Ser Gregor is just as despicable as Joffrey in the books, but for some reason he's barely even been in the TV Show so far, which means his fight with the Viper won't have as big an impact.
Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?
- Thread starter Massive Spanner
- Start date
Yeah plus the actor who's now playing him looks about as threatening as a puppy. He's just really tall.
Is Robb really that popular? I certainly don't read the TV thread here, but he's not that popular elsewhere, I mean, the Red Wedding will still be epic, but I don't the audience is going to be as upset as when Ned died, not even close. I think Tyrion, Jon and Daenerys are the big 3, with Jamie becoming very popular too. They've probably pushed it being those 4 on purpose really, considering they are going to be around for the long haul. Arya too. Mind you the show has no bad characters, so it's hard to judge anyway, just about whos around most I guess.
I don't really think he sucks, just find him hugely boring. But yeah, Joffrey dying is going to break me while everyone else is going to cheer it.
I don't really think he sucks, just find him hugely boring. But yeah, Joffrey dying is going to break me while everyone else is going to cheer it.
Evil characters: The Mountain, Cersei, Joffrey, Ramsay, and probably Euron though we don't know for sure yet.
I'm really looking forward to seeing Euron though. He's an interesting character. As for the Mountain, he's seen in the books more often but much of what makes him terrifying is his reputation. You hear about all the things he's done and see the evidence but rarely see him doing it. It builds up the character as notoriously evil. I think in the books he's more threatening and scary than in the show but they don't seem to have tried as much to mention him in the Brotherhood without Banners scenes.
I'm really looking forward to seeing Euron though. He's an interesting character. As for the Mountain, he's seen in the books more often but much of what makes him terrifying is his reputation. You hear about all the things he's done and see the evidence but rarely see him doing it. It builds up the character as notoriously evil. I think in the books he's more threatening and scary than in the show but they don't seem to have tried as much to mention him in the Brotherhood without Banners scenes.
I think reception to Joffrey's death will be a bit mixed. Especially considering it's not immediately clear who did it, and many will hope for a more gruesome end for him. That said it should happen in the middle/towards the beginning of season 4 so it'll be a shock.
Is Cersei really that evil though(at least in relation to the others listed)? I'm not defending her as I she's one of the characters who'll make me pissed if she survives till the end, but looking at a bit of her backstory, you do kind of understand a bit of why she's the way she is right now.
She's just completely bonkers and mad with power.
I'm looking forward to how she'll react after the whole naked walk/public humiliation. Can't imagine she'll change dramatically, might be a bit more evil and ruthless now that she thinks she has nothing to lose.
I dunno, I had some sympathy for her at first as a lot of what she did was her trying to protect her kids. She's grown increasingly unhinged as the series has gone on though, plus the implication that she killed the friend that was with her when she heard the prophecy about her future indicates she wasn't exactly nice to begin with. She and Jaime started in roughly the same place in terms of good/evil but her character has been in a downward spiral even as Jaime redeems himself. I suspect she'll continue to become more and more unhinged until eventually she does something/ threatens to do something so bad Jamie kills her.
For me, Ramsay Snow is the most evil character in the series (the books that is.) I'm very interested to see what the show does with him.
Oh man, you called him bastard. He doesn't like it.
It's not immediate? We still don't know it for sure. Of course that the most likely scenario is that the Tyrells did it with some help from Littlefinger and using Sansa as a tool, but it's more speculation.
Definitely not a smart move on my part...
She's a selfish, vain woman who's killed numerous people(Jon Arryn, Robert, Eddard, bastard children, etc) to keep her incestuous relationship and bastards a secret so she can hold onto power. She doesn't have the sense of duty to her father or house that her brothers at least initially have. Her only concern is herself and proving that she's just as capable as her father despite not being close.
The only reason she loves Jaime is because he's her twin and looks/acts so much like she does. She abused Tyrion as an infant and killed her best friend. She has her own reasons, but she's still evil.
Catelyn Stark faced similar issues(not marrying the man she expected, he didn't truly love her, Jon Snow, her children/husband dying) but didn't go completely off the deep end until she was resurrected.
I didn't realise there were any other theories.
Littlefinger definitely did it and the Tyrells, particularly Olenna, probably helped or plotted.
She didn't killed Arryn. Arryn's wife killed him in direction by Baelish. She didn't have any idea that Joffrey would kill Ned. She's pretty evil but not blame her more killings than she did.
She didn't killed Arryn. Arryn's wife killed him in direction by Baelish. She didn't have any idea that Joffrey would kill Ned. She's pretty evil but not blame her more killings than she did.
