Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?

niMic said:
Littlefinger is full of shit.
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What, in your opinion, do you think he wants to do with Sansa?

akash02 said:
They've largely stuck to the books though. The changes they have made have been fairly small.
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They're not small. Small is when you skip a dialogue or change a scene or subtly manipulate one or two character arcs. The changes may not have been huge, but they're too many to be called small. To list a few:

- Margery Tyrell's arc is more developed,
- Tyrion is made to look more honourable/compassionate/concerned,
- Tywin's portrayed as too all powerful,
- Dany looks lost too many times, she was stronger in the books,
- the Arya-Tywin meeting was unnecessary,
- I have no idea who Theoden's ex-whore and Littlefinger's recent employee (the one who Joffrey commands to beat the other whore in S02) is,
- Theoden's never had so much confidence in the books,
- Joffrey is portrayed as too cruel (even by his standards),
- the gay scenes were just disguisting,
- Sansa looks mentally stronger than in the series,
- Ser Dontos's character is just a farce, such a giveaway,
- Reek was not as emphatically portrayed,
- Snow never sees a White Walker take the baby
- he is also favored too much by Mormont
- I've missed many more

Now most of them might be unintentional, but some of them aren't, and it might end up as bad as the last couple if Harry Potter movies.(for those who don't know, they deviated from the book in small unnecessary ways and fecked the whole series up)

sullydnl said:
.

Even if you're being really careful they'll start inferring things from your attitudes and comments that they wouldn't otherwise. You can piss them off while saying nothing a non-book reader wouldn't say anyway.
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Me: The Hound's role is interesting.
Them Witch Hunters: huh? He serves Joffrey, he's EVIL!
Me: No, not really, if you observe him closely, you'll realize his allegiance is to himself, and that his major characteristic is hatred for his brother. He's got no interest in 'loyalty' actually. He helps out Sansa a couple of times, remember?
Them Witch Hunters:He's talking sense, he must have read the books! Ban him!
Me: But I didn't mention anything from the books, I just made observations from the TV series!
TWH: Liar! Traitor! Thread-destroyer! Book-reader! We'll have your bloody head!
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
Me: The Hound's role is interesting.
Them Witch Hunters: huh? He serves Joffrey, he's EVIL!
Me: No, not really, if you observe him closely, you'll realize his allegiance is to himself, and that his major characteristic is hatred for his brother. He's got no interest in 'loyalty' actually. He helps out Sansa a couple of times, remember?
Them Witch Hunters:He's talking sense, he must have read the books! Ban him!
Me: But I didn't mention anything from the books, I just made observations from the TV series!
TWH: Liar! Traitor! Thread-destroyer! Book-reader! We'll have your bloody head!
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Ha, pretty much. Even saying "I think this season will be the best yet" can irritate them, never mind discussing character motivation. They read way too much into everything book readers say.

Gandalf Greyhame said:
They're not small. Small is when you skip a dialogue or change a scene or subtly manipulate one or two character arcs. The changes may not have been huge, but they're too many to be called small. To list a few:

- Margery Tyrell's arc is more developed,
- Tyrion is made to look more honourable/compassionate/concerned,
- Tywin's portrayed as too all powerful,
- Dany looks lost too many times, she was stronger in the books,
- the Arya-Tywin meeting was unnecessary,
- I have no idea who Theoden's ex-whore and Littlefinger's recent employee (the one who Joffrey commands to beat the other whore in S02) is,
- Theoden's never had so much confidence in the books,
- Joffrey is portrayed as too cruel (even by his standards),
- the gay scenes were just disguisting,
- Sansa looks mentally stronger than in the series,
- Ser Dontos's character is just a farce, such a giveaway,
- Reek was not as emphatically portrayed,
- Snow never sees a White Walker take the baby
- he is also favored too much by Mormont
- I've missed many more

Now most of them might be unintentional, but some of them aren't, and it might end up as bad as the last couple if Harry Potter movies.(for those who don't know, they deviated from the book in small unnecessary ways and fecked the whole series up)
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That butterfly effect will always be a problem when you're adapting an incomplete series I guess. They really need the license to make major changes in order to draw the best possible TV show from the source, I think. You just have to hope the combination of GRRM's input and their own writing talent will be enough to stop them writing themselves into a cul de sac.

