Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?

[Revan]

Hang on. Is this the first time you've heard of R+L=J?

Nope. I was talking about Others and Starks being allies, R+L=J was easy to spot.

Some interesting things that I read there:
- 'Winter is coming' might be not Starks preparing for Winter, but a warning for other people there that when winter will come, we'll reveal our true face and the shit will go real.
- Starks being as representatives of the Others and while there is a Stark on Winterfell the pact is on. But if you remove Starks from there, then the pact is void and we will attack.
- The Children of Forest being very important there. Maybe a three pact alliance between Starks, Others and them.
- Sam mentions that he found the archives only for six hundred and a few Lord Commanders (while there are a bit more than 800). That constitutes with the time than Andals came (i.e history being completely changed).
- Night Watch being made for entirely different purposes, maybe a last defense by Starks instead of a defense against the Others.
- Storms End was build by a 'children' which is believed to be Brandon The Builder who established the Stark line and build the Wall. 'The children' as a kid, or the children as a children of the forest which means that the Starks now are partially children of the forest. They aren't wargs and skingchangers by coincidence.
- Boltons wearing Starks skins on the past. Boltons wanted to be Starks and it was a big 'feck off' to them. You think that only you can 'change' skins, we can do that too, see if you like it.
- Bran being extremely important in the end. I always thought that but on an another way. He might be the ultimate commander of the Others (possibly the great Other himself) to help Starks regain the North. Bloodraven - who is very smart, had magical powers before (the hand of the king around a century between the current events) and was Lord Commander in the past meaning that he may had special access to some lost archives - may know the true goal of the nightwatch. He was waiting for Bran since before his born, in fact since before Bran's father born.

Very unlikely for these things to be true, but very interesting and mind blowing.

 

[Revan]

The wall was built before the nights king became lord commander and ran of with the other.
Dany is Azor Ahai and dragons are the lightbringers. Sure of that.

Yep. The nights king was the 13th (coincidence, the terse number?) Lord Commander.

 

[nimic]

I think assuming that the Starks are somehow alligned with the Others because of the Night's King is a big mistake. There's really nothing to suggest that except for the Night's King possibly being a Stark, and there's the fact that he was eventually taken down by the Starks.

 

[nimic]

Yeah one of the consequences of each book taking a thousand years to come out is that fans have discussed everything to death, such that I doubt there'll be any major surprises in the last few books. R+L=J is all but confirmed.

I don't know about that. The Wheel of Time was going on for over twenty years, and there were still surprises and plot reveals to come in the last few books. Obviously some things had been figured out, but a lot of those were only figured out by some, and were only considered theories.

 

[Nighteyes]

- Bran being extremely important in the end. I always thought that but on an another way. He might be the ultimate commander of the Others (possibly the great Other himself) to help Starks regain the North. Bloodraven - who is very smart, had magical powers before (the hand of the king around a century between the current events) and was Lord Commander in the past meaning that he may had special access to some lost archives - may know the true goal of the nightwatch. He was waiting for Bran since before his born, in fact since before Bran's father born.

Very unlikely for these things to be true, but very interesting and mind blowing.

The whole Northern storyline is very interesting and Bloodraven in particular. For a start I'd like to know how he ended up in that cave. Seems very weird that no one mentions him at all on the wall. And since I've read Dunk and Egg I wonder what happened to that dragon egg he had in the last one as well.

Storms End was probably built by the children of the forest given that the walls are magical.

 

[sullydnl]

Diverting Jon and Bran towards the mutineers at Craster's was a smart move I think. A good way of delaying their progress and finding something interesting for them to do. Adding Locke into the mix is great too, it's a shame he probably won't be around for much longer.

Also, if that was the Night's King then that was probably the first time the TV show has shown us something that's yet to come in the books? Thought that kind of thing would bother me but it's actually pretty cool. Soon it'll be at the stage where even book readers can start expecting a few surprises.

