I was just talking who had the best claim. But if we leave out Stannis, Shireen, Dany etc.. then we are running thin on heirs. My guess is perhaps one of the Tyrell brothers - Willas and Garlan. But it probably won't come to that. Aegon, presumably has Loras as captive so that's something to think about as well for the Tyrells.
Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?
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I was just talking who had the best claim. But if we leave out Stannis, Shireen, Dany etc.. then we are running thin on heirs. My guess is perhaps one of the Tyrell brothers - Willas and Garlan. But it probably won't come to that. Aegon, presumably has Loras as captive so that's something to think about as well for the Tyrells.
Agree. He's also met Aegon. SO he's the only one in the story who's met all of Dany, Aegon and Jon.
This doesn't make sense. They have no claim at all. I guess if it was peace then the coucil will decide for the next king which would be a very difficult decision. Of course Aegon and Daeneris have better claims than all others, but their family has lost the war.
But there isn't peace, so it will go to those who have the strongest army. And at the moment, Tyrells have the strongest army and have almost total control on KingsLanding. Of course the emergence of Aegon and Daeneris will completely change the situation, but until then, they can do whatever they want.
They don't have any claim, no, but if you remove the traitors from the reckoning then the Tyrells are in a position to crown one of their own as king. There are no heirs left on the Baratheon or the Lannister side. If you are talking purely about who has the claim then it's Myrcella followed by Stannis. Neither Dany nor Aegon have any claim.
But yeah, whoever gets the throne in the end will do so via conquest. Conquerors with dragons don't have a shit about claims.
I think the tyrells will try and get margaery and aegon married. They were targaryan's loyalists originally. And the claim does matter, remember when Robert,Jon and Eddard defeated the targaryans, robert was made the king as he had the best claim despite not being the best ruler.
How not? They throne was usurped. They have better claim than even Robert Baratheon who is long dead.
Myrcella doesn't have any claim for the throne. The only parts of Westeros when woman can claim the throne are Dorne and Pyke - and Targaryans of course, who have laws of their own. So the throne line is Aegon, Daeneris, Tommen (assuming that people don't know that he is a bastard) Stannis. Then of course there are the likes of bastards like Jon Snow and Gendry. This is of course, if people want to go by the law, not by the force.
Tyrells aren't even one of the original kings of seven kingdoms. They were stewards and they got Highgarden only because the true kings were defeated and then they opened the doors of the castle. I guess that Starks and Arryns have better claim then them.
Of course, with the current situation, the law doesn't matter and it is the law of the strongest. Which means that Tyrells can do what they want. Until Danny comes and then she can do what she wants.
This could easily happen. Most likely though this can result on an another Targaryan civil war between Danny and Aegon. In fact, it would be a great finish if Aegon is fake.
I think it has been mentioned several times on the books that Robert getting the throne because he had Targaryan blood (Baratheons were made from a Targaryan bastard or so) was the justification, not the real cause he got the throne. He got the throne because he started th rebellation (It was called Robert's, not Jon's or Eddard's rebellion) and he wanted the throne. Jon wasn't interested for it, while Eddard was interested even less. This also makes sense considering that Viserion was alive and he had a much better claim for the throne than a Baratheon.
Who is viserion? Cant remember him. I think its very likely aegon is a fake as otherwise Jon wont be as significant. You cant really have two male kings co-existing.
I agree that it might be justification but every cause needs a justifcation, no matter how false. Look at the excuses america has used in the past to invade countries. You need something that the masses will get behind which is what robert used.
Robert won the throne by right of conquest, like Aegon 1 did when he overthrew all the different kings. Doing so he established the Baratheon reign. It's however hinted that Robert based his claim on his Targaryen blood (although it obviously wasn't and he only did it to appease the Targaryen loyalists) which would mean he was only 2nd in line to the throne after Viserys. And considering Viserys never became king, it's implied he was passed over. If a council had been called then Robert would have still prevailed given that he had the backing of 4 of the seven kingdoms. So, however you look at it Robert was the rightful king and accepted by the majority. Dany wasn't even born when Robert was crowned so she has no claim.
Myrcella does have a claim. It's stated repeatedly that a daughter always comes any uncles but comes after brothers. That's how Sansa had a claim to Winterfell. The Arryns have had a female head as well, not just dorne. The Baratheon house began with a female head as well. Bear Island has a female head. The last female Targaryen who wanted the crown was fed to the kings dragon
To be honest, Robert and Ned had plenty of justification without needing to invent any.
Not correct, actually. The Iron Throne goes by agnatic-cognatic (or male-preference) primogeniture. Women can inherit if there are no other male heirs. Additionally, those male heirs have to be descendants, so as akash says someone's brother doesn't inherit before the daughter. But it also means that if the eldest son dies before inheriting, and he himself had a son, then that son is first in succession, before both any sons or daughters of the original title-holder.
