Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?

Once again the much changed and erratic writing of the show leaves me curiously satisfied in terms of how it does or doesn't spoil the books.

We see Cersei & Jaime die together in each other's arms, yet I still have no idea what will happen in the books. It could be there's a fake-out end to Jaime redemption arc in the books (he ultimately accepts that this is who he is despite previous attempts to change) or it could be that the TV writers have just deviated from the predicted Jaime-kills-Cersei end. I can't tell what's bad writing and what's subversive writing anymore.

I think the only thing that has really been spoiled by this season so far is thay Dany definitely breaks bad at some point? By the end we'll know who ends up on the throne too. Nearly everything else could end up being totally different though.
 
AgentP said:
Would be fantastice if GRRM can give the story the ending that it deserves. Why can't all writers be like Brandon Sanderson and churn out a book every year!
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Because then the books will be shit.

We’ve predicted another Dance of Dragons for years though, so sub in fAegon for Cersei and that’ll probably be the arc in the books.
 
sullydnl said:
Once again the much changed and erratic writing of the show leaves me curiously satisfied in terms of how it does or doesn't spoil the books.

We see Cersei & Jaime die together in each other's arms, yet I still have no idea what will happen in the books. It could be there's a fake-out end to Jaime redemption arc in the books (he ultimately accepts that this is who he is despite previous attempts to change) or it could be that the TV writers have just deviated from the predicted Jaime-kills-Cersei end. I can't tell what's bad writing and what's subversive writing anymore.

I think the only thing that has really been spoiled by this season so far is thay Dany definitely breaks bad at some point? By the end we'll know who ends up on the throne too. Nearly everything else could end up being totally different though.
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I'm not even convinced by that to be honest. Her going nuts could be the kind of thing he builds up to then swerves. I don't think she will end up on the Irone Throne in the books, but I'm not convinced she'll go fully mental either. It feels like it could be a twist they went with because they wanted to shock with the way it's been handled and rushed in there.

Although I do agree about not feeling nearly as bad about spoilers now, there's so many things that make no sense that I doubt I'll even remember most of this stuff when the books come out.

I've read the show spoilers and I won't say anything, but I'm not convinced we are going to know who ends up on the throne in the books either.
 
Art Vandelay said:
I'm not even convinced by that to be honest. Her going nuts could be the kind of thing he builds up to then swerves. I don't think she will end up on the Irone Throne in the books, but I'm not convinced she'll go fully mental either. It feels like it could be a twist they went with because they wanted to shock with the way it's been handled and rushed in there.

Although I do agree about not feeling nearly as bad about spoilers now, there's so many things that make no sense that I doubt I'll even remember most of this stuff when the books come out.

I've read the show spoilers and I won't say anything, but I'm not convinced we are going to know who ends up on the throne in the books either.
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I think that's partly why I have a more benign view of this season than others seem to. Where other people are invested in the show and dissapointed with how it's turning out, I'm just watching it as spectacular fan fiction.

If I end up not even knowing who will end up on the throne then that's even better. In some ways that's the ideal adaptation from a book reader POV.
 
sullydnl said:
I think that's partly why I have a more benign view of this season than others seem to. Where other people are invested in the show and dissapointed with how it's turning out, I'm just watching it as spectacular fan fiction.

If I end up not even knowing who will end up on the throne then that's even better. In some ways that's the ideal adaptation from a book reader POV.
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I'm the same. For a season I was very annoyed with it. Then I went through a spell of being annoyed at GRRM for letting this spoil his books, but now I just accept it as wild illogical fan fiction that ocassionally has moments of greatness. I just enjoy the comedy value of the lack of sense now and the ocassional great action scene. Although Peter Dinklage was almost back to being fantastic again in last night's episode.
 
Don't think there will be a satisfactory ending to the books as well, provided George actually gets around to writing it. Makes me appreciate WoT even more where all of nonsensical dreams from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd books are fulfilled and we are talking about a 14 book mega fiction. I've always been OK with the spoilers aspect but the show is basically asking us to completely abandon any rational thinking.
 
sullydnl said:
Once again the much changed and erratic writing of the show leaves me curiously satisfied in terms of how it does or doesn't spoil the books.

We see Cersei & Jaime die together in each other's arms, yet I still have no idea what will happen in the books. It could be there's a fake-out end to Jaime redemption arc in the books (he ultimately accepts that this is who he is despite previous attempts to change) or it could be that the TV writers have just deviated from the predicted Jaime-kills-Cersei end. I can't tell what's bad writing and what's subversive writing anymore.