 

[Stick]

Holy shit. So Benjen is Darth Maul?

It is very possible although I always said that Benjen's only contribution on the saga would be to convince Jon to go there.

But Darth Maul is a white Walker and the baby scene shows that the wight walkers are born but the wights are zombie remains of people who used to be normal. So wouldnt that mean that Benjen is a wight and not a white walker? I'm confusing myself here.

 

[Revan]

But Darth Maul is a white Walker and the baby scene shows that the wight walkers are born but the wights are zombie remains of people who used to be normal. So wouldnt that mean that Benjen is a wight and not a white walker? I'm confusing myself here.

We don't know much about The Others yet. Wights are resurrected by the Others but we don't know if Benjen has been dead in the first place, or he was simply transforrmed.

Of course, only a theory based on feck all.

 

[JustAFan]

A little weird that the mutineers would just hang out at Crasters given that they know what is heading their way. A massive wildling army and they have also had run ins with The Others and/or the army of wights. So essentially even though they have food, wine and women they have to know they are doomed. But maybe they just are not that smart.

Now granted heading back towards the wall has its difficulties, mainly the Nights Watch, but we also know the watch can not be everyplace at once and there are well known ways over and/or around the wall.

I would think they would try to get further south, rather than just waiting to be killed by wildlings or wights.

 

[Cheesy]

Has anyone thought about the posibility of The Other in fact being the good God, while R'hllor being the evil God. It would be very conter intuitive but it will also be very George RR Martin.

I don't think it'll the 'good' god as such, in fact I don't think the series has any gods in it at all, but I definitely don't think the Others are completely evil either.

Spoiler

If the stuff about the Night's King is true, and the Night's King is a Stark, then it builds a possible connection between the Starks/Others which may indicate they're not completely evil like we thought before.

Certainly, the show has let us see that they're not mindless creatures that kill on sight. They've clearly got some sort of strategy to what they do and by the looks of it, some sort of hierarchy and order as well.

 

[Cheesy]

A little weird that the mutineers would just hang out at Crasters given that they know what is heading their way. A massive wildling army and they have also had run ins with The Others and/or the army of wights. So essentially even though they have food, wine and women they have to know they are doomed. But maybe they just are not that smart.

Now granted heading back towards the wall has its difficulties, mainly the Nights Watch, but we also know the watch can not be everyplace at once and there are well known ways over and/or around the wall.

I would think they would try to get further south, rather than just waiting to be killed by wildlings or wights.

It seems like they would maybe try to carry on from what Craster did with his sons in the long-term. They know they're doomed if they go south at all, but if they carried on Craster's plan in an attempt to sort of buy protection from the Others, then they'd possibly be safe. Assuming it keeps getting colder up north though, they'd struggle eventually.

 

[nimic]

Spoiler

If the stuff about the Night's King is true, and the Night's King is a Stark, then it builds a possible connection between the Starks/Others which may indicate they're not completely evil like we thought before.

I don't think so. Everything we know about the Night's King tells us that he was a pretty terrible person. He was also eventually removed by Starks, so I'm not seeing the Stark/Others connection.

I do think, or at least hope, that they're not the outright "bad guys", though.

 

[Patchbeard]

A little weird that the mutineers would just hang out at Crasters given that they know what is heading their way. A massive wildling army and they have also had run ins with The Others and/or the army of wights. So essentially even though they have food, wine and women they have to know they are doomed. But maybe they just are not that smart.

Now granted heading back towards the wall has its difficulties, mainly the Nights Watch, but we also know the watch can not be everyplace at once and there are well known ways over and/or around the wall.

I would think they would try to get further south, rather than just waiting to be killed by wildlings or wights.

Cheesy gives a valid reason, though I doubt that lot are capable of that much reason.

At Crasters they can pretend to live like kings, shagging, drinking and eating in warmth.