FWIW I don't think it'll be quite as big a problem as in HP. HP didn't have the same scope as this series and was much more linear, which meant they didn't really have enough room to manouver once their problems became clear. I think GOT will be more similar to the Lord of the Rings movies in that they'll have enough material to make massive changes and still stay faithfull to the broad outline of the story.

Plus, personally, the changes from the books are the bits I enjoy the most in the TV show. If I wanted a repeat of the book I'd just read it again. I like that the TV show can still surprise me. For example, I'd say the way Robb's wife died in the TV show even shocked book readers with how vicious it was. That kind of change is worth the risk imo.
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
Me: The Hound's role is interesting.
Them Witch Hunters: huh? He serves Joffrey, he's EVIL!
Me: No, not really, if you observe him closely, you'll realize his allegiance is to himself, and that his major characteristic is hatred for his brother. He's got no interest in 'loyalty' actually. He helps out Sansa a couple of times, remember?
Them Witch Hunters:He's talking sense, he must have read the books! Ban him!
Me: But I didn't mention anything from the books, I just made observations from the TV series!
TWH: Liar! Traitor! Thread-destroyer! Book-reader! We'll have your bloody head!
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Don't be daft, they copped that you read the books because ... you read the books. Obviously it's something you said in there that made them realize that. If anything they're the clever ones and you're the dumb one for not being able to make it look like you didn't.
 
JustAFan said:
Might still have been his head nobody has seem Robert strong without his helmet not heard him talk nor seen him eat or drink
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Yeah Mr. Martin is good at leaving a few potentials in his books. I think I need closure now. Come on get the book out :)
 
Best we can expect is sometime next year. Probably around the end of the year. He's probably around half way finished I reckon.
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
They're not small. Small is when you skip a dialogue or change a scene or subtly manipulate one or two character arcs. The changes may not have been huge, but they're too many to be called small. To list a few:

- Margery Tyrell's arc is more developed,
- Tyrion is made to look more honourable/compassionate/concerned,
- Tywin's portrayed as too all powerful,
- Dany looks lost too many times, she was stronger in the books,
- the Arya-Tywin meeting was unnecessary,
- I have no idea who Theoden's ex-whore and Littlefinger's recent employee (the one who Joffrey commands to beat the other whore in S02) is,
- Theoden's never had so much confidence in the books,
- Joffrey is portrayed as too cruel (even by his standards),
- the gay scenes were just disguisting,
- Sansa looks mentally stronger than in the series,
- Ser Dontos's character is just a farce, such a giveaway,
- Reek was not as emphatically portrayed,
- Snow never sees a White Walker take the baby
- he is also favored too much by Mormont
- I've missed many more

Now most of them might be unintentional, but some of them aren't, and it might end up as bad as the last couple if Harry Potter movies.(for those who don't know, they deviated from the book in small unnecessary ways and fecked the whole series up)
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Now, I really do hate changes when it comes to adaptations but it's unrealistic to expect everything to remain the same especially in a series with as big a scope as this one. As long as the changes are not completely unnecessary I can ignore them. And by changes I was mainly referring to the plot rather than the characterizations. I don't think you can say the Arya-Tywin meeting was unnecessary. They were both at Harrenhall at the same time so it made sense to combine their scenes while furthering the plot at the same time. Jon learns about the baby-sacrifice at Crasters, so again it doesn't overly bother me that they show Jon seeing the actual deed. The gay relationship was lightly implied in the books so yeah that didn't bother me either.

I agree with some of the characterizations though. Sansa is woefully naive in the books, that does not come through in the the show. Tyrion's character needd to be a bit darker. Shae's incessant moaning about Tyrion marrying Sansa in the show was annoying and unnecessary. Asha is the last episode of s3 "I am going to the dreadfort to bring back my little brother" was completely out of character and came out of nowhere. They could have kept her timeline as it is or at least kept her in character.