Littlefinger = mastermind of the killing
Sansa had in her hair those crystals (which was given to her by LF and were bought in one of the free cities) which held the poison. She didn't know anything about the plot though
Queen of Thorne got the crystals from Sansa
Tyrion served as a distraction in a quarrel between him and Joff. LF advised Joff to get the dwarfs cause they will provoke Tyrion, and when he is provoked he will speak back. Also, he will get the blame, which mean that LF will have one less important player to think about in the game of thrones. He didn't know the plot, of course.
Lord Garlan or probably Margaery herself poisoned Joffrey. Margaery is unlikely cause all parties eyes were on king and the queen. But Garlan could have done unnoticed. Both know the plot.
That's mean that Littlefinger, Queen of Thorne, Maegaery and Garlan did the killing. Sansa and Tyrion served as tools, thought they didn't know about it.
Why?
Tyrells knew that Joff was a monster (for that they became friendly with Sansa to be reassured about Joff cause they probably didn't trust 100% LF). With Joffrey being dead, Margaery will marry Tommen, a kindly young guy, whom she can manipulate easily. Also, Tommen cannot feck Margaery for a few years, so in case things won't go right for Lannisters, Tyrells can claim about the incest and have a divorce. With Margaery's marriage being unconsumed (unlike is she would marry Joff), and Tyrells having the largest army on the kingdom, they can still make a royal marriage for Margaery. Also, knowing Joffrey and knowing Loras's love for Margaery, it would be very likely that there would be another round of kingslaying.
Littlefinger would get a distraction to smuggle Sansa outside of Kings Landing, would set out of the scene both Joffrey and Tyrion being removed and would make a very unpredicted move for his enemies (cause he was one of the person who benefited more from Joffrey's reign). In long run this was a good move, destabilized entirely the kingdom.
Varys very likely knew, cause he knew everything. But this move could have also benefit him in long run for his own plot of making 'Aegon' king. Tywin could have probably know too (from Varys) but chose to not act, cause he didn't want another mad king.
It seems likely to me that it was Olenna who initiated the plot rather than Littlefinger.
Sorry, Pycelle knew Arryn was poisoned and said/did nothing. I was wrong.
She framed Ned and put him in the position to be executed, which her awful parenting of Joffrey ensured would happen. The punishment for the crime she accused and had him arrested for was death. Expecting anything else from Joffrey was her own stupidity. Also, as regent, she could have stopped it. She's still culpable for his death.
She framed Ned and put him in the position to be executed, which her awful parenting of Joffrey ensured would happen. The punishment for the crime she accused and had him arrested for was death. Expecting anything else from Joffrey was her own stupidity. Also, as regent, she could have stopped it. She's still culpable for his death.
I explained shorty in the above post about it and strongly believe it. LF is probably after Baelish the best mastermind in Westeros and very likely the best person who plays the game of thrones. Pretty sure that when he met Tyrells for the join of the forces, he started thinking about Joffrey's death. Olenna is a smart woman and had all the right motives and did a lot of organization but LF was the brain behind it.
Don't agree. She had the intention of sending him to wall or keeping him hostage for the North's loyalty. Joffrey acted unpredictable and then she couldn't do nothing about it. Technically she could have overruled the order, but then there would have been a lot of other implications. A poor management but her of course, but she never wanted it.
... he is Baelish.
Varys is the best manipulator in the show, he pretty much starts the whole war without anyone even figuring him out.
Yep, I know that but I dunno how I have wrote Baelish instead of Varys.
Agree about Varys, though I have yet to understand his motives.
Why did Starks lost half of the army in the last episode (after Robb beheaded that bannerman of him)? If I recall correctly from the books, only about 2000 soldiers deserted after it, and Robb had about 20000. It would be foolish if a bannerman of him would have half of the army on his side. Didn't like that.
I'd say the only characters who are truly bad are Joffrey, Ser Gregor, Walder Frey, Roose Bolton and Ramsey Bolton.
There are characters who are more bad than good - Tywin, Cersei, Theon Greyjoy - they're very flawed, but have a bit of a 'well, you could say...' argument behind them.
There are characters who are more good than bad - Ned, Dany, Robb, Jon, Sam, Beric Dondarrion. They might have a slight flaw, but on the whole they're pretty good.
There are some characters who are very mixed - Jaime, The Hound, Tyrion, Stannis, Mance, Jorah Mormont.
Any characters who are all good? Possibly only Brienne, Bran and Arya.
That's just my opinion, anyway.
There are characters who are more bad than good - Tywin, Cersei, Theon Greyjoy - they're very flawed, but have a bit of a 'well, you could say...' argument behind them.
There are characters who are more good than bad - Ned, Dany, Robb, Jon, Sam, Beric Dondarrion. They might have a slight flaw, but on the whole they're pretty good.
There are some characters who are very mixed - Jaime, The Hound, Tyrion, Stannis, Mance, Jorah Mormont.
