow manages to get a hand on it, every part of you remembers how quickly Klinsmann will pounce on the rebound.

Sometimes you've just got to go with what you know.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I think you're missing out the threat that Tardelli or Schuster can carry from outside the box or arriving late.

Well, that's where it's at - isn't it? The general argument - that your central players can operate out wide - is perfectly plausible. No question about it - they often did, both Baggio and Völler. And there is no question whatsoever - none at all - that both Tardelli and Schuster are capable of providing the proverbial "width" in a generic match against some sort of opponent.

But this isn't some sort of opponent - that's the problem. You don't break down an insane defence with generic movements from players who aren't specialists at wing play. I'm sorry, but you simply don't.

Maybe I'm guilty of overrating anto's defence here - but I really don't think I am. It's an insane back four protected by one of the best defensive midfielders in history - nothing less. You need something special against it. You've got parts of that "special" but just not enough.

And he's got you matched offensively - let's not forget that. If we're looking at unnatural "battles" here, his attackers face a considerably easier challenge against your defenders than your attackers do against his (defenders) - and his attackers aren't behind yours in terms of individual quality either.

If we're looking three-on-three in the middle (which isn't natural, but what the hell - I consider Cubillas, whom I guess will be more familiar to people, unless they're completely out of it, as part of his "attackers" for the purpose of this comparison), there is no question that you have his number - but even that is close, for me. You're sporting a Scholes who can be argued both up and down - he's sporting nothing but players who are a natural fit for the system. It all comes down to how you rate these Uruguayans, at the end of the day. For me, they're right up there, and their histories bear that out - but it's obviously debatable. We can discuss whether the general...if not opinion, then feeling (or rather, as the Germans say - ask @Balu - Stimmung - on here is Eurocentric or not, but it's a fact that players whose reputations mainly rest on what they achieved outside Europe (with the exception of Brazilian superstars) are less likely to impress than those who have played for well-known European sides.

I'm sorry, mate - but anto wins this for me.

You've done very well, though - and argued well too. Plus, I'm an idiot (and drunk, of course) so chances are most voters will go the other way.

 

[diarm]

MY FORWARDS WILL GO THROUGH YOUR DEFENCE LIKE A KNIFE THROUGH CHEESE.

And this arrogance is where you'll fall.

You're forgetting that my cheese is called Marco Tardelli and it is a hard, Italian cheese. It will blunt your knife and maybe even snap it. You need something multifaceted like a fine grater to conquer such a cheese and Nardahl without his 2 countrymen beside him is not that grater.

 

[MJJ]

That's new age nonsense based on tiki-taka. The fact is even tiki-taka at its height (which isn't what you are playing) couldn't stop other teams having 30-40% possession. I reckon I'll have about 40% possession here.

The key thing is WHAT YOU DO WITH YOUR POSSESSION. You are stuck in a quagmire, running into a wall, while every time I have the ball I'm unleashing hell on that high line of yours and the empty half of the pitch it offers me.

MY FORWARDS WILL GO THROUGH YOUR DEFENCE LIKE A KNIFE THROUGH CHEESE.

Gunnar Nordahl and Pepe Schiaffino, a proven pair, against the guy you mistake for Bergomi (he is no Bergomi) and "I am Sol". It shouldn't be allow, it's murderous.



This is what Schiaffino did to a better Magyar highline unleashing a forward I actually have on the bench because he simply isn't as good ad Nordahl:

___________

And then you have:

• Abbadie (proven with Schiaffino and Varela) most likely running into acres of empty flank.
  
• Facchetti attacking Gary Neville playing a high line (just pass it long and watch him burn him for pace).
  
• And Teófilo Cubillas, who nobody seems to give a damn about. I've been asked to keep gifs to a minimum so a link to Teófilo playing on the break will have to do.

So dishonest... Everyone knows modern players play far more internationals. Now run it on a gpg basis. Cheat.

He has excellent dribblers so will never face the too much possession problem?

The heart wants what the heart wants though MJJ.

You can visualise Schuster linking with Baggio though can't you? And you can see that one two Roberto just played with Völler. You can picture the little feint and the quick feet to bring him into the box and the shot he just placed at the bottom corner as if you were there in the stands watching it. You just know it's going in and even if the keeper somehow manages to get a hand on it, every part of you remembers how quickly Klinsmann will pounce on the rebound.

Sometimes you've just got to go with what you know.

(Only for chester)

I might just vote for you yet, will see tomorrow.