Or they could head out into the bitter cold, dragging all their food, supplies and a load of unwilling crasters wives with them (or give up on the shagging), and probably die of frostbite.

 

[Nighteyes]

I don't think so. Everything we know about the Night's King tells us that he was a pretty terrible person. He was also eventually removed by Starks, so I'm not seeing the Stark/Others connection.

I do think, or at least hope, that they're not the outright "bad guys", though.

Was he a terrible person though? All we know is that he fell for a 'other' woman and became a other himself after he bedded her. All the atrocities he committed were after he changed. And we know that all records of him were wiped out (including his name) so maybe the Starks were trying to hide something.

 

[Cheesy]

I don't think so. Everything we know about the Night's King tells us that he was a pretty terrible person. He was also eventually removed by Starks, so I'm not seeing the Stark/Others connection.

I do think, or at least hope, that they're not the outright "bad guys", though.

You know what they say though, "history is written by the victors". Not saying he's a stand-out guy or anything, but for all we know he wasn't a terrible, evil person. Stories can often change and get exaggerated or become false over thousands of years. I definitely don't think they're a race of complete evil who just want to eradicate humanity for the sake of it, although they may still be the 'bad guys' in a sense.

 

[Cheesy]

Cheesy gives a valid reason, though I doubt that lot are capable of that much reason.

At Crasters they can pretend to live like kings, shagging, drinking and eating in warmth.

Or they could head out into the bitter cold, dragging all their food, supplies and a load of unwilling crasters wives with them (or give up on the shagging), and probably die of frostbite.

They're kind of screwed either way really. They won't know any other way to get back into the Wall other than through it, where they'd just be killed as deserters. The only other viable thing they could possibly try to do would be to serve the Wildlings and join them.

 

[Stick]

We don't know much about The Others yet. Wights are resurrected by the Others but we don't know if Benjen has been dead in the first place, or he was simply transforrmed.

Of course, only a theory based on feck all.

Yeah and I always thought Benjen was Coldhands but that wouldn't work either by my theory! Time to reread the books............to the library.

 

[JustAFan]

It seems like they would maybe try to carry on from what Craster did with his sons in the long-term. They know they're doomed if they go south at all, but if they carried on Craster's plan in an attempt to sort of buy protection from the Others, then they'd possibly be safe. Assuming it keeps getting colder up north though, they'd struggle eventually.

there is still the army of wildlings moving their way, trying to get out of the way of The Others, and certainly they are not going to like former crows very much.

So it probably just is a case of either not being bright enough to logic it out or just deciding to live out their days eating, drinking and having their way with the women. They are obviously being strong-armed into following Craster 2.0 as they have no guts to stand up to him. Thinking will not be a strong point amongst that group.

 

[Scrumpet]

How much do they really know about what the wildlings are up to?

 

[JustAFan]

How much do they really know about what the wildlings are up to?

I had thought by the time they were over-run by the Others' wights that they had a good idea that Mance has massed the wildlings together and was preparing to head to the wall. But maybe not, maybe they really have no clue what is heading their way.

 

[Revan]

I don't think so. Everything we know about the Night's King tells us that he was a pretty terrible person. He was also eventually removed by Starks, so I'm not seeing the Stark/Others connection.

I do think, or at least hope, that they're not the outright "bad guys", though.

Well yeah, but the history can be manipulated. I think that GRRM said himself that not all legends mentioned are neccesarily true. We know how much influence on these kind of things has Citadel, we know that the archives for Lord Commanders before the Andals aren't available.

I hope that GRRM has a big surprise or two for us. While Others being the baddies sound rational, in the end of the day it would become the classic good vs evil story, and until now GRRM has been very careful to go entirely gray.

 

[nimic]

Yes, I'd agree with that. It just seems odd that after having an entire series where the entire point is "everything is grey", you'd suddenly end it with a proper good against evil fight. I don't mind it if the Others continue to be the main antagonists, that much is obvious, but it would be nice if that could happen while portraying the Others as essentially just another race, if one with wildly different motivations. That's part of what has always bothered me about fantasy, as much as I love the genre. You usually have entire races of creatures that it is simply agreed on are "evil".

