Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?

I don't think they intended the scene to be taken as rape. The director of the episode has said that it "“becomes consensual by the end because anything for them ultimately results in a turn-on, especially a power struggle.".

It's definitely rape. She's still saying for him to stop at the end of the scene.

And in the book it's definitely consensual. She says 'in there, you're safe now, you're back' or something, and wants it.

Terrible idea. Jaime is supposed to be getting better, this just sets him back massively to viewers who haven't read the books.
 
On a good note, I liked the scene before that scene with Tywin and Tommen.
 
It's definitely rape. She's still saying for him to stop at the end of the scene.

And in the book it's definitely consensual. She says 'in there, you're safe now, you're back' or something, and wants it.

Terrible idea. Jaime is supposed to be getting better, this just sets him back massively to viewers who haven't read the books.

Exactly this, it was clear cut rape and made zero sense for his character development.

The director's comments strike me as odd though, he makes it sound like he was intending for it to come across the way it does in the books. This either means that a) he directed it very poorly b) he doesn't really understand what's rape and what isn't or c) they've decided to turn Jamie into a rapist and the director is talking nonsense.

I don't mind changes from the books but this is totally at odds with the way the character is developing. I read a piece on the AV Club that pointed out this wasn't the first time this has happened either, Danaerys and Drogo's wedding night was far less rapey in the books too. Weird decision making.
 
In the desert? Pretty sure that's filmed in morocco so there should be plenty of extras that fit with the established ethnicity of that area.

The two reasons I saw given were 1) difficulty getting enough extras and 2) apparently the slaves are supposed to have been taken from all over the world anyway so it isn't a big deal.
 
Dany's storyline really has become a problem. The scene I'm most looking forward to is the one where she announces she's going to stay and rule in Meereen. That's going to go down really well.
 
Yep, gonna be bad. I really hope they play up the fact that her decision to free slaves without any plan for what happens after was a stupid. The Mereen plot line might be more palatable if people call her out for being a moron, particularly in light of last year's smug liberator ending.

I guess a lot will depend on how interesting the Greyjoys and Martells prove to be. They'll have to carry a lot of the load from next season on. That said, if Tyrion ever meets up with Dany her storyline will definitely improve.
 
Exactly this, it was clear cut rape and made zero sense for his character development.

The director's comments strike me as odd though, he makes it sound like he was intending for it to come across the way it does in the books. This either means that a) he directed it very poorly b) he doesn't really understand what's rape and what isn't or c) they've decided to turn Jamie into a rapist and the director is talking nonsense.

I don't mind changes from the books but this is totally at odds with the way the character is developing. I read a piece on the AV Club that pointed out this wasn't the first time this has happened either, Danaerys and Drogo's wedding night was far less rapey in the books too. Weird decision making.
Yep and that part is already getting some feminists annoyed, understandably. The director actually said it wasn't rape, what? :wenger:
 
Yep and that part is already getting some feminists annoyed, understandably. The director actually said it wasn't rape, what? :wenger:

Indeed, the guy who plays Jamie was asked if it was rape too and he said "yes and no". Which isn't right either. Something is either rape or it isn't, it doesn't start out as rape and become consensual later.

Here is GRRM's take on it:

In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey’s death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other’s company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that’s just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime’s POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don’t know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei’s dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression — but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That’s really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing… but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.
 
Indeed, the guy who plays Jamie was asked if it was rape too and he said "yes and no". Which isn't right either. Something is either rape or it isn't, it doesn't start out as rape and become consensual later.

Here is GRRM's take on it:

That's fairly diplomatic and sensible from GRRM especially about the part where it's from Jaime's POV in the books. But there's really no reason why they couldn't have left in a bit of Cersei's dialogue. Just one or two lines of "hurry, do it" like she said in the books, would have totally changed the dynamics of everything. I hope down the line it makes sense why they went this route, because right now it sure as hell doesn't.
 
That's fairly diplomatic and sensible from GRRM especially about the part where it's from Jaime's POV in the books. But there's really no reason why they couldn't have left in a bit of Cersei's dialogue. Just one or two lines of "hurry, do it" like she said in the books, would have totally changed the dynamics of everything. I hope down the line it makes sense why they went this route, because right now it sure as hell doesn't.

Here's what the director said about it:

What was talked about was that it was not consensual as it began, but Jaime and Cersei, their entire sexual relationship has been based on and interwoven with risk. And Jaime is very much ready to have sex with her because he hasn’t made love to her since he got back, and she’s sort of cajoled into it, and it is consensual. Ultimately, it was meant to be consensual.

The consensual part of it was that she wraps her legs around him, and she’s holding on to the table, clearly not to escape but to get some grounding in what’s going on. And also, the other thing that I think is clear before they hit the ground is she starts to make out with him. The big things to us that were so important, and that hopefully were not missed, is that before he rips her undergarment, she’s way into kissing him back. She’s kissing him aplenty.

Looks to me like they accidentally turned Jamie into a rapist, we were all apparently meant to be able to see that it was consensual.
 
