I wonder how many this is going to end in tears posts are gonna be in this thread.
Alexis Sanchez | Udinese: No Deal Yet
- Thread starter RDCR07
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If you took out every post in this thread that just contained a point that had already been made it would probably only be 2 pages long.
It seems pretty obvious to me that he'll end up at City.
I think Barca will dither and end up going for Rossi (which to be fair is more the player they need) as there will be less competition for him.
I think we'll be forced to choose between Modric and Sanchez and I think Ferguson will focus on Modric.
I'd love him here but it ain't going to happen.
I think Barca will dither and end up going for Rossi (which to be fair is more the player they need) as there will be less competition for him.
I think we'll be forced to choose between Modric and Sanchez and I think Ferguson will focus on Modric.
I'd love him here but it ain't going to happen.
Preach on brother
People just don't realise how good Sanchez is and can become. I know anyone can look good in a Youtube comp, but they're no exagerration where this lad is concerned.
Seeing as Sanchez has apparently now become potentially as good as Messi and a player you do anything you can to sign maybe you could address a few concerns:
1. He gives the ball away at an absurdly high rate. He loses the ball basically twice as often per match as other high usage dribblers like Messi, Ronaldo, Nani, Reyes, Pastore, Nasri and Hazard.
2. Given how much he is on the ball (to quote gambit28 he is "quite literally the focal point of all of Udineses attacks") he is not creative enough. Nani, Giggs, Valencia and Rooney all create more goal scoring chances per match than he does. Nasri, Reyes, Hazard, Götze, Pastore, Di Maria etc etc all create considerably more than he does.
He's in a shite team given the role to start off something, even Giggsy as much as I adore him loses the ball often... Your playing in a position to try something so it'll come off sometimes but in other times, it may lead to a goal..... Why not look at his goal/assist stats... Maybe that'll make you happier than trying to just find the negatives of Sanchez.
Given how much he is on the ball means you don't watch the Seria A so how can you possibly know that Sanchez doesn't create enough... ?
You do know that the focal point means that he'll be double teamed, man-marked more right ?
And you do know that he was been played in the hole where only Pastore.. ( Or even at times Pastore plays mostly on the left ) is the only player there that has mostly been played in the Centre...
Goetze usually drifts in, usually I see him in a free role starting on the flanks, Nasri RW, Reyes ( Who would give a feck about him when he's 28 now ), and Di Maria ( Fanny ) Is a LW...
I'd say wingers would have a lot more of the ball and would have the chance to put the assist in a lot more... But lets not forget that the wingers get more space because the hole player is the one who spreads play and lures the players to create that room... They never get credit though because people will look at youtube and look at the stat table and consider a player with low stats completely gobshite....
Good to see some sense. This stats show us that he's not the second coming after J. I said it before and repeat that maybe we should concentrate on Modric/likewise instead of forking up £30-35m of a player we maybe don't need.
I prefer the safe option and that we go for Young. English and proven EPL quality. Let someone else go for this high profile signings.
We dont have Plan B, but we have Plan M
He keeps repeating what everyone else has said though... blatant plagiarism if you ask me & possibly worthy of infraction points too
...dont be gettin your snickers in a twirl Palm M... only jokes mate... only jokes.. :-)
Found this Twitter page, Italian Opta stats it would seem.
Twitter
Some of the ones about Sanchez are quite telling.
15 June. Sanchez won the most free kicks and penalties in Serie A.
15 June. Only Eto'o completed more dribbles than Sanchez in Serie A (94 to 93)
13 June. Sanchez involved in 28% of Udinese's goals last season.
Only 6 assists, which isn't so good, but that's 5 (I think) more than Gareth Bale who is the greatest player to walk the earth.
Still, they're only stats.
Some of the ones about Sanchez are quite telling.
15 June. Sanchez won the most free kicks and penalties in Serie A.
15 June. Only Eto'o completed more dribbles than Sanchez in Serie A (94 to 93)
13 June. Sanchez involved in 28% of Udinese's goals last season.
Only 6 assists, which isn't so good, but that's 5 (I think) more than Gareth Bale who is the greatest player to walk the earth.
Still, they're only stats.
You misinterpret the statistics. I checked up on your numbers. Dispossessed does not mean that he lose the ball. Only that he fails to try to beat his man.
Actually, he dont lose the ball more often than....you guessed it....Ronaldo!
According to OPTA:
"If he is in possession but not attempting to “beat” his man, then he will get a dispossessed."