Any characters who are all good? Possibly only Brienne, Bran and Arya.
That's just my opinion, anyway.
Arya who has specifically ordered people to be killed?
Only really evil characters like Chiswyck and Weese! (I could have included them in my list of 'all bad' characters, but they're too minor)
Arya who has specifically ordered people to be killed?
And who had killed people, including kids.
Anyway, I think that the point of the books (and probably it's greatest strength) is that people are usually not bad and good, they are pretty much grey.
We can say that Bran and Jon Snow are good people though. They haven't done anything to give me conclusion that they aren't good (especially Jon). Of course we can add in this category almost all other kids like Rickon and Joffrey's siblings but it is better to don't count them cause kids are usually good and kind.
On the other side we can say that Gregor Clegane and the Bolton bastard are evil people. They do bad things only for the sake of doing it. And they enjoy doing those things unlike the others. Euron comes pretty much in this category but at-least he has some motives.
Tywin, Frey and Lord Bolton do bad things but they have motives for it and I don't think that they enjoy doing that. Joffrey is an uneducated arrogant kid who suddenly has a lot of power, but we can argue that he is sadist. Cersei thinks that she is more intelligent than she is and that makes her do a lot of bad things. Jaime started looking bad, but then made a revelation (after lived some times in the real world) and now is one of the most non-evil characters. Tyrion is absolutely non-evil too. Littlefinger seems to be probably the most selfish person there.
Stannis, Ned and Rob are pretty much man of honor though Stannis seems a bit mental. They seem to do what is right, not what is good. Daeneris is a bit mental too but not that bad person.
Pretty much like I said in the beginning there are only a few persons who are really good ones and only a few who are really bad ones. Even Joffrey - the one I hate most - is not just another evil one, it is a lot more complex.
Finally, I think that the best way to watch/read this is to not even try to divide characters in good and evil one, because really there isn't such a thing not there, not in real life. That is one of the reason why I absolutely love this
book/TV show. I have seen that in the TV Show thread, people are making this mistake and are dividing them in those 2 categories, with Starks being the good ones while the Lannisters being the bad guys. Too simplistic for this set of novels and this TV Show.
Jon did force Gilly to give up her baby though, necessary but hardly "good".
That pales in comparison to any of the stuff Tywin, Cersei and Roose Bolton have done and none of them are mentally deranged like Ramsay and Joffrey.
Cersei is pretty fecking deranged, she's an absolute lunatic, and gets worse as the book goes on. The reason Joffrey is why he is, is her.
Yeah I was going to say she is getting deranged as she goes along. But even then I don't think she enjoys the suffering of others as Joffrey and Ramsay do.
I wouldn't say she is the sole reason why Joffrey is the way he is. She definitely plays a part but being the spawn of incest is also a big factor.
I wouldn't say she is the sole reason why Joffrey is the way he is. She definitely plays a part but being the spawn of incest is also a big factor.
So, Gendry replaces Edric Storm. Strange alteration. I wonder if it suggests that Gendry's future may not be that important in the books.
And potentially Coldhands next episode...
And potentially Coldhands next episode...
So, Gendry replaces Edric Storm. Strange alteration. I wonder if it suggests that Gendry's future may not be that important in the books.
And potentially Coldhands next episode...
He only needs to be "edric" until Davos saves him, then he can wander back until he's gendry again.
It'll be a bit awkward when he goes back to the brotherhood though.
Especially since he's there when Brienne is captured.
I assume it's just a way for them to keep the character in the show and not have to introduce anyone new whilst the audience waits two years to see him again.
The Theon stuff is brutal, bleurgh.
Also, they're doing a great job with the Queen of Thorns, "sword swallower"
The Theon stuff is brutal, bleurgh.
Also, they're doing a great job with the Queen of Thorns, "sword swallower"
I am not liking these pointless changes in the TV show. First merging Loras with Willas, now merging Gendry with Edric. Blah!
Sadly they are necessary because one of the biggest complaints about last season from people who haven't read the book, was the amount of characters and figuring out who is who. I'm not surprised they've taken shortcuts and liberties to avoid adding new characters.
Most likely that is the reason. I am being a bit selfish, but for me (and very likely others who have read the books) this is not right.
It was interesting the conversation between Tywin and Queen of Thorne. It looks like Loras doesn't have any brother, while in books he has Willas and Garlan. It would be interesting to see how they implement Joffrey's death. I bet that Garlan took a part on it, now probably Loras would take his role.
It was interesting the conversation between Tywin and Queen of Thorne. It looks like Loras doesn't have any brother, while in books he has Willas and Garlan. It would be interesting to see how they implement Joffrey's death. I bet that Garlan took a part on it, now probably Loras would take his role.