I think the only thing that has really been spoiled by this season so far is thay Dany definitely breaks bad at some point? By the end we'll know who ends up on the throne too. Nearly everything else could end up being totally different though.
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Yes - Dany goes mad and is the main villain of the series is probably the biggest spoiler. The Others being eventually defeated at great loss and it being people who put the final torch to King's Landing is probably true.

I think the Dany thing will work a lot better with more time invested in making it work in the books. It's a really interesting if Ned's mercy in preventing the assassination of Dany causes KL to burn when he despised and insisted on punishment for Jaime who's morality actually saved the city.

I expect the Jaime/Cersei plots to be quite different due to the additional major players in the book (Stoneheart, Dorne, f/Aegon etc.)
 
Got to the Kingsmoot in AFFC last night. No words for how badly the show messed this up:



 
For what it's worth, both of you are on the money with the criticism of Dany's heel turn. Even with two books left, I'm not sure there will be sufficient explanation for Dany's descent into madness.
 
fishfingers15 said:
For what it's worth, both of you are on the money with the criticism of Dany's heel turn. Even with two books left, I'm not sure there will be sufficient explanation for Dany's descent into madness.
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Yeah, the problem is they way over did it.

Having her snap, head to the red keep and letting it more be about collateral damage would have made much more sense. At least we could still partially blame Cersei, and it could still have the Arya part almost exactly the same.

Hopefully in the books, it will be that way. Cersei's plan should have way more effect and Dany still realises the people will blame her no matter what.
 
fishfingers15 said:
For what it's worth, both of you are on the money with the criticism of Dany's heel turn. Even with two books left, I'm not sure there will be sufficient explanation for Dany's descent into madness.
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The books frequently use the dragons as a metaphor for Dany's aggression, rage and violence - 'Fire and Blood'. The last chapter (ADWD Daenerys X) was her reminding herself that she is the blood of the dragon and is creating a motivation for her to leave Slaver's Bay and hinting that she may be slightly losing it.

I think it is slowly going to progress with her Dragons growing.
 
I don't think I've seen enough in the books to suggest the descent into madness is definitely coming. I think she will definitely doubt her sanity at times, but I dunno I just think this is something they may have latched onto for shock value. They seem to be taking pleasure in giving the worst pay offs they can think of to character arcs.
 
Art Vandelay said:
I don't think I've seen enough in the books to suggest the descent into madness is definitely coming. I think she will definitely doubt her sanity at times, but I dunno I just think this is something they may have latched onto for shock value. They seem to be taking pleasure in giving the worst pay offs they can think of to character arcs.
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I think, particularly in the case or Cersei/Jaime, they are also deliberately trying to go with unexpected endings. Thing is, in that particular case, the obvious one (Jaime killing her to stop her pulling a mad king) would likely have been the only satisfying one.

Instead we get a love story and bricks. It's all a bit meh.
 
Art Vandelay said:
I don't think I've seen enough in the books to suggest the descent into madness is definitely coming. I think she will definitely doubt her sanity at times, but I dunno I just think this is something they may have latched onto for shock value. They seem to be taking pleasure in giving the worst pay offs they can think of to character arcs.
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I'm starting to believe the reason George is not finishing the books is he's seen all his super awesome foreshadowing easily figured out by our army of nerds. He's seen the show carry out a hamfisted version of his story and realized that any ending he writes will be trash as he's written himself into a muddle. I think mad queen is almost certainly something he gave D&D in his story outline, they've just tackled it in a really shit way.
 
padr81 said:
I'm starting to believe the reason George is not finishing the books is he's seen all his super awesome foreshadowing easily figured out by our army of nerds. He's seen the show carry out a hamfisted version of his story and realized that any ending he writes will be trash as he's written himself into a muddle. I think mad queen is almost certainly something he gave D&D in his story outline, they've just tackled it in a really shit way.
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It's not being fat and lazy then?

And yeah, she undoubtedly goes crazy. Maybe this whole thing has been about woman hating after all :(
 
Art Vandelay said:
I don't think I've seen enough in the books to suggest the descent into madness is definitely coming. I think she will definitely doubt her sanity at times, but I dunno I just think this is something they may have latched onto for shock value. They seem to be taking pleasure in giving the worst pay offs they can think of to character arcs.
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Is it supposed to be madness? It looked like a logical decision to undermine Jons claim to the throne by attempting to rule through fear.
 
Drainy said:
The books frequently use the dragons as a metaphor for Dany's aggression, rage and violence - 'Fire and Blood'. The last chapter (ADWD Daenerys X) was her reminding herself that she is the blood of the dragon and is creating a motivation for her to leave Slaver's Bay and hinting that she may be slightly losing it.