I hope that GRRM has a big surprise or two for us. While Others being the baddies sound rational, in the end of the day it would become the classic good vs evil story, and until now GRRM has been very careful to go entirely gray.

You don't say

 

[nimic]

You know what they say though, "history is written by the victors". Not saying he's a stand-out guy or anything, but for all we know he wasn't a terrible, evil person. Stories can often change and get exaggerated or become false over thousands of years. I definitely don't think they're a race of complete evil who just want to eradicate humanity for the sake of it, although they may still be the 'bad guys' in a sense.

They don't need to be a completely evil race for there to be evil characters attached to them. Humanity isn't evil, but Joffrey was. I'm all about looking for the red herrings, but when the only thing we know about someone says they were a certain way, I don't think there's much point in speculating that maybe they were the other way.

 

[Revan]

They don't need to be a completely evil race for there to be evil characters attached to them. Humanity isn't evil, but Joffrey was. I'm all about looking for the red herrings, but when the only thing we know about someone says they were a certain way, I don't think there's much point in speculating that maybe they were the other way.

We know a legend niMic. Pretty much everybody on Westeros thinks that Nightwalkers are only a legend made to scare kids. There are no records for them.

It wouldn't be a problem at all if they are completely different to what we think they are.

 

[nimic]

I'm ready to be proved wrong, I just don't think this particular theory is very likely. I do hope they don't turn out to be outright baddies, though, but then Coldhands has probably already proven that "they" aren't.

 

[Revan]

I'm ready to be proved wrong, I just don't think this particular theory is very likely. I do hope they don't turn out to be outright baddies, though, but then Coldhands has probably already proven that "they" aren't.

Is Coldhands an Other though. Also it may be possible that they have fractions too (hopefully).

Agree, this theory is far less likely to happen then a full sclae war against them in the end. However - like you - I hope that they have more depth then just being the baddies like Orks and Uruk Hai on LOTR.

 

[Neil_Buchanan]

As if those idiots managed to catch 2 direwolfs, I like them adding extra bits and making the odd change from the books but that is too unrealistic.

 

[NoLogo]

Is Coldhands an Other though. Also it may be possible that they have fractions too (hopefully).

Agree, this theory is far less likely to happen then a full sclae war against them in the end. However - like you - I hope that they have more depth then just being the baddies like Orks and Uruk Hai on LOTR.

That's true we don't really know if he is a white walker albeit he seems to share a lot of similarities with them, being undead for example, he doesn't have their blue eyes so it might very well be that he is something different we don't really know about yet.

I do think somehow that a full scale war against the white walkers and the wight will come. I guess it will somehow be the focal point that will console the different forces competing for the throne in an combined effort to deal with the new threat.

I also wouldn't put it past Martin that the competing forces for the throne fail to overcome their differences and the realm will drown in blood and ice and everyone will be dead by the end.

 

[NoLogo]

As if those idiots managed to catch 2 direwolfs, I like them adding extra bits and making the odd change from the books but that is too unrealistic.

Yeah thought that as well. How did Ghost even end up there? Did Jon leave him there when he left with Qhorin Halfhand in the TV show? Can't quite remember if he came along with them or not.

 

[mitChley]

Diverting Jon and Bran towards the mutineers at Craster's was a smart move I think. A good way of delaying their progress and finding something interesting for them to do. Adding Locke into the mix is great too, it's a shame he probably won't be around for much longer.

Also, if that was the Night's King then that was probably the first time the TV show has shown us something that's yet to come in the books? Thought that kind of thing would bother me but it's actually pretty cool. Soon it'll be at the stage where even book readers can start expecting a few surprises.