They did, to start the rebellion but not to declare themselves kings.
iirc the rebellion did not began with that intent, it just ended up that way (with Tywin's help). They had the choice between Viserys (1st in line) and Robert (2nd in line) and they chose Robert.
Jon is a bastard so he doesn't have any claim. I also think that they role will be different, Jon is AA who will lead humans in the war against the others, Aegon may become the king.
Viserios is Daneris' deceased brother.
You're right, my mistake.
They never had that choice. By that time, the law didn't matter. Lannisters hold the KingsLanding (and became loyal to Robert because otherwise they would got defeated by Robert/Ned/Arryn/Tully joint forces), Robert had defeated Rhaegar while Eddard and Stannis defeated Tyrells.
If they had gone by the law, then of course Viserios would have become the king, but no-one (except Prince Oberyn Martell) was interested to go by the law. With Ned and Jon not interested on the throne, the throne went to Robert.
Anyway, now the line of throne should be: Aegon - Daeneris - Tommen - Myrcella - Stannis - Shireen.
On another note, just imagine Tyrells killing Tommen and marrying Margery with Aegon who proclaims himself king. Imagine that he isn't the real Aegon and so dies somehow. Margery = the kiss of death, marrying four kings and all of them getting killed after some time.
Of course they had a choice. Had they wanted to they could have just gone for Viserys and ruled in his name. Going by the law Aegon 5 (or his father before him) would never have become king so the Targaryens only followed the law whenit suited them. Robert was closer in the line of succession than Aegon 5 was. The only claim Aegon or Dany have is that the Targaryens once ruled but by that yardstick you could have all the regions proclaiming themselves as king because they once ruled before Aegon usurped.
How they had a choice when Robert had Baratheons, Starks, Lannisters, Arryns and Tullys behind him while all Targaryan loyalists (Martells and Tyrells) were completely defeated while Viserios's brother and father were killed. Who could have given the throne to Viserios? Do you think that Robert would have accepted it? What power has a council compared to the joint armies of those I mentioned.
When Aegon 5 was chosen, the kingdom was on peace. His brother' son was a baby so he couldn't have become a king (or maybe he could but the kingdom would have been ruled for 15 years by a regent, which was very unpractical) while his other brother Aemon refused the throne and joint the Nightwatch. Aegon 5 there was the obvious choice. He was the third in line, but the first on line was a baby and the second on line refused the throne. The title 'unlikely' was because he was the fourth son, while his dad was also the fourth son. But that doesn't mean much when his dad became the king.
Here there were two choices, choose Viserion as king and leave the kingdom be ruled for ten years (or a bit less) from a regent. This would have been completely unacceptable from Robert and his 'friends'. Or choose Robert and feck off the Targaryans which considering the power Robert had was the obvious choice. And finally, Robert wasn't chosen from a council, he took the throne by conquest. Legit as long as he has the power, but on the moment where a Targaryan comes with power, the legitimity of his throne would become null and then it would be again who is stronger. We also know that the smallfolk loves the Targaryan which is the reason why Robert ordered Dany's death. Because he knew that Dany has a better claim than him. His power came from his alliance with Starks, Arryns, Lannisters and Tullys but now that we are talking about 'his' son, that alliance doesn't exist anymore. In fact now those houses are in open war with each others (except the Arryn house which is neutral).
Look at how Maekar became king. He had an elder brother who could have ruled and the brother had children.
You said it yourself. Robert based his reign on his Targaryen blood (even if it was in actual fact a conquest) and the fact that he was 2nd in line. Is there any precedence at for people who have been bypassed once (Viserys) in the line of succession staking a claim after that? I can't think of any. Dany could have only derived the crown from Viserys, who never became king. Dany's only claim to the throne now is her dragons and her military power. Legally and without bloodshed, she's not going to get the throne.
If the kids of Cersei all die, then the thrown is wide open since none of the Lannisters are technically in line to get the throne. Cersei might have some claim. So essentially it becomes a power play with whoever can get the most backing and the biggest and best army.
Not when he was chosen king. A lot of Targaryan died during those days. His big brother was killed from him during a tourney (an accident). Some died during the Blackfyre rebellation (was it called the war of the dragons).
When Dany was born, the war wasn't still over, which means that she had a better claim than Robert. It meant nothing though, Robert became the king because of his power, not because of his blood.
I don't think that she's going to get the throne anyway, but legally she is second on line (or first, depending on Aegon's story). The legality of throne succesion doesn't matter that much though after Robert's rebellion.