But this reinforces my impression of him being a player who is not very good at creating time or space for himself. He certainly would been a frustrating player for a period. On the other hand, when players move to better teams they will have more options, play the ball faster and therefor have fewer of these.
Udinese finished 4th in the league. Unless your contention is that Sanchez by himself is so good that he turns a shite team into a Champions League caliber team then clearly he isn't in a shite team.
Giggs does lose the ball often, comparing their passing completion rates 73% vs 75% the difference is small. The big difference comes in how often they are dispossessed and how often they turn the ball over. Giggs is dispossessed 1.2 times per match and commits 1.2 turnovers per match. Sanchez is dispossessed 5.3 times per match and commits 2.0 turnovers. Sanchez gives the ball away far more than Giggs.
"Why not look at his goals/assists instead of his negatives" - sure, let's just ignore all of a player's negatives when assessing his value, that way everyone looks like a superstar.
"You don't watch Serie A" - I appreciate your skepticism. No sarcasm, I really do. Including the World Cup I have watched Sanchez 12 times this season which is more than some and less than others. Now if you could address my point please.
The focal point comment came straight from gambit28 who I know has watched Sanchez play more than I have, therefore I took his word for it.
Sanchez created 1.61 goal scoring chances per match. Nani, Giggs and Valencia all created more than 2.30. Rooney created 2.14. Your handwaving over players' positions is not convincing. All the players I listed are players who are frequently on the ball and whose main function is creating goal scoring chances for themselves and others. Sanchez creates far fewer goal scoring chances per match than any of them. I could also have listed Özil, Sneijder, Fabregas, Lucho, Gourcuff, Martin and countless others if it's strictly AMs you want.
So to repeat, compared to other creative attacking players, both wingers and players who play through the middle, including 4 players on our own team, Sanchez does not create enough goal scoring chances per match.
Nowhere did I say Sanchez was gobshite. Nowhere did I even imply it. I took exception to the claim that saying we don't need Sanchez is like saying we don't need Messi (a laughable claim obviously) and that he is an exceptional talent that one must do whatever they can to sign.
That is a curious definition of dispossessed. Actually I don't understand it. If he receives the ball from a teammate, then holds the ball for a while without attempting to dribble past a player, then passes the ball to another teammate, he is "dispossessed"? That doesn't make any sense. Do you have a source for that quote? Not saying you're wrong I would just like to find out more about it.
if we sign him, i'm going to stick a saddle on him and ride about the Trafford Centre car park while Leprechauns spontaneously combust under the weary gaze of imortal unicorns while picking their teeth with liberated grandfather clocks
So what you're saying is, Fergie & all our scouts have got it completely wrong - the same with Barca, Juve, Inter, Chelsea? Sanchez really isnt that good at all & Reyes is much better!
FEATURE Opta's Football Action Definitions
In lack of better words I guess.
Its not a very accurate description either. I would assume that if he plays a useful pass forward, he will not get a "dispossessed". But if he (for instance) gets the ball, does some step-overs and pass it backwards.
You are all going to love Alexis when he eventually signs with us
So what you're saying is, Fergie & all our scouts have got it completely wrong - the same with Barca, Juve, Inter, Chelsea? Sanchez really isnt that good at all & Reyes is much better!
Nowhere did I say that or even imply it. For you to even suggest that was what I said points to a staggering failure of reading comprehension on your part.
It's like a double edged sword this one, if he signs for us then we've signed a retard, do we really want a retard in our squad?
I understand your point of view. At the same time one should note that all of the chances created comes from open play (he does not take set pieces?!). Its also worth mentioning that while Man Utd had 56% possession, Udinese had 49. We had 54 goals from open play, Udinese had 30. Man Utd make twenty persent more passes each game.
If we are interested in Sanchez, and I think that is a big if, I think Ferguson consider him a player that will give us penetration (someone will probably have a smart remark on this one).
Not as much as Giggsy if you believe all you read.
To quote the relevant passage:
The way I interpret that is the way I originally interpreted it. The player who tackles gets a tackle, what the other player gets depends on what he was doing. If he tried to dribble the player he gets an Unsuccessful Take-on but if he wasn't (i.e. he was normally dispossessed) he gets a Dispossessed. So I believe my original interpretation was correct.
"He loses the ball basically twice as often per match as other high usage dribblers like Messi, Ronaldo, Nani, Reyes, Pastore, Nasri and Hazard.
He is not creative enough. Nani, Giggs, Valencia and Rooney all create more goal scoring chances per match than he does. Nasri, Reyes, Hazard, Götze, Pastore, Di Maria etc etc all create considerably more than he does..."