 

[diarm]

But this isn't some sort of opponent - that's the problem. You don't break down an insane defence with generic movements from players who aren't specialists at wing play. I'm sorry, but you simply don't..

But I'm not claiming too. I'm claiming that the movement of those players will drag his defensive shape around and the anything but generic movement of guys like Baggio and Völler will break them down through the middle. I will get crosses in from deep and have Klinsmann who is a beast in the air but I maintain that I don't need to be skinning his fullbacks in order to find a way through that defence.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

But I'm not claiming too. I'm claiming that the movement of those players will drag his defensive shape around and the anything but generic movement of guys like Baggio and Völler will break them down through the middle. I will get crosses in from deep and have Klinsmann who is a beast in the air but I maintain that I don't need to be skinning his fullbacks in order to find a way through that defence.

Sure, I get that. But what you're claiming is essentially that this will be ENOUGH - and I don't think it will be.

Enough, see? That's my mantra now.

RAWK style: It. Is. Not. Enough.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Anyway, we're going for penalties now, surely.

No pens so far - right?

 

[diarm]

Sure, I get that. But what you're claiming is essentially that this will be ENOUGH - and I don't think it will be.

Enough, see? That's my mantra now.

RAWK style: It. Is. Not. Enough.

Yeah that's fair enough. For me, I don't think he'll have "enough" of the ball to do this damage to my defence!

 

[diarm]

That's new age nonsense based on tiki-taka. The fact is even tiki-taka at its height (which isn't what you are playing) couldn't stop other teams having 30-40% possession. I reckon I'll have about 40% possession here.

Why are you trying to muddy the waters by mentioning tika-taka? What relevance does that have here? I'm not playing anything close to it because in my midfield I have Schuster and Tardelli (plus Baggio in front) who are equally adept at carrying the ball, driving forwards or dribbling into space as they are at passing quickly, cleverly and accurately. Scholes is hardly a tiki-taka player either.

The key thing is WHAT YOU DO WITH YOUR POSSESSION. You are stuck in a quagmire, running into a wall, while every time I have the ball I'm unleashing hell on that high line of yours and the empty half of the pitch it offers me.

A quagmire? With Baggio, Völler and Klinsmann? With Amoros overlapping and with Schuster or Tardelli joining the attack from midfield? Simply nonsense.

Gunnar Nordahl and Pepe Schiaffino, a proven pair, against the guy you mistake for Bergomi (he is no Bergomi) and "I am Sol". It shouldn't be allow, it's murderous.

Gunnar Nordahl and Pepe Schiaffino were 50% of a proven team of 4, not of a pair. And here, they are missing the more mobile half of that fantastic group.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Yeah that's fair enough. For me, I don't think he'll have "enough" of the ball to do this damage to my defence!

Well, that was what I considered - not your defence as such, though (because no matter how you try to sell that sandwich it tastes a little non-grand) - namely that you could actually deny him the ball to a sufficient degree, thus forcing a nil-nil outcome.

But I reckoned he would punish you with one perfectly executed counter. One-nil. The most beautiful result in football - the essence of the game.

But I'll settle for penalties. I love 'em. People who say they don't are either dishonest or...I don't know? Girls? Is that still an insult? I've always been rather fond of girls, actually, but they don't know much about football generally.

 

[diarm]

Well, that was what I considered - not your defence as such, though (because no matter how you try to sell that sandwich it tastes a little non-grand) - namely that you could actually deny him the ball to a sufficient degree, thus forcing a nil-nil outcome.

But I reckoned he would punish you with one perfectly executed counter. One-nil. The most beautiful result in football - the essence of the game.

But I'll settle for penalties. I love 'em. People who say they don't are either dishonest or...I don't know? Girls? Is that still an insult? I've always been rather fond of girls, actually, but they don't know much about football generally.

Fair enough. I think you're convinced already but I do stress that my defence isn't the liability that is being made out. Those are 4 fine internationals with over 250 caps between them for Italy, France and England. Yes his defence is better but then my attack is better balanced and in my opinion, more penetrative than his.

 

[Gio]

In fairness to anto, his comments above has to be taken in context.

Yes, there's no doubt an element of salesmanship in it, but he wasn't bigging up a nobody in order to talk down Nordahl. Erico is a legend - not in the modern sense, where my gran qualifies as a "legend", but an actual legend. Considered as the greatest Paraguayan player of all time by most - and considered a finisher of the highest order by football historians all over the place.

Yeah I had no beef with the Erico praise. It was a little careless from the rest of us that Anto was able to snap him in a nations draft at turn 11.