Exactly. The same thing happened after Robert's rebellion.
Maekar had 3 older brothers. He wasn't the first in line either when he descended the throne.
Dany was born after Robert had already been crowned.
The legality doesn't matter but Tommen is the current king (and completely legally). If he dies, then how on earth does Dany have any legal claim? You cannot un-crown a king (not in Westeros anyway). You can only get rid of him through power.
I hope Dany dies and someone else (Stannis) rides Drogon though admittedly that's not very likely.
I am not sure about that. On the Dunk and Egg series a few of his brothers / his brother' sons died. Baelor was killed form him during a tourney. Baelor's children and Daeron died from sickness, while his last brother Aerys had a natural death. This means that when he was crowned he was the next in line.
Tommen isn't a completely legal king, because Robert should never become the king. He become the king by power. Dany has legal claim because the throne was stolen from her brother.
Dany will likely die, but on the last book. Together with Jon, she is the main protagonist of the story, though there is still time for her.
Dareon had 4 sons. Baelor died (or was killed depending on your interpretation), Aerys ruled and Rhaegal. Rhaegal had children as well but he was bypassed and Maekar became king.
The problem with that thinking is that Aegon 1 only became king through power (dragons). He had no legal claim to rule over the kingdoms. So none of the Targaryens were legally kings.
He united the seven kingdoms though (well 6 of them, Dorne was united later), so he became the first king of Westeros. Until then the kingdoms weren't united and they even fought each other, but with Aegon 1 they finally became a kingdom.
I don't know if Maekar and Aerys had sons (I don't think that this has been mentioned ever on Dunk and Egg/ASOIAF books) while Rhaegal sons died too. At least from Maekar's wiki it seems that he was next in line when his last brother died.
Talking all this nonsense about who is legally or rightfully the king, remember there is no divince right. So if you can take the crown and get others to acknowldege you and your decendants right to rule, then you are the king.
Not because they wanted to, they were forced to. Same as Roberts Rebellion basically.
Aerys had no children (I am sure it says that in D&E). Rhaegal came after Aerys, then his children and then Maekar. Aegon 5 became king only when the infants were passed over and his brother refused.
I'd go along with that reasoning.
Were they?
If Aerys had no children, then after him the next in line was his brother Maekar. I don't know if Rhaegal had children, but if he had, they should have come before Aerys. If they were passed over there, then the throne has been lost for them. Also, I think that much depended on how powerful they were, considering that the kingdom was on a civil war with some Targaryan bastards and some Targaryans went on that side.
On Aegon's case, there were definitely a few other people who had better claim than him (his brothers' sons) but they were babies while Aemon refused the throne. But for Maekar, I don't think that this was the case.
here some issues with the series I have.
1) No STDs. Tremendous amount of whoring going on, nobody seems to have an STD.
2) All there armies marching around and none of the diseases are plaguing them. Read a little history and half of the army in these types of situations was always shitting themself it seems. Now they do have this plague in Mereen, but wasn't that first used as a weapon and that is how it got to epidemic proportions?
3) Why doesn't at least one of Cersei's and Jamie's kids look like this
or this
I mean we all have heard about what inbredding does, so why are the Lannisters immune? You can't really take Joffrey's behavior as some sort of mutation, he was just a piece of shit.
But I might be nitpicking.
1) No STDs. Tremendous amount of whoring going on, nobody seems to have an STD.
2) All there armies marching around and none of the diseases are plaguing them. Read a little history and half of the army in these types of situations was always shitting themself it seems. Now they do have this plague in Mereen, but wasn't that first used as a weapon and that is how it got to epidemic proportions?
3) Why doesn't at least one of Cersei's and Jamie's kids look like this
I mean we all have heard about what inbredding does, so why are the Lannisters immune? You can't really take Joffrey's behavior as some sort of mutation, he was just a piece of shit.
But I might be nitpicking.
They do, Merrett Frey caught the "pox" from a some whore. I presume the finer whores from Littlefinger's establishment get tested somehow and so theres no issues there.
iirc The only kingdom who voluntarily submitted were the North and even they did when they were faced with insurmountable odds and dragons. The rest were defeated and conquered.
If Wiki is right, then Baelor was the eldest (he and his sons died). Aerys came next (had no children). Rhaegal should have come next (he had twins). Then Maekar.
here some issues with the series I have.
1) No STDs. Tremendous amount of whoring going on, nobody seems to have an STD.
2) All there armies marching around and none of the diseases are plaguing them. Read a little history and half of the army in these types of situations was always shitting themself it seems. Now they do have this plague in Mereen, but wasn't that first used as a weapon and that is how it got to epidemic proportions?