To me, reading that - all i hear is that he's not very good & all those lot mentioned are better. No offence man, but you should have watched this lad play before making judgements based on stats alone. He's fecking quality & will be one of the best players in the world soon enough!
Those are all fair points and factors worth considering for sure. His numbers should be "rounded up" somewhat (just how much is of course up for debate) due to the external factors of his team. And if he joined United his numbers would probably go up. I don't dispute any of this, the thing I took exception to was the growing sentiment in this thread that Sanchez is already a superstar and the kind of exceptional talent you do whatever it takes to sign, even if there is no immediate need for him in your team.
The definition is in terms of the defender for the first two sentences.
If the defender successfully gets a tackle then this tackles column goes +1 so to say
Scenario 2: The offensive player beats the defender then the defender gets an unsuccessful take on
The last statement is in terms of the offensive player
There is a scenario where there's a battle between a defender and an attacking player. Say Valencia and Ashley cole, If valencia takes the ball past cole, then cole gets a unsuccessful take on
But if valencia is forced to pass the ball either which way (that is without having the ball in the next moment) then he is dispossessed. The pass can either be offensive or defensive.
Thats how i read it atleast.
On a completely unrelated note could someone please remove the ***-ification of +1 and everything similar, makes reading stuff a tad difficult
Exactly, 4th in the league, over Juventus... Rotated into a new role.. Behind the hole... and yet you talk about being dispossessed etc... that you were spouting on, creative numbers and stats...
So does this stat mean that Sanchez is shite ? To be honest, Titus bramble's dispossession stat might look even better than Zidanes...
Its something you should excess, but keep it away as there is end product... No ? Unless you are trying to imply that he is the perfect player... Even Maradona gives the ball away at times, but their in the position to try something off so its do or die making this stat fluctuate even more...
I mean, if we were to consider buying an attacking wide/ behind the hole player, out of 100, dispossesion stats should only considered slightly, is not worth the debate imo. ( Unless that 5.3 times are stupid back passes that fustrate like Nani's 2nd year ).
Theres much more to a player than the stats, was only quoting that as your only implying that Sanchez is crap because his dispossession stats... Why are we going after Modric when he's stats look crappier than maybe J.Spearing ?
Then again, why don't you add the pass to the assistant to then ? Maybe Modric's stat will look more impressive... The thing I was trying to point out is that there is much more things to prove than the stats you are trying to imply.
Also playing in an inferior team to all the players you mentioned which are in a different league make stats even more stupid to judge a player... Stats aren't everything, they are just numbers on the board... Imagine Messi dribbling past 4 players, passing it out to Alves and Alves crosses to Villa... "GOAL!" Will Messi get any credit ? No then if you were implying by just the stat board.
So basically your trying to summarize that Sanchez is crappier than all the players you mentioned because his stats look shite... Just wait till he moves to Barca/Chelsea/Citeh...
I said the stats were gobshite, I wouldn't judge a player souly on the reasons you mentioned....
"He loses the ball basically twice as often per match as other high usage dribblers like Messi, Ronaldo, Nani, Reyes, Pastore, Nasri and Hazard.
He is not creative enough. Nani, Giggs, Valencia and Rooney all create more goal scoring chances per match than he does. Nasri, Reyes, Hazard, Götze, Pastore, Di Maria etc etc all create considerably more than he does..."
To me, reading that - all i hear is that he's not very good & all those lot mentioned are better. No offence man, but you should have watched this lad play before making judgements based on stats alone. He's fecking quality & will be one of the best players in the world soon enough!
Your goalpost shifting and handwaving is not convincing.
I raised two valid questions about Sanchez as a player. Nowhere did I say Sanchez was a bad player. Nor did I say he is "not very good". I did not say those other players are, overall, better than him, even if they are better than him at the two specific issues I highlighted. I took exception to your earlier ridiculous hyperbole saying we don't need Sanchez is like saying we don't need Messi and your statement that this is the kind of exceptional talent that you do whatever you can to sign, both things I might add which you have still yet to back up with anything other than "well because I say so". No offense intended, of course, man.
So what you're saying is, Fergie & all our scouts have got it completely wrong - the same with Barca, Juve, Inter, Chelsea? Sanchez really isnt that good at all & Reyes is much better!
In this case i got the feeling that we re really interested. However i m sure that fergie might 'fake' his interest in certain players in order not disclose his real transfer targets
I always enjoy your posts. They have a definitive quality about them. But since this particular stat doesn't have a very clear definition, it would be wrong to draw any kind of conclusion from the analysis of the same.