I don't have any issues with Joffrey, Tywin or Theon though. They have added some cruelty to Joffrey but they've also not mentioned incidents like him killing the cat, watching men fight to their death etc.. The message is loud and clear; Joffrey is a cnut. Tywin is very powerful in the books and Theon was always portrayed as very cocky.
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
- the gay scenes were just disguisting,
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You don't like them because they're disgusting or because they aren't shown in the books? Because there is plenty of female nudity in the series that isn't show in the books.

Me: The Hound's role is interesting.
Them Witch Hunters: huh? He serves Joffrey, he's EVIL!
Me: No, not really, if you observe him closely, you'll realize his allegiance is to himself, and that his major characteristic is hatred for his brother. He's got no interest in 'loyalty' actually. He helps out Sansa a couple of times, remember?
Them Witch Hunters:He's talking sense, he must have read the books! Ban him!
Me: But I didn't mention anything from the books, I just made observations from the TV series!
TWH: Liar! Traitor! Thread-destroyer! Book-reader! We'll have your bloody head!
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This is sort of cringeworthy.
 
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To be honest it's fair enough to not want to be spoiled about anything *cough cough*. The rule should be if you've read the books, you don't post in the TV thread. It avoids any possibility of spoilers or arguments like this starting. It's all too easy to influence the minds of TV watchers, affecting their perception of the show. Just leave them too it.
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
What, in your opinion, do you think he wants to do with Sansa?



They're not small. Small is when you skip a dialogue or change a scene or subtly manipulate one or two character arcs. The changes may not have been huge, but they're too many to be called small. To list a few:

- Margery Tyrell's arc is more developed,
- Tyrion is made to look more honourable/compassionate/concerned,
- Tywin's portrayed as too all powerful,
- Dany looks lost too many times, she was stronger in the books,
- the Arya-Tywin meeting was unnecessary,
- I have no idea who Theoden's ex-whore and Littlefinger's recent employee (the one who Joffrey commands to beat the other whore in S02) is,
- Theoden's never had so much confidence in the books,
- Joffrey is portrayed as too cruel (even by his standards),
- the gay scenes were just disguisting,
- Sansa looks mentally stronger than in the series,
- Ser Dontos's character is just a farce, such a giveaway,
- Reek was not as emphatically portrayed,
- Snow never sees a White Walker take the baby
- he is also favored too much by Mormont
- I've missed many more

Now most of them might be unintentional, but some of them aren't, and it might end up as bad as the last couple if Harry Potter movies.(for those who don't know, they deviated from the book in small unnecessary ways and fecked the whole series up)



Me: The Hound's role is interesting.
Them Witch Hunters: huh? He serves Joffrey, he's EVIL!
Me: No, not really, if you observe him closely, you'll realize his allegiance is to himself, and that his major characteristic is hatred for his brother. He's got no interest in 'loyalty' actually. He helps out Sansa a couple of times, remember?
Them Witch Hunters:He's talking sense, he must have read the books! Ban him!
Me: But I didn't mention anything from the books, I just made observations from the TV series!
TWH: Liar! Traitor! Thread-destroyer! Book-reader! We'll have your bloody head!
Click to expand...

You have to adapt a series of books like that to make for better telly. I think they've done pretty well all things considered. Not sure why you singled out the gay scenes to say they were disgusting but didn't feel the need to mention the incest scene or the numerous murders at the red wedding.
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
What, in your opinion, do you think he wants to do with Sansa?