3) Why doesn't at least one of Cersei's and Jamie's kids look like this
or this
I mean we all have heard about what inbredding does, so why are the Lannisters immune? You can't really take Joffrey's behavior as some sort of mutation, he was just a piece of shit.
But I might be nitpicking.
1. Maekar's son Daeron did from a std.
3. Fantasy/
Also as far as I am aware not all inbred kids look like Luis Suarez, it's a high proportion but it's not unrealistic to say they would like some form of donkeys.
God bless the Maesters.
yeah there is mention of a few guys here or there, but not as rampant as one might expect.
here some issues with the series I have.
1) No STDs. Tremendous amount of whoring going on, nobody seems to have an STD.
2) All there armies marching around and none of the diseases are plaguing them. Read a little history and half of the army in these types of situations was always shitting themself it seems. Now they do have this plague in Mereen, but wasn't that first used as a weapon and that is how it got to epidemic proportions?
3) Why doesn't at least one of Cersei's and Jamie's kids look like this
or this
I mean we all have heard about what inbredding does, so why are the Lannisters immune? You can't really take Joffrey's behavior as some sort of mutation, he was just a piece of shit.
But I might be nitpicking.
Pale Mare?
here some issues with the series I have.
3) Why doesn't at least one of Cersei's and Jamie's kids look like this
or this
I mean we all have heard about what inbredding does, so why are the Lannisters immune? You can't really take Joffrey's behavior as some sort of mutation, he was just a piece of shit.
But I might be nitpicking.
Inbreeding doesn't automatically mean that you end up looking retarded or whatever. It significantly (and I mean hugely) increases the odds of the offspring having a horrible recessive genetic disorder, but that doesn't mean every child born from inbreeding will do so. Some will be perfectly normal children.
What characters can we see surviving the finale of the books?
For me, not many except Bran (in some kind of bittersweet, tree-dwelling state - so not really alive), Rickon, Cersei (locked away in some insignificant manner in Casterley Rock) and possibly Aegon.
I reckon all the other major characters will kick it at some point or another. Hodor included
For me, not many except Bran (in some kind of bittersweet, tree-dwelling state - so not really alive), Rickon, Cersei (locked away in some insignificant manner in Casterley Rock) and possibly Aegon.
I reckon all the other major characters will kick it at some point or another. Hodor included
Rickon to have been warging with Shaggydog and come back and do something
Bran to become a new tree man and/or end up warging one of the dragons
Arya to become an assassin and end up killing one or more major characters
Jon to die doing something noble, possibly being named as a true Stark at some point post-humously
Stannis to get killed in the next book
Tyrion to become part of Dany's entourage
Dany to win the Iron Throne and fight off the white walkers
Aegon to get killed because of some immaturity
Cersei to get killed by either Arya or Jamie
Bran to become a new tree man and/or end up warging one of the dragons
Arya to become an assassin and end up killing one or more major characters
Jon to die doing something noble, possibly being named as a true Stark at some point post-humously
Stannis to get killed in the next book
Tyrion to become part of Dany's entourage
Dany to win the Iron Throne and fight off the white walkers
Aegon to get killed because of some immaturity
Cersei to get killed by either Arya or Jamie
Might do some more later if I can be arsed.
Rickon to be Lord of Winterfell.
Bran Stays North of the Wall forever.
Arya goes to the Nights Watch before eventually joining her brother in Winterfell.
Sansa becomes Lady of the Eyrie.
Tyrion facilitates the meeting of the 3 dragon riders - Aegon, Dany and Jon.
The three of them combine to defeat the whitewalkers.
Jon stays on the wall and remains Lord commander.
Aegon becomes king with Ariane as the Queen.
Stannis settles for Storms End.
Tyrion gets the Rock.
Cersie gets killed by Jaime who joins Catelyn.
Iron Islands is ruled by Asha.
Dany dies.
Bran Stays North of the Wall forever.
Arya goes to the Nights Watch before eventually joining her brother in Winterfell.
Sansa becomes Lady of the Eyrie.
Tyrion facilitates the meeting of the 3 dragon riders - Aegon, Dany and Jon.
The three of them combine to defeat the whitewalkers.
Jon stays on the wall and remains Lord commander.
Aegon becomes king with Ariane as the Queen.
Stannis settles for Storms End.
Tyrion gets the Rock.
Cersie gets killed by Jaime who joins Catelyn.
Iron Islands is ruled by Asha.
Dany dies.
Almost identical to my predictions. Differences:
Aegon marries Sansa instead of Ariane
Snow dies together with Dany
Snow dies together with Dany
Surely we're not spoilering predictions in this thread. That's basically all we're talking about, that and the show.
Wibble went off on one about predictions in the TV thread, I just wasn't sure if that applied here.