I think it is slowly going to progress with her Dragons growing.
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Fair point but unless there is a genuine reason to 'snap', it's tough to justify killing children. There have been times when she grew exasperated when things don't go her way but even when Drogon tramples people in the fighting pits, she is quick to jump on to the Drogon fully knowing well that she may not be able to control the dragon.

Art Vandelay said:
I don't think I've seen enough in the books to suggest the descent into madness is definitely coming. I think she will definitely doubt her sanity at times, but I dunno I just think this is something they may have latched onto for shock value. They seem to be taking pleasure in giving the worst pay offs they can think of to character arcs.
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padr81 said:
I'm starting to believe the reason George is not finishing the books is he's seen all his super awesome foreshadowing easily figured out by our army of nerds. He's seen the show carry out a hamfisted version of his story and realized that any ending he writes will be trash as he's written himself into a muddle. I think mad queen is almost certainly something he gave D&D in his story outline, they've just tackled it in a really shit way.
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Lot to agree with both these posts.
 
Redlambs said:
It's not being fat and lazy then?

And yeah, she undoubtedly goes crazy. Maybe this whole thing has been about woman hating after all :(
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Maybe it is, I'm fat and lazy and can't write for shit either.
 
sullydnl said:
Once again the much changed and erratic writing of the show leaves me curiously satisfied in terms of how it does or doesn't spoil the books.

We see Cersei & Jaime die together in each other's arms, yet I still have no idea what will happen in the books. It could be there's a fake-out end to Jaime redemption arc in the books (he ultimately accepts that this is who he is despite previous attempts to change) or it could be that the TV writers have just deviated from the predicted Jaime-kills-Cersei end. I can't tell what's bad writing and what's subversive writing anymore.

I think the only thing that has really been spoiled by this season so far is thay Dany definitely breaks bad at some point? By the end we'll know who ends up on the throne too. Nearly everything else could end up being totally different though.
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I agree with this sentiment.

But if I'm being honest? I don't expect the books to ever be finished.
 
Of all the character arcs spoiled, here's another one... I hate what they've done to Brienne of Tarth. Crying for Jaime Lannister like a nobody after all she's been through in the series. feck off
 
The guy that plays Ser Barristan Selmy has said that GRRM has finished books 6 and 7 but agreed with Weiss and Benioff to not publish them until after the TV series was finished. If he's right - and I know it's a big if - we could get an announcement within weeks for the Winds of Winter. Quite frankly anything is better than "they're ready when they're ready" at this point.
 
Reiver said:
The guy that plays Ser Barristan Selmy has said that GRRM has finished books 6 and 7 but agreed with Weiss and Benioff to not publish them until after the TV series was finished. If he's right - and I know it's a big if - we could get an announcement within weeks for the Winds of Winter. Quite frankly anything is better than "they're ready when they're ready" at this point.
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Would make sense as he’d be capitalising on the books while it’s still hot on everyone’s minds. That said, there’s been far too many false dawns on the books and I grew tired of waiting years ago.

If it’s true, bit of a dick move on the book readers.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Of all the character arcs spoiled, here's another one... I hate what they've done to Brienne of Tarth. Crying for Jaime Lannister like a nobody after all she's been through in the series. feck off
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They've destroyed several imo. Tyrion is the one i'm really frustrated about, he's just turned into a plot device to help Daenerys make really poor decisions. He's done nothing constructive since Winds of Winter.
 
fishfingers15 said:
For what it's worth, both of you are on the money with the criticism of Dany's heel turn. Even with two books left, I'm not sure there will be sufficient explanation for Dany's descent into madness.
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It's not what I wanted to see or read for her, but in the end I don't mind as much. What's frustrating for me is that it will be resolved within 2 episodes. Imagine if you would get another season with Daenerys being the main antagonist and the final one. Obviously not sure how the books will/would do it, but if you get the mad queen for a little longer, it could be interesting. Might not be a popular opinion, but I really liked what Emilia Clarke did acting-wise in this episode.
 