I think it's pretty clear from the director and actor's comments that the scene they tried to make and the scene we ended up with are very different. In the books it starts off more than a little bit rapey before Cersei explicitly consents (with some awful dialogue). In the show it seems like they tried to do something similar without using words, and it just didn't come across that way it all. Just rape all the way through.

I don't care about book changes at all, for me it was an awful scene not because it was different from the books, but because I think they just fecked up what they were trying to do.
 
I think it's pretty clear from the director and actor's comments that the scene they tried to make and the scene we ended up with are very different. In the books it starts off more than a little bit rapey before Cersei explicitly consents (with some awful dialogue). In the show it seems like they tried to do something similar without using words, and it just didn't come across that way it all. Just rape all the way through.

I don't care about book changes at all, for me it was an awful scene not because it was different from the books, but because I think they just fecked up what they were trying to do.

Agreed.
 
Here's what the director said about it:


Looks to me like they accidentally turned Jamie into a rapist, we were all apparently meant to be able to see that it was consensual.

:lol:

If they intended it to be more like in the books they truly fecked it up. Not the best credentials for a director having turned one of the characters accidentally into a rapist.

:lol:
 
Dany's storyline really has become a problem. The scene I'm most looking forward to is the one where she announces she's going to stay and rule in Meereen. That's going to go down really well.

:lol:I can just picture them in the other thread already.

"Where are the White Walkers?!!"

"When will she go to Westeros?!"
 
:lol:

If they intended it to be more like in the books they truly fecked it up. Not the best credentials for a director having turned one of the characters accidentally into a rapist.

:lol:

:lol: It's ridiculous how no one picked up on that.
 
Since it seems the writers and directors did not intend this scene to be "rape" it will be intersting to see what they have written Cersei's reaction to be. Is it meant to serve as the breaking point in their relationship or will something else drive Jamie away? Do they still have it planned for him to send Brie off with her new sword to find Sansa, thus trying to keep his word to Cat Stark or will they change that also? If Cersei views it as rape then certainly it undoes the redemption of Jamie, though perhaps the writers thought people would not mind if Cersei got raped (dumb idea on their part if that is what they thought)?
 
:lol:

If they intended it to be more like in the books they truly fecked it up. Not the best credentials for a director having turned one of the characters accidentally into a rapist.

:lol:
:lol: It's ridiculous how no one picked up on that.

Something tells me that defense wouldn't work in court. "Well it started out as rape and she kept saying "no don't" throughout but it sort of looked like she was enjoying it so... Not guilty!"

Such shoddy directing. Good luck convincing people Jaime is a nice guy now. :lol:
 
Something tells me that defense wouldn't work in court. "Well it started out as rape and she kept saying "no don't" throughout but it sort of looked like she was enjoying it so... Not guilty!"

Such shoddy directing. Good luck convincing people Jaime is a nice guy now. :lol:
But they could try saying "well you've slept with your brother on many occasions prior to this"
 
I mean all they had to do is make the scene a bit longer and show that she really wants it as well and the rejection part really is just the little game they are playing every time before the go to work on each other.
 
But they could try saying "well you've slept with your brother on many occasions prior to this"

Exactly, everyone knows it isn't rape if you've already slept with the person before! That makes the guy sleeping with his sister beside the corpse of their dead son seem much less weird. :lol:
 
I mean all they had to do is make the scene a bit longer and show that she really wants it as well and the rejection part really is just the little game they are playing every time before the go to work on each other.

Or have her say something that shows she is enjoying it! Like she does in the damn book!

Of all the changes to make... :lol:
 
They were too busy adding the lines "Why do I have to love a hateful woman?"

I mean seriously what the hell was that?

:lol: That was really bad. All he says in the books to Cersie's jibes are "sweet sister". Terrible writing. I think even the Stannis character is beyond repair now.
 
:lol: That was really bad. All he says in the books to Cersie's jibes are "sweet sister". Terrible writing. I think even the Stannis character is beyond repair now.

It's like they tried to make a scene that would portrait him as the good guy who still loves his sister against his better judgement so they added that stupid line on top of him saying he wouldn't kill his brother. Ironically now the whole scene ended up portraying him like a rapist.

If I had to pick a scene to explain film students how not to construct a scene it would probably be on that list.
 
Here's what the director said about it:


Looks to me like they accidentally turned Jamie into a rapist, we were all apparently meant to be able to see that it was consensual.

This part:
The consensual part of it was that she wraps her legs around him,
Is so laughably wrong that it almost sounds made up :lol:

Again, the question is, what did the change achieve that sticking to the original dialogue would not have. It could still have served as a breaking point just fine. But oh well, chucking it down to a horrible misstep in what has been so far an overall good adaptation.
 
Thanks for posting this.

At this pace, it seems extremely unlikely she's going to get to King's Landing this season, perhaps not even the next season!

Edit: wtf, she's been going the wrong direction :mad:
Those poor bastards :lol:
 
:lol:

Someone should tell those poor bastards that she can't magic her entire army to Westeros. She needs ships and lots of them