Whilst i don't agree with RHD's tirade against you, We cannot form a basis for signing or not signing a player based on stats since the amount of variables involved is quite large. The opposition's style of playing, the teams style of play, the players position, the movement of the players around him, so on and so forth.
Yep, the 2 points mentioned wouldn't be a definite conclusion to say no to a player... Its strange too because after you mentioned that you look like you like Sanchez but you were just trying to point out that he does have the negatives...
Contradiction or Sarcasm ? I'm trying to read you but maybe I'm not seeing your valid point.
Contradiction or Sarcasm ? I'm trying to read you but maybe I'm not seeing your valid point.
Really? Where did I say Sanchez was shite? Please point it out because if I said it somewhere then I retract it.
Nowhere did I say Sanchez is shite. Nowhere did I say that because he is dispossessed at an absurd rate that that means he is shite. Nor did I say that because he creates fewer goal scoring chances per match that that means he is shite.
Why are you trying to infer something from my words that was never there in the first place? All I did was highlight two issues, one relating to how often he is dispossessed and the other to how creative he is, that are relevant to this thread. Why are you taking it to mean that I am attempting to evaluate Sanchez as a player? I have made no evaluation of Sanchez as a player in this thread, the only thing I have evaluated is his dispossession rate and his chance creation rate, and even those I merely highlighted and brought up as a point of conversation.
Cheers Clique.
Like I mentioned in my previous post, I never meant my post to be an evaluation of Sanchez as a whole nor a comprehensive argument for signing or not signing him. Reading back my original post I don't think there was anything in that post that implied I was doing either of the above, but apparently I was not clear enough about this. I will make sure to be even more specific about my posts in the future.
God, this is becoming boring now, can't he make his mind up! :-)
Well where did you say Sanchez was not shite then... All the negatism's you implied in your initial point did lead me to summarize that you were concerned about how poor Sanchez was... shite
I was merely pointing out the fact that I wouldn't consider Sanchez alone with the two points mentioned...
Then you listed a bunch of players, a bunch of stats to defend the claim and all I did was point out that your 2 concerns alone were not enough to judge a player buy his stats alone ( If you havent' watched enough of him )...
The big reason why I quoted because its terrible to judge flair/attacking players by the number of dispossession stats because there are many variables to consider just like Clinique mentioned... Also adding creativity stats to go along with it just kills off good players too...
Does Scholes Create a lot ? Its something that wouldn't be much of a concern if you know you've watched the player enough you see.
They might be small issues, but he will be a totally new player if he did opt for us.
And to summarize it, I've been watching most of Udinese's 2nd half of the season souly because of Sanchez and was praying they won't make it to the CL because his price will fluctuate like what is happening now. ( Not that I didn't see him in the World cup and a few highlights at the start of the Seria A here and there ).
He is a bloody good player, stat-wise or not... I wouldn't mind much and at 22 compared to Ronaldo back then, I think Sanchez has just as much potential.
What I like about Sanchez is that he'll also try to create and pass while being 1 on 1 he will definitely have a go... His more of a Messi than a Ronaldo and isn't that the type of player we are crying out for since we did lose Ronaldo ?
He'd be a lovely player to have and the prospect of us really signing the boy is mouth drooling...
Oh come on, that is rather harsh. He just said he wasn't creative enough and compared Sanchez to others. Doesn't make him shite nor does it imply him thinking he's shite.
Read the first paragraph which he starts it off with a bit of sarcasm and then read his first point...
Try to imply that as something positive... I tried my best and wouldn't have wasted sheer time if it said that Sanchez is a great player, however it would have been better if his disposession stat didn't look that well....
I did try.
Try to imply that as something positive... I tried my best and wouldn't have wasted sheer time if it said that Sanchez is a great player, however it would have been better if his disposession stat didn't look that well....
I did try.
What has happened to the Sanchez thread? multi-quote wars leave only victims.
I'm all but done.... Awaiting good news about Sanchez.
Man City on verge of Sanchez signing
17.06.11 | Dave Williams
Manchester City scout Attilio Lombardo maintains they can “secure a deal for Alexis Sanchez pretty quickly,” reports Football Italia
City are competing with Manchester United, Barcelona, Juventus and Inter Milan for the Udinese player’s signature.
“We hope to secure a deal for Sanchez pretty quickly,” Lombardo is quoted as telling La Tercera newspaper in Spain.
Italian radio station Radio Mercato also confirm Manchester City are in pole position for the Chilean talent.
It’s reported Roberto Mancini’s club have offered €35m plus midfielder Vladimir Weiss to bring Sanchez to Eastlands.
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