They're not small. Small is when you skip a dialogue or change a scene or subtly manipulate one or two character arcs. The changes may not have been huge, but they're too many to be called small. To list a few:

- Margery Tyrell's arc is more developed,
- Tyrion is made to look more honourable/compassionate/concerned,
- Tywin's portrayed as too all powerful,
- Dany looks lost too many times, she was stronger in the books,
- the Arya-Tywin meeting was unnecessary,
- I have no idea who Theoden's ex-whore and Littlefinger's recent employee (the one who Joffrey commands to beat the other whore in S02) is,
- Theoden's never had so much confidence in the books,
- Joffrey is portrayed as too cruel (even by his standards),
- the gay scenes were just disguisting,
- Sansa looks mentally stronger than in the series,
- Ser Dontos's character is just a farce, such a giveaway,
- Reek was not as emphatically portrayed,
- Snow never sees a White Walker take the baby
- he is also favored too much by Mormont
- I've missed many more

Now most of them might be unintentional, but some of them aren't, and it might end up as bad as the last couple if Harry Potter movies.(for those who don't know, they deviated from the book in small unnecessary ways and fecked the whole series up)



Me: The Hound's role is interesting.
Them Witch Hunters: huh? He serves Joffrey, he's EVIL!
Me: No, not really, if you observe him closely, you'll realize his allegiance is to himself, and that his major characteristic is hatred for his brother. He's got no interest in 'loyalty' actually. He helps out Sansa a couple of times, remember?
Them Witch Hunters:He's talking sense, he must have read the books! Ban him!
Me: But I didn't mention anything from the books, I just made observations from the TV series!
TWH: Liar! Traitor! Thread-destroyer! Book-reader! We'll have your bloody head!
Click to expand...

'The gay scenes were just disgusting'. That's going to add some credibility to your character isn't it?
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...-Fair-cover-countdown-begins-season-four.html

Sigh, reading this, it's looking like it's almost an impossibility now that the show won't catch up to and surpass the books. The show's creators and HBO seem to want the show to go on for between 7 & 8 seasons, let's say 8, they don't plan on taking a year or any time off- like The Sopranos, to catch up which means they're probably looking to be done by 2018. Looking at GRRM's pace and the fact that TWOW will probably be arriving at 2015 at the earliest, it'd be a miracle if ADOS will be out before 2017(the show usually writes plots for the next season at least a year in advance). Kinda unfortunate tbh :(
 
It's going to be really bizarre watching the show overtake the books (which I'd read first). That's sort of unknown territory.

I'm not sure I'll want to keep watching...
 
I love the show, so dropping it is out of question. But it isn't a situation I fancy. Would have preferred to read the books first, they are around 1001 time better.
 
paceme said:
'The gay scenes were just disgusting'. That's going to add some credibility to your character isn't it?
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niMic said:
You don't like them because they're disgusting or because they aren't shown in the books?
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Stick said:
Not sure why you singled out the gay scenes to say they were disgusting but didn't feel the need to mention the incest scene or the numerous murders at the red wedding.
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Don't put words into my mouth, and please stay in context. In no way does that line imply anything other than what I meant.

I've read an extensive amount of fantasy fiction, and I'd place this series right up there, slightly above The Kingkiller
Chronicles, and slightly below The Wheel of Time. So when I watch the TV Adaptations, I have high expectations. The expectations get spoiled when they deviate from the fecking plot and portray it in a light I'm not entirely comfortable with. Blood and gore? I've played God of War too much to be bothered. Unnecessary nudity? it was annoying, but not objectionable. But gay sex? That's not exactly the category of porn I watch, so it disguists me that one of my favourite TV series is being spoiled by something rudely unexpected I wasn't expecting to find in it. It disguists me the same way those needless Tywin-Arya discussions or the lack of 'mountain' to the Mountain disgusted me.

I've got nothing against LGBT, it's actually sad that sexual freedom still comes with restrictions in many countries. So please keep it within context, and don't run off tangents. There were no snide intents or personal character traits hidden behind that line.
 
Revan said:
I love the show, so dropping it is out of question. But it isn't a situation I fancy. Would have preferred to read the books first, they are around 1001 time better.
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The biggest problem in these kind of situations is that when you choose to watch the screen adaptation first, you'll always have the actors in mind when reading their POVs, and that may really kill the book. You'll read the dialogues in their voice, imagine the scenes with the cast in mind, and any 'deviation' from the TV series will not generate half the interest that a reversed situation might.

Let's hope that even GRRM keeps the cast in mind while writing the books.
 