Also means he won't get the horrific death at the hands of Ser Gregor.

 

[Scorpy]

Maybe the horns are not supposed to be/form a crown at all. Maybe the horns are just a trait of this new type of white walkers that we saw in the last episode. Maybe the Night's King will not be relevant to the story and that wasn't him. After all, before he stepped towards the baby, next to him there were others just like him, differentiating from any white walker we've seen so far in the series. If we assume that these white walkers (dark silhouettes) form some sort of a higher council and represent the obvious hierarchy among them, the idea of them being the original white walkers that kick started the whole ''race'' seems plausible. If that's the case (no matter how unlikely), maybe the only white walker with a higher rank is the Great Other himself.

 

[Zak Smith]

Does anyone else things there been a modernising of the script this season? As in some of the language, or maybe accents, I can't quite place it but sometimes it just seems out of place.

 

[Everest Red]

You don't ask for much do you.

I've read the first three books and I know of Lady Stark. Anything happens with the dragons?

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

I've read the first three books and I know of Lady Stark. Anything happens with the dragons?

Keep reading it gets better

 

[Everest Red]

Keep reading it gets better

Those books are huge and I'm not spoiler sensitive(obviously)..

 

[MG]

I actually love the whole Bran-in-Craster's-keep deviation from the book. I think it's brilliant.

I was wondering what they were going to do with Bran because he's already Beyond the Wall and all he's got to do for the rest of the series (Book 3) is move a bit further north, so it's good that they've given him a storyline. I think it could be really interesting. I reckon Bran will meet the children of the forest at the end of this series, in the last episode.

I wish they'd done Dany taking over Meereen a little bit better. It was pretty good, just think they could have shown more of a slave revolt. I wonder how it will go down with the TV viewers when they learn that Dany is staying in Meereen. Hehe.

 

[Nickosaur]

I actually love the whole Bran-in-Craster's-keep deviation from the book. I think it's brilliant.

I was wondering what they were going to do with Bran because he's already Beyond the Wall and all he's got to do for the rest of the series (Book 3) is move a bit further north, so it's good that they've given him a storyline. I think it could be really interesting. I reckon Bran will meet the children of the forest at the end of this series, in the last episode.

I wish they'd done Dany taking over Meereen a little bit better. It was pretty good, just think they could have shown more of a slave revolt. I wonder how it will go down with the TV viewers when they learn that Dany is staying in Meereen. Hehe.

Almost certain as the last episode is called "The Children".

Glad someone else like the Bran changes. I agree, thought they were pretty well done and Bran and his group need to do something before meeting the children of the forest. It's actually quite refreshing to have such major changes in the TV series and not knowing exactly where they are going to go with it. The White Walker scene at the end especially showed us how it can really surprise us book readers still.

 

[Siorac]

Keep reading it gets better

After the first three books? Not really. Storm of Swords is the peak of the series so far.

Almost certain as the last episode is called "The Children".

Glad someone else like the Bran changes. I agree, thought they were pretty well done and Bran and his group need to do something before meeting the children of the forest. It's actually quite refreshing to have such major changes in the TV series and not knowing exactly where they are going to go with it. The White Walker scene at the end especially showed us how it can really surprise us book readers still.

The thing is, if the Bran parts were cut entirely from the books as well as the TV show it wouldn't change a thing, really; if anything it would improve the entertainment value. The only reason I'm remotely curious about where both Martin and the show creators are going with the Bran storyline is that he'll surely have to play some major role to justify his existence after failing to do so over five books, during which his parts have become progressively more dull and tedious. Even Sansa has contributed far more up to this point.

 

[NoLogo]

I agree it's probably best to rewrite some of Brans stuff for the show as him endlessly wandering through the land beyond the wall wouldn't really be exciting.

 

[SilentWitness]

How good are the books from 3 onwards? Much improvement on the first two?

I've been trying to find an excuse to finish them, but i didn't find the first two engaging.