DouLou said:
Is it supposed to be madness? It looked like a logical decision to undermine Jons claim to the throne by attempting to rule through fear.
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I honestly gave up on making sense of anything that happens on the show. We could find out she just forgot people don't like being burned by dragon fire. She looked a bit broken by it all.
padr81 said:
I'm starting to believe the reason George is not finishing the books is he's seen all his super awesome foreshadowing easily figured out by our army of nerds. He's seen the show carry out a hamfisted version of his story and realized that any ending he writes will be trash as he's written himself into a muddle. I think mad queen is almost certainly something he gave D&D in his story outline, they've just tackled it in a really shit way.
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You're possibly right and I'm maybe giving GRRM too much credit, but it feels a bit too obvious that she'll turn out like her dad and I think he has something else planned. I wouldn't even be surprised now if she actually dies long before getting anywhere near the throne, but her plot armour in the show protected her. There's such massive leaps in logic now that I'm having trouble accepting most of this stuff ever happening in any form in the books. Plus if they had really planned for her turn from before this season they'd have beat the audience over the head with it. They aren't exactly subtle.
Redlambs said:
I think, particularly in the case or Cersei/Jaime, they are also deliberately trying to go with unexpected endings. Thing is, in that particular case, the obvious one (Jaime killing her to stop her pulling a mad king) would likely have been the only satisfying one.

Instead we get a love story and bricks. It's all a bit meh.
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Have they produced a satisfying conclusion to anything? I can't think of any, it all feels like weird subversion.
 
Art Vandelay said:
I honestly gave up on making sense of anything that happens on the show. We could find out she just forgot people don't like being burned by dragon fire. She looked a bit broken by it all.

You're possibly right and I'm maybe giving GRRM too much credit, but it feels a bit too obvious that she'll turn out like her dad and I think he has something else planned. I wouldn't even be surprised now if she actually dies long before getting anywhere near the throne, but her plot armour in the show protected her. There's such massive leaps in logic now that I'm having trouble accepting most of this stuff ever happening in any form in the books. Plus if they had really planned for her turn from before this season they'd have beat the audience over the head with it. They aren't exactly subtle.

Have they produced a satisfying conclusion to anything? I can't think of any, it all feels like weird subversion.
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Theon had at least a reasonable end. Maybe even Mel, though that fire thing was a bit daft. I guess we can say the Hound too. Olena Tyrell went down well now I think about it.

Not loads though, they've ruined many a character.
 
Redlambs said:
Theon had at least a reasonable end. Maybe even Mel, though that fire thing was a bit daft. I guess we can say the Hound too. Olena Tyrell went down well now I think about it.

Not loads though, they've ruined many a character.
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Oh yeah, I forgot about Theon actually, despite remember Yara running away. Olenna was good too.

Mel I thought was butchered. Turning up from out of nowhere, doing a bit of firey bollocks while Jon was sat nearby on a dragon and giving Arya a speech that reminded her she's Batman before going out and dying. It was a bit pish for me and it felt like she was only there because they remembered they'd forgot to kill her.

I'm trying not to think about The Hound. I barely paid attention last night, but it felt very odd when the big zombie that only follows orders decided to stop following orders so he could go and fight the man he's spent 8 seasons not giving a single feck about. I suppose it was good closure for Sandor, but it felt a bit ham fisted and forced. Although more or less saving Arya was decent redemption for him. Even if she has plot armour so thick the only person that could kill her would be Arya.
 
Art Vandelay said:
Oh yeah, I forgot about Theon actually, despite remember Yara running away. Olenna was good too.

Mel I thought was butchered. Turning up from out of nowhere, doing a bit of firey bollocks while Jon was sat nearby on a dragon and giving Arya a speech that reminded her she's Batman before going out and dying. It was a bit pish for me and it felt like she was only there because they remembered they'd forgot to kill her.

I'm trying not to think about The Hound. I barely paid attention last night, but it felt very odd when the big zombie that only follows orders decided to stop following orders so he could go and fight the man he's spent 8 seasons not giving a single feck about. I suppose it was good closure for Sandor, but it felt a bit ham fisted and forced. Although more or less saving Arya was decent redemption for him. Even if she has plot armour so thick the only person that could kill her would be Arya.
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Yeah I was thinking more about the Arya goodbye tbh.

I didn't catch first time the Mountain's eye changing back to normal, I think that was supposed to mean something of him was left.
 
He just kind of forgot he was a zombie.

I didn't even notice the eye at all. I might actually watch the episode again and pay attention, but I fear that not ending well.
 
Art Vandelay said:
We could find out she just forgot people don't like being burned by dragon fire. She looked a bit broken by it all.

Oh yeah, I forgot about Theon actually, despite remember Yara running away.

He just kind of forgot he was a zombie.
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You're on a roll tonight. My girlfriend thinks I'm mental laughing at the screen while looking at a football forum. 3 lines, all better writing than Series 8.
 
One of the people that wrote the world book with GRRM said Ian McElhinney was told about the books being finished by a fan and there's no truth in it at all.
 
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