Gandalf I think, as people have told you countless times already, you need to be careful with how you word things and what you say. Use your head a bit more.
 
Waldner said:
Gandalf I think, as people have told you countless times already, you need to be careful with how you word things and what you say. Use your head a bit more.
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The funny thing is I never mean anything unwanted. My intention in the other thread was to put across a logical discussion as to why I had a different view of a particular character. My intention in the post above was to put across a logical discussion as to why I thought changes in the adaptations spoil the experience.

And yet the majority of my last few posts are all words in self-defence. The rate I'm going, I'll be banned by next weekend. I better get back to the football threads and save us all some unnecessary word-counts.
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
The funny thing is I never mean anything unwanted. My intention in the other thread was to put across a logical discussion as to why I had a different view of a particular character. My intention in the post above was to put across a logical discussion as to why I thought changes in the adaptations spoil the experience.

And yet the majority of my last few posts are all words in self-defence. The rate I'm going, I'll be banned by next weekend. I better get back to the football threads and save us all some unnecessary word-counts.
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A person can have the greatest, most selfless intentions ever but still feck it up with their application.
 
I assume by gay sex you mean the scene when Littlefinger is talking to the two whores also, aye?
 
I'm fairly certain that the show won't finish before the books because I doubt GRRM will tell anyone how the story ends before he has written it down and published. Might be the show will have to pause for a few years or write it's own ending.
 
NoLogo said:
I'm fairly certain that the show won't finish before the books because I doubt GRRM will tell anyone how the story ends before he has written it down and published. Might be the show will have to pause for a few years or write it's own ending.
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I'm fairly sure I remember reading that the writers of the TV show have already got assurance about that and rough plots should GRRM die or fail to write the rest of the books in time or anything else that delays the books.
 
Dargonk said:
I'm fairly sure I remember reading that the writers of the TV show have already got assurance about that and rough plots should GRRM die or fail to write the rest of the books in time or anything else that delays the books.
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Yep.

“Last year we went out to Santa Fe for a week to sit down with [Martin]" Benioff told Vanity Fair, "and just talk through where things are going, because we don’t know if we are going to catch up and where exactly that would be. If you know the ending, then you can lay the groundwork for it. And so we want to know how everything ends. We want to be able to set things up. So we just sat down with him and literally went through every character.”
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I think a main issue about the show running for say, 6-7 seasons is the child actors will be too old for their book counterparts. The actor who plays Bran is going through puberty right before our eyes. Arya/Sansa are also growing up faster than the books. The actress who plays Sansa is absolutely beautiful, I must say.
 
Mel_F said:
I think a main issue about the show running for say, 6-7 seasons is the child actors will be too old for their book counterparts. The actor who plays Bran is going through puberty right before our eyes. Arya/Sansa are also growing up faster than the books. The actress who plays Sansa is absolutely beautiful, I must say.
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I don't think it's going to be much of a problem, simply because it's something they were aware of from the start and have essentially changed already. Nearly all of the actors, including the adult ones, started out several years older than they were in the books. Essentially all of the plot arcs will still work, they just have to change it a little bit. Like, Arya can only pretend to be a boy for so long, which has probably already come and gone. It's not going to result in some big, fundamental change.

I always did think the characters in the books were a little bit too young, myself.
 
Mel_F said:
Yep.

I think a main issue about the show running for say, 6-7 seasons is the child actors will be too old for their book counterparts. The actor who plays Bran is going through puberty right before our eyes. Arya/Sansa are also growing up faster than the books. The actress who plays Sansa is absolutely beautiful, I must say.
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I don't think that it will matter at all. Emilia Clarke started the show as 22 years old, while Daeneris was only 13. The actress who plays Sansa is already 18 years old. Kit Harrington and Richard Madden also started around 10 years older than Jon Snow/Robb Stark.
 
Revan said:
I don't think that it will matter at all. Emilia Clarke started the show as 22 years old, while Daeneris was only 13. The actress who plays Sansa is already 18 years old. Kit Harrington and Richard Madden also started around 10 years older than Jon Snow/Robb Stark.
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Aw hells yeah, boobies! :drool:
 
Cina said:
Nothing gay about boobies Revan, unless you think you're looking at some quality side-boob and it turns out to be a man. *shudder*
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Yes, but Sansa's boobies weren't shown in the books (well sweet Rober saw them when they were going to Gulltown) so if they are shown in the show then likely Gandalf won't be happy.
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
Don't put words into my mouth, and please stay in context. In no way does that line imply anything other than what I meant.

I've read an extensive amount of fantasy fiction, and I'd place this series right up there, slightly above The Kingkiller
Chronicles, and slightly below The Wheel of Time. So when I watch the TV Adaptations, I have high expectations. The expectations get spoiled when they deviate from the fecking plot and portray it in a light I'm not entirely comfortable with. Blood and gore? I've played God of War too much to be bothered. Unnecessary nudity? it was annoying, but not objectionable. But gay sex? That's not exactly the category of porn I watch, so it disguists me that one of my favourite TV series is being spoiled by something rudely unexpected I wasn't expecting to find in it. It disguists me the same way those needless Tywin-Arya discussions or the lack of 'mountain' to the Mountain disgusted me.

I've got nothing against LGBT, it's actually sad that sexual freedom still comes with restrictions in many countries. So please keep it within context, and don't run off tangents. There were no snide intents or personal character traits hidden behind that line.
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Not putting words in your mouth Gandalf just questioning the phrasing you come up with. TV has to deviate somewhat from the books. GRRM didn't write his books to fit neatly into 45 minute slots for television. They are picking what is required to tell the story and get character buy in within a limited time frame and doing a bloody good job of it imho. In relation to the gay sex scenes, GRRM alludes to them all through the book with the Knight of the Flowers and many other characters. Are you really that surprised to see them expanded upon in a TV series? Despite having read the book the Red Wedding absolutely chilled me especially the scene where they killed Rob's wife and the manner in which they did it.
 
Revan said:
Will Gandalf be disgusted this time?
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Unscheduled boobies popping up everywhere? Definitely not. Bring 'em on! :drool:

Stick said:
Despite having read the book the Red Wedding absolutely chilled me especially the scene where they killed Rob's wife and the manner in which they did it.
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It was certainly not a pleasant scene. But like I said, I am kinda desensitized to human violence by this:



Also, a friend had spoiled all the deaths at the RW beforehand.

To be frank, the most unnerving scene, for me, was the part when they first showed Tywin, skinning the stag. Now that was some cold bloody work. (And also a very effective way of portraying Tywin's character)
 
Why are the books so brilliant?

This is not standard fantasy. There as been very little magic involved so far. The closest any other piece of work comes GRRM's style is probably Joe Abercrombie's First Law Trilogy, and even that has a wizard as one of its POVs. The standard elements are all missing - 5 books into the series, we don't even know who the protagonists are, the setting is woefully limited, the theme morbidly dark, the characters we love end up dead, and there is not even one place of peace in all seven kingdoms where we could find solace from. Reading the books (or watching the TV series) actually seems masochistic at times.

Then why do we do it?

I've had only two explanations so far, and they're not convincing enough.

One, never before have characters had such depth in any series. There are literally scores of characters having active character arcs. You could choose any of them to scrutinize, and each one would be justified in all their actions in accordance with their arcs. You just cannot find any inconsistency at all, and that doesn't usually happen in other works - usually there are always flaws. GRRM's characters are almost real.

Two, the Game of Thrones is being played well. Whether it is because of the sheer number of characters, or the varying no. of 'sides' you can choose in battle, it is all very intricately woven. A complex web of plot threads, but each time there's one strand pulled, the others move in perfect tandem. It is almost like poetry, the way the links work.
 
I'll probably stop watching the show when it gets ahead of the books. I expect there will be be plots from Winds of Winter in season 5 so hopefully the book is out before then.
 
I'll definitely keep on watching. I like reading books more than one time, and I enjoy the show enough to not be too bothered by being spoiled. Obviously I would still really prefer to have the books